The Popularuty of 3.5

[Snownine]

With 5e rolling out this summer I got to thinking; I am fairly new to D&D but have noticed that almost everyone I meet in person plays 3.5. I have never met anyone that plays 4e and only one that played the original AD&D. Is 3.5 really the most popular or is my sample just not indicative of the population? If 3.5 is the most popular, why is this the case?

[PersonMan]

Well, fourth edition changed so many things that a lot of people didn't switch over to it when it came out because they didn't like it (other reasons, such as "I don't want to spend a pile of money for new books" also played and still play a role here), hence the large number of people who still play 3.5. I don't have statistics about the entire population of DnD players, but I'd expect that the majority would be split between 4e and 3.5, with only a small number on earlier editions for several reasons (such as them being out of print for over a decade).

[Twilightwyrm]

Although it is out of print, accessibility and ease of use is another big consideration. When wotc made large sections of the game OGL, and thus available for free, this meant that learning and getting into the game was made much, much, easier. AD&D lacks this, as it was created pre-Internet as we know it, and generally lacked 3.5's accessibility. And 4e, well, due to the lack of OGL, system specific materiel, and the fact that, unless you've memorized every power you have available, basically everyone needs a copy of the PHB (at MINIMUM) with them whenever they play, reduces accessibility and ease of learning the system. I could go on about what I believe to be stupid changes they made, but I recognize that many of them would be because I learned 3.5 and dislike differences that a person that first learned 4e wouldn't see or mind. The d20srd.org website is perhaps the best example of this differences. Try as I might, I've never been able to find a 4e equivalent.
Let's take another example to illustrate my point: Pathfinder. Essentially 3.75, Pathfinder updates, fixes and changes a lot of the 3.5 system. While granted some amount of ease of use is built in by virtue of many people already being familiar with 3.5, I would say that the fact that they took it a step further and put pretty much all non-campaign specific material for free on a website has massively increased the ease of use, ease of learning and accessibility. Without this, Pathfinder might have been a somewhat interesting "knock off" or 3.5, championed by a few fans. With it...well it gets dubbed 3.75.

[Jigawatts]

In my experience, at this current moment in time, Pathfinder reigns supreme. I am fortunate enough to have a large and extremely popular FLGS (they have upgraded in size 3 times, and just recently moved to a new larger location again). I can say that probably about 80% of the groups that play there play Pathfinder, with it being the stores largest selling RPG line (by a wide margin, per the owner).

Most of the other RPGs that are ran are of another genre, like Star Wars or 40k. I haven't seen anyone playing 3.5 there and I know for a fact that no one plays 4E (again, per the owner). Also everyone I know that plays home games also plays PF as their "D&D system" of choice.

Now, obviously, this is just a single sampling, but I have personally found it to be pretty indicative of the current market.

[Turk Mannion]

I am a long time player of 3.5 who has dabbled briefly in 4.0 and even more briefly in Pathfinder right when it came out. I can honestly say I love 3.5, warts and all.

Where I live, it seems to be all about 3.5 campaigns. However, in different parts of the country where I have gamer friends, they can't find a 3.5 game at all. Pathfinder and 4.0 are the only thing. I wish I could explain why, but as long as you find a version you love, stick to it. Even though I will test out 5.0 and give it a ride, I am not sure I see myself leaving 3.5.

[DeltaEmil]

People can and do play multiple games suited to their needs.

I play 3.5, 4e, and Shadowrun 4e.

[Alex12]

I think the ease of access of 3.5 is one of the big things. If you've got the SRD, you don't really need the core books for much, so it makes it easier to get into.

[atemu1234]

It's popular simply because it's better. Actually, I personally like it simply because it's the system that I, as DM, find most easy to use and control and make things in. 4e is too combat based, not allowing the complexities (and lack thereof, in some cases) of 3.5e.

[Telonius]

I love it for the same reason I love Rube Goldberg-style contraptions. It's unwieldy, unbalanced, ridiculous most of the time - but with enough kludges and jumping through hoops, it will do just about anything you want it to do. The fluff and the crunch aren't totally separate, and they aren't totally unified. Playing one class just feels different than playing another, and I like that; but no class (except maybe Paladin) is completely straitjacketed into a single role. That's actually a pretty hard balance to strike.

[ArqArturo]

I'm a little torn on this because, while I am PF's evangelist, a group of players prefer 5e because 'PF/3.5 is broken', and 5e 'is more balanced'. Also, one of the players says that the PF paladin core vs. 3.5 paladin core 'is weak'.

That, and another group of players is devoted to 3.5, so I'm stuck with my books, unable to play PF, yet I love the system (sand panda).

[Soranar]

It's pretty simple really

1rst thing I see , price

-a casual search online will find every book published by WOTC for free
-if you just need the phb, you have the SRD as others have mentioned

2nd thing are options

-due to multiclassing, templates , races alternate class features and substitution levels, 3.5 is really really versatile
-other editions simply don't compete in that sector, 3.5 just happened to be the longest running , and most diverse, edition DnD had

finally, the 3.5 community is still very active (just look at these forums)

-a casual search for handbooks will find you a staggering amount of information on how to play nearly every major character type (fighter, barbarian, rogue, wizard, cleric, druid, ranged combattant, mounted combattant, familiar handbook, etc)

-and, since the community is still so large and active, it sustains itself (recruiting new players and reclaiming old ones).

[jedipotter]

3.5 D&D also gets all most all of the legacy players. People that played 1E, D&D, and 2E. 3.5E is the last in that line. A great many gamers moved to 3.5E as it was close to their older edition. Converting a 2e character to 3.5E is easy. If you know the 2E rules, you know most of the 3.5E rules. The game play is close to the same.

The OGL is a huge boost too. Again you have that 2E gamer that wants to play 3.5E, but does not want to spend a ton of money....he can just download everything he needs to play.

4E just fumbled. Maybe some teens, video game players, and such liked it? But the vast majority of legacy gamers just stuck with 3.5E. It is a huge customer base that WotC not only ignores, but actively tries to get rid of as they only want ''new gamer kids''. Sure some of the new players from 3X went to 4E, and it did attract some new gamers(we would hope?).....but it just did not have staying power.

4E also has the no OGL and huge cost problem. Them 4E books cost a lot

[DeadMech]

Before I read OotS I had no interest in playing any pen and paper rpg. And then I found the srd20, a free and easy way to learn and play the game. At this point if I found a group of people playing the game in my area I'd be out in the hobby shops trying to buy up the books.

[atemu1234]

3.5 D&D also gets all most all of the legacy players. People that played 1E, D&D, and 2E. 3.5E is the last in that line. A great many gamers moved to 3.5E as it was close to their older edition. Converting a 2e character to 3.5E is easy. If you know the 2E rules, you know most of the 3.5E rules. The game play is close to the same.

The OGL is a huge boost too. Again you have that 2E gamer that wants to play 3.5E, but does not want to spend a ton of money....he can just download everything he needs to play.

4E just fumbled. Maybe some teens, video game players, and such liked it? But the vast majority of legacy gamers just stuck with 3.5E. It is a huge customer base that WotC not only ignores, but actively tries to get rid of as they only want ''new gamer kids''. Sure some of the new players from 3X went to 4E, and it did attract some new gamers(we would hope?).....but it just did not have staying power.

4E also has the no OGL and huge cost problem. Them 4E books cost a lot

Ironically, at my game store it's easier to get 3e and 4e stuff versus 3.5, simply due to demand. But either way, I prefer 3.5. 4e I tried, but just didn't really like it. A few things I was happy to discover I could port from 4e to 3.5e, some of the items for the most part, but it's too incompatible for me to enjoy.

[TypoNinja]

Cost for me. I've got a bookshelf worth thousands of dollars if you add up the sitcker price on all those books (and mine is not the largest in my group). WotC saying to everybody that those are are worthless and we should spend thousands more on 4th, not that appealing.

System familiarity. I've played 3rd and 3.5 long enough to have quite a few of the rules just floating around my head. I don't often need to check the rule books anymore for most situations, neither does about half my group. Gameplay is smoother because of this. Less book time.

4th also felt a lot like a naked money grab with no real use to the player. If you compare the release history of D&D Editions 4th edition came really fast on the heels of 3.5, which it self wasn't much delayed behind 3rd. Another edition that fast, that discarded compatibility, felt like another edition for the sake of selling us more stuff, not giving us a better game. I suspect this is why pathfinder did better than 4th. They capitalized on the fact that people don't like to be told hundreds or thousands of dollars in books are obsolete. "Try pathfinder, by the way the vast majority of your gaming library is compatible as is, or easily adapted!"

Meanwhile 3.5 was no where close to having its potential exhausted, the Epic level handbook had never been updated to 3.5, Support for higher level games is very light, world building options are not very detailed, which would tie back into giving your party things to do once killing dragons isnt an epic quest anymore, and they still haven't coughed up a damned feat compendium, which I'm pretty sure 9 out of 10 posters here would buy.

[Gavinfoxx]

Let's take another example to illustrate my point: Pathfinder. Essentially 3.75, Pathfinder updates, fixes and changes a lot of the 3.5 system. While granted some amount of ease of use is built in by virtue of many people already being familiar with 3.5, I would say that the fact that they took it a step further and put pretty much all non-campaign specific material for free on a website has massively increased the ease of use, ease of learning and accessibility. Without this, Pathfinder might have been a somewhat interesting "knock off" or 3.5, championed by a few fans. With it...well it gets dubbed 3.75.

Let's see...

I would consider Pathfinder 3.55, Trailblazer 3.60, True20 3.65, D&D with the Frank & K Tomes 3.65, Fantasycraft 3.70, 'Mutants and Dungeons' (both versions) also 3.70, and Legend 3.75, as far as the 'number of things fixed' goes...

Legend:
http://www.ruleofcool.com/
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/47651526/LCGb.html <-- an online character generator, a bit old though, doesn't contain everything or the current version. Were you adding the splat stuff or just using the core rules only?

Other good things to do is use mutants and masterminds 2e to write up D&D-esque characters, a la:
http://greywulf.net/2011/06/03/mutants-and-dragons-third-edition/

Also, someone is trying to make D&D stuff with mutants and masterminds *3e*:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279503
and
http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=706712#p706712

Fantasycraft is found here:
http://www.crafty-games.com/node/348

Trailblazer is found here:
http://badaxegames.com/

The Frank & K tomes are here:
https://sites.google.com/site/middendorfproject/frankpdf

True20 is here:
http://true20.com/

And could you explain what was too simplistic about Legend? Especially with all of the extra options and the extra sets of rules posted online?

[atemu1234]

Another factor I forgot to mention: Compatibility. So many systems were made almost identically to D&D 3.X quite simply because they could. I could run as much third party content as I want. As DM, this made me very happy.

[Brookshw]

The scope and flexibility of 3.0/3.5 vastly outshines older editions (which were great fun!). The additional layers of customization were reason to hang up my 2e spurs though I do miss some of the settings. With sufficient discussion you can use the game (possibly along with other d20 systems) for just about anything. 4e didn't quite manage some of this and when it comes to 5e, well, personally the jury's still out. I'll take a look but the wallet is going to be a factor (admittedly amazon has/had preorders available at a tempting mark down).

It's a good system but nice to step out of now and then, I'm looking forward to doing some shadowrun after this campaign.

[Psyren]

One aspect I see being overlooked in this thread are the massively popular CRPGs that use 3e rules, especially Neverwinter Nights, that introduced an entire generation of gamers (myself included) to the wonders of tabletop RPGs.

But for me I think it is the flexibility. The d20 system is extremely versatile - just about any mechanic they come up with in future editions or even other games can be pilfered and run in a 3e/PF campaign, including things like healing surges, rituals, skill challenges etc.

[BWR]

Also, one of the players says that the PF paladin core vs. 3.5 paladin core 'is weak'..

Huh?
All I can conclude from this is that he never actually read the PF paladin class.

[Anxe]

3.0 was the first edition put out by Wizards too wasn't it? They have a lot more advertising power then TSR. I think that played a part in the initial surge for 3.0 along with the OGL and similarity to previous editions.

[atomicwaffle]

For me it's all about fun. I have the most fun playing 3.5. The 2nd'ers have always struck me as bitter clingers, insisting their version is the best. The rules are confusing, especially in character generation. Also, having a 2nd'er in my D&D group can be...frustrating when a rules question comes into play. Perhaps it's not all 2nd'ers, but every one i've seen or met usually has a huge superiority complex.

Never played 1st or 3rd. Heard they were broken though.

4th. I don't like World of Warcraft.

Pathfinder...i tried pathfinder. From what my friend has told me the DM was subpar so i may have had a bad first experience. It felt...overpowered. I am not an optimizer, but i go out of my way to build characters that don't suck. It seems REALLY easy to build pathfinder characters that don't suck.

Now 3.5. I love 3.5. I played it in highschool, i play it now, i run it. It's fun. I have fun with it. And for me that's what it's about. I have so much fun playing 3.5.

[Pluto!]

OGL was a marketing home run. Through the early 2000s, every system there is released a d20 edition that basically read: "Learn D&D 3e." Finding a "common tongue" is a huge convenience in gaming, where a short rulebook will still often exceed 40 pages of reading, and in that d20 craze, 3e did become a pretty universal language among tabletop gamers.

It's not anywhere near my favorite system - I wouldn't even put it among my top editions of D&D - but it's good enough and I don't need to teach it, and that's enough for it to still be my most played system.

[Vortenger]

I've played 1e, 2e, 2.5e (that's what our resident grognard called all the player's option books) 3 and 3.5e, 4e and now a blend of 3.5 and PF. 4e was fun, and I'll stand by the statement that it was the most balanced and fun board game I ever played. The problem was that it indeed felt like a board game: limited mechanics, limited options, and a sense of sameness between classes.

Compare to 3.5 where if you can think of a concept, we can make a build that comes close. Think of a thing you wish a character could accomplish. We can do something that approximates it, all the way up to possessing your own dimension. Its unwieldy and cumbersome, as others have mentioned, but it can do anything and the base mechanics represent physics reasonably well for a paper/pencil rpg (example here (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2) before the flaming reprisals). Give me a game that allows me to flex my imagination over my rules mastery any day (or both, even better).

[Bronk]

3.5 D&D also gets all most all of the legacy players. People that played 1E, D&D, and 2E. 3.5E is the last in that line. A great many gamers moved to 3.5E as it was close to their older edition. Converting a 2e character to 3.5E is easy. If you know the 2E rules, you know most of the 3.5E rules. The game play is close to the same.


I totally agree with this. It just seemed as if, although the rules might be changing, they were changing for the better... and there was a fairly smooth transition of lore. Like the 'Avatar Trilogy' and the Time of Troubles... you could follow along, and say "I get this. This cool stuff happened, and now things are a little different."

Fourth edition demolished all of that lore and made what they did keep different. They threw away most of the main campaign worlds, and demolished what they did keep, like the Forgotten Realms. Monsters were changed, devils became demons, planes were smashed up all willy nilly. Plus, in the process they managed to derail the Drizz't novels, making them continually try to keep up with the new status quo, something Salvatore had previously mostly avoided.

As for the rules? Chasing after a bunch of kids already playing WoW or whatever by making the rules more like a computer game was never going to work as well as they thought. They aren't getting pulled away for long... the pacing of fights are much slower in a tabletop game, and it isn't easy to hook someone in that mindset into an actual story plot.