50 gallon barrel of alchemist's fire

[fallensavior]

Hypothetically speaking, how much damage do you suppose this would do when ignited, and in what kind of area?

[Sir Chuckles]

I don't believe it explodes, so the are would probably be pretty contained.
As for damage, I'd probably just call in the lava rules. Some might multiple the base damage based on volume, but that would be a little much.

[Gemini476]

Doesn't TNT get +1d6 damage for every doubling of the mass or something like that? Let's extrapolate.

1lb. of Alchemist's Fire does 1d6 damage. One flask is also one pint, from what I can tell.
There are eight pints to the gallon, and four hundred to your barrel.

Doubling goes 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512. Let's be generous and say that it's a 51½ gallon barrel.
That's +9d6, so the initial ignition would do 10d6 damage. I'm pretty sure that they would just burn for 1d6 damage on later turns, but still.

Of course, this is hardly RAW at all.

Oh wait, I misremembered the rules for dynamite. They do +1d6/stick to a maximum of 10d6. They're on page 146 of the DMG if you wonder.

[molten_dragon]

Hypothetically speaking, how much damage do you suppose this would do when ignited, and in what kind of area?

By raw? 400d6 to the target it hits when it goes off, and 400 to every other creature within 5 feet. Plus 400 DC 15 reflex saves to avoid catching on fire. Assuming you have a way to set it off all at once.

Logically, it would probably cap at 20d6, no more, since I can't imagine it doing any more damage than being fully immersed in lava. As far as area goes, I'd say maybe every doubling in size adds 5 feet to the area?

[AvatarVecna]

Firstly, you might be interested in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?160363-55-Gal-barrel-of-alchemist-s-fire).

Secondly, the description of alchemist's fire is similar (in effect) to napalm. In the real world, napalm is often extremely deadly when employed, almost always resulting in a target's death. Since it's a weapon of war, and would be used against soldiers, let's compare this to a Warrior 1 getting hit by alchemist's fire.

In-game, getting hit by alchemist's fire (a ranged touch attack) does 1d6 fire damage on the first turn and an additional 1d6 the next turn unless the target took a full-round to try and extinguish the flames via a DC 15 Relfex save, not easy to make for your average Warrior 1. So let's assume they took 2d6 total damage. That's 7 HP on average, assuming 1d8+Con mod HP. Even if Con is 12 (generous for a 1st level NPC, even a Warrior), that's an average of 5.5 HP, assuming you don't use that rule of maximizing the first hit die. That rule, while useful for game purposes, doesn't mimic the real world very well. That means that your average Warrior 1 will die when hit with alchemist's fire.

Napalm's pretty comparable: it doesn't kill immediately, and is extremely painful. Few survive it. All in all, it makes for a good comparison. According to this (http://vietnamawbb.weebly.com/napalm-agent-orange.html), one napalm bomb could devastate a 2500 square yard area. This is equivalent to square 150 ft to a side, or a circle with a radius of about 85 ft. Unfortunately, I have been unable to determine the napalm volume of a napalm bomb such as this, and am thus unable to determine how big an area a comparible "alchemist's fire bomb" should have.

Hopefully, I've been helpful.

[Anxe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_77_bomb

Current bomb used by the US military. 110 gallons and everything I'm reading compares the Mark 77 to the Mark 47 which was used in Vietnam. So half the area that Vecna found.

[ericgrau]

1d6 because that's how much damage catching fire does period. :smalltongue:

It's not 1d6 or unlimited d6. I mean total immersion in lava is 20d6 and who knows if that's hotter or colder than alchemist's fire. Probably hotter so the immersion damage for alchemist's fire should be less, but not necessarily. If you want something simple then 20d6 could be the hard cap.

Alchemist's fire does need air to ignite so a larger amount wouldn't explode, it would only burn longer like any other fuel based oxygen requiring fire. What happens when you pour a barrel of burning oil on someone? Not boom, but sizzle. Whatever you choose for the above, any unused damage dice could be delayed into future rounds to represent the fire burning longer with more fuel. Though a lot of that is going to spill on the surrounding ground and not burn anyone. Assuming it's a thick goopy substance that sets down 1/8" thick I roughly estimate a 15 foot radius for the pool.

TL;DR: You don't get huge explosion damage, you get a large pool of gradually burning alchemical liquid for the next few minutes. At most it might do 20d6 if it's total immersion, but it's uncertain if it even does that much damage.

[fallensavior]

It seems like 5d6 in a 10ft radius + splash damage in additional 5' would be pretty reasonable.

Now what if I put a glyph of warding inside it?

[The Grue]

Now what if I put a glyph of warding inside it?

...then you have a glyph of warding effect centred on whatever inside the pool you cast it on.

What were you expecting would happen?

[fallensavior]

...then you have a glyph of warding effect centred on whatever inside the pool you cast it on.

What were you expecting would happen?

I was expecting an Earth-shattering ka-boom.

[The Grue]

I was expecting an Earth-shattering ka-boom.

Why would a glyph of warding inside a pool of alchemist's fire cause such an effect?

[fallensavior]

Glyphs of warding explode.

Explosions break barrels. (I didn't say anything about a pool.)

Besides, Marvin insists.

[The Grue]

Glyphs of warding explode.

Explosions break barrels. (I didn't say anything about a pool.)

Besides, Marvin insists.

I think you need to re-read Glyph of Warding.


Blast Glyph: A blast glyph deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d8) to the intruder and to all within 5 feet of him or her. This damage is acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic (caster's choice, made at time of casting). Each creature affected can attempt a Reflex save to take half damage. Spell resistance applies against this effect.

There is no explosion. A creature that enters the area of the glyph takes damage, with a Reflex save to take half. Only creatures are affected; objects don't even trigger the spell, let alone take damage.

[fallensavior]

I think you need to re-read Glyph of Warding.



There is no explosion. A creature that enters the area of the glyph takes damage, with a Reflex save to take half. Only creatures are affected; objects don't even trigger the spell, let alone take damage.

Not sure if I buy that. An AoE is an AoE.

Regardless, that does not stop me from using the version that casts a spell when triggered.

[The Grue]

Not sure if I buy that. An AoE is an AoE.

Fine, but it doesn't affect objects. If it does(which would require a very liberal reading of the spell), then anything and everything carried by the creature triggering it is also subject to the blast.


Regardless, that does not stop me from using the version that casts a spell when triggered.

Not at all, but then why do you need the alchemist's fire?

[fallensavior]

Fine, but it doesn't affect objects. If it does(which would require a very liberal reading of the spell), then anything and everything carried by the creature triggering it is also subject to the blast.



Not at all, but then why do you need the alchemist's fire?

I don't have the phb in front of me, but it's obvious that the glyph is only triggered by creatures. The "all within 5 feet" does not specify creatures and has to be a blast radius. (It's called a blast glyph after all)

Unless you are insinuating that the spell shoots up to nine small "blasts" of energy, but only if that many creatures are standing there?

I'm setting it up as a trap. The glyph is there to trigger, ignite, and disperse the alchemist's fire.

[RhoTheWanderer]

Secondly, the description of alchemist's fire is similar (in effect) to napalm.
Sorry to nit-pick, and I don't consider myself an expert on the subject, but wouldn't white phosphorus be a better comparison? I could be wrong, but I believe it's a fairly sticky liquid that bursts into flame upon contact with the air, and it's extremely difficult to get off. (And doesn't napalm require a source of ignition?)

Anyhow, I second the notion that the damage should probably just cap out at full immersion in lava and that any excess damage should be converted into a duration of continuing damage. That way you have the initial severe flash burns that would likely result from such a thing as well as the continued burning covered.

As far as detonating it, I'd probably just homebrew up some pressure-plate/alarm-triggered trap that damages the barrel (...or just put a mysterious lock of some kind on it. You know some clever rogue or idiot barbarian [read as: any remotely curious pc] is going to go and try to open it somehow).
Basically, for detonating purposes, the sunder rules are your friends because alchemist's fire detonates on contact with air. And if it's in a barrel, the only ways I can think of to expose it to air would be to:

A: Open the barrel (by somebody pulling off the cover or by a hatch/spout/ect. ;perhaps triggered by a wire [trip wire or a wire that a character pulls]).

B: Break the barrel (see trap or idiot barbarian above. Also, you could figure out how much weight would be needed in order to have a creature break it by simply stepping on it. Or you could figure out what height you would have to drop it from to deal enough falling damage to break it. Or combine the two [ie 5ft wide and X ft deep pit trap with barrel of alchemist's fire at the bottom]! In general, get creative and go to town).

C: Create air within the barrel (ie use a spell or something. I'm not sure of any spells that would work though atm), in which case you should factor in the amount of damage needed to break the barrel and subtract that from the damage the fire will do to anything in its radius.

And speaking of radius, anywhere from a 10-20ft radius sounds about right to me. You could probably tack on the rules for being near lava for any area beyond that.

[RhoTheWanderer]

I'm setting it up as a trap. The glyph is there to trigger, ignite, and disperse the alchemist's fire.
If you're setting it up as a trap, then just place the barrel between the party and a damage dealing trap (such as a rather mundane trap involving a weapon attacking from the wall. That way there are no arguments of "But that only affects objects!":smalltongue:) and have the poor barrel sacrafice itself by taking the damage from it for the party.
Or have a bunch of orcs drop it on the party.
Or drop the party on the barrel.
Or drop the party on a bunch of orcs carrying the barrel.
Or drop a bunch of orcs onto the party which happens to be standing on wooden floor boards resting on a barrel of alchemist's fire.
Or get the party into a burning alchemist's shop, have the fire damage the barrel and break it open at some story appropriate point (Hey, dog! I heard you like fire, so I got you fire to trigger your fire while you're already getting burned by fire!:smallcool:).

[The Grue]

I don't have the phb in front of me, but it's obvious that the glyph is only triggered by creatures. The "all within 5 feet" does not specify creatures and has to be a blast radius. (It's called a blast glyph after all)

First, "all within 5 feet" is not "all within 5 feet of the glyph", it's "all within 5 feet of the triggering character".

As I said previously, if it's your reading that objects are affected by the blast damage...


...then anything and everything carried by the creature triggering it is also subject to the blast.

Have fun rolling damage for every arrow, every weapon, every item of clothing and every piece of gold that character is carrying.

[fallensavior]

If you're setting it up as a trap, then just place the barrel between the party and a damage dealing trap (such as a rather mundane trap involving a weapon attacking from the wall. That way there are no arguments of "But that only affects objects!":smalltongue:) and have the poor barrel sacrafice itself by taking the damage from it for the party.
Or have a bunch of orcs drop it on the party.
Or drop the party on the barrel.
Or drop the party on a bunch of orcs carrying the barrel.
Or drop a bunch of orcs onto the party which happens to be standing on wooden floor boards resting on a barrel of alchemist's fire.
Or get the party into a burning alchemist's shop, have the fire damage the barrel and break it open at some story appropriate point (Hey, dog! I heard you like fire, so I got you fire to trigger your fire while you're already getting burned by fire!:smallcool:).

My original plan was to shoot the barrel with flaming arrows or regular flasks of alchemist's fire, but my current understanding is that the barrel won't explode on its own even if struck. The barrel would get punctured, leak, ignite, collapse, and then the fire would flood the floor. I would probably treat that as a low grade lava that extinguishes after several minutes.

Also, I have to work with kobolds, so no barrel chucking. Though it would be interesting as catapult payload. I might use that in a different campaign.


(...or just put a mysterious lock of some kind on it. You know some clever rogue or idiot barbarian [read as: any remotely curious pc] is going to go and try to open it somehow)

This is probably the best idea. Maybe some explosive runes along with it.

[TETanglebrooke]

Have a disguised barrel tied to the ceiling and gets loosed by physical trigger X. Or throw it on the end of the pendulum in a room with a fire proof monster and make everyone keep rolling saves to not get hit by the barrel. Or have an animated coat rack carry it around and tear it apart as a suicide bomber.

[RhoTheWanderer]

1. Yeah, it won't explode, but a single leak would cause the whole thing to go up in flames. Whether it explodes or it spontaneously combusts and leaves charred wood and (effectively) a 20-40ft pool of lava in its wake makes little difference and is probably close enough for all intents and purposes for the player's characters. Not to mention the sudden rush of scalding hot air would probably feel like a mild explosive shockwave. As a side note, might I recommend a fireball trap enhanced by the "exposive spell" metamagic feat from either Complete Arcane or Complete Mage (I forget which) for your future use? Fire AND force damage!

2. There are only two points to having the arrows be on fire: (a) The extra fire damage is necessary in conjunction with adamantine arrows in order to bypass the hardness and hp of the barrel to break it by RAW because you have a rules lawyer in your group. Or (b) you want to make it have an element of overkill to it (Why use a shoe to squash a single ant when I can use an orbiting nuclear-powered uber-laser space weapons platform to kill the same ant?). The overkill really isn't necessary, but you're the dm. If you want to add fiery explosions (and explosive runes) to your fiery explosions, by all means, polymorph yourself into Michael Bay and be pure awesome:smallcool:.

3. Kobolds are generally fluffed as using traps frequently, ingeniously, and creatively. So don't feel too restricted there. Kobolds could very easily be up in a loft, on a ledge, or otherwise located in an elevated position where they could roll a barrel off of said loft/ledge such that it lands on the party. If nothing else, have the party get almost to the top of a ramp/staircase/spiral staircase only to see a giant barrel barreling towards them. With kobolds, in general, get as creative and sadistic as possible with your traps. After all, they're the evil scaly twins of gnomes.

Or if you really want to go "Michael Bay", place the party in a locked room with the barrel. Make sure the floor is covered in flammable material. The barrel is clearly labled "CAUTION...ALCHEMISTS FIRE...50GAL DRUM...MILITARY GRADE"in a language that at least one pc can read (preferably Draconic, but Common works too [and begs the question of who provided it to the kobolds. ADVENTURE HOOK!!!]). Suddenly, a kobold chucks a single (or multiple) flask(s) of alchemist's fire into the room. Have the initial fire slowly spread out towards the barrel. Allow anyone with Craft(alchemy) or Knowledge(arcana) to make a check (probably DC5) to figure out right away what'll happen if the fire engulfs the barrel. Watch as the party tries to (a) escape the room, (b) escape the room while keeping the fire away from the barrel, and/or (c) steal the barrel. If you have clever players, it may prove wise to figure out the value of the barrel ahead of time.

4. If you have any rules lawyer worth his/her salt in your group, and you're sundering the barrel with a trap or letting a pc break it; you may want to commit a good portion of pages 165&166 of the PHB to your memory. I'd use the statistics for the "treasure chest" from Table 9-11 on pg166. For the trap that's attacking the barrel, I'd make sure that any arrow/blade portion of it is made of adamantine to bypass the hardness as well.

[Zirconia]

When I've prepared something like that (usually with Shrink Item), I've;

1. Used a ceramic container, basically a large pot, which should be much easier to shatter than a wooden barrel which is designed to keep contents safe, and

2. For cost reasons, used a 55 gallon barrel of regular oil, with a few Alchemists Fire in their default breakable "grenade-like missile" flasks strapped to the outside. Regular oil does almost as much damage as alchemists fire, usually the trick is lighting it, and Alchemists Fire flasks should work fine for that when they break along with the barrel.

Then have a barrel up in a concealed panel in the ceiling, or on a rope, or something. When the trap is set off, say when the door behind them swings shut to cut off their retreat, down it falls or swings, and just falling should be enough to shatter the thing since it is ceramic and designed to do so. Then announce your back-of-the envelope calculation of 400d6 to your players, and let them talk you down to just a few d6 because they probably got more than one flask's worth on them. What makes this kind of evil is that the normal ways of extinguishing flames on yourself such as rolling on the ground won't work well, since they are in a pool of flame, so it can be a good way to force them into an area they aren't prepared for yet. Bonus points for a crossbow ambush just as they are taking full round actions to extinguish themselves. . . :)