The laws of physics is still crying alone in a corner

[Duric]

Lightning is electrical discharge. It always has a destination. If you block the path of a lightningbolt two things may occur:
• A new path or target is found, the one with the least amount of resistance.
• The discharge does not happen at all
Lightning with a high speed camera :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVXy-ZqqZ-g

I am wondering about the electrical properties of a wall made of force. Is it Conductive or an insulator?

Plot dictates transgression against The laws of physics. So I just might give it peace to cry alone.
And just in case the giant reads this, it’s an amazing story. I do like.

Extra note:
The Siliciumdioxid elemental may cause cancer. And it would have been just as awesome.
A Silicium elemental is metallic in appearance

[Leviting]

what is this silicium elemental that you speak of? Did you mean silicon?
Also, the "force" in wall of force is not matter (lacks mass). That may have effects on the physics of the situation.

[Keltest]

Given that you can generate magical lightning from your fingertips with enough practice, I see no reason to assume that lightning in D&D or OOTS operates under the same laws as reality.

[Veya]

Hold on a moment.

Isn't this the comic that had the main wizard of the group at least once mention how wizards are capable of bending the laws of physics to their will? so why would the fact the laws of physics are crying in a corner matter to anyone? :smallconfused:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hold on a moment.

Isn't this the comic that had the main wizard of the group at least once mention how wizards are capable of bending the laws of physics to their will? so why would the fact the laws of physics are crying in a corner matter to anyone? :smallconfused:

Yeah, just about every spell Vaarsuvius (or any caster, really) casts is breaking the laws of physics. The universal laws that the OOTS world (usually) complies with are the laws of D&D, not the laws of physics.

Also, a wall made of force would not be either conductive or insular, since it wouldn't be comprised of matter.

[137beth]

A Wall of Force is composed of Force. No, it doesn't make sense in the real world, which is why it doesn't happen in the real world.

[Heksefatter]

V has already stated that s/he files physics under fiction in hir personal libraby. (See Origin of the PCs).

As a physicist, I'd do exactly the same in hir case.

[Kish]

Are. The laws of physics are plural.

[Cavenskull]

The laws of physics are crying in the corner, but only because people keep trying to apply them to a fantasy comic inspired by Dungeons & Dragons.

[Zea mays]

Are. The laws of physics are plural.

The laws of grammar are also crying in the corner.
It's a very busy corner.

[MPG]

I don't know what everyone has against physics. Magic and physics seem perfectly happy together. Magic simply makes use of forms of energy that don't exist in our world.

Biology takes a bigger beating from magic than physics. Got stabbed enough times to kill anyone several times over, not to worry as long as your HP are positive you can be a sword-pincushion all you want. Just had an appendage severed and you're lying in the dirt, don't worry Clostridium perfringens (gas gangrene) isn't even in the source-books and your friendly neighborhood cleric can fix you right up regardless of the nerve damage (well if they are high enough level for a regeneration spell anyways).

Honestly, it's a D&D based fantasy stick-figure comic (a great one at that), I think most of us accepted that real world issues were left out on page 1.

[DaggerPen]

Are. The laws of physics are plural.


The laws of grammar are also crying in the corner.
It's a very busy corner.

If I had the room I would sig this.

[Ben Kenobi]

The laws of physics wouldn't have lightning striking Durkula either. ;)

[Vinsfeld]

So... Is it ok to "spliced" V to stop time and to Xykon summon a meteor swarm. But stopping a lightning? WOW! THAT IS UTERLY OUTRAGEOUS!

[Nilehus]

If I had the room I would sig this.

If you're not going to, I will! If they do not mind, of course.

[Darth Paul]

If you really, really need a theory that accounts for a Wall Of Force stopping a Lightning Bolt, then let's just say that the magical force field grounds out the lightning bolt. A Wall Of Force is impenetrable, right? According to the spell description? I haven't played a wizard in too long, been specializing in Paladins (no, not like Miko- more like Hinjo).

But that's assuming an explanation other than "it's a big honking magic wall that nothing can get through" is called for. Magic is sort of like miracles, in that it can cancel out physical laws. 'Cos if it didn't, it would be, I dunno, science?

[factotum]

In real world physics, you can't *aim* a lightning bolt at anything--they will tend to strike the tallest thing around, regardless of anything else. Since we've already seen numerous examples of Durkon using Thor's Lightning to hit specific targets, we already know magical lightning in the Stickverse doesn't work the same as it does in the real world, so what's the point of this thread again?

[DaggerPen]

In real world physics, you can't *aim* a lightning bolt at anything--they will tend to strike the tallest thing around, regardless of anything else. Since we've already seen numerous examples of Durkon using Thor's Lightning to hit specific targets, we already know magical lightning in the Stickverse doesn't work the same as it does in the real world, so what's the point of this thread again?

Weeelllll... (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.380403-Army-Scientists-Shoot-Lightning-With-Lasers)

[Amphiox]

To get the visual effect as seen in the comic, using real-world lightning physics, the Wall of Force must attract the lightning (ie become the lightning's target) and then ground the charge. The Wall isn't touching the ground, but, well, magic, so it could ground the charge another way, say into another plane, or into the same place where bags of holding connect to, or whatever.

In other words, the electrons flow into the Wall of Force and then go "someplace else", but do so invisibly, without a visible spark ie lightning bolt.

(Which brings up the interesting factoid that a Gate spell could be creatively used to "block" a lightning bolt too. Open a Gate in the path of the lightning, with the other end close to or on the ground. The lightning will be drawn through the gate to ground itself on the other end...)

(Another interesting point of speculation. Wall of Force is supposed to produce a barrier that feels like a solid object. In real world physics, solid objects feel the way they do because of the electromagnetic repulsion of the electrons in the shells of the objects that are interacting. So, in other words, the "force" that Wall of Force must be made of must have something to do with, or mimic in some fashion, the Electromagnetic Force. Which means that Wall of Force having the potential for interesting interactions with a lightning bolt is not, in fact, beyond the pale. V is a clever wizard....)

[Unisus]

Some people say magic might be not that impossible if we assume there are other dimensions of existence which we cannot observe with our possibilities today. Just say there were a fourth dimension from which there could be impact on our reality. In the case of the blocked lightning you just could say that the grounding of the lightning goes through this fourth dimension.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If I had the room I would sig this.

You could make one of those extended signature things.

[Kish]

If you're not going to, I will! If they do not mind, of course.
For my part, I certainly don't mind.

[Zea mays]

If you're not going to, I will! If they do not mind, of course.

I do not mind at all.

[Reddish Mage]

Given that you can generate magical lightning from your fingertips with enough practice, I see no reason to assume that lightning in D&D or OOTS operates under the same laws as reality.

That isn't enough of a reason. The ability of Roy to survive being impaled by a triceratops and retain full fighting strength, the ability of monks to Ki-blast, dragons to fly and breath fire...slyph flying...all take together, is a reason not to suspect the laws of physics to even be mere suggestions.

Also, the laws of physics are not crying in a corner, it is bawling in the forums :smallamused::smallamused:

[Darth Paul]

The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, it is bawling in the forums :smallamused::smallamused:

Would be a great signature....

[Duric]

I do like the explanation with extra planar anchoring and grounding of a “wall of force”.
New uses for force spells

About the gramatics:
If ”laws of physics” is considered an entity. Its correct to use singular “is”
Or laws are plural and I should have used ”are”.
I am still in doubt off which one is correct.

About silicon vs. Silicium:
English is not my first language. Apparently you understood me anyway :smallsmile:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

About the gramatics:
If ”laws of physics” is considered an entity. Its correct to use singular “is”
Or laws are plural and I should have used ”are”.
I am still in doubt off which one is correct.
There are multiple laws, so it would be "are".

[Bongos]

Yeah, magic, oh and fiction...also, laws can't cry.

[Kalmageddon]

I'm more surprised that V apparently has faster than lightning reaction times, being able to see the lightning coming and cast a spell in time to intercept it.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm more surprised that V apparently has faster than lightning reaction times, being able to see the lightning coming and cast a spell in time to intercept it.

In general, people in OOTS have faster reflexes than they should, due to how the D&D rules work. Miko is a good example if this.

[Leviting]

Or how about this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html)
having a short conversation... mid-swing.

[TurtlesAWD]

I feel like there's a little much indignant outrage around in here for what is essentially a topic made to spread knowledge about the real world behavior of lightning.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Or how about this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html)
having a short conversation... mid-swing.
Wait, was Malack about to slash down for four whole panels there?

[DaggerPen]

Wait, was Malack about to slash down for four whole panels there?

Talking is a free action.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Talking is a free action.

Within reason, though! Makes Malack's frustration in that last panel seem even stronger.

[Reddish Mage]

Would be a great signature....

I agree! With some minor grammatical corrections

[Amphiox]

It should be noted that the "laws of physics" are not a singular entity. There are many, many laws of physics, and in fact, it is most likely that the majority of them still apply and are not broken at all in this setting. Another subset applies most of the time but can be overruled by a second set of laws, the laws of magic, which sort of act like federal laws to state laws vis-a-vis those laws of physics.

Only a small minority of the laws of physics are actually regularly are routinely broken, typically the ones that pertain to spectacular phenomenon. But let's not forget that no matter the setting, the spectacular is always less common than the mundane.

If the laws are crying, it is not because they themselves feel violated, but because they are attending a funeral for a minority of their number....

[Reddish Mage]

It should be noted that the "laws of physics" are not a singular entity. There are many, many laws of physics, and in fact, it is most likely that the majority of them still apply and are not broken at all in this setting. Another subset applies most of the time but can be overruled by a second set of laws, the laws of magic, which sort of act like federal laws to state laws vis-a-vis those laws of physics.

Only a small minority of the laws of physics are actually regularly are routinely broken, typically the ones that pertain to spectacular phenomenon. But let's not forget that no matter the setting, the spectacular is always less common than the mundane.

If the laws are crying, it is not because they themselves feel violated, but because they are attending a funeral for a minority of their number....

I doubt this idea very much. First of all, even if the violations are rare in number I think they are very wide in the number of laws they violate. If energy, conservation of mass, gravity, motion, etc are all being violated...that tends to touch pretty much everywhere in physics, and probably bleed into violations of chemical, biological, and heck, maybe even psychological. Secondly, the routine violations are pretty obscene. Dragons fly, even very fat ones with very tiny wings, magic is common enough to be routine and even low level spells pretty much screw with everything. Even low level fighters can take the sort of damage that can kill them, and the rules for things like archery doesn't even vaguely relate to the physics on the subject.

No I would say that the "laws of physics" are properly placed in the fiction section. Perhaps they should be called "gentle suggestions" or "very rough rules of thumb?"

[Amphiox]

I doubt this idea very much. First of all, even if the violations are rare in number I think they are very wide in the number of laws they violate. If energy, conservation of mass, gravity, motion, etc are all being violated...that tends to touch pretty much everywhere in physics, and probably bleed into violations of chemical, biological, and heck, maybe even psychological. Secondly, the routine violations are pretty obscene. Dragons fly, even very fat ones with very tiny wings, magic is common enough to be routine and even low level spells pretty much screw with everything. Even low level fighters can take the sort of damage that can kill them, and the rules for things like archery doesn't even vaguely relate to the physics on the subject.

No I would say that the "laws of physics" are properly placed in the fiction section. Perhaps they should be called "gentle suggestions" or "very rough rules of thumb?"

Just to take a single example, dragons. That dragons fly seems to violate the law of physics that determine lift. But it is in fact only one single law that is violated, the law that determines the amount of lift generated by the wings. Once you allow that (and after all, Beoung 747's fly), dragon flight in fact follows all the other laws of physics pertaining to flight - all that is required in a magic input to the lift and thrust as the staring condition. So you violate ONE law, but simultaneously obey a hundred others.

And so it is with every imaginable example.

[Keltest]

Just to take a single example, dragons. That dragons fly seems to violate the law of physics that determine lift. But it is in fact only one single law that is violated, the law that determines the amount of lift generated by the wings. Once you allow that (and after all, Beoung 747's fly), dragon flight in fact follows all the other laws of physics pertaining to flight - all that is required in a magic input to the lift and thrust as the staring condition. So you violate ONE law, but simultaneously obey a hundred others.

And so it is with every imaginable example.

And lets be honest. If you count magic as an outside force, the number of violations go down even further. Suddenly the dragon isn't violating physics because the wings aren't the only thing providing lift.

[veti]

Lightning is not instantaneous. It's theoretically possible to interrupt it in mid-stroke. My guess is that the Wall of Force has a huge (possibly infinite) capacitance, which simply absorbs the charge, then releases it back into the air when the spell duration expires. (At this point there will probably be some more lightning activity in the area, but we've long since moved on by then.)

As to how Blackwing anticipates it - we know that some birds can sense the earth's magnetic field, well enough to navigate by. It's not that much of a stretch that a magically-enhanced bird could sense intense concentrations of electrostatic charge, in time to give a warning that a lightning strike was building.

What bothers me more is, how does Blackwing point?

[warrl]

There is also the fact that - even aside from magic - real-world physics are irrelevant. Ootsworld follows D&D physics. Which produces things utterly absurd in the real world, routinely.

Particularly in the case of readied actions. A readied action is very often prepared to take place only when some specific event actually occurs, and then is used to prevent that specific event from occurring. Which works because the readied action takes place before its trigger.

Example of a readied action applied by the same rules to the real world: if I see a child get run over by a car, I'll rush out into the street and rescue the child before the car gets to it.

I don't make the decision to actually run out there until I see the child get hit, yet I grab the child before it happens. (And this works without time-travel, by the way. Nor does it require magic.)

And if I'm one of three people who have this same readied action prepared, it doesn't trigger for all three of us. It triggers for whomever is first in the initiative order, so that person responds to the child getting hit by rushing out into the street and grabbing the child so it doesn't get hit. Since the child now didn't get hit, the readied action doesn't trigger for the other two of us.

Does this make sense? In the real world, definitely not. In D&D, that's how the universe works.

[Amphiox]

And lets be honest. If you count magic as an outside force, the number of violations go down even further. Suddenly the dragon isn't violating physics because the wings aren't the only thing providing lift.

But that IS my point.

Magic IS for all intents and purposes, an outside force (or a provider of outside forces). Once the "magical exception" occurs, and the addition force or whatever is added to the picture, the rest of things follow the regular laws of physics.

Most of what people call "violations" of laws of physics in fantasy settings like D&D actually aren't violations at all, but ADDITIONS to the laws of physics. The laws of physics function in the underlying layer, while these additional things MODIFY the result either after or before (by establishing new initiating conditions).

The fact of the matter is that it is much easier to build and keep a fantasy world self-consistent this way, for most authors who are not themselves experts at physics. Let the underlying physics remain what you and your audience are instinctively familiar with (ie the real world), which takes care of most internal consistency automatically, and just focus your attention of the few specific examples of exceptions you want to build your narrative around.

The fact that Dragons in D&D setting actually HAVE wings implicitly obeys far more laws of physics than the fact that the size of Dragon's wings are too small. The more fundamental level of reality - that flying animals use wings, follows normal laws of physics. The special circumstance on top - dragons in particular, is the addition.

For every dragon in D&D, that violates one out of the many physical laws of flight there are a thousand thousand crows, magpies, chickens, hawks, dragonflies, adventurers in hang-gliders, mosquitoes, pterosaurs and doves that follow all those laws of flights without deviation.

[Reddish Mage]

But that IS my point.

Magic IS for all intents and purposes, an outside force (or a provider of outside forces). Once the "magical exception" occurs, and the addition force or whatever is added to the picture, the rest of things follow the regular laws of physics.

Most of what people call "violations" of laws of physics in fantasy settings like D&D actually aren't violations at all, but ADDITIONS to the laws of physics. The laws of physics function in the underlying layer, while these additional things MODIFY the result either after or before (by establishing new initiating conditions).

The fact of the matter is that it is much easier to build and keep a fantasy world self-consistent this way, for most authors who are not themselves experts at physics. Let the underlying physics remain what you and your audience are instinctively familiar with (ie the real world), which takes care of most internal consistency automatically, and just focus your attention of the few specific examples of exceptions you want to build your narrative around.

The fact that Dragons in D&D setting actually HAVE wings implicitly obeys far more laws of physics than the fact that the size of Dragon's wings are too small. The more fundamental level of reality - that flying animals use wings, follows normal laws of physics. The special circumstance on top - dragons in particular, is the addition.

For every dragon in D&D, that violates one out of the many physical laws of flight there are a thousand thousand crows, magpies, chickens, hawks, dragonflies, adventurers in hang-gliders, mosquitoes, pterosaurs and doves that follow all those laws of flights without deviation.


In regards to the REAL laws of physics:

First I think there are relatively few fundamental laws, and they are violated in a big way when the dragon takes off, when its in flight, and when it lands. Not just "lift" laws but laws of motion, of gravity, of energy. The fact that the dragon has wings is not to make it obey any laws but to give it the similitude of being like flying things we see in our world. It makes dragons more "realistic" to give it a pathetic resemblance to actual creatures, we like the wings.

Secondly, none of these other things necessarily obeys the laws of physics. Every bird we see, every adventurer we see, everything depicted in the comic and the actions they are depicted as taking, have the potential at any moment to take some sort cartoonish deviation from the laws of physics, which I'm pretty sure Rich is not keeping around as a handy reference. These thousands of laws-of-physics obeying creatures are merely something you made up because you want to explain a fictional world that we have decided to talk about as if it exited, and is depicted by little stick figures in small portrait panels. You want to explain the things these pretend creatures do as happening in a world and further adding on the laws of physics because that makes more sense to you, but it is not necessary or even desirable for people in this fantasy world to do anything but give the most shallow appearance of moving and existing like they do in this world. Heck, on-panel, they even break the fourth wall with regularity, why should they necessarily be expected to have consistently patterned lives of any sort off?

In regards to what YOU are now calling the laws of physics:

If you agree to "Let the underlying physics remain what you and your audience are instinctively familiar with..." instinctively, I think we agree. What people in general, in their most primal brain centers, expect the physics of the world to be made up is far less rigid and mathematically precise, and also less unified than what we generally call "the laws of physics" (as found in academic textbooks). I've known physicists and engineers to see "Iron Man" and still enjoy it despite having a tough time with all the ridiculousness present in the suit. The Iron-Man armor is something they can imagine working at some level or another because they can, albeit temporarily, suspend that detailed knowledge of engineering and see it as humans. I bet we'd have a problem however, if say, the iron suit started to fly because Tony Stark added weights to the the feet of, or shot deadly lasers because Tony applied ordinary purple paint. What we need is to be able to suspend our disbelief in effects, and what we don't need is mathematically precise operations to perfectly describe whats going on.

[nogall]

c'mon guys, oots does not follow real-life physics laws. It also does NOT follow D&D magic laws (ok, sometimes). It follows story-telling laws, and even those can be broken by cunning plans from a certain bard...

:smallcool:

[Amphiox]

What we need is to be able to suspend our disbelief in effects, and what we don't need is mathematically precise operations to perfectly describe whats going on.

But, if you don't have the mathematically precise descriptions of what is going on, *you cannot assert* that ANY specific phenomenon actually violates ANY laws of physics. The violation is only demonstrable with a precise mathematical description of it that can them be demonstrated to DIFFER from the actual mathematical descriptions that constitute the real world physical law.

Dragon flight violating laws of gravity, motion, and lift? Not necessarily. Objects as big as dragons DO fly in the real world (they are called airplanes) and they do not violate any laws of physics in the doing of it. Objects with really stubby wings, even BIGGER than airplanes, DO FLY in the real world (they are called rockets - ok technically you can argue that rockets don't actually "fly", but the observed effect is close enough that for narrative purposes they are the same, unless your audience is exclusively rocket scientists). Do dragons DIFFER from airplanes and rockets in ways that make their flight IMPOSSIBLE without violating the laws of physics? We don't know that, NOT without actually dissecting the d*mn things and doing mass spectroscopy on their bones and sinews, which, naturally, most fictional settings do NOT describe. Not without actually measuring the speed, impact, turning angles, muscle (or whatever) power, determining the equations that govern them, and comparing those equations with the real-world equations.

Dragon fire, fireballs, lightning bolts, etc, violating the laws of conservation of energy/mass? Not necessarily. To demonstrate THAT you have to first demonstrate that the mage/dragon/etc is operating as a closed system. And you cannot do that without getting into the setting and performing a bomb calorimetry or other equivalent experiment on the mage/dragon (good luck arranging that). Without that, you CANNOT in fact assert that anything you see described in a fantasy narrative definitively violates conservation of mass/energy. Magic could be opening the system in a way not observable from the vantage-point of the point-of-view perspective of the narrative. The energy could be siphoned from another plane, or the magic could be converting 2mg of the mage's body fat into pure energy to work the spell. And there could be over a hundred other specific explanations of how the effect is happening that all obey the laws of physics while simultaneously producing the observed effect.

Clarke's maxim "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", and the reverse corollary "any sufficiently described magic is indistinguishable from a science" apply here. One must NEVER underestimate just how flexible the actual laws of physics are pertaining to what kinds of phenomenon they can actually allow, given sufficient knowledge of how they work and sufficient resources and capability to manipulate the necessary variables. And Magic gives you a narratively convenient way of handwaving away the need to explain the "resources and capability". A supernova is an energetically far more spectacular phenomenon than any D&D magical spell, and it does not violate any laws of physics. The cell phone in your pocket is capable of far more amazing actions than any magic wand, and it does not violate any laws of physics. If the laws of physics, properly manipulated, can allow for THESE wonders, then why shouldn't it be possible for them to be manipulated to do something as mundane as generate a fireball?

One's default assumption should never be that "this thing I just saw happen definitely violates the laws of real-world physics". The null hypothesis should always be "real world physics are being manipulated to produce the effect I see."

In other words, if one does not actually have in-narrative definitive evidence, with numbers and equations, to prove it so, it makes far more logical sense to start with the assumption that the laws of physics are being manipulated or added to to produce an effect rather than outright violated.

Because the full set of the laws of physics are an enormous, interdependent house of cards. From a world-building perspective, if you do not set very precise and self-contained limits on actual violations of those laws in your narrative, you are going "where angels fear to tread" with respect to narrative internal consistency. It is literally like the butterfly flapping its wings producing the hurricane on the other side of the globe. There is really no telling WHAT would happen to your narrative world once you open that Pandora's box.

For example, if one allows indiscriminate violation of conservation of energy in a setting populated by mages, some of which of epic levels command spells that involve energies measurable in hydrogen-bomb equivalents (If you have a mage or cleric who can cast Control Weather on an average thunderstorm you have someone who is routinely manipulating multiple hydrogen bombs' worth of energy in 20 minute spans, and an epic spellcaster who can mess with hurricanes is operating on a level a magnitude higher than even that), including magical animals, numbered among them Great Wyrm dragons whose average energy flow is in the range of a small volcano, then within a thousand so years your pretty little fantasy world with a climate that is recognizable earth-like is turning into either Venus or Hoth (and you couldn't even predict which one it will be). To avoid that you either have to add ANOTHER miracle magical exception that cancels out the effect of all that energy magically generated ex nihilo and pumped into the environment as waste heat, which ITSELF can produce utterly unpredictable secondary effects on your setting, or you simply KEEP the law of conservation of energy intact (or even easier, leave it unexplained and let your audience assume that the law of conservation of energy is kept intact) and keep your world running.

The second is so much easier, and leaves you the time to tell the story you want to tell. You don't have to explain HOW the magic manages to balance the books, just accept that it DOES.

[veti]

I think this thread has established consensus that whatever else the laws of physics may be doing, they're not crying alone in the corner.

At the very least they're accompanied by the rules of grammar, commonsense and debate. So they're not "alone".

[BaronOfHell]

Maybe they're invisible so they don't know there are others there. Such a sad, sad story.

[gerryq]

Maybe the OOTS universe exists in a virtual world in our universe or a similar one. It needn't be violating any laws at all.

[pearl jam]

I'm a little late, but, humorous as that signature would be, the "laws" of grammar shouldn't be seen as laws at all.

A grammar for a language should be a set of patterns that describe how native speakers use their language compiled after careful observation of speaking patterns.

If those speakers changed their habits, you'd have to change your grammar for the language.

The problem is that as soon as you publish your discoveries in written format, someone comes along to say, "See, this is what you have to do! It says so right here in this book!"

In reality those native speakers will continue to change the way they use their language, despite such protestations, and the result, contrary to the laments of traditionalists, is not debasement or really worse in any way than what they did before.


Ebonics, for instance, is widely disparaged, but the changes it makes to standard English are quite systematic and fairly natural progressions of changes that were taking place in the language before the printing press came along and gave printed authority to the version of English that existed at that time.

However, what makes the most sense doesn't really matter either. What matters is what is accepted by native speakers as a whole. We don't, as a whole, accept it as standard usage, so the merits it may possess become irrelevant.

[Darth Paul]

Maybe in ootsworld they're not laws (whatever V says). They're just guidelines. In which case, they're just looking the other way and pretending not to notice what's going on for the time being.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I always find it very awesome that this forum can have discussions like this in grammar and physics that last this long.

[Keltest]

I always find it very awesome that this forum can have discussions like this in grammar and physics that last this long.

You kidding? nobody has even started an argument about trivial details suggesting that the comic obviously supports X or Y idea.

[Reddish Mage]

whatever else the laws of physics may be doing, they're not crying alone in the corner.

At the very least they're accompanied by the rules of grammar, commonsense and debate. So they're not "alone".

I think this is also signature worthy.

[gerryq]

Maybe the OOTS universe exists in a virtual world in our universe or a similar one. It needn't be violating any laws at all.

Or, if that offends anyone, it could be the other way round.

[Reddish Mage]

But, if you don't have the mathematically precise descriptions of what is going on, *you cannot assert* that ANY specific phenomenon actually violates ANY laws of physics. The violation is only demonstrable with a precise mathematical description of it that can them be demonstrated to DIFFER from the actual mathematical descriptions that constitute the real world physical law.

You mean say, a dragon's black box biology may somehow actually allow flight (or for that matter fire breathing)? Touché. Now I'm only concerned with biology and chemistry being violated, though I don't think those are in operation either (is there something that says that the creatures are made up of atoms, DNA, proteins or cells).


Because the full set of the laws of physics are an enormous, interdependent house of cards. From a world-building perspective, if you do not set very precise and self-contained limits on actual violations of those laws in your narrative, you are going "where angels fear to tread" with respect to narrative internal consistency. It is literally like the butterfly flapping its wings producing the hurricane on the other side of the globe. There is really no telling WHAT would happen to your narrative world once you open that Pandora's box.

For example, if one allows indiscriminate violation of conservation of energy in a setting populated by mages...then within a thousand so years your pretty little fantasy world with a climate that is recognizable earth-like is turning into either Venus or Hoth (and you couldn't even predict which one it will be). To avoid that you either have to add ANOTHER miracle magical exception that cancels out the effect of all that energy magically generated ex nihilo and pumped into the environment as waste heat.

No what I postulate isn't miracles, you are postulating miracles. What I postulate is that the laws of physics are irrelevant to the OOTS world. As irrelevant as Vancian magical rules to describing real world phenomena.

The OOTS world need not be consistent with its (lack of) physics, it needs not be consistent with its biology, and I'm on the fence about whether classical logic need apply. What we need is only a narrative structure that is cohesive enough the audience can imagine such a world.

[Broken Crown]

I'm a little late, but, humorous as that signature would be, the "laws" of grammar shouldn't be seen as laws at all.

A grammar for a language should be a set of patterns that describe how native speakers use their language compiled after careful observation of speaking patterns.

If those speakers changed their habits, you'd have to change your grammar for the language.

The problem is that as soon as you publish your discoveries in written format, someone comes along to say, "See, this is what you have to do! It says so right here in this book!"

Allow me to introduce the Académie Française (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academie_Francaise).

---

On-topic, electricity in D&D-themed worlds has always behaved oddly by real-world standards. Full plate armour ought to provide excellent protection against electrical attacks (since it's effectively a person-shaped Faraday cage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_Cage)), but if it has any effect at all, wearing metal in D&D typically makes you more vulnerable to electricity.

[Unisus]

It's funny that people know that dragons could not fly because of their body-weight/wing-surface ratio - according to what we know about physics the same is true for bumblebees, but they fly nevertheless :smallbiggrin:

[Domino Quartz]

It's funny that people know that dragons could not fly because of their body-weight/wing-surface ratio - according to what we know about physics the same is true for bumblebees, but they fly nevertheless :smallbiggrin:

That's a misconception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumblebee#Misconceptions). Also, I'm pretty sure that dragons don't flap their wings 200 times a second in most fantasy worlds.

[pearl jam]

Allow me to introduce the Académie Française (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academie_Francaise).

---


Is that a rebuttal? :P

I didn't deny, and, in fact, acknowledged that there are groups who attempt to turn grammar into something prescriptive, rather than descriptive, but it doesn't mean they are right, and you'll note that the rulings of the academy in question are only advisory, though they'd probably be no more effective if they were compulsory instead. :P

[Broken Crown]

Is that a rebuttal? :P

Quite the contrary: It's a highly prestigious example of exactly the sort of thing you were talking about.

If you want an example of a regulatory body with actual legal prescriptive power over the use of language, you'd have to turn to the Office québécois de la langue française (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_québécois_de_la_langue_française). I won't comment any further, lest this get into a discussion of real-world politics.

[Unisus]

That's a misconception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumblebee#Misconceptions). Also, I'm pretty sure that dragons don't flap their wings 200 times a second in most fantasy worlds.

I'm aware that nowadays we manged to unscramble the secret of the bumblebees, but that doesn't alter the fact that there was a time where our understanding of physics didn't allow them to fly.

My point is, just because we have no explanation inside our current knowledge for something, it does not mean that it can't be. As i wrote before, it just takes one or more additional dimensions we are not aware at the moment (because we have no means to perceive them), and most of fantasy magic would be explainable based on the laws of nature we know.

[Jay R]

This entire discussion reminds me of Sheldon carefully explaining why the movie scene of Superman saving Lois was "rife with scientific inaccuracy," explaining about velocity, acceleration, and momentum, and only Penny points out that men can't fly.

And in fact, the discussion of physics in both conversations is fun and interesting, but after all the careful analysis, these facts remain:
1. People can't fly.
2. Lightning can't work as shown.
3. The setting and story requires that they can, so they do.

[Unisus]

Superman does not fly - he just jumps very high and far (at least that was originally the case - later on that doesn't make sense anymore). :smallwink:

[Jay R]

Superman does not fly - he just jumps very high and far (at least that was originally the case - later on that doesn't make sense anymore). :smallwink:

That was changed in the 1940s, with the radio show. The producers discussed it with DC, because the lack of a picture meant everything needed to be narrated, which required Superman to be able to make decisions in mid-air.

"There's the getaway car speeding down the highway. And my X-ray vision confirms that Lois Lane is tied up in the back seat. Down! Down!"

[RadagastTheBrow]

That was changed in the 1940s, with the radio show. The producers discussed it with DC, because the lack of a picture meant everything needed to be narrated, which required Superman to be able to make decisions in mid-air.

"There's the getaway car speeding down the highway. And my X-ray vision confirms that Lois Lane is tied up in the back seat. Down! Down!"

That's funny, I heard that they made the decision during the old Superman cartoon, because flying was easier to animate than jumping.

[DaggerPen]

That's a misconception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumblebee#Misconceptions).

Don't ask us why bicycles don't fall over, though. :smalltongue:

[Rodin]

Don't ask us why bicycles don't fall over, though. :smalltongue:

I've wondered about that one for a while now. I mean, surely it's just math? Fulcrums and friction and vectors and so forth.

Apparently it's tougher than that, but I've never quite grasped why. Then again, I did just enough Physics in Uni to learn that I am quite happy to say that the bike stays up because bicycle fairies balance it on their wingtips, as long as that means I never have to touch another Physics problem.

[Keltest]

I've wondered about that one for a while now. I mean, surely it's just math? Fulcrums and friction and vectors and so forth.

Apparently it's tougher than that, but I've never quite grasped why. Then again, I did just enough Physics in Uni to learn that I am quite happy to say that the bike stays up because bicycle fairies balance it on their wingtips, as long as that means I never have to touch another Physics problem.

Well, I mean, if you consider wheels bicycle fairies...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Don't ask us why bicycles don't fall over, though. :smalltongue:

I haven't heard that this was a problem. Why shouldn't we am a you guys why bicycles don't fall over?

[factotum]

Apparently it's tougher than that, but I've never quite grasped why.

I don't think it *is* that tough to understand, to be honest. From what I recall, what you're unconsciously doing as you ride the bike is to turn the wheel into the fall--e.g. if you start toppling to the left, you turn the wheel left. Inertia means your body (which is high up and quite heavy) will tend to keep going straight, thus pulling the bike upright again. This is why it's harder to maintain balance when the bike is moving slowly, and why so-called "tank slappers" happen (your steering motions to balance the bike happen to coincide with a resonant frequency of the system and thus start getting amplified).

[BannedInSchool]

There's also the steering geometry of the front wheel of bicycles, with the angle of the head tube and the rake of the fork. Those combine to put the contact patch of the tire a distance away from where the steering axis intersects the ground, meaning tire forces may translate to steering forces. An extreme example of that are the grocery cart wheels. Grocery carts typically don't lean over into turns, however, which is an additional factor to the contact patch/steering interaction. :smallbiggrin:

[DaggerPen]

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/506/why-doesnt-a-bike-bicycle-fall-if-going-with-a-high-speed

Basically, there's some debate over whether it's primarily gyroscopic effects or if those don't really matter.

[Keltest]

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/506/why-doesnt-a-bike-bicycle-fall-if-going-with-a-high-speed

Basically, there's some debate over whether it's primarily gyroscopic effects or if those don't really matter.

Im pretty sure Rodin nailed it with the fairy wings.

[Stella]

Also, a wall made of force would not be either conductive or insular, since it wouldn't be comprised of matter.


A Wall of Force is composed of Force. No, it doesn't make sense in the real world, which is why it doesn't happen in the real world.

F=ma. Force is mass times acceleration. Thus a Wall of Force is made of matter. And acceleration. But a Wall of Force cannot move. Thus it has an acceleration of 0. Anything multiplied by 0 is also 0. Thus a Wall of Force is also 0, or nothing. Thus a Wall of Force is made of nothing. But wait! A Wall of Force is immune to damage of all kinds, and it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic. And so is nothing. A Wall of Force is immediately destroy when disintegrated, cancelled, or annihilated. And so is nothing. Gaze attacks can operate through a Wall of Force in the exact same manner as they operate through nothing.

Physics wins!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

F=ma. Force is mass times acceleration. Thus a Wall of Force is made of matter. And acceleration. But a Wall of Force cannot move. Thus it has an acceleration of 0. Anything multiplied by 0 is also 0. Thus a Wall of Force is also 0, or nothing. Thus a Wall of Force is made of nothing. But wait! A Wall of Force is immune to damage of all kinds, and it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic. And so is nothing. A Wall of Force is immediately destroy when disintegrated, cancelled, or annihilated. And so is nothing. Gaze attacks can operate through a Wall of Force in the exact same manner as they operate through nothing.

Physics wins!

So, just to clarify, it's not composed of matter then?

[Kish]

You cannot destroy nothing!

[Keltest]

You cannot destroy nothing!

Sure you can. Any action that doesn't destroy something destroys nothing.:smallamused:

[Nilehus]

Sure you can. Any action that doesn't destroy something destroys nothing.:smallamused:

Well, I'm convinced. :smalltongue:

Wait, then how does Wall of Force have a duration?! It can't! All you would have to do is not destroy anything! You answered one question, but raised... Well, one more.

[Keltest]

Well, I'm convinced. :smalltongue:

Wait, then how does Wall of Force have a duration?! It can't! All you would have to do is not destroy anything! You answered one question, but raised... Well, one more.

Well, obviously you aren't destroying nothing then, youre destroying the wall of force.

[Rodin]

The duration of nothing is clearly the amount of time until there is something.

[pearl jam]

Quite the contrary: It's a highly prestigious example of exactly the sort of thing you were talking about.

If you want an example of a regulatory body with actual legal prescriptive power over the use of language, you'd have to turn to the Office québécois de la langue française (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_québécois_de_la_langue_française). I won't comment any further, lest this get into a discussion of real-world politics.

Ah!

Sorry. I misread the tone of the post. :redface:

As for the second example, I think you're decision is wise. :smalltongue:

[Vladier]

F=ma. Force is mass times acceleration. Thus a Wall of Force is made of matter. And acceleration. But a Wall of Force cannot move. Thus it has an acceleration of 0. Anything multiplied by 0 is also 0. Thus a Wall of Force is also 0, or nothing. Thus a Wall of Force is made of nothing. But wait! A Wall of Force is immune to damage of all kinds, and it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic. And so is nothing. A Wall of Force is immediately destroy when disintegrated, cancelled, or annihilated. And so is nothing. Gaze attacks can operate through a Wall of Force in the exact same manner as they operate through nothing.

Physics wins!

Ah, but the fact that you can't see the Wall moving in 3 dimensions isn't a proof that it doesn't actually move. It does persist through time, so it does move in its dimension at least... which is acceleration, actually, so nevermind. However it could move in different dimensions other than visible 3.

It could also be composed of something that moves very fast along the surface of the wall, thus having non-zero acceleration.

It could also be a very specialized portal surface, like those used in Gates (spells, not the ones with the Snarl behind them) that don't allow them to spill all the infinite water from the Plane of Water into the Prime Material or to let the Prime Material burn because of infinite fires of the Plane of Fire. Someone really should work on weaponizing the Gate by removing that failsafe and turning into a water/fire/positive energy/negative energy cannon.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Someone really should work on weaponizing the Gate by removing that failsafe and turning into a water/fire/positive energy/negative energy cannon.

I think the problem with this would be that controlling the amount of what's coming through the gate would be pretty difficult, and rather than using it as an effective weapon, you'd end up destroying the world. It's a pretty interesting idea, though.

[Stella]

Wait, then how does Wall of Force have a duration?! It can't! All you would have to do is not destroy anything! You answered one question, but raised... Well, one more.Don't drag other terms into the discussion, you'll just confuse the issue!

"Anything" is e=mc^2. That's a completely different thing than "nothing", which we've just demonstrated is F=ma.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Okay, if they weren't crying yet, they should be crying now.

[GreyTraveller]

You mean say, a dragon's black box biology may somehow actually allow flight (or for that matter fire breathing)? Touché.I recall reading a book a long time ago that assumed for the sake of argument that dragons once existed (I think mostly tongue in cheek), and then tried to come up with plausible scientific explanations for their purported abilities. It suggested that they could have had sacs in their bodies filled with hydrogen, so they were more like dirigibles than birds, with the wings being more for control and direction than for lift. That neatly explains the fire breathing, too, since they could let out a small amount of the hydrogen to provide the flame. It spent time talking about all the technical details of how it could produce the hydrogen, ignite it when breathing out, and so forth. It was very entertaining.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I recall reading a book a long time ago that assumed for the sake of argument that dragons once existed (I think mostly tongue in cheek), and then tried to come up with plausible scientific explanations for their purported abilities. It suggested that they could have had sacs in their bodies filled with hydrogen, so they were more like dirigibles than birds, with the wings being more for control and direction than for lift. That neatly explains the fire breathing, too, since they could let out a small amount of the hydrogen to provide the flame. It spent time talking about all the technical details of how it could produce the hydrogen, ignite it when breathing out, and so forth. It was very entertaining.

That sounds like an interesting book. I don't suppose you'd happen to recall the title?

[Porthos]

That sounds like an interesting book. I don't suppose you'd happen to recall the title?

Might have been this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flight_of_Dragons_(book)) But I've seen the idea in other books as well. Probably a case of Follow the Leader/Obvious Solution to Obvious Problem.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Might have been this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flight_of_Dragons_(book)) But I've seen the idea in other books as well. Probably a case of Follow the Leader/Obvious Solution to Obvious Problem.

Thank you. I guess it's not that much of a surprise that other books would have that concept. I should look into those as well.

[GreyTraveller]

Might have been this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flight_of_Dragons_(book))Yes, I'm pretty sure that was exactly it. Here (http://peterdickinson.com/books/the-flight-of-dragons/)'s a description from the author.

[Nilehus]

Okay, if they weren't crying yet, they should be crying now.

It makes complete sense, though. It's why a Forcecage or a Wall of Force has never achieved anything significant in the comic. :smallwink: Something can't come from nothing, after all.

Think about it. Xykon used the Forcecage on Miko, leaving nothing in her way. V Forcecaged Redcloak in the illusion, where nothing was real. it all makes sense.

[factotum]

Might have been this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flight_of_Dragons_(book))

They actually made an animated movie of that in 1982--I remember watching it. Didn't it have something about the dragons having to eat limestone in order to generate the hydrogen they needed?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It makes complete sense, though. It's why a Forcecage or a Wall of Force has never achieved anything significant in the comic. :smallwink: Something can't come from nothing, after all.

Think about it. Xykon used the Forcecage on Miko, leaving nothing in her way. V Forcecaged Redcloak in the illusion, where nothing was real. it all makes sense.

V forcecaged the ABD, who AMF'd it. V forcecaged Laurin, who dispelled it. Wow, there's never been a truly successful Forcecage. :smallconfused:

[Nilehus]

Not for more than a round or two, anyway. This comic is the first time a Force spell actually did everything it was supposed to, and look what it started. :smalltongue:

[SaintRidley]

V forcecaged the ABD, who AMF'd it. V forcecaged Laurin, who dispelled it. Wow, there's never been a truly successful Forcecage. :smallconfused:


Xykon's was kind of successful, given it was a "Moderately-Escapable" variation. V forcecaging Laurin was successful, if you look at it from what V's entire purpose was with it - to make her waste power points getting out/getting rid of it.

[Stella]

V forcecaged the ABD, who AMF'd it. V forcecaged Laurin, who dispelled it. Wow, there's never been a truly successful Forcecage. :smallconfused:
Nothing can be truly successful for long!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Xykon's was kind of successful, given it was a "Moderately-Escapable" variation. V forcecaging Laurin was successful, if you look at it from what V's entire purpose was with it - to make her waste power points getting out/getting rid of it.

All right, they accomplished their goals, but has there been a Forcecage that actually contained someone for it's entire duration?

Nothing can be truly successful for long!
But doesn't nothing last forever?

[Reddish Mage]

What are you talking about this forecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html) worked just fine.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

What are you talking about this forecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html) worked just fine.

However, that wasn't a real Forcecage, and it wasn't actually containing someone.

[Nilehus]

What are you talking about this forecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html) worked just fine.

Exactly. In an illusion, where nothing is real, the Forcecage worked perfectly. :smallsmile:

[Miriel]

Let's try this! Science is empirical, after all.

Magic missile is force too -- it deals force damage. However, although it generally achieves nothing (V fails to hits Z in 65 because of Shield (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), Xykon fires them towards nowhere in 112 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), same by V in 588 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html)), there are cases of usefulness, such as Samantha's use on Haley in 168 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html).

This new evidence either 1) weakens the theory that force is nothing or 2) shows that our understanding of physics is wrong or 3) means that force damage works differently than force in general.

[littlebum2002]

I think what the OP is trying to say is not that V violated the laws of physics, but that lightning simply doesn't work that way.

Watch the video he linked to. There is no initial "strike" of lightning. The cloud sends out a "leader" band of ionized air which keeps branching out until it finds the ground. Once it does, the discharge actually travels UP the leader from the ground to the cloud, not down the leader from the cloud to the ground.

Therefore, assuming that V is blocking the discharge and not the leader, and assuming she has the power to bend physics to do such a thing, the ILLUSTRATION is wrong. The "lightning" she is shown to be stopping should be coming from the ship, not from the cloud.

Science is fun!

[factotum]

I think what the OP is trying to say is not that V violated the laws of physics, but that lightning simply doesn't work that way.

And what everyone else is trying to say is that real-world physics are irrelevant when you're discussing a D&D-based world (where directed lightning bolts are a thing any mid-range hedge wizard can create), and even *less* relevant when you're talking about a bolt of lightning being manipulated by the storm god of such a world. If Thor doesn't want lightning to work that way, well, he says it doesn't work that way, and reality meekly says "Yes, sir!" and follows his word.

[littlebum2002]

And what everyone else is trying to say is that real-world physics are irrelevant when you're discussing a D&D-based world (where directed lightning bolts are a thing any mid-range hedge wizard can create), and even *less* relevant when you're talking about a bolt of lightning being manipulated by the storm god of such a world. If Thor doesn't want lightning to work that way, well, he says it doesn't work that way, and reality meekly says "Yes, sir!" and follows his word.

Well, now you're just being silly

[Emperordaniel]

Well, now you're just being silly

Indeed.

Lightning can't talk, after all.

[Amphiox]

And what everyone else is trying to say is that real-world physics are irrelevant when you're discussing a D&D-based world (where directed lightning bolts are a thing any mid-range hedge wizard can create), and even *less* relevant when you're talking about a bolt of lightning being manipulated by the storm god of such a world. If Thor doesn't want lightning to work that way, well, he says it doesn't work that way, and reality meekly says "Yes, sir!" and follows his word.

On the other hand, Thor is also free to produce the effect he desires from the lightning bolt by manipulating, rather than overriding, real-world physics, if he so desired.

So who are we to tell Thor that he has to be over-ruling the laws of physics here?

Who are we to tell Thor what he can or cannot do?

[Reddish Mage]

On the other hand, Thor is also free to produce the effect he desires from the lightning bolt by manipulating, rather than overriding, real-world physics, if he so desired.

So who are we to tell Thor that he has to be over-ruling the laws of physics here?

Who are we to tell Thor what he can or cannot do?

We aren't saying he is overriding real world physics, the laws of physics have to be present in the first place to be overridden, and I, at least, keep saying there are no "real-world laws of physics" in operation, a variation of cartoon-physics maybe, real world no.

[Stella]

But doesn't nothing last forever?Touché! Nothing is perfect.


Lightning can't talk, after all.However, it thunders loudly enough.

[Red Bear]

Lightning is electrical discharge. It always has a destination. If you block the path of a lightningbolt two things may occur:
• A new path or target is found, the one with the least amount of resistance.
• The discharge does not happen at all
Lightning with a high speed camera :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVXy-ZqqZ-g

I am wondering about the electrical properties of a wall made of force. Is it Conductive or an insulator?

Plot dictates transgression against The laws of physics. So I just might give it peace to cry alone.
And just in case the giant reads this, it’s an amazing story. I do like.

Extra note:
The Siliciumdioxid elemental may cause cancer. And it would have been just as awesome.
A Silicium elemental is metallic in appearance

The video is super cool, too bad there is no explanation voice over or something

[littlebum2002]

The video is super cool, too bad there is no explanation voice over or something

Here, just watch it then read this, it explains what's going on fairly well

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/earth/how-lightning-works.html

[Red Bear]

Here, just watch it then read this, it explains what's going on fairly well

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/earth/how-lightning-works.html

Thank you!