Asmodeus vs 4 lower deity

[Kimras]

can the lower deities win or would Asmodeus just annihilate them this is taking place in hell

[Kazudo]

More context please. What kinda of deities, what stats and general feels are we going for, what kind of builds do the deities have, what kind of trek have they had to go through to get Asmodeus, what level of the nine hells are they in, what are the circumstances of the encounter, what kind of tactics is Asmodeus using, what kind of gear do the group have, what are their resistances, etc. etc. etc. etc.

[Flickerdart]

Presumably you mean lesser deities (rank 6-10 gods). They would trounce Asmodeus - a lesser deity can have Alter Reality, up to 5 avatars (with Gift of Life so they can bring each other and the deities back as a standard action), literally craft artifacts, Supreme Initiative to always go first...not to mention the normal stuff they get from having 40 levels.

[Brookshw]

The gods could take him easily if were talking a straightforward fight using the BoVD or FC stats (which I personally don't recommend). Taking the fluff into account big A would never give them a chance to fight him unless it was on his terms.

[Red Fel]

It's questionable whether the deities would be allowed to fight Asmodeus, period; or want to. The Pact Primeval gives him authority to do what he does; a direct assault on him personally would likely constitute a violation of the Pact, and would disrupt the cosmology. (Naturally, when his Devils stage major attacks, he can't be held responsible for their individual actions. Naturally.)

So the Lawful Good deities probably wouldn't engage with him for that reason. They would likely attempt to prevent the NG and CG deities from engaging as well, on the basis that, as the scholar Spengler once posited, "It would be bad." So that rules out Good.

Neutral (LN, CN and TN) deities would have no incentive to fight him. They don't have a stand on the Good-versus-Evil thing. The LN deities probably even respect him, because if nothing else, he always keeps his contracts.

So that leaves Evil. I find it unlikely that LE deities would attack Asmodeus directly. Not because they necessarily like him, but because it strikes me that most LE deities would prefer dealings and manipulation to direct combat (Hextor being a notable exception, but he's a bit preoccupied with his divine nemesis). NE, as embodied by the Yugoloths, has too much fun profiting from the Blood War; they have no reason to stop Asmodeus from doing anything. And CE deities are, well, CE; the likelihood of them banding together to do anything is already slim to none.

But let's assume that deities did engage with Asmodeus. According to the OP, this takes place in the Nine Hells; that's Asmodeus' turf. Deities rarely leave their divine realms, because in such a place that deity is all-powerful, while outside they are subject to attack by their enemies. If these deities sent avatars or proxies to engage with Asmodeus, Asmodeus would win, because those avatars etc. are mere reproductions, while As is the real thing, and he's on his home turf to boot - a plane that is basically an extension of his own will.

If, on the other hand, the deities arrived in person, there would be trouble. Asmodeus, at least in 3.5, isn't a deity. He doesn't have salient divine abilities the way deities do, despite being a major power in the cosmology. But he wouldn't be alone.

Because if any deity - any deity, Good or Evil or other - showed up in the Nine Hells, their enemies would see an advantage. Either a chance to gain influence over Asmodeus, or a chance to eliminate a distracted foe. Either way, it wouldn't be a battle of four against one. It would be some indeterminate number against four, with Asmodeus sitting off on the sidelines watching amusedly as the puppets dance on his strings.

Because if a quartet of deities came to Hell to fight Asmodeus, that's clearly what he intended all along.

[Flickerdart]

If these deities sent avatars or proxies to engage with Asmodeus, Asmodeus would win, because those avatars etc. are mere reproductions, while As is the real thing, and he's on his home turf to boot - a plane that is basically an extension of his own will.
By that logic, a deity's avatar couldn't beat a dirt farmer, because the dirt farmer is the real thing on his home plane. A lesser deity's avatars (with divine ranks from 3 to 5) would wreck Asmodeus, stat block to stat block.

[Red Fel]

By that logic, a deity's avatar couldn't beat a dirt farmer, because the dirt farmer is the real thing on his home plane. A lesser deity's avatars (with divine ranks from 3 to 5) would wreck Asmodeus, stat block to stat block.

It's not a fair comparison. A dirt farmer is insignificant in the cosmology (with apologies to any dirt farmers reading this post), while Asmodeus is one of the defining representations of Lawful Evil. A dirt farmer's will extends to his extremities, if that far, and no further; Asmodeus' will extends throughout his entire plane, and can be felt by each of his subjects if he so wills it.

I will grant you that some avatars might be able to give As a run for his money in a straight throw-down, but this isn't happening in a vacuum. It's happening in the Nine Hells, and you have to develop some rather severe hypotheticals (no outside interference, all other Devils and Archdevils are out of town, Asmodeus cannot draw power from his plane) in order to justify Asmodeus being unable to turn that to his advantage.

[Psyren]

It varies from edition to edition. 3.5 Asmodeus is at the bottom of the food chain because he's still planning. Those plans come to fruition in 4e when he ends up eating Azuth and becoming a greater deity.

In PF, he's also a greater deity and so would trounce just about anyone.

[Werephilosopher]

By that logic, a deity's avatar couldn't beat a dirt farmer, because the dirt farmer is the real thing on his home plane. A lesser deity's avatars (with divine ranks from 3 to 5) would wreck Asmodeus, stat block to stat block.

I don't see how you made the connection between "being the real thing on your home plane" and "having utter control over the plane as an extension of one's own will." It's not really a fair analogy.

[RedMage125]

If you go by the information in Manual of the Planes and BoVD, Asmodeus may very well be some kind of fallen deity. And the form everyone sees may just be his avatar, his true form enormous and miles-long, nestled in the bottom of the Serpent's Coil in Nessus.

A Lesser Deity may defeat the Asmodeus for which stats appear in the BoVD, but he is the master of Hell, and could likely send another avatar after that deity, who would be weakened from combat with the first one, to finish it off. Asmodeus likely has at his disposal the means to steal their divine essence and become a true deity himself after that. Such as what he did to Azuth when the latter fell into his demesne.

[Twilightwyrm]

If you go by the information in Manual of the Planes and BoVD, Asmodeus may very well be some kind of fallen deity. And the form everyone sees may just be his avatar, his true form enormous and miles-long, nestled in the bottom of the Serpent's Coil in Nessus.

A Lesser Deity may defeat the Asmodeus for which stats appear in the BoVD, but he is the master of Hell, and could likely send another avatar after that deity, who would be weakened from combat with the first one, to finish it off. Asmodeus likely has at his disposal the means to steal their divine essence and become a true deity himself after that. Such as what he did to Azuth when the latter fell into his demesne.

You know, there is a lot of conjecture on the power and capabilities of Asmodeus going on here (example: see the sections highlighted). Between here, and the thread on invading the nine hells, one would think Asmodeus is some all knowing master of reality that can retcon any action anyone takes against him to secretly serve his own ends. Don't get me wrong, to properly manage the Nine Hells, Asmodeus pretty much has to be one of the more duplicitous, manipulative and powerful non-diety beings in the planes. But, then again, Demogoron is the effective ruler of the plurality of the Infinite Layers of the Abyss, a far more chaotic and less manageable domain than the Nine Hells, if not by much, and he needs to contend not only with his individual psychosis, but the fact that, in addition to every other demon in hell, his own heads are scheming against each other. My point is, as with Demogoron, I'm thinking Asmodeus's successful management of the Nine Hells, even with the thin vernier of law, has more to do with him being more individually potent than at least any other two Lords of Hell combined than it does with his ability to scheme. "The strong do what they will, the weak suffer what they must" and all that Hobbsian and/or Machiavellian realpolitik stuff. And, as much as he might set up Hell for his benefit, when you assume that individual power is the main driving force behind Asmodeus's rule, well, on an individual power to individual power basis, Asmodeus < Four Lesser Dieties. Remember, these guys potentially have the ability to kill his followers with a thought, say "No" to any divination or information gathering he might employ, craft their own Ruby Wands, or any number of other things that can flat out tell him "No". Sure, once they actually get there, Asmodeus likely has enough to offer so as to dissuade them from stomping him into the ground, but you cannot just assume he will see them coming and plan accordingly. He can only, typically, do this to the other archdevils because, as stated, has set up the Nine Hells for his benefit. But the multiverse is not his domain, and his power does not extend that far. He's not the Lady of Pain. So in conclusion, while from DM to DM this may very, I'm inclined to think Asmodeus's ability to grant himself omniscience, spawn infinite copies of himself at will, and rip the divinity out of divine beings has been greatly exaggerated.

[Red Fel]

You know, there is a lot of conjecture on the power and capabilities of Asmodeus going on here (example: see the sections highlighted). Between here, and the thread on invading the nine hells, one would think Asmodeus is some all knowing master of reality that can retcon any action anyone takes against him to secretly serve his own ends.

I agree. A lot of people, myself included, seem to enjoy depicting him in this manner. Perhaps not as severely as that last bit - not an "all knowing master of reality that can retcon any action anyone takes against him" - but definitely a supremely crafty being operating on the level of an n+1 schemer.

Most importantly, Asmodeus - like many major players in the cosmology - is in many ways a set piece. To some on the board (again, myself included) the stats are for show; Asmodeus, like a number of beings, operates on such a high level, and acts with such overarching device and guile, that he's more of a plot device than a person.

Villains can be confronted, thwarted, killed. But for some - again, myself included - Asmodeus is less a villain and more a force of the universe, a law as immutable as gravity. He's whatever the DM needs him to be.


Don't get me wrong, to properly manage the Nine Hells, Asmodeus pretty much has to be one of the more duplicitous, manipulative and powerful non-diety beings in the planes. But, then again, Demogoron is the effective ruler of the plurality of the Infinite Layers of the Abyss, a far more chaotic and less manageable domain than the Nine Hells, if not by much, and he needs to contend not only with his individual psychosis, but the fact that, in addition to every other demon in hell, his own heads are scheming against each other.

Demogorgon isn't actually the "effective ruler" of the Abyss; he's simply the biggest, strongest, loudest bully in the playground. His control over layers other than his own is, at best, slightly more effective than that of other Archdemons, owing almost exclusively to the fact that he is stronger. Demons recognize his power, but not his authority. If Demogorgon lost his powers tomorrow, he would be swarmed and ripped apart by his so-called subjects before he could draw breath.

By contrast, Devils recognize Asmodeus' authority. Not because he's the strongest - which he is - but because he's the smartest, most capable, most ruthless, most Diabolical Devil there is. He is respected because he is LE. If Asmodeus lost his powers tomorrow, his subjects would wait months - even years - before taking any action, likely convinced that it's some sort of trick or trap. Some would curry favor, hoping to gain his pleasure by offering assistance; others would start moving their pawns, but never openly.

Demogorgon derives any authority he has from raw power. Asmodeus derives his authority from the fact that his power isn't the only thing that makes him terrifying.


My point is, as with Demogoron, I'm thinking Asmodeus's successful management of the Nine Hells, even with the thin vernier of law, has more to do with him being more individually potent than at least any other two Lords of Hell combined than it does with his ability to scheme. "The strong do what they will, the weak suffer what they must" and all that Hobbsian and/or Machiavellian realpolitik stuff.

Without question, Asmodeus is stronger than the other Archdevils. But mere raw power alone doesn't get you authority in the Hells the way it can in the Abyss. In the Abyss, you can crunch skulls until people listen to you. In the Hells, you can crunch skulls for a thousand years and never get anywhere. Power isn't enough. Asmodeus is the ruler because he is ineffable, manipulative, calculating, and constantly in motion. He knows exactly how to motivate the other Archdevils, and that knowledge isn't mutual. His authority doesn't just stem from power, but from the cunning to use it (or not use it) effectively.


And, as much as he might set up Hell for his benefit, when you assume that individual power is the main driving force behind Asmodeus's rule, well, on an individual power to individual power basis, Asmodeus < Four Lesser Dieties. Remember, these guys potentially have the ability to kill his followers with a thought, say "No" to any divination or information gathering he might employ, craft their own Ruby Wands, or any number of other things that can flat out tell him "No".

Entirely valid. In a straight-up four-on-one stat-match, Asmodeus will probably lose. But given that he is the archetypical scheming evil genius to inspire all other scheming evil geniuses, it seems highly improbable that events would ever actually reach that point.


Sure, once they actually get there, Asmodeus likely has enough to offer so as to dissuade them from stomping him into the ground, but you cannot just assume he will see them coming and plan accordingly. He can only, typically, do this to the other archdevils because, as stated, has set up the Nine Hells for his benefit. But the multiverse is not his domain, and his power does not extend that far. He's not the Lady of Pain.

Partially correct. Hell is his absolute domain. But Evil is very much his playground. In fact, the Pact Primeval grants him unique authority in the field of Evil. He may not be Vecna, whose knowledge of secrets is absolute, or Wee Jas, with her perfect grasp of the arcane, but Asmodeus in many ways embodies Evil itself. To assume that he would be unprepared - or at least, not violently paranoid - for an enemy invasion is almost as faulty an assumption as assuming that he is all-knowing.

I agree that he may or may not be aware of the plans against him, but he has reigned in Hell for aeons. Think of how many contingencies a paranoid epic-level Wizard would create in that time. You've seen the builds. They could solo gods. Asmodeus is all that and a bag of infernal chips. (Now in fiery hot jalapeno!) He literally has the souls of some of these Wizards at his disposal. He has had infinitely more time, and infinitely more resources, to prepare for every possibility. He has been collecting whatever dirt and influence he can on every being of which he has become aware. He is that paranoid. So much so that it doesn't matter if he actually knows someone is coming, or who, or when; he has something prepared.


So in conclusion, while from DM to DM this may very, I'm inclined to think Asmodeus's ability to grant himself omniscience, spawn infinite copies of himself at will, and rip the divinity out of divine beings has been greatly exaggerated.

I think your exaggeration is proof enough. I wouldn't play Asmodeus as omniscient, infinitely spawning, and god-ripping-out-I-don't-even-know-where-this-one-is-going. I would, however, play him as infinitely composed, prepared, and crafty. And I don't think that's unreasonable.

[Twilightwyrm]

I agree. A lot of people, myself included, seem to enjoy depicting him in this manner. Perhaps not as severely as that last bit - not an "all knowing master of reality that can retcon any action anyone takes against him" - but definitely a supremely crafty being operating on the level of an n+1 schemer.

Most importantly, Asmodeus - like many major players in the cosmology - is in many ways a set piece. To some on the board (again, myself included) the stats are for show; Asmodeus, like a number of beings, operates on such a high level, and acts with such overarching device and guile, that he's more of a plot device than a person.

Villains can be confronted, thwarted, killed. But for some - again, myself included - Asmodeus is less a villain and more a force of the universe, a law as immutable as gravity. He's whatever the DM needs him to be.[/quote]

By making him operate on the level of n+1 schemer, pretty much by definition, means you are doing exactly this. By DMing him as such, you are automatically assuming (retroactively if need be) that he is prepared for whatever someone is trying to so. Or am I missing something here?
And sure, I can see, in most cases, using him in this way, because in most cases, the PCs are cosmologically so far beneath him that using him as such only makes sense. But on a world where things like the sun, water, nature itself, and indeed quite possibly somewhere gravity, fall under the domain of gods, when such forces collide it does not due to treat the gods, by all accounts greater cosmological forces than Asmodeus, the same as normal PCs (even if they are PCs).


Demogorgon isn't actually the "effective ruler" of the Abyss; he's simply the biggest, strongest, loudest bully in the playground. His control over layers other than his own is, at best, slightly more effective than that of other Archdemons, owing almost exclusively to the fact that he is stronger. Demons recognize his power, but not his authority. If Demogorgon lost his powers tomorrow, he would be swarmed and ripped apart by his so-called subjects before he could draw breath.

By contrast, Devils recognize Asmodeus' authority. Not because he's the strongest - which he is - but because he's the smartest, most capable, most ruthless, most Diabolical Devil there is. He is respected because he is LE. If Asmodeus lost his powers tomorrow, his subjects would wait months - even years - before taking any action, likely convinced that it's some sort of trick or trap. Some would curry favor, hoping to gain his pleasure by offering assistance; others would start moving their pawns, but never openly.

Demogorgon derives any authority he has from raw power. Asmodeus derives his authority from the fact that his power isn't the only thing that makes him terrifying.

I'd say the fact that Asmodeus has so many devils scheming against him as clear evidence of the fact that they do not respect his authority. The fact that he's needed to freeze archdevils in glaciers and turn others into layers of hell isn't something you'd need to do to subjects that actually respect your authority. All the intelligence, the ruthlessness, all factor into his perception of "power", but without his individual potency, he's little more than a particularly proficient schemer, a con man without the ability to back his plays. From the DMG "The devils of the Nine Hells all obey a higher law than themselves, but all that really means is that they chafe and rebel against their status. Most will undertake any plot or action, no matter how foul, to advance themselves". The Nine Hells are superficially structured anarchy, with the only difference between them and the Abyss being a slightly vernier of subtly and significantly less insanity. Just as with Asmodeus, if Demogoron suddenly lost his powers, the deziens of the abyss would not necessarily take any action against him, because (unlike what you seem to presume) they also would not immediately know that he lost his power. He is legendarily insane, so none of his actions would necessarily dictate that he has lost his power. It would be anywhere from hours to centuries, depending on how long it took for an otherwise fearful demon to be compelled by its own insane ambition to throw its life away attacking him. By contrast, the other archdevils might suspect a trick, but when Asmodeus stops appearing everywhere, and exclusively acting through intermediaries, and the ice around Levistus melts from his hellfire, they will figure out what is up, and all his reputation and scheming will accomplish is perhaps letting him vacate the throne and scape before everyone else catches on.


Without question, Asmodeus is stronger than the other Archdevils. But mere raw power alone doesn't get you authority in the Hells the way it can in the Abyss. In the Abyss, you can crunch skulls until people listen to you. In the Hells, you can crunch skulls for a thousand years and never get anywhere. Power isn't enough. Asmodeus is the ruler because he is ineffable, manipulative, calculating, and constantly in motion. He knows exactly how to motivate the other Archdevils, and that knowledge isn't mutual. His authority doesn't just stem from power, but from the cunning to use it (or not use it) effectively.

Crunching skulls, perhaps not. But substituting it for torture, glacial entrapment, and forming your corpse into a layer of hell only really gets you style points, it still proves that your power is the only thing keeping you in your position. The Nine Hells are just as conquerable with sheer power as the abyss (actually probably moreso, given its more finite nature). The differences is, Asmodeus exercised his power more often, and in a more rational manner than Demogoron. His power long ago created the paradigm of law that he forces all other devils to operate in, and as such he controls the game. But he only controls the game in hell. He is simply a player, albeit an effective one, everywhere else.


Entirely valid. In a straight-up four-on-one stat-match, Asmodeus will probably lose. But given that he is the archetypical scheming evil genius to inspire all other scheming evil geniuses, it seems highly improbable that events would ever actually reach that point.

Again, Asmodeus is intelligent, not omniscient. True, he may take steps to prevent theoretical events from ever reaching that point, but be cannot see all futures. He can do what he can, but if the gods really want him in that position, he will be in that position. And before you ask, why hasn't this happened yet, I would answer because Asmodeus has a powerful deterrent: gods gain power from their worshipers. For four lesser deities did kill Asmodeus, he has enough loyal agents, and enough sway with the other archdevils, that their worshipers would be genocided, in retaliation by his agents, and to secure their position by whoever steps up to take his place in hell, so as to prevent that sort of thing from gaining a precedent.


Partially correct. Hell is his absolute domain. But Evil is very much his playground. In fact, the Pact Primeval grants him unique authority in the field of Evil. He may not be Vecna, whose knowledge of secrets is absolute, or Wee Jas, with her perfect grasp of the arcane, but Asmodeus in many ways embodies Evil itself. To assume that he would be unprepared - or at least, not violently paranoid - for an enemy invasion is almost as faulty an assumption as assuming that he is all-knowing.

I agree that he may or may not be aware of the plans against him, but he has reigned in Hell for aeons. Think of how many contingencies a paranoid epic-level Wizard would create in that time. You've seen the builds. They could solo gods. Asmodeus is all that and a bag of infernal chips. (Now in fiery hot jalapeno!) He literally has the souls of some of these Wizards at his disposal. He has had infinitely more time, and infinitely more resources, to prepare for every possibility. He has been collecting whatever dirt and influence he can on every being of which he has become aware. He is that paranoid. So much so that it doesn't matter if he actually knows someone is coming, or who, or when; he has something prepared.

See, this is a bit of a faulty assumption. Optimization is a use of game mechanics that define this universe in such a manner as to create powerful characters. Saying "look at these optimized, epic level wizards, and how much more powerful than these gods, as stated in this non-optimized manner" isn't actually a fair or realistic assessment, as said epic wizards could easily solo Asmodeus as stated. If we assume all things being equal where optimization is concerned, it still goes gods>Asmodeus>most epic level wizards. If Asmodeus has had that long to prepare, we need assume any gods have done likewise, within the limits of their dogma, but with the greater power and authority due to a god. Assuming Asmodeus would be optimized, or act in an optimal manner, while assuming the gods would just act as stated is granting Asmodeus undue favoritism, at the very least. As for Asmodeus, yes he is justifiably somewhat paranoid, but from everything I've actually read, paranoia isn't really much of his thing (likely because he knows paranoia tend to invite the appearance of weakness). Rather, he enjoys creating extreme paranoia in his enemies, "allies", servants, bystanders, and the unaffiliated just for fun. He is cruel before he is paranoid, he is a king before he is a strategist. He has had experience, to be sure, but he is also arrogant. And I think, when considering Asmodues, these things are often forgotten in preference for seeing him as just infinity prepared magnificent bastard with a tendency towards evil.


I think your exaggeration is proof enough. I wouldn't play Asmodeus as omniscient, infinitely spawning, and god-ripping-out-I-don't-even-know-where-this-one-is-going. I would, however, play him as infinitely composed, prepared, and crafty. And I don't think that's unreasonable.

Saying "I wouldn't play him as omniscient, just infinity crafty and prepared" is like saying "I don't choose infinite, I choose infinity-1". Its an excuse for in practice doing exactly the same thing you are saying you don't do in theory. Great for Asmodian contract law, so props there, but not so much for arguing a point.