I need some reassurance.

[Mojake]

My new party of 4 (all level 1):
Human Rogue, Eladrin Wizard, Dragonborn Fighter, Dwarf Shaman.

I'm trying to work out an introductory dungeon for them, and the DM Guide isn't helping. It's saying I can get away with putting very powerful creatures against my party. I'm looking at a n+3 Skirmisher vs them, and it looks as though it may kick their ass alone; but the DM Guide is basically saying "**** it, throw a couple more in, it won't hurt!".

I don't wanna TPK in the first hour, but the DM Guide is making me second-guess myself. Is a single Deathjump Spider too easy against 4 level 1 PCs?:smallmad:

[killer_monk]

It's greatly varies depending on the level of optimization your players are doing.

Usually, a single spider shouldn't TPK. Two spiders should even be alright.

One thing to account for it that your PC's can easily swarm one or two monsters. Making the fight trivial at best.

You could also always ease them into it. Throw one spider against them at the beginning and, depending how well they do, set the number of spiders appropriately for the next fight.

Try to get a feel for your PCs, then go from there.

[Mojake]

Okay I'll try that, I tried to discourage optimisation in favour of just a fun character. I'll extend the playtesting tendrils and see what happens. I'll have it scarper away when it's bloodied anyway :smallbiggrin:

[Inevitability]

4 1st-level players can handle an encounter worth 400 XP. That's about two spiders + a few minions (spiderlings?). Trust me, they'll be able to handle it if they are even remotely optimized.

EDIT: And don't forget, for every action the spiders are getting, the PC's are getting two. That makes more of a difference than you'd think.

[Tegu8788]

Look at the DM XP budget table. Four Lvl 1 players should be 400 XP worth of monsters. So, grab up to 400 XP worth of bad guys, trying to avoid things that are more than 5 +/- their level. If I recall a Lvl 10 minion is 100 XP, but that's not fun or fair for a first level party.

A decent party can cake walk at level fights, +3 monsters and XP budget are a challenge. I almost always throw +2/4 level monsters and +2 levels worth of monsters. My guys are mixed in terms of optimization, so it's a fair balance.

Edit: And when in doubt, throw in a minion or two. Send some in waves, otherwise they all get wiped out in the first round.

[Kimera757]

My new party of 4 (all level 1):
Human Rogue, Eladrin Wizard, Dragonborn Fighter, Dwarf Shaman.

I'm trying to work out an introductory dungeon for them, and the DM Guide isn't helping. It's saying I can get away with putting very powerful creatures against my party. I'm looking at a n+3 Skirmisher vs them, and it looks as though it may kick their ass alone; but the DM Guide is basically saying "**** it, throw a couple more in, it won't hurt!".

I don't wanna TPK in the first hour, but the DM Guide is making me second-guess myself. Is a single Deathjump Spider too easy against 4 level 1 PCs?:smallmad:

At low levels, PCs cannot take on higher-level creatures, because they keep missing. I'm not saying they cannot take on higher-level encounters, but higher-level creatures are just too swingy.

Instead of a 4th-level skirmisher, why not use two 1st-level skirmishers (per PC), or an elite 1st-level skirmisher, or some combo? That's worth 200 XP (similar to 175 XP) and gives more options. (For instance, two jumping spiders have two chances to jump over the fighter and bite the wizard or shaman!)


Spider, Deathjump
Level 1 Skirmisher
Medium natural beast (spider)
XP 100
HP 26; Bloodied 13
AC 15; Fortitude 13; Reflex 14; Will 12
Speed 6, climb 0 (spider climb)
Resist 5 poison
Initiative +5
Perception +5
Tremorsense 5
Traits
Web Walk
The spider ignores difficult terrain composed of webs.
Standard Actions
m Bite (poison) • At-Will
Attack: Melee 1 (one creature); +6 vs. AC
Hit: 1d6 + 1 (4) damage, and ongoing 5 poison damage (save ends).
M Death From Above (poison) • Recharge when first bloodied
Effect: The spider jumps up to 6 squares. This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks. After the jump, the spider uses bite, dealing an extra 1d6 (3) damage and knocking the target prone on a hit.
Prodigious Leap • Encounter
Effect: The spider jumps up to 10 squares. This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.
Skills Athletics +6, Stealth +8
Str 12 (+1)
Dex 16 (+3)
Wis 10 (+0)
Con 10 (+0)
Int 1 (–5)
Cha 6 (–2)
Alignment unaligned*****Languages —
© 2010 Wizards of the Coast LLC, a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. All rights reserved. This formatted statistics block has been generated using the D&D Adventure Tools.

Spider, Deathjump
Level 1 Elite Skirmisher
Medium natural beast (spider)
XP 200
HP 52; Bloodied 26
AC 15; Fortitude 13; Reflex 14; Will 12
Speed 6, climb 0 (spider climb)
Resist 5 poison
Saving Throws +2; Action Points 1
Initiative +5
Perception +5
Tremorsense 5
Traits
Spider's Alacrity
The spider makes two initiative checks, and takes a full turn on each initiative result. It receives one immediate action between the end of one of its turns and the start of another.
Spider's Stability
When an effect forces the spider to move, it moves 1 less square than the effect specifies. When an attack should knock the spider prone, it can roll a saving throw to avoid falling prone.
Web Walk
The spider ignores difficult terrain composed of webs.
Standard Actions
m Bite (poison) • At-Will
Attack: Melee 1 (one creature); +6 vs. AC
Hit: 1d6 + 1 (4) damage, and ongoing 5 poison damage (save ends).
M Death From Above (poison) • Recharge 5 6
Effect: The spider jumps up to 6 squares. This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks. After the jump, the spider uses bite, dealing an extra 1d6 (3) damage and knocking the target prone on a hit.
Prodigious Leap • Encounter
Effect: The spider jumps up to 10 squares. This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.
Triggered Actions
M Bloodied Leap (poison) • Encounter
Trigger: The spider is first bloodied.
Effect (Free): Death from above recharges, and the spider uses it.
Desperate Leap • Encounter
Trigger: The spider is hit by an attack.
Effect (Free): The spider jumps up to 10 squares. This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.
Skills Athletics +6, Stealth +8
Str 12 (+1)
Dex 16 (+3)
Wis 10 (+0)
Con 10 (+0)
Int 1 (–5)
Cha 6 (–2)
Alignment unaligned*****Languages —
© 2010 Wizards of the Coast LLC, a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. All rights reserved. This formatted statistics block has been generated using the D&D Adventure Tools.

[Epinephrine]

At low levels, PCs cannot take on higher-level creatures, because they keep missing. I'm not saying they cannot take on higher-level encounters, but higher-level creatures are just too swingy.

It's only a level+3 creature. It has 18 AC, and a starting character with a +3 prof. weapon, an expertise feat, and an 18 (or a starting 20 with a +2 weapon) has a +8 to hit, hitting 55% of the time. Flank for 65% of the time. Some characters will have a class based +1 to hit, and they may start with a 20 primary and use a +3 prof. weapon, meaning that they could hit 75% of the time with CA.
At 52 HP, the characters will need a few whacks to kill it, sure. Assume 1 striker hits for a reasonable 15 each round (and the other misses), and the rest of the party contributes another 12 damage, it's 2 rounds. Hardly a threat.

[Kimera757]

It's only a level+3 creature. It has 18 AC, and a starting character with a +3 prof. weapon, an expertise feat, and an 18 (or a starting 20 with a +2 weapon) has a +8 to hit, hitting 55% of the time. Flank for 65% of the time. Some characters will have a class based +1 to hit, and they may start with a 20 primary and use a +3 prof. weapon, meaning that they could hit 75% of the time with CA.

A warpriest could start with a +2 proficiency weapon, 18 key stat, and expertise, giving +7 to hit, or a 45% chance of hitting. A starting spellcaster might have a +5 to hit NADs (starting 18 and +1 expertise) and have fewer options for gaining attack bonuses (you normally can't flank or charge with spells, it's harder to get combat advantage, you might not have a really good orb, your leader might miss with their buff-granting attack, etc).

Of course, one single creature can also get locked down pretty easily. Most solos have at least some sort of lockdown protection, but a simple 4th-level spider does not. One lucky hit and it might be crippled for the rest of the (short) combat. That's why I call it "swingy". It's too easy for the fight to be unsatisfying.

[Akodo Makama]

My new party of 4 (all level 1):
Human Rogue, Eladrin Wizard, Dragonborn Fighter, Dwarf Shaman.

I'm trying to work out an introductory dungeon for them, and the DM Guide isn't helping. It's saying I can get away with putting very powerful creatures against my party. I'm looking at a n+3 Skirmisher vs them, and it looks as though it may kick their ass alone; but the DM Guide is basically saying "**** it, throw a couple more in, it won't hurt!".

I don't wanna TPK in the first hour, but the DM Guide is making me second-guess myself. Is a single Deathjump Spider too easy against 4 level 1 PCs?:smallmad:

Also, for people used to prior editions of D&D, every 4e encounter looks quite deadly. That's because a 4e party is expected to use much of their HP every encounter, and then use surges to replenish in between, rather than needing to stretch a single pool of HP to last the entire day.

When adjusting encounters for my party, my rule of thumb is "If no party member was unconscious at least once during the encounter, and anybody had over half their HP at the end, it was too easy. Boost the monsters by 10% (attack or damage)".

[Epinephrine]

A warpriest could start with a +2 proficiency weapon, 18 key stat, and expertise, giving +7 to hit, or a 45% chance of hitting.

That'd be a 50% chance of hitting, but sure.

How swingy could it be? Assume 1 striker, 1 leader, and two others, average AC for the party of 16. Give them an average damage of 1d8+4 for 3 party members and 1d10+8 for the striker (for a weak striker). They need to do 52 damage. I'd guess that half the time they could have a bonus to hit of +2, between CA from dazes, prones, flanking, and leader-granted bonuses, so call it a +1 per attack for simplicity and you have a 55% hit rate, and them getting hit 70% of the time by the enemy (assuming no marking), but with a single foe I think it's fair to say it should be marked, and thus choosing between attacking the lower AC folks or the higher AC defender, so it should have at best a 60% chance to hit, assuming nobody else lands effects on it. Each character will have over 20 HP, and probably 24 or more for a 6 HP healing surge, call it ~10 with the healer throwing a +1d6 bonus. So the enemy deals an average of 6.5 with a hit, followed by ongoing 5. The first two times this happens to a character, the healer throws a minor action heal to reverse 10 of the first 11.5 damage; the remainder of the damage is pretty inconsequential. Each character can still afford to be hit once, and can use a std action if needed for a second wind. So there's really no danger from the first 2 attacks, since you've prevented much of the damage, and the third hit still probably doesn't drop anyone. The 4th hit could, if it's on a player who has already been hit or is suffering badly from the ongoing. How much damage do they deal in 4 rounds? 4.85 per swing for the non strikers, 7.65 per swing for the striker. So they average 22.2 damage per round with these bad stats, killing it on average on the 3rd round of attacks. They'd need very bad rolls not to kill it by 4th round.

That's a pretty lousy build, with nobody better than an 18 primary stat with a +2 weapon, only one striker with pretty poor damage, and adding no off-turn punishment or bonus damage from zones/effects, encounter powers, no action points and yet they'd on average kill it before it could reasonably kill anyone, even assuming it hits with every attack and rolls maximum damage, the healer rolls minimum on the heals, and nobody ever makes a saving throw. A single level 4 standard just isn't a big threat. A strong party could probably very reliably take it out on round 2 without needing action points or dailies.