Roleplaying high charisma?

[WarKitty]

So I'm playing a high charisma, low wisdom character. The trouble is my RL stats are sorta the opposite. I can do the low wisdom stuff ok (impulsiveness, a tendency to go off on overdone plans), but the high charisma is my stumbling block. I'm not a natural good speaker or persuasive person, but I want my character to come off that way. How do I play this?

[Kol Korran]

Not sure.... It's usually harder to play high mental stats than lower ones. But a few ideas:
1. Charisma doesn't need to be about social skills. It's mostly about presence and influence. If you do not wish to talk much, then talk little, but describe your character (And ask for the DM to cooperate) as just exuding presence and force of personality- peopel watch him/ her as s/he enter the room. When you talk, you talk little, but your words carry weight. People listen to you. (You cam speak in short sentences, or even one- two words sentences, and play it like they MEAN it. Wise or not.)

2. Similarly, enhance non verbal influence- the way you walk, the way you talk (not what you say, but the way you say it). How you look, how you stare, and all that body language.

3. Alternatively, you can do what one of my players do- When he knows (or suspects) that some social situation is coming up in the next session they prepare a short piece to say (That may be adjusted on the fly). He even tries to do a rehearsal or two by himself to get himself in the mood, and memorize things so not just to read them off paper. You don't need a lot of instances to appear charismatic, just a few memorable ones to create the impression.

4. The same player sometimes prepares a few short sentences/ remarks/ quips to be used at likely situations. For example if you're fighting orcs then perhaps some battle taunts, or perhaps some words of encouragement for a dire situation, or something to say to orcs for a parley or such. I bet you can think on all kids of likely scenarios that may work.

5. Steal. Steal from charismatic leaders in the past. Again, the same character steals from various nation and military leaders speeches and stuff. Thankfully he is the only history buff on the group, so it's not immediately obvious to all.

I hope that helps! :smallsmile:

[Pex]

Geeky, but I find inspiration from a Star Trek "Enterprise" guest character. A very successful Vulcan ambassador is to visit the ship. T'Pol builds her up as a staunch Vulcan and warns the crew to behave as Vulcan as possible. When the ambassador arrives we learn quickly why she is very successful. Upon meeting the crew she behaves Human. She volunteers to shake hands in greeting, the Human custom. She is pleasant. At dinner she engages in jokes. She finds it logical to relate to those around her in their customs and methods. That's what you can do as a high Charisma character. When at a Church, be formal. When at the tavern, be the life of the party. When at the Wizards' Guild, be intellectual. When speaking with the Noble, be gracious. When dealing with orcs, be intimidating.

[Gildedragon]

Be self assured, what you do do with brazen confidence. You are who you are and no one can change that. Start with the assumption that folk will say yes to you (because you are worth it) and go on from there.

[Thrudd]

So I'm playing a high charisma, low wisdom character. The trouble is my RL stats are sorta the opposite. I can do the low wisdom stuff ok (impulsiveness, a tendency to go off on overdone plans), but the high charisma is my stumbling block. I'm not a natural good speaker or persuasive person, but I want my character to come off that way. How do I play this?

Engage in social situations with confidence, and let the dice speak for you if you can't really think of what to say or how to act. "I give the men an inspiring speech about how we're going to overcome fear and conquer our enemies"
"I suavely approach the countess and try to make her enamored of me."
"I politely attempt to convince the lizardmen than we mean them no harm."
"I am friendly and engaging with the merchant and try to talk him down in price."

[Slipperychicken]

"I play to the guard's sense of sympathy to let me pass, claiming I left my papers inside"

"I plead to the watchman that I need to get home and take care of my sister"

"I lure the young woman up to my room with humor and witty wordplay"

"I persistently press the merchant for a lower price, implying that I can haggle with him all day"

"I feign enthusiasm for the cultists' daemonic rites and dogma, insisting that they permit me entry to their mass"

"I convince the merchant to talk about himself, faking interest in his rambling success story and positioning myself to draw his attention away from the counter"

[Duke of Urrel]

Paraphrase what you want to say. Instead of coming up with a snappy insult, a persuasive lie, or a brilliant compliment, simply say that you do and then make the appropriate skill check.

When it gets difficult to imagine how your character can pull off great feats of persuasion, intimidation, deception, or flattery, try to narrate more, impersonate less. Be the narrator, rather than the performer of what your character does, but feel free to use purple prose in your narration. "I polish his ego so much that his head feels full of air." "I flatter her until she can do nothing but smile, blush, or giggle in rapid succession." "That's when I hit them with the classic bait-and-switch con I learned from the thieves' guildmaster."

[RedMage125]

Maybe it's that I've been blessed with players that roleplay well, but I've had luck with this:

Make the roll for the skill check first, and base what your character says on the success rate of your check.

For example, party Diplomancer is trying to convince a Duke (whose family history involves success in a war against hobgoblins), that he needs to lend his aid to the war effort because there's an upcoming incursion of goblins.

*Diplomancer rolls a 15, before modifiers* "I remind the Duke of the legendary exploits of his family, and how it's in his blood to triumph over goblins. This will be a glorious addition to his family's legacy"

*Diplomancer rolls a nat 1* "Well, I was trying to remind him of his family's history, but it sort of came out that I basically said he doesn't measure up to his ancestors"

[WarKitty]

Maybe it's that I've been blessed with players that roleplay well, but I've had luck with this:

Make the roll for the skill check first, and base what your character says on the success rate of your check.

For example, party Diplomancer is trying to convince a Duke (whose family history involves success in a war against hobgoblins), that he needs to lend his aid to the war effort because there's an upcoming incursion of goblins.

*Diplomancer rolls a 15, before modifiers* "I remind the Duke of the legendary exploits of his family, and how it's in his blood to triumph over goblins. This will be a glorious addition to his family's legacy"

*Diplomancer rolls a nat 1* "Well, I was trying to remind him of his family's history, but it sort of came out that I basically said he doesn't measure up to his ancestors"

I find the harder part is roleplaying it well where no check is involved, actually. No dice and modifiers to rely on to look awesome.

[jiriku]

Wisdom: An unwise character does what he wants to do. A wise character does what's best for all concerned, even if it requires him to delay getting what he wants or get out of his comfort zone.

Charisma: A uncharismatic character doesn't care about other people's concerns and isn't afraid to let them know it. A charismatic character is intensely interested in other people and their concerns. Leadership speaker John Maxwell once said something that I'll paraphrase here in D&D terms. A low-Charisma character walks into a crowd and says "Here I am!" A high-Charisma character walks into the same crowd and says "There you are!" To expand on that, a high-Charisma character isn't interested in looking awesome to others. Other people think he's awesome because he's so interested in them!

[Twilightwyrm]

Of all the mental stats, Charisma is perhaps the most broad in what it can represent. Remember that Lichs gain a rather hefty bonus to Charisma, despite being rather hideously ugly and not exactly known for their diplomatic or inspiring nature. It can be menacing, intimidating, composed, or simply commanding in presence. Even exuding an aura of cryptic mystery can represent a high charisma. Depending on what kind of character you are, this can work quite well.

[Aegis013]

Even exuding an aura of cryptic mystery can represent a high charisma. Depending on what kind of character you are, this can work quite well.

Who?
The Sphinx.
Yeah, I've heard of this guy, he's a big crime fighter down east.
What's his power?
He's terribly mysterious.
That's it? His power is that he's mysterious?
He's terribly mysterious, actually.


More on topic, I suggest talking to whoever (as a player) typically acts as party leader. Ask them if it's alright if you have your character use that player's ideas.

[DeadMech]

I've been giving charisma a bit of thought the last few days since I've been working on a character sheet. Specifically one with a low charisma which I don't often do even if it's not an important stat to the build.

Something that keeps returning to my mind when I think about it is this.

People with charisma change the world. People without charisma are changed by the world.

My fire elf wizard I'm making has a similar starting point in life as my fire elf rogue. Each was born to elven parents involved in studying the plane of fire. Both struggled within their childhood communities for being different. But while the rogue had a slight charisma bonus the wizard had a slight charisma penalty.

The wizard followed the profession of her parents probably not only because she was suited to it but because it was easier to do that than to tell her overbearing parents otherwise. The wizard drown her passions and emotions trying to fit in and diminish what made her different and to deny her bullies the satisfaction. She became the trope of the emotionless girl. She also buries herself in books and even when she wants to be included in social events can't force herself to leave her comfort zone. She would retreat to her room or the couch to read a trashy harlequin novel hidden inside of an encyclopedia rather than ask someone to dance with her. When forced to make a choice she does either what the person in front of her wants or what society expects of her rather than what she wants personally. She admires bards for their courage to stand in front of a group of people more than for their musical talent or presence. And if she came across a charisma boosting item or enough wish spells would pursue her long secret desire to become magical fantasy Katy Perry using her spells to create a stage show the world has never seen before.

The rogue on the other hand despite being suited to it rejected her parents profession because they were overbearing. When people teased her she gave as good as she got. If her parents set her up with a cushy position in the local church through their friends she would get thrown out for not agreeing with her superiors. She eventually got tossed out, left for a big city in a warmer climate, and blew though her savings partying only to discover real friends don't care if you are paying their bar tabs or not. She set up with a troupe of street performers and began her rogue career after their caravan wagon was stolen by a group of thugs, sneaking into their hideout and taking it back despite being told not to by her friends. Though a bit less than successfully and ruining her relationship by kinda sorta screwing up and ticking off the local nobility by driving a runaway wagon through their parade. The closest thing to a weakness she had was wisdom though to be honest even if she got more of it she would still be a robin hood who did what she thought was right even when the people around her thought it too dangerous.

Liking who you are and what you do is charisma. Not being liked by others.
Saying what you do, how you do is charisma. Not what you say.
Leading by doing the unpopular is charisma. Not following by doing what is popular.

[Twilightwyrm]

Who?
The Sphinx.
Yeah, I've heard of this guy, he's a big crime fighter down east.
What's his power?
He's terribly mysterious.
That's it? His power is that he's mysterious?
He's terribly mysterious, actually.


More on topic, I suggest talking to whoever (as a player) typically acts as party leader. Ask them if it's alright if you have your character use that player's ideas.

My friend, in the absence of fact, speculation rushes to fill the void. So if "The Sphinx" comes back from a successful adventure with holes in his clothing, and the smell of ozone on his person, people are going to start to talk.

[WarKitty]

My friend, in the absence of fact, speculation rushes to fill the void. So if "The Sphinx" comes back from a successful adventure with holes in his clothing, and the smell of ozone on his person, people are going to start to talk.

Nice.

Though I think I'm bucking most people's expectations by having a female high-charisma bard with a very straight figure...

[Andezzar]

Maybe it's that I've been blessed with players that roleplay well, but I've had luck with this:

Make the roll for the skill check first, and base what your character says on the success rate of your check.

For example, party Diplomancer is trying to convince a Duke (whose family history involves success in a war against hobgoblins), that he needs to lend his aid to the war effort because there's an upcoming incursion of goblins.

*Diplomancer rolls a 15, before modifiers* "I remind the Duke of the legendary exploits of his family, and how it's in his blood to triumph over goblins. This will be a glorious addition to his family's legacy"

*Diplomancer rolls a nat 1* "Well, I was trying to remind him of his family's history, but it sort of came out that I basically said he doesn't measure up to his ancestors"While I generally like the approach to roll first and then describe the actions, I disagree that the rolls before modifiers are relevant. There are no special consequences for rolling a natural 1 or a natural 20 on a skill check. Only the check result is relevant. So in most cases the result does not change much whether the diplomancer rolls a 1 or a 20 once he adds the +50 to the roll. He is just that good.

[Spore]

I have the isolated high charisma as an high opinon of one's self. That's about it. Charismatic people are confident and convincing. They are not beautiful or well-mannered. I know cha-penalty races have a different fluff description (like Dwarves) but I prefer the reduced (magical) presence explanation from the typical "unwashed dwarf" syndrome.

Plus there are many fascinating Hollywood actors that wouldn't get a job as a model if their life depended on it.

[WarKitty]

I have the isolated high charisma as an high opinon of one's self. That's about it. Charismatic people are confident and convincing. They are not beautiful or well-mannered. I know cha-penalty races have a different fluff description (like Dwarves) but I prefer the reduced (magical) presence explanation from the typical "unwashed dwarf" syndrome.

Plus there are many fascinating Hollywood actors that wouldn't get a job as a model if their life depended on it.

Unfortunately that last one seems to apply mostly to men. It's so easy playing a female character who gets her way by being hot (and I admit a bit tempting on the wish fulfillment side of things).

[Duke of Urrel]

Unfortunately that last one seems to apply mostly to men. It's so easy playing a female character who gets her way by being hot (and I admit a bit tempting on the wish fulfillment side of things).

For a more mature female role model, think of Dame Judy Dench in the role of Queen Elizabeth. Or recall Esme Weatherwax from the Discworld series. As Granny W. would tell you, it's all a matter of "headology."

[Andezzar]

Not sure if she ever used her good looks but Esme Weatherwax is not ugly (much to her dismay) and who knows how Mustrum Ridcully became interested in her.

[Spore]

Unfortunately that last one seems to apply mostly to men. It's so easy playing a female character who gets her way by being hot (and I admit a bit tempting on the wish fulfillment side of things).

Did you EVER see those gals without make-up and in non optimal lighting? Most of them look abyssmal.

[Talya]

My friend, in the absence of fact, speculation rushes to fill the void. So if "The Sphinx" comes back from a successful adventure with holes in his clothing, and the smell of ozone on his person, people are going to start to talk.


The Sphinx, huh...
"So, Sphinxster, buddy! How ya been?"
"... don't ever call me that."


For the OP:

I tend to play majorly high charisma characters. While Charisma represents a package of different traits, it CAN partially represent physical appearance to some degree. (I know some people don't like this, but the rules back it up.)

My DM: So, describe your sorceress.

Me: Sublimely confident. She makes people feel wanted and important just by being close to her. People are drawn to her. When she's angry, people are terrified. Everything about her screams pure personality.

My DM: Uh huh. That's it?

Me: And giant, gravity-defying triple-D titties.

My DM: That's more like it. Okay, so the people are practically falling at your feet...

[Flickerdart]

Charisma isn't only about what you say, but how you say it - with the right tone and body language, an unreasonable demand and a sensible order are one and the same. Whatever you do, just pretend that your character does in a more confident way.

[Renen]

Just do what this guy does:
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110906235258/finalfantasy/images/thumb/e/e4/Al-Cid.jpg/500px-Al-Cid.jpg
Always a chick on his hand, swapping them regularly, while pretending he the best thing in the room, and being right about it

[Darth Paul]

As mentioned, describing your character's actions will go a long way. Describing your character making speeches, instead of trying it yourself, also works if you're not a gifted speaker.

Don't just walk into a room; stride. Sometimes you can saunter, if you like.

Don't "say" things; proclaim them.

Direct a keen gaze, instead of just "looking".

You don't have to go overboard with this stuff; in fact, I recommend against doing so, or you might find dice being chucked at your head and so forth. :smallsmile: But a little flavorful description at a dramatic moment can go a long way.

@Renen- is that Fabio with an eye patch?

[Talya]

@Renen- is that Fabio with an eye patch?

That's actually his protective cup. Incredible natural charisma, but tiny little ... well. Yeah.

Thank goodness for Enlarge spells.

[WarKitty]

As mentioned, describing your character's actions will go a long way. Describing your character making speeches, instead of trying it yourself, also works if you're not a gifted speaker.

Don't just walk into a room; stride. Sometimes you can saunter, if you like.

Don't "say" things; proclaim them.

Direct a keen gaze, instead of just "looking".

You don't have to go overboard with this stuff; in fact, I recommend against doing so, or you might find dice being chucked at your head and so forth. :smallsmile: But a little flavorful description at a dramatic moment can go a long way.

@Renen- is that Fabio with an eye patch?

Yeah I guess the problem I have is that's not how the groups I play with tend to work. If you want to talk to someone it's just done by saying exactly what you say, rather than describing the sort of thing you want to say. That and I really want to play a character that speaks first and quickly, but I always end up being the character who does things last because I can't put together sentences quickly enough to play otherwise.

[WarKitty]

The Sphinx, huh...
"So, Sphinxster, buddy! How ya been?"
"... don't ever call me that."


For the OP:

I tend to play majorly high charisma characters. While Charisma represents a package of different traits, it CAN partially represent physical appearance to some degree. (I know some people don't like this, but the rules back it up.)

My DM: So, describe your sorceress.

Me: Sublimely confident. She makes people feel wanted and important just by being close to her. People are drawn to her. When she's angry, people are terrified. Everything about her screams pure personality.

My DM: Uh huh. That's it?

Me: And giant, gravity-defying triple-D titties.

My DM: That's more like it. Okay, so the people are practically falling at your feet...

How I actually picture giant breasts working:

*character walks into magic mart*
Shopkeeper: Hey pretty lady!
Me: Uh-huh. I need an artificer's monocle, a wand of cure light wounds, 2 potions of the same, and a few scrolls of remove curse.
Shopkeeper: You sure you know how to use all that stuff, miss? Magic's tricky!
Me: Yes, I'm sure.
Shopkeeper: Maybe we could work out a deal. I've got a nice "magic sword" to show you in the back...
Me: Just get me my stuff.
Shopkeeper: Aww don't be so uptight, can't a guy talk to a pretty girl? C'mon, I'll give you a nice discount if you're willing to have a little fun in the back room...

[A.A.King]

How I actually picture giant breasts working:

*character walks into magic mart*
Shopkeeper: Hey pretty lady!
Me: Uh-huh. I need an artificer's monocle, a wand of cure light wounds, 2 potions of the same, and a few scrolls of remove curse.
Shopkeeper: You sure you know how to use all that stuff, miss? Magic's tricky!
Me: Yes, I'm sure.
Shopkeeper: Maybe we could work out a deal. I've got a nice "magic sword" to show you in the back...
Me: Just get me my stuff.
Shopkeeper: Aww don't be so uptight, can't a guy talk to a pretty girl? C'mon, I'll give you a nice discount if you're willing to have a little fun in the back room...

The only reason the shopkeeper is like that is because you are trying to buy potions of cure light wounds, nobody buys potions of cure light wounds :P
Other then that, I think it's a pretty well known fact in-universe that their exist people so beautiful that the universe decided to grant them magical powers. The shopkeeper would probably keep that in the back of his mind. I mean who knows? The giant breasted lady who is trying to buy a scroll of "remove curse" might end up casting "Bestow Curse" on him instead.

Back on topic: The best way to appear charismatic (apart from actually being charismatic) is to prepare for situations and to act confident. If you know you're going to finally meet the king during the next session you should write a speech for that. You might even want to write a little speech for the first session, one that you can give when you have to introduce your character. And you might want to have a few possible replies ready to common situations that might occur

But you should also just talk with your DM. Explain that you will do your best to be charismatic and convincing and to be the character you have build but that he should realize that you are in fact not the character you have build. When it isn't going too well and you can't find the right words he should still just pay attention to what you rolled instead of what you said. If you can get him to agree on that then it will already be easier for you because you won't have the extra burden of thinking "If I don't convince the captain of the guard that we are in fact innocent then we will all get hanged". If you just keep trying you will eventually find it easier to say the right things.

[Vaz]

As with everything, it's all in the delivery. You can tell the funniest joke in the world, but if you mess up the delivery, it's not as funny.

Conversely as well, you're not expected to literally "cast" spells, your character does. Sure, roleplay along, and make some wierd noises and funny hand movements, go the whole hog and throw bat poo at the table, but you're not expected to "cast" the spell. Nor is the Barbarian expected to literally behead anything they come across. They simply just say Rage+Power Attack, and roll a dice to see what damage they do.

Conversely, you just need to say "I use a rushed diplomacy action" and roll a dice to see how high your diplomacy check is.

[Alleran]

Be self assured, what you do do with brazen confidence. You are who you are and no one can change that. Start with the assumption that folk will say yes to you (because you are worth it) and go on from there.
A high CHA score is the ability to walk up to a group of women, do your best Zapp Brannigan impression crossed with Johnny Bravo, and have it actually work.

[Andezzar]

That must be triple digits Charisma.

[Coidzor]

How I actually picture giant breasts working:

*character walks into magic mart*
Shopkeeper: Hey pretty lady!
Me: Uh-huh. I need an artificer's monocle, a wand of cure light wounds, 2 potions of the same, and a few scrolls of remove curse.
Shopkeeper: You sure you know how to use all that stuff, miss? Magic's tricky!
Me: Yes, I'm sure.
Shopkeeper: Maybe we could work out a deal. I've got a nice "magic sword" to show you in the back...
Me: Just get me my stuff.
Shopkeeper: Aww don't be so uptight, can't a guy talk to a pretty girl? C'mon, I'll give you a nice discount if you're willing to have a little fun in the back room...

So your DM gets off on sexually harassing PCs? :smallconfused: That's... kinda deplorable.

[WarKitty]

So your DM gets off on sexually harassing PCs? :smallconfused: That's... kinda deplorable.

No, that was a fictional encounter. I was just making a commentary on how people seem to think large breasts should work with charisma, versus how they actually work in real life.

[Talya]

No, that was a fictional encounter. I was just making a commentary on how people seem to think large breasts should work with charisma, versus how they actually work in real life.

Not really, no. Seriously, anyone who doesn't think it's an advantage to be a reasonably attractive woman in modern western society isn't paying attention.

[WarKitty]

Not really, no. Seriously, anyone who doesn't think it's an advantage to be a reasonably attractive woman in modern western society isn't paying attention.

I happen to be a reasonably attractive woman in western society - with a decent sized pair of breasts. I've found plenty of cases where guys happily fawn over you right up until it's time to, you know, actually do any work or otherwise be treated as a competent human being. Unless your main goal in life is to have lots of sex it's really not all that helpful. Oh yeah and enjoy being whistled at/groped/followed by men twice your age. I've paid enough attention to seriously consider getting the stupid things removed!

[Talya]

I happen to be a reasonably attractive woman in western society - with a decent sized pair of breasts.

Me too! Men have some of the same benefits we do if they're attractive, but not all of them. For instance, an attractive woman or an attractive man will cause people in an office meeting to back off and let you speak and deal with your point instead of glossing it over. However, being an attractive man doesn't get police to let you off traffic violations with a warning the way it does for us. Likewise, people are more likely to let you in front of them in line, or give you a discount, or put extra bacon in your cafeteria breakfast, etc. etc. etc.

Yes, there are occasional dolts who spend all their time looking below your eye level. Those people would be useless no matter who they were talking to.

[Cobra_Ikari]

Me too! Men have some of the same benefits we do if they're attractive, but not all of them. For instance, an attractive woman or an attractive man will cause people in an office meeting to back off and let you speak and deal with your point instead of glossing it over. However, being an attractive man doesn't get police to let you off traffic violations with a warning the way it does for us. Likewise, people are more likely to let you in front of them in line, or give you a discount, or put extra bacon in your cafeteria breakfast, etc. etc. etc.

Yes, there are occasional dolts who spend all their time looking below your eye level. Those people would be useless no matter who they were talking to.

...I'm curious as to exactly how many free traffic violations and extra bacons you have to get to balance out with the whole...being sexually harassed and treated as having no value aside from a pretty face...thing.

[Coidzor]

No, that was a fictional encounter. I was just making a commentary on how people seem to think large breasts should work with charisma, versus how they actually work in real life.

But that is what you put down as what you'd expect to actually run into in a game from your presentation. :smallconfused:

Who wants to play real life? This is a game where you can actually have (if you want them for whatever reason) gravity defying breasts and boobplate and armor that would kill you if you ever actually got hit in it and still be an adventurer who shakes down Demon Lords for their lunch money.

And if you don't want breasts with their own anti-gravity generators or want to wear sensible shoes and a decent pair of pants, you can do that too.

[Shining Wrath]

Look at the charisma based skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Use Magic Device.

What they have in common is this: Charisma allows you to modify how your character is viewed by others (in the case of UMD, by a thing). So that's how you play it. Think of how you want to alter others perception of you, state it, and roll.

[jiriku]

As I'm neither a woman nor equipped with breasts, I'm sort of at a loss to how to contribute to where the conversation seems to be going, but I remembered something you might be interested in:

Have you seen the Abraham Lincoln biographical movie that showed a few years back? Several times, people would get upset, angry, or worried, and Lincoln would start to tell a story. His stories usually wandered a bit, but they always had the effect of calming people down and making them feel they could trust and rely on him. That was actually a thing the real-life Lincoln did all the time.

For many years, I roleplayed a character who was a talented diplomat. When a roleplaying encounter would start, she would tell a little story. I'd let it wander a bit, sharing some entertaining or amusing anecdote about tiny ninjas hiding in cups of tea or some gift the local lord had received from his father, making people wonder where she was going with it. After a10-30 seconds she'd bring it home and tie the story into some action that she wanted the NPC to take or an idea she wanted the NPC to believe in. I knew I'd succeeded if I could make the gamemaster smile or if he started roleplaying "in character" the NPC's reaction to my story. I'd nearly always get what I wanted without rolling, or the GM would take any roll that wasn't an obvious bomb as success. The other players would roll their eyes at me when she started into one of her stories, because they knew I was about to get my way... but they couldn't help themselves, they'd listen my the stories too.

The story is great for interrupting the flow of any negative vibe going on, grabbing attention, and drawing people to focus in on you. Illustrating your point with an anecdote is also a much more persuasive way to present an idea, compared to just saying "you should do this". In fact, I'm sure that you see what I did there.

[Talya]

...I'm curious as to exactly how many free traffic violations and extra bacons you have to get to balance out with the whole...being sexually harassed and treated as having no value aside from a pretty face...thing.

I don't generally run into the latter much.

One has to remember that just because the pretty face/butt/boobies are getting noticed, doesn't mean they are harassing you or believe you have no other value. Think of cars. (Car analogies always work.) Two cars may get equal mileage, have equal reliability, cargo space, and power. But one of them is really shiny red and has a "sport package" with pretty wheels. Which one is going to get the most stares?

People are visual. No matter how much we like to pretend appearance doesn't matter, it does. Enjoy it while you got it, because it doesn't last forever.

[WarKitty]

But that is what you put down as what you'd expect to actually run into in a game from your presentation. :smallconfused:

Who wants to play real life? This is a game where you can actually have (if you want them for whatever reason) gravity defying breasts and boobplate and armor that would kill you if you ever actually got hit in it and still be an adventurer who shakes down Demon Lords for their lunch money.

And if you don't want breasts with their own anti-gravity generators or want to wear sensible shoes and a decent pair of pants, you can do that too.

What I was trying to put down was more of a, if D&D characters were actually real, here's how I'd picture things happening. The joke was on people who think that high charisma on a female character automatically requires giant breasts. Note the post I quoted.


Me too! Men have some of the same benefits we do if they're attractive, but not all of them. For instance, an attractive woman or an attractive man will cause people in an office meeting to back off and let you speak and deal with your point instead of glossing it over. However, being an attractive man doesn't get police to let you off traffic violations with a warning the way it does for us. Likewise, people are more likely to let you in front of them in line, or give you a discount, or put extra bacon in your cafeteria breakfast, etc. etc. etc.

Yes, there are occasional dolts who spend all their time looking below your eye level. Those people would be useless no matter who they were talking to.

I work in a male dominated industry. I've dealt with being assumed to be just a girlfriend at professional events. I've dealt with being told I'm smart "for a woman", with being assumed to not know anything about my own field. I've worked at a job where people found the idea of me being competent laughable because I was female. I've been told I was so attractive I made a man assault me. I've been harassed and followed and called slurs regularly for having the gall to tell a guy who had only spoken to me for 30 seconds that I wouldn't go with him. And no one steps in to help or say anything when a guy grabs you because of it. You can keep your extra bacon.

[Coidzor]

What I was trying to put down was more of a, if D&D characters were actually real, here's how I'd picture things happening. The joke was on people who think that high charisma on a female character automatically requires giant breasts. Note the post I quoted.

Did we just hit joke-ception then? :smallconfused:


...I'm curious as to exactly how many free traffic violations and extra bacons you have to get to balance out with the whole...being sexually harassed and treated as having no value aside from a pretty face...thing.

Being considered actively unattractive doesn't particularly help women be accepted on their own merits though. Women still get judged for their physical appearance, just now they're found wanting and deemed morally offensive for failing to meet our sexual and gendered expectations. How dare she be fat. How dare she be older than 30. How dare she have those hips with those thighs instead of that ass with that (thigh) gap. And then our hypothetical woman still gets street harassed anyway.

We've got a bias towards attractive people across the majority of our society. Being attractive helps. Much like being cis gendered, White, and relatively affluent help. It's just that none of those things counteract the effects of being a woman in our society, or, indeed, most societies, unfortunately.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go wash myself off as best I can before I can shower because just talking about this and being male has me feeling dirty.

[Talya]

I work in a male dominated industry. I've dealt with being assumed to be just a girlfriend at professional events. I've dealt with being told I'm smart "for a woman", with being assumed to not know anything about my own field. I've worked at a job where people found the idea of me being competent laughable because I was female. I've been told I was so attractive I made a man assault me. I've been harassed and followed and called slurs regularly for having the gall to tell a guy who had only spoken to me for 30 seconds that I wouldn't go with him. And no one steps in to help or say anything when a guy grabs you because of it. You can keep your extra bacon.

That crap is unthinkable in this country. They'd all get fired, and you'd be rich from the lawsuits. Seriously, it simply doesn't happen here. Hell, you can get your ass hauled off to Human Resources for using the word "gay" in a way somebody finds insulting in the company i work for. Most of management positions are filled by women, too. (Disclosure: I work for a major banking and financial institution.)

[Cobra_Ikari]

That crap is unthinkable in this country. They'd all get fired, and you'd be rich from the lawsuits. Seriously, it simply doesn't happen here. Hell, you can get your ass hauled off to Human Resources for using the word "gay" in a way somebody finds insulting in the company i work for. Most of management positions are filled by women, too. (Disclosure: I work for a major banking and financial institution.)

Just because you've never been on the receiving end of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist/isn't a problem, though. And honestly, the most upsetting example I saw in this thread so far was your sample conversation, where you describe someone who sounds extremely charismatic and is female, but your DM doesn't understand/go along until you specify it's that plus tits. So it may just be that up there, it's less overt.

[Talya]

I thought it was funny.

Besides, sex really IS the most important thing.

It's why Charisma includes anything that makes you sexier.

This is what people don't get. We try to downplay it, but it's the entire reason we exist. It's the entire purpose of our existence. Everything else just enables it. More specifically: Life is procreation. Everything we ever do is to enable the sex drive. All of human achievement, all art, literature, music, finance, engineering...it all comes from and supports that most basic human imperative. If it doesn't seem to, that's only because it's designed to facilitate helping the product of sex (children) to grow up into beings that will eventually be having sex. All wars are fought, ultimately, over sex. All human philosophical constructs and metaphysical means of ordering their lives are entirely based around and focused on sex. Whether we admit it to ourselves or not, everything we do stems from that drive -- professionally, recreationally, academically.

We like to pretend we're somehow above it, that we're more than it. We're not. That drive is everything to us, whether we admit it or not, whether we're having it or not, even whether we want it or not. Sex is not some base, crass, unclean instinct. It is not something to be hidden, or to be careful about showing interest in. it is not offensive, and being overt about it is not harassing others. Sex is what we are. It is everything to the species.

And charisma must be able to manipulate that -- to control it. To use it to make others willingly do what you want them to do.

[RedMage125]

Talya, I just want to say, your posts throughout this thread have ranged from eye-roll-inducing (the CHA=gravity-defying tits) to down-to-the-core deep psychological/biological observations about humans as a species.

I just want to say, that I find your observations fascinating.

I don't necessarily agree with all of them (although I agree with some), but your outlook is refreshing. You seem to both reject traditional patriarchal ideas about society while simultaneously profiting from them.

Brava, madame, brava.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

...I'm curious as to exactly how many free traffic violations and extra bacons you have to get to balance out with the whole...being sexually harassed and treated as having no value aside from a pretty face...thing.

As Tayla said "Those people would be useless no matter who they were talking to." Most of the men in question treat everyone like crap. If yo treat attractive women like life support systems for their genitals and secondary sexual characteristics you probably treat everyone like garbage unless they're a wallet with legs or have some other temporarily useful trait. It's basically a form of sociopathy.

[Talya]

As Tayla said "Those people would be useless no matter who they were talking to." Most of the men in question treat everyone like crap. If yo treat attractive women like life support systems for their genitals and secondary sexual characteristics you probably treat everyone like garbage unless they're a wallet with legs or have some other temporarily useful trait. It's basically a form of sociopathy.

Exactly.

(Although I want to clarify, that doesn't make you a sociopath for staring at someone's chest. We're specifically talking about the useless ones here.)

[Coidzor]

Exactly.

(Although I want to clarify, that doesn't make you a sociopath for staring at someone's chest. We're specifically talking about the useless ones here.)

Indeed, it's just useless to get *caught,* after all.

[WarKitty]

As Tayla said "Those people would be useless no matter who they were talking to." Most of the men in question treat everyone like crap. If yo treat attractive women like life support systems for their genitals and secondary sexual characteristics you probably treat everyone like garbage unless they're a wallet with legs or have some other temporarily useful trait. It's basically a form of sociopathy.

And yet the main complaint here was the bimbo effect. Men who work perfectly well with other men, and even with women they don't find attractive, yet the minute they are faced with an attractive woman they are persistently incapable of seeing her as intelligent or competent. People who assume that an attractive woman must have gotten where she was in virtue of her sex, no matter how capable she actually is.

And even that aside, it does attract more attention from creeps. Maybe those men would be useless no matter what - but I could do without being grabbed or followed or even just prevented from doing anything at or around public transit because to enough men seeing an attractive woman means they must force her to pay attention to him no matter what. But of course so many times you aren't supposed to complain because their irritating behavior is "a compliment" or some other crap by men who can't tell the difference between an actual compliment and forcing their attentions on a woman.

[The Oni]

I run into this problem in Pathfinder, as my current character has TONS of Charisma and is the whole party's best friend, but is defined mostly by politeness, glib deception and manipulation. The politeness I'm good at, the deception and manipulation less so, as I'm both morally uncomfortable with, and very bad at, lying.

Fortunately, we have a large party that's split fairly often - so what I usually do is, when confronted with a situation when I really need to make a killer bluff check, I'll ask the DM to cut to the other party while I come up with my foolproof deception.

[Talya]

How I actually picture giant breasts working:

*character walks into magic mart*
Shopkeeper: Hey pretty lady!
Me: Uh-huh. I need an artificer's monocle, a wand of cure light wounds, 2 potions of the same, and a few scrolls of remove curse.
Shopkeeper: You sure you know how to use all that stuff, miss? Magic's tricky!
Me: Yes, I'm sure.
Shopkeeper: Maybe we could work out a deal. I've got a nice "magic sword" to show you in the back...
Me: Just get me my stuff.
Shopkeeper: Aww don't be so uptight, can't a guy talk to a pretty girl? C'mon, I'll give you a nice discount if you're willing to have a little fun in the back room...

You know, i thought about it.

This is how large breasts would work without lots of Charisma supporting them. (Ha. Supporting them)

Because with Charisma, this same scenario works like this:

*character walks into magic mart*
Shopkeeper's mouth hangs open.
Me: Hello there. This is a very tidy shop. I love how you keep it. I need an artificer's monocle, a wand of cure light wounds, 2 potions of the same, and a few scrolls of remove curse.
Shopkeeper: Yes, Ma'am! Thank you, Ma'am!
Shopkeeper rushes around gathering things eagerly.
Me: Don't forget the scrolls. What are your prices like? I'm sure a great shop like this can get a bit expensive.
Shopkeeper (still unable to think coherently): Well...
Me: I don't suppose there's any discounts available?
Shopkeeper: I, uh...
Me: How does 2000 gold peices sound for the lot?
Shopkeeper: Uh...
Me: Thanks. You're the best.
Shopkeeper: ... bye!

[Segev]

And yet the main complaint here was the bimbo effect. Men who work perfectly well with other men, and even with women they don't find attractive, yet the minute they are faced with an attractive woman they are persistently incapable of seeing her as intelligent or competent. People who assume that an attractive woman must have gotten where she was in virtue of her sex, no matter how capable she actually is.

And even that aside, it does attract more attention from creeps. Maybe those men would be useless no matter what - but I could do without being grabbed or followed or even just prevented from doing anything at or around public transit because to enough men seeing an attractive woman means they must force her to pay attention to him no matter what. But of course so many times you aren't supposed to complain because their irritating behavior is "a compliment" or some other crap by men who can't tell the difference between an actual compliment and forcing their attentions on a woman.

The point being made - and which you seem to be implicitly disputing but not explicitly denying - is that there are few to no such men. Men who assume that a woman must have gotten where she is based on her sex will make that assumption regardless of whether she's pretty or not. I do not know any men who can work perfectly well with women they don't find attractive, but will assume attractive women are incapable, incompetent, or stupid.

Now, where you might have a point is that men who ARE attracted to a particular woman might become less effective, themselves, as those men have a sudden need to impress the lady. Men make pretty big fools of themselves to impress the opposite sex. (I assume the same is true of women, and fiction from the gender-reversed perspective indicates it might be so.)

A lot of so-called harassment is likely just attempts by socially-awkward men to be attractive to the woman who attracts them. Yes, it can be irritating; I'm sure it would be annoying for a girl to be trying to attract me to her if I wasn't interested. I wouldn't know; I'm not nearly attractive nor socially charismatic enough that any girl has ever wished to do so.

This isn't to say harassment doesn't happen, but the jackasses who will engage in such behavior and treat pretty women as nothing but sex objects generally won't treat unattractive women any better. Many won't treat other men any better, either; their mistreatment just will differ in tone and tenor.

Heck, women do it, too. In fact, many of the most vocal "my eyes are up here" and "how dare you treat me differently" types are the same kind of jackass as the men who will treat women as nothing more than sex objects. Such women treat men as nothing more than monsters, and nothing will prove otherwise. If they're being treated well, it's because they're being disrespected based on their appearance. If they're being treated poorly, it's because they're not tarting it up. And in all cases, it's that man's fault.

Again, not all women are like that. Relatively few are, really, in my experience.

But men and women are different, and we fascinate each other. That fascination, particularly amongst those of us who are single (and PARTICULARLY if we're hoping to alter that condition in the relatively near future), will lead us to treat those we find physically attractive differently as we hope to make ourselves more attractive to them. Even consciously and deliberately trying NOT to treat them any differently leads to notably different behavior.

The way our culture has become hyper-sensitized to this actually worsens the problem, because normal human interaction between the sexes is viewed as somehow abusive and unfair. (This is not trying to characterize actual abusive behavior as normal, but we've gotten to the point where complimenting a woman on her dress is "offensive." That's GOING to make everybody HAVE to think about it all the time, and when everybody is walking on eggshells or is looking for an excuse to accuse somebody else of cracking them...)

In the end, the rule of thumb should simply be to treat others as you would want to be treated, and to, when you know their preferences, attempt to accommodate them so long as they're not unreasonable.

It's never acceptable to blame somebody else for your actions. "She's so hot she MADE me assault her" is nothing anybody is going to defend. That same person may well say "he's such a nerd he MADE me beat him up," and nobody thinks that's acceptable, either.

Being attractive helps. The worst it can do is turn somebody competent and well-meaning into somebody less competent but still well-meaning. It in no way transforms somebody who is not a jerk into one.

Interestingly, "attractiveness" and "sexiness" are distinct qualities, here. Audry Hepburn may have been sexy, but that's not the first word that comes to mind. "Gorgeous" and "classy" both come to mind first, and it's in no small part because of how she presented and comported herself. Our cultures over-emphasis on "sex==attractive" is probably more responsible for objectification of both sexes (but primarily women, since men still are ironically expected to dress more modestly in everyday wear, despite having less "essential regions" to cover to be "decent") than any level of actual sexism.

Being attractive helps. It makes people want to please you and work with you. Being sexy can be a hinderance. It focuses the mind on sex rather than on the business at hand, and is thus a distraction. It also invites objectification; apparently, seeing scantily-clad women causes men to think of them more in terms of what the men would like to do with them rather than in terms of what the woman wants. I have not heard of similar studies being done with women looking at scantily-clad men, but I imagine it would have similar (but less pronounced) results. (Women are typically less visually-oriented than are men, for whatever reason.)

So, unless your goal is to distract and shut down the higher reasoning of the opposite sex (and possibly lower the opinion of others of both sexes of you as a person), using attractiveness in modest but classy dress (for both men and women) will help. Dressing "sexy" will, no matter your sex, only help if your goal is, in fact, to get laid. (Or possibly to distract your target by focusing him on wanting to get laid.)

[WarKitty]

I think many women who work in tech or other male-dominated fields would dispute that such is quite so rare. It's common enough that I know of several women who intentionally wear baggy clothing and strap their chests down because that's what it takes to be taken seriously. And I think that any woman who walks or takes public transit will tell you that both outright crudeness and men who simply refuse to take "no" for an answer are quite common - and frustrating because you cannot so much as read a book without being called slurs for not giving a guy your number or agreeing to go out with him. And yes I've been called various slurs and insults on a regular basis for saying things as simple as that I'd like to read my book. Or even for such things as having the gall to not have a boyfriend and still turn men down.

[Talya]

Well, I've worked in IT since 1999, with IBM. Moved around from company to company, but been in the IT side of a very large financial institution during that time. I've never seen what you're describing in any company. Quite the opposite, in fact. The geeks are in awe of any woman who knows her way around a command line interface or a router. That'd be enough to infatuate them even without impressive boobies.

The funny thing, in every company I've ever worked - women dominated management in IT. It's almost become a universal thing. Men still dominate the trenches, but that's not due to hiring policy. It's because not enough of us apply for tech jobs.

[Trasilor]

I am ignoring all the posts that have very little to do with the OP original post...:smallamused:

I have this issue with my current group of players - figuring out how to play the mental stats.

I always have them defer to the skill sets for inspiration on what those stats mean.

For a High Charisma and Low Wisdom - you are basically a very persuasive albeit self-centered individual. You are great at influencing people and exerting your will on others. But, you don't really understand the needs of others. While your actions may benefit others, it is not intentional rather a by-product of your actions.

If another in your group is intuitive to the needs of others - you would be the spokesperson to champion the cause. If another person knows of an impending doom threatening a kingdom - you would be the person convincing the leadership to evacuate the kingdom or leading the people yourself.

For role-playing purposes - don't worry about what you say, focus on how you say. Be bold and confident.

Finally, as others have stated, talk to your DM. Explain that while you are not the most charismatic person out there, your character is and you hope that they are willing to overlook it when you miss-speak.

I find that The Doctor (of Doctor Who) represents all three mental stats. He is brilliant, observes everything and is supremely confident even when he has no idea what will happen ( for you, focus on the third :smallamused: ). He is also one of the few characters who can strike terror into the hearts of an entire armies wielding nothing but a screwdriver.

[WarKitty]

I am ignoring all the posts that have very little to do with the OP original post...:smallamused:

I have this issue with my current group of players - figuring out how to play the mental stats.

I always have them defer to the skill sets for inspiration on what those stats mean.

For a High Charisma and Low Wisdom - you are basically a very persuasive albeit self-centered individual. You are great at influencing people and exerting your will on others. But, you don't really understand the needs of others. While your actions may benefit others, it is not intentional rather a by-product of your actions.

If another in your group is intuitive to the needs of others - you would be the spokesperson to champion the cause. If another person knows of an impending doom threatening a kingdom - you would be the person convincing the leadership to evacuate the kingdom or leading the people yourself.

For role-playing purposes - don't worry about what you say, focus on how you say. Be bold and confident.

Finally, as others have stated, talk to your DM. Explain that while you are not the most charismatic person out there, your character is and you hope that they are willing to overlook it when you miss-speak.

I find that The Doctor (of Doctor Who) represents all three mental stats. He is brilliant, observes everything and is supremely confident even when he has no idea what will happen ( for you, focus on the third :smallamused: ). He is also one of the few characters who can strike terror into the hearts of an entire armies wielding nothing but a screwdriver.

The bolded is the one thing I do want to avoid, just because I think it gets too much into mental stats dictating what properly should be alignment. How much a character in the abstract cares about others should be separate from how well they understand how that works. So I could picture a character who, for example, is very eager to help even in cases where she's not actually helping, unless someone clearly and directly tells her she's not helping (and would probably be upset to realize it).

[Talya]

The bolded is the one thing I do want to avoid, just because I think it gets too much into mental stats dictating what properly should be alignment. How much a character in the abstract cares about others should be separate from how well they understand how that works. So I could picture a character who, for example, is very eager to help even in cases where she's not actually helping, unless someone clearly and directly tells her she's not helping (and would probably be upset to realize it).

Agreed. Wisdom has nothing to do with intent. The opposite example also applies, an chaotic evil person with high wisdom and charisma who uses both to get exactly what they want and make life difficult for the people they beguile with their charming ways.

[Firechanter]

I can tell you how _not_ to play a High Cha character: by being a chatterbox that keeps babbling and babbling in a manner you might mistakenly think to be "endearing".
Srsly, the last couple of dozen Gnomes I encountered kinda all filled this stereotype. The respective players/DMs were trying to depict them as "charismatic" but they just got on everybody's nerves (especially mine) and got their guts hated pretty soon.

As for constructive advice, I second a piece that was given earlier in this thread: look at movie or literature characters that are similar to what you want to play, and copy their lines.

[RedMage125]

I think many women who work in tech or other male-dominated fields would dispute that such is quite so rare. It's common enough that I know of several women who intentionally wear baggy clothing and strap their chests down because that's what it takes to be taken seriously. And I think that any woman who walks or takes public transit will tell you that both outright crudeness and men who simply refuse to take "no" for an answer are quite common - and frustrating because you cannot so much as read a book without being called slurs for not giving a guy your number or agreeing to go out with him. And yes I've been called various slurs and insults on a regular basis for saying things as simple as that I'd like to read my book. Or even for such things as having the gall to not have a boyfriend and still turn men down.

Warkitty, Segev's not saying that THOSE men you're talking about aren't jerkbags. Certainly anyone who thinks that they're "entitled" to have you go home with them if they chat you up for a minute or two is a subpar human being.

His point was more to the wide brush with which you were attempting to paint men and women in the workplace vis a vis attractiveness.

Segev is saying your personal experiences do not necessarily constitute "the norm". And I agree. I work in a field that has only recently (within the last 15 years or so) ALLOWED women to work in more than a limited capacity. I have people working above me who remember when women could only work on platforms that didn't go to the carrier. I have heard talk about women who get advanced quickly, but most people assume -not that she's a floozy- but that the Navy's top brass is trying to get more women in higher-ranking positions so that there's an equal spread of gender-mixing among the senior enlisted that there is among the junior enlisted.

In the workplace itself, my experience is that it's more common to have what Segev describes. I've seen some otherwise very professional guys turn into a bunch of blubbering goofballs when a really cute girl came to the shop. Me? I'm married, so regardless of if a woman is attractive or not, I treat them all the same. I have had unattractive females in my workcenter display staggering levels of incompetence. I've also had some really cute ones that were really good at their jobs, and everything in-between. I prefer to maintain a level of egalitarianism. That is: I don't care if you're male or female, if you're the junior person in the shop, YOU are carrying the 40 lb. toolbox out to the jet when we go work on it. I've had people look at me and ask "you're gonna make a female carry the tools?". To which my response is "yes". A vagina is not a handicap. Junior person carries the tools. If there's a literal physical limitation on whether or not they can do something, I'll step in and do it (for example, part of our daily inspection involves pulling a memory unit that one of the shorter females in the shop cannot physically reach).

But more to the point is the guys that all of a sudden are making fools of themselves because there's an attractive female nearby. We had a girl join the command who was EXTREMELY attractive. Then everyone found out that she's a huge gamer (video games, not tabletop). In fact, she used to play Halo professionally. Well, needless to say, there were any number of guys who thought that they had hit the jackpot and seriously made asses out of themselves in the process. I made friends with her, and she found it all hilarious.

Segev's also right about how some people are just over-sensitive. On the one hand, you have the fact that it is rude to stare at a woman's cleavage when talking to her. On the other hand, you have women who will dress in a top that is explicitly cleavage-attention-inducing and act like any man who looks (even quick, stolen glances) is slime. I do not advocate any kind of "she was asking for it" defense on the part of men guilty of sexual assault, but certain cuts of shirts and blouses ARE designed to draw the eye to a woman's cleavage. It's a simple middle-school Art concept called a "focus point". On some level, a woman wearing such a top knows full well that she is drawing attention to her assets. Most grown women I know are mature enough to recognize that, and if they are wearing such a top, it's because they felt like looking a little sexy that day. But others (usually less mature females) put on a facade of innocence regarding the kind of response such dress provokes. And our culture DOES support a hyper-sensitive overly reactionary outlook that some women use as a weapon to vilify any man they find convenient to do so.

There's nothing wrong with dressing to look good, even sexy. But own it, at least. If you're dressed sexy, you probably know it. My wife works at the GNC on base. A lot of her customers are young, single male sailors looking to get workout supplements so they can workout hard and get impressive-looking. My wife dresses classy, but still distinctly feminine (skirts, nylons, and while her blouse may be tight across her bust, she usually wears a valero over it). And she KNOWS that being an attractive woman and saying the right thing here or there ("you're definitely getting some good definition, you should try THIS product if you want to bulk up even more"), can help her make a sale and increase her commission.
EDIT: THAT is a good example of using Charisma in an interaction, lol.

I just want to close by saying that I am NOT defending guys who can't take "no" for an answer. People like that are terrible. What Segev and I are saying, though, is that it is not the norm. I'm not saying you are one of the hyper-sensitive people, either. I just wanted to throw support behind what Segev was saying.

[Vaz]

So we've gone from "high charisma" to sexual harrassment. Boring. Take it elsewhere. It doesn't fit in.

[Talya]

So we've gone from "high charisma" to sexual harrassment. Boring. Take it elsewhere. It doesn't fit in.

Original Poster's the one who took it there.

[Cobra_Ikari]

Original Poster's the one who took it there.

Really, I'd say it was more...the idea of Charisma being separate from physical appearance came up, and then the whole thing got flooded with people who have no clue what they're talking about denying sexual harassment/sexism are things. Which I'm finding pretty sickening to read, honestly, because it ends up suggesting you're either naive, blind, or actively part of the problem.

[Vaz]

Then be sickened. Be disgusted. But do it in the correct place - i.e not a gaming forum.

Roleplaying high charisma has nothing to do with bras being burned and whatever else you're talking about.

[Trasilor]

The bolded is the one thing I do want to avoid, just because I think it gets too much into mental stats dictating what properly should be alignment. How much a character in the abstract cares about others should be separate from how well they understand how that works. So I could picture a character. who, for example, is very eager to help even in cases where she's not actually helping, unless someone clearly and directly tells her she's not helping (and would probably be upset to realize it).


Ok, I agree that my statement was not clear. What I meant was that a high Charisma / low Wisdom is more of a spokesperson. They know how to to sell the idea, but might not come up with the original thought.

Another way to play it is to have her be somewhat oblivious to her surrounding and the feelings of others. This is not malice, just that tends to forget not everyone thinks like she does.

And remember, a LOW wisdom is like 7 or less. A 10 is just as empathetic and observant as your average person. An 8-9 is slightly worse. They don't really "get" others (they might feel frustrated that others don't think like they do - a problem faced on many internet boards :smallamused: ). They tend to not notice their surrounds good as your average person- perhaps they get hyper-focused resulting in missing things or they have ADD. After that you start to get into people who have a difficult time relating to people. They might need to learn how to relate to other people as it doesn't come naturally.

Of course these are just my opinion that I tell my players - talk to your DM as to their expectations of a High Charisma/Low Wis character. :smallsmile:

[WarKitty]

Then be sickened. Be disgusted. But do it in the correct place - i.e not a gaming forum.

Roleplaying high charisma has nothing to do with bras being burned and whatever else you're talking about.

Please don't come in complaining about stereotypes and then start throwing around stereotypes. I brought up some related stuff about people conflating high charisma with not even physical attractiveness but a stereotype of it.

And what I'm saying is that, simply by walking down the street and taking public transit, harassment *is* the norm in every place I've lived - to the point where I permanently gave up the idea of reading at a bus stop simply because it is more common than not to find it made impossible by harassment. I'm talking that on average an incident of harassment will occur 2-3 times in a week, for someone who is typically walking or taking the bus almost every day. I probably get called some sort or rude name about once a week, always for making clear that I don't want a man to continue his attentions. And this is living in several different locations scattered across the united states, all of which have shown the exact same pattern. (And before anyone brings it up, I dress in extremely conservative clothing with no hint of cleavage or anything else.)

[Talya]

That must be a difficult place to live, wherever it is. It's not the norm in the rest of English-speaking North America. It exists, but it's not a common thing. (Probably because it's actualy criminal here to do most of the stuff you're describing.) I've been whistled at on occasion walking past a construction site(which is flattering, not harassment--so I whistled back), but never groped by someone I didn't want to grope me. And women pretty much dominate management in most corporate environments here.

Anyway, since a couple people question whether Charisma-the-ability-score includes appearance at all, allow me to quote RAW on the matter:


Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

It's right there. Charisma as written is a big ecclectic blend of determination, eloquence, charm, leadership, and looks. The dictionary definition of charisma doesn't really include that, but we're talking D&D, not OED.

[WarKitty]

I've lived in 4 different locations within the U.S. and all of them have had roughly the same frequency of harassment. I know women in a good dozen others who report the same thing. I haven't had groping be an issue but I have had men grabbing to try to force me to pay attention to them or follow them. How many places have you been in?

And anyways, it's equally amusing that "physical attractiveness" somehow translates into "gravity-defying titties."

[Phelix-Mu]

I usually allow ppl the choice of being attractive or not, just like eye color, up to player discretion. Doesn't need to be connected to looks; I'm sure we are all aware of really beautiful people that are nevertheless uncharismatic. If a given player wants Character X to have their beauty be a relevant part of their Charisma score, fine. If not, even the most troll-like crone or hunchbacked person can have a bright and vibrant personality that makes them hard to ignore.

Anyway, my favorite role play device for high Charisma was for a dragonblooded sorceress that I designed. She was pale and dark-eyed, with dark hair, mildly goth, but mainly just...extremely creepy. She went around mumbling in rhyming couplets, humming children's rhymes, looking distracted, and generally just scaring people reflexively. People didn't really know why, but she just radiated eeriness, and was involved in all that hocus pocus magic stuff, too. She went into Dread Witch and was generally a blast to play as a recurring npcs and questgiver (and sometimes romantic liaison of one of the characters).

[Talya]

I've lived in 4 different locations within the U.S. and all of them have had roughly the same frequency of harassment. I know women in a good dozen others who report the same thing. I haven't had groping be an issue but I have had men grabbing to try to force me to pay attention to them or follow them. How many places have you been in?
I have only lived in Ontario. But I've spent a significant amount of time in most states in the eastern time zone. (From Michigan down to Florida, and everything in between.) Now, with the exception of Cuban-Miami, I have not spent any significant time in any ethnic-minority communities, so I can't speak to them. Cultural differences can cause major differences in behavior. My sister-in-law spent time in Rome, Italy, and said the men there were far more aggressive than in Canada.



And anyways, it's equally amusing that "physical attractiveness" somehow translates into "gravity-defying titties."

Is it really? I think that's pretty easy to figure out. I mean, okay, not all tastes are the same, but I like women as much as I like men, and I think what's below is fairly standard in opinions of feminine appearance:

(1) Larger breasts tend to be more sexually appealing than smaller ones.
(2) Pert and perky tend to be more sexually appealing than sagging.
(3) Gravity tends to cause 1 and 2 to conflict. Larger ones sag a bit, smaller ones are always pert and perky. Anything that manages 1&2 together is "defying gravity."

[Phelix-Mu]

(1) Larger breasts tend to be more sexually appealing than smaller ones.
(2) Pert and perky tend to be more sexually appealing than sagging.
(3) Gravity tends to cause 1 and 2 to conflict. Larger ones sag a bit, smaller ones are always pert and perky. Anything that manages 1&2 together is "defying gravity."

The only real rule in standards on opinions of what constitutes an attractive human is that standards are all but useless, as a significant portion of people deviate strongly from the "norm," while many within the norm are not at all picky. Even what you describe is strongly influenced by a Western concept of beauty, which dates back to Greco-Roman ideals, and that hardly constitutes a universal series of values.

That pop-culture or magazine covers pigeonhole the majority of us into some discrete mindset is further problematic, and I don't think at all indicative of consensus.

If we are trying to avoid stereotypes, then the matter of attractiveness should largely just be left as open to interpretation.

[Vaz]

Please don't come in complaining about stereotypes and then start throwing around stereotypes. I brought up some related stuff about people conflating high charisma with not even physical attractiveness but a stereotype of it.

Read what I put.

I'm not complaining about stereotypes, I'm complaining about those people who ARE complaining about stereotypes. I, and many others, do not care for inane socio-political gobbledegook over how people should or should not act in their own lives and what its placement is in a forum concerning how to roleplay high charisma (because people don't have that around here - but at the same time don't struggle to roleplay high strength) I still have no idea.

Take it elsewhere.

[WarKitty]

Read what I put.

I'm not complaining about stereotypes, I'm complaining about those people who ARE complaining about stereotypes. I, and many others, do not care for inane socio-political gobbledegook over how people should or should not act in their own lives and what its placement is in a forum concerning how to roleplay high charisma (because people don't have that around here - but at the same time don't struggle to roleplay high strength) I still have no idea.

Take it elsewhere.

I did. If you'll read the earlier bits of the thread you'll notice I made some actual comments on how roleplaying high charisma can be harder than things like strength. The mental stats are harder to roleplay correctly than the physical stats, because you don't actually swing a sword at the table to roleplay swinging a sword, but you do come up with what your character is saying and doing to roleplay how a charismatic character convinces someone. That can be hard for someone who isn't naturally good at coming up with particularly charismatic things to say and do, to where the character comes off as awkward because the player is a bit awkward in how they speak.

In any case, I made a somewhat lighthearted joke about how many roleplayers seem to think a high charisma female character requires her to have large breasts, and how some roleplayers see that trait working is different than how many women experience it working in real life (especially given that I'd just been followed to church by a creepy guy and wasn't exactly in a great mood about such things). Still on topic. Someone else jumped in with a post telling me that was wrong and silly and it went from there. Sometimes threads drift a bit; I know I sent a note to the mods and they haven't done anything yet. I'll leave it to their judgement.

[Mauve Shirt]

Man, I once had to impress a dragon in order to get a macguffin for the party, but being a wizard I hadn't exactly maxed my charisma attribute. My DM said that I could roleplay my way out of a low roll. I am horrible, HORRIBLE, at making things up on the spot, so my character ended up looking like a fool in front of this Mighty Lizard. Since the item was important the DM decided I could impress the dragon with my intellect instead, and many knowledge rolls were made.

That's kind of neither here nor there, is it?
I guess if I had to play a high charisma sort, I'd choose the path of evil or at least neutral. It's easy to be overconfident and brash and seem charismatic when you're a jackass.

[RedMage125]

Warkitty, as much as I would like to stay on topic, on the note of the drift:

A lot of Segev's statements and mine were initially a reaction to your claim of "fact" that men do not think an attractive woman can also be intelligent/competent.

I'm sorry for your experiences, and all I can tell you is that such is straight-up harassment, and it is illegal. It is also not indicative of how every male in the country acts and reacts around a woman he finds attractive.

Indeed, Segev's main point on that is that men who act like that are usually just as derogatory towards other people, too. Even other men (although the tone and tenor of it will be different).

On a personal note to you:


(And before anyone brings it up, I dress in extremely conservative clothing with no hint of cleavage or anything else.)
I want to apologize if I in any way gave the impression that I was implying ANYTHING about your situation. I was only bringing it up in regards to, and support of, Segev's point about some people acting hyper-sensitive and the distinction between a woman's cleavage getting looked at when she's wearing clothes that showcase it, and guys who stare at a woman's chest when having a conversation (which is rude no matter what she's wearing).
I did not mean to imply, in any way, that you were doing anything to "attract" the attention of people who have been harassing you (and yes, it is harassment). And if you feel that I was implying such about you, I profusely apologize.

[Talya]

Can't let that pass - we should get one thing clear: It wouldn't matter how Warkitty dressed. She could be walking along the street in a string bikini with a thong, and it still doesn't excuse actual sexual harassment. There's no such thing as "Asking for it." One's state of dress is irrelevant.

[WarKitty]

Warkitty, as much as I would like to stay on topic, on the note of the drift:

A lot of Segev's statements and mine were initially a reaction to your claim of "fact" that men do not think an attractive woman can also be intelligent/competent.

I'm sorry for your experiences, and all I can tell you is that such is straight-up harassment, and it is illegal. It is also not indicative of how every male in the country acts and reacts around a woman he finds attractive.

Indeed, Segev's main point on that is that men who act like that are usually just as derogatory towards other people, too. Even other men (although the tone and tenor of it will be different).

On a personal note to you:

I want to apologize if I in any way gave the impression that I was implying ANYTHING about your situation. I was only bringing it up in regards to, and support of, Segev's point about some people acting hyper-sensitive and the distinction between a woman's cleavage getting looked at when she's wearing clothes that showcase it, and guys who stare at a woman's chest when having a conversation (which is rude no matter what she's wearing).
I did not mean to imply, in any way, that you were doing anything to "attract" the attention of people who have been harassing you (and yes, it is harassment). And if you feel that I was implying such about you, I profusely apologize.

I think it's really stretching english to say that I ever said anything about all men. I said that there were a significant number of cases where men did behave in the ways I mentioned that are wrong. But I said stuff like "there are men who" and "being followed by creepy men" and whatnot - none of which means or even implies that all or even most men behave that way. The only point I ever made was that there are a significant enough number to make it a real concern as a woman and something that I find myself forced to modify my behavior to deal with.

Edit: Ok that last way of putting it was a little harsh. Still...I feel like the implication that I was talking about all men here is resulting from preconceptions about the topic, rather than from what I actually said. So, say, the previous quote



And yet the main complaint here was the bimbo effect. Men who work perfectly well with other men, and even with women they don't find attractive, yet the minute they are faced with an attractive woman they are persistently incapable of seeing her as intelligent or competent. People who assume that an attractive woman must have gotten where she was in virtue of her sex, no matter how capable she actually is.

means that the complaint is that there are men who meet the following description, and that having to deal with those men is a major factor in not wanting to be seen as more attractive. It seems very strained to me to read that as a statement about all men.

[RedMage125]

Can't let that pass - we should get one thing clear: It wouldn't matter how Warkitty dressed. She could be walking along the street in a string bikini with a thong, and it still doesn't excuse actual sexual harassment. There's no such thing as "Asking for it." One's state of dress is irrelevant.
And I agree.

I was speaking more to what Segev was saying about the reverse response by (admittedly a minority, but a significant minority) of women. Harassment is Harassment, and nothing excuses it.


I think it's really stretching english to say that I ever said anything about all men. I said that there were a significant number of cases where men did behave in the ways I mentioned that are wrong. But I said stuff like "there are men who" and "being followed by creepy men" and whatnot - none of which means or even implies that all or even most men behave that way. The only point I ever made was that there are a significant enough number to make it a real concern as a woman and something that I find myself forced to modify my behavior to deal with.

But I never, ever, ever said anything even remotely close to that all men or even most men think a women can't be attractive or competent, and I find it extremely insulting that people assumed that I meant that.

I believe the comment in question was:

And yet the main complaint here was the bimbo effect. Men who work perfectly well with other men, and even with women they don't find attractive, yet the minute they are faced with an attractive woman they are persistently incapable of seeing her as intelligent or competent. People who assume that an attractive woman must have gotten where she was in virtue of her sex, no matter how capable she actually is.
It is couched as a general statement. Or at the very least, a majority. Especially because it was in response to a statement that essentially said "men who do that generally treat others like crap, too. It is not limited to the way they treat women". The perception is that you were arguing the point in such a manner as to say "men generally cannot believe a woman can be both intelligent/competent while also being attractive". I understand you are saying that was not your intent. But that seems to be the perception. If perception is awry, then it's awry...but that does not mean that you did not give that impression at first.

[SaintRidley]

Take it elsewhere.

It's not your job to tell the OP what is and is not pertinent to her thread. It's probably best to drop it and let the mods decide what is or isn't.

To Warkitty, I'd say it depends on what kind of high charisma character you want to play. If you want the smooth talkin', make the tunics drop type, I'd look to movies for good one liners that strike you as particularly sexy and start with them and vary them up a bit with some invention.

For the glib liar type, I might spend some time putting together lies before you hit the table which you can familiarize yourself with before the lying occasion comes up.

Hope those ideas are useful.

[WarKitty]

And I agree.

I was speaking more to what Segev was saying about the reverse response by (admittedly a minority, but a significant minority) of women. Harassment is Harassment, and nothing excuses it.



I believe the comment in question was:

It is couched as a general statement. Or at the very least, a majority. Especially because it was in response to a statement that essentially said "men who do that generally treat others like crap, too. It is not limited to the way they treat women". The perception is that you were arguing the point in such a manner as to say "men generally cannot believe a woman can be both intelligent/competent while also being attractive". I understand you are saying that was not your intent. But that seems to be the perception. If perception is awry, then it's awry...but that does not mean that you did not give that impression at first.

I don't get this. What you're saying is to me an extremely strained and unnatural way of interpreting that statement. A general statement would be "Men work perfectly well with other men, and even with women they don't find attractive, yet the minute..." and so forth. The "men who" construction means that what follows it is a subset of men.

[Phelix-Mu]

Apologies if I spoke out of turn or contributed to the drift. Lemme take a stab at returning in the direction of the OP.

A big thing missing from the Cha stat is that it sets an objective metric to a series of qualities that, irl, have a strongly cultural and individual context. I personally find strong, independent women that speak their minds openly, damn the detractors, very appealing and charismatic. Someone in another culture, or even another individual in the same culture, might have a totally opposite reaction.

I'm not saying that the concept of Cha as a stat is doomed to fail, just that they took an incredibly nuanced and subtle series of interactions and rolled them into one number. More specifically, they encapsulated both strong negative reactions and strong positive reactions in the same thing, which adds significantly to confusion among players, in my view. What is the precise distinction between having an ugly, unappealing character, and having a character whose strong Charisma is rooted in their hideous appearance and nature? Most people run afoul of "public face" and "confident/persuasive speaker" cliches, which are perfectly valid, but a rather simplified aspect of a very complex ability score.

In the end, embodiment of Charisma is pretty much down to role play or description of actions. Fluff. You can roll Charisma rolls, but it's really up to the player to decide the way in which their character is appealing. It is up to the DM to decide just who is impressed and who is repelled (if repelled with a sense of grudging admiration for the hideous nature of the person).

[Coidzor]

And yet the main complaint here was the bimbo effect. Men who work perfectly well with other men, and even with women they don't find attractive, yet the minute they are faced with an attractive woman they are persistently incapable of seeing her as intelligent or competent. People who assume that an attractive woman must have gotten where she was in virtue of her sex, no matter how capable she actually is.

And this will only be in your game if you're playing with a jerk or in order to highlight the villain status of a particular character or group.


Original Poster's the one who took it there.

Boobs are what took it there, specifically great, big, gravity-defying breasts. As much as I and many of us are fans, discussing them seems to be problematical at times.

[Phelix-Mu]

Boobs are what took it there, specifically great, big, gravity-defying breasts. As much as I and many of us are fans, discussing them seems to be problematical at times.

Judging the maturity of an audience that you are unfamiliar with, especially online (as any judgement about a potentially unlimited audience is problematic) is fraught with peril, and leads to all manner of misunderstanding about all sorts of thing. Not just boobs. Who hasn't made a Johnson joke and then suddenly realized "wait! To the time machine; I MUST UNSAY THAT!"? (hehe, nice job on my part butchering the punctuation.)

I think this is only slightly off-topic, anyway. We all are here to make constructive discussion, but constructive discussion escapes us. I believe that this is to the OP's point that mental stats are hard to role play, because we are innately limited by how intelligent/wise/persuasive our own minds are.

In a sense, it's a limitation imposed by imagination; with practice, even a non-Charismatic person can learn to pretend to be Charismatic. On the other hand, such practice is eminently easier for someone that isn't fail in said mental stat to begin with. All in all, I consider it part of my responsibility as DM to encourage players to broaden their role play abilities, and I'm fine with bending the mechanics or house-ruling benefits to encourage that kind of "practice." Especially for a couple of my players that tend to be more down-and-dirty, hack-and-slash types.

[tadkins]

In regards to charisma, wouldn't physical attractiveness be relative?

That female ogre with low CHA might be considered unattractive by a lot of creatures. That male ogre might find her appealing, though.

[Coidzor]

I think this is only slightly off-topic, anyway. We all are here to make constructive discussion, but constructive discussion escapes us. I believe that this is to the OP's point that mental stats are hard to role play, because we are innately limited by how intelligent/wise/persuasive our own minds are.

In a sense, it's a limitation imposed by imagination; with practice, even a non-Charismatic person can learn to pretend to be Charismatic. On the other hand, such practice is eminently easier for someone that isn't fail in said mental stat to begin with. All in all, I consider it part of my responsibility as DM to encourage players to broaden their role play abilities, and I'm fine with bending the mechanics or house-ruling benefits to encourage that kind of "practice." Especially for a couple of my players that tend to be more down-and-dirty, hack-and-slash types.

Indeed, and charisma is the most je ne sais quoi of all of the attributes, at least, in how we tend to think about and treat it.

It does seem far better to encourage attempts at roleplaying, aye.

[rexx1888]

... wow this thread has some scary mod bait in it :\

OT, i would suggest when playing high charisma, you approach it the same as you should be approaching any other part of the game. Describe your actions as well as using your words. If your group isnt used to that, then make them used to it. if they talk over you, make shushing moves with your hands..over time, they will stop interrupting you. Then, describe, an follow with words. An accent will often help you get into the swing of things, though to feel confident with it you should practice outside of session(an dont stress if it sounds daft, doesnt matter. Even Cletus can be charismatic if he acts the right way :D ). this by the way is the same thing you probably do when describing your character attacking someone, or how you approach problems, your simply mixing it with your IC words :D

[RedMage125]

OT, i would suggest when playing high charisma, you approach it the same as you should be approaching any other part of the game. Describe your actions as well as using your words. If your group isnt used to that, then make them used to it. if they talk over you, make shushing moves with your hands..over time, they will stop interrupting you. Then, describe, an follow with words. An accent will often help you get into the swing of things, though to feel confident with it you should practice outside of session(an dont stress if it sounds daft, doesnt matter. Even Cletus can be charismatic if he acts the right way :D ). this by the way is the same thing you probably do when describing your character attacking someone, or how you approach problems, your simply mixing it with your IC words :D

While I agree that this seems like excellent advice, our OP has specified part of her problem in the way her group dynamic works:

Yeah I guess the problem I have is that's not how the groups I play with tend to work. If you want to talk to someone it's just done by saying exactly what you say, rather than describing the sort of thing you want to say. That and I really want to play a character that speaks first and quickly, but I always end up being the character who does things last because I can't put together sentences quickly enough to play otherwise.
That is, that simply "describing her actions as well as her words" does not help when it seems the DM insists that what you (the player) say at the table is what your character says. That she has issues with how to "be charismatic and speak first" when her DM insists that what she says is what her character says is a problem when she wants to think through what her character is going to say to make it plausable for a high-CHA character.

That said, Warkitty: perhaps you should talk to your DM before or after your next session (either way, dont stop the game), and address this issue directly. Perhaps he will be more accommodating in allowing for rolling skill checks for social skills that you have invested in. After all, why put ranks in Diplomacy or Bluff if our DM is going to do all of that by pure roleplay anyway? Talk to your fellow players, too, and when social interaction situations come up, be the first to tell the other players that your character steps up to speak, and then ask for a moment to collect your thoughts and put together an appropriate speech for your character. Which is a lot like what rexx1888 suggested, without coming across as rude to the other players. If you let them know in advance that such is ho you would like to play your character, they may be more accomodating.

From what you have said, it seems your issue is not "how do I roleplay high Charisma?", but "How can I manage having a high-Charisma character in a group that handles all social situations in-character, without resorting to skill checks for social skills?". Because the way I see what you have described, the way your DM runs things now, a player who is naturally charismatic and talkative IRL could get away with any number of Diplomacy or Bluff situations, even if his character has a Charisma of 6 and no ranks in either skill.

[WarKitty]

While I agree that this seems like excellent advice, our OP has specified part of her problem in the way her group dynamic works:

That is, that simply "describing her actions as well as her words" does not help when it seems the DM insists that what you (the player) say at the table is what your character says. That she has issues with how to "be charismatic and speak first" when her DM insists that what she says is what her character says is a problem when she wants to think through what her character is going to say to make it plausable for a high-CHA character.

That said, Warkitty: perhaps you should talk to your DM before or after your next session (either way, dont stop the game), and address this issue directly. Perhaps he will be more accommodating in allowing for rolling skill checks for social skills that you have invested in. After all, why put ranks in Diplomacy or Bluff if our DM is going to do all of that by pure roleplay anyway? Talk to your fellow players, too, and when social interaction situations come up, be the first to tell the other players that your character steps up to speak, and then ask for a moment to collect your thoughts and put together an appropriate speech for your character. Which is a lot like what rexx1888 suggested, without coming across as rude to the other players. If you let them know in advance that such is ho you would like to play your character, they may be more accomodating.

From what you have said, it seems your issue is not "how do I roleplay high Charisma?", but "How can I manage having a high-Charisma character in a group that handles all social situations in-character, without resorting to skill checks for social skills?". Because the way I see what you have described, the way your DM runs things now, a player who is naturally charismatic and talkative IRL could get away with any number of Diplomacy or Bluff situations, even if his character has a Charisma of 6 and no ranks in either skill.

We do make the rolls as well, but in my experience it does seem to matter how the character is roleplayed. I'd like a character that comes across as calm and confident in herself, neither of which are things I can do very well at all.

[Segev]

Can't let that pass - we should get one thing clear: It wouldn't matter how Warkitty dressed. She could be walking along the street in a string bikini with a thong, and it still doesn't excuse actual sexual harassment. There's no such thing as "Asking for it." One's state of dress is irrelevant.
On the one hand, you're quite right: It doesn't excuse harassment, and physically or even emotionally assaulting somebody is wrong whether it's "inspired" by how much you want them or how much you hate them. On the other, how you dress WILL influence people's reactions. It may not excuse their bad behavior, but deliberately making yourself a bigger target (which, again, I'm not saying WarKitty in particular has done) DOES mean you garner less sympathy when bad things are done to you by those bad people.

A man in a $10,000 suit stepping out of a $250,000 sports car in gang-ridden areas is "asking for it" as much as a woman wearing a string bikini in the same area. It doesn't excuse the criminal behavior, but it definitely diminishes the sympathy the victim gets.

(Though one of my favorite tropes is "Mugging the Monster," so a vigilante using either of these bait tactics to make whatever (s)he does to the criminals who assault him (or her) into Self Defense will usually get applause. Because, again, being a big fat target doesn't excuse somebody pulling a metaphorical - or literal - trigger.)



As to the question about appearance and Charisma, yes, beauty can be a part of a high Charisma. Even if one has the physical qualities that might be deemed "beautiful" on somebody who knew how to use them, a low-Charisma person will fade into the shadows or wear his or her "beauty" in a way that causes him or her to be considered shallow, vapid, or otherwise undesirable. The "pretty but unbearable" types, the kind who get the "she's beautiful so she MUST be a slut" treatment...they have low charisma despite being attractive, physically. Whatever it is they're doing with their appearance, it's sending the wrong signals and pushing the wrong buttons.

Most Charismatic people will look good, if only because they will know how to use what they have. They either comport themselves in such a way that "just got out of bed" still looks ravishing, or they're very capable with grooming and the like to make their less attractive features come off in endearing or imposing ways. Unattractive people who nonetheless possess charisma tend to be very high on the "force of personality" scale, and still get described as "striking." Even the most plain or hideous of people with high Charisma will manage to make being in their presence something people want to do.

[Phelix-Mu]

@WarKitty:

If it's a problem irl, then I'd advise asking the other group members and DM to give you some breathing space and leeway, in the name of your learning how to role play more smoothly. Giving you a few moments shouldn't ruin disbelief, and it will pay off in the long run by allowing you to increase your irl ranks in the various social skills. Practice is probably the best, and possibly only, solution to your problem.

By the by, lots of people have this problem and lots of people get better over time. Several of my players have recently surprised me by responding with much more than the expected awkward silence when I pass them the microphone.

Practical Advice:
1.) Prep stuff in advance: Most characters have idiomatic tendencies, turns of phrase, or constructions that can be roughly fleshed out in advance and give a special flavor to important bits of role play. Think of Foghorn Leghorn or Yoda. Just by adding some bit of syntax, or maybe a bit of quirky body language (straightening your glasses, tugging on a forelock, tapping your foot impatiently). Feel free to describe the body language or act it out (if it's an in-person session).

2.) Devise a few interesting social tactics. Like telling a tale from childhood that illustrates something. Come up with the tale in advance, and change small details on the fly to make the lesson fit the needs of the moment.

[Adverb]

WarKitty - you're up a bit of a creek, because a high Charisma is the hardest thing to roleplay. But you *know* you're up a creek, which helps a lot. The suggestions earlier about "I use my charm to convince the Duke that we should..." can help patch over the rough parts. Most of the suggestions are good, especially the stuff from Talya.

As for some of the other stuff:

Manlet (https://twitter.com/vqnerdballs/status/467289575036321793)
a play in one act

Hamlet: What a piece of work is man!

Rosencrantz: Not all men.

The rest is silence.

[Coidzor]

We do make the rolls as well, but in my experience it does seem to matter how the character is roleplayed. I'd like a character that comes across as calm and confident in herself, neither of which are things I can do very well at all.

Then you're screwed as long as your DM has forgotten the axiom "Don't be a ****."

Unless you're able to rectify this by practicing in a mirror like what they recommend for public speaking or something.

[Thrudd]

We do make the rolls as well, but in my experience it does seem to matter how the character is roleplayed. I'd like a character that comes across as calm and confident in herself, neither of which are things I can do very well at all.

So it sounds like what you want advise on is how to really have higher charisma, not how to play a character with high charisma.

Personally, I think it isn't right that social and mental skills require actual player ability while the physical don't. If you don't actually need to be able to swing a sword or pick a lock or dodge a fireball, why should you have to know how to fast-talk a guard or sweet-talk a noble? Just like in combat, you should be able to describe your character's actions and allow the game mechanics to decide the outcome. If you happen to be talented at talking in real-life, you might like playing a high charisma character, but it shouldn't give you an advantage over any other high charisma character. Likewise, the character of someone who is a martial arts expert in real life doesn't automatically outperform the characters of those who have never lifted a sword or spear, no matter in how much detail they can describe their actions.
Your skill as a player lies in choosing the best actions for your character, whether it be attacking the right enemy or talking to the right person.

If your group demands that social interaction rely on actual player skill rather than character skill, there isn't a lot of advise anyone can give you. Be more confident in yourself? Try to be more extroverted and socially open? Practice reading novels out loud to yourself and try to act out the dialogue, maybe some of that can translate over to a better performance as a character. Take an improv acting class?

Maybe someone out there who has actually done acting has some good advise. That's what you're really doing.