Stopping Wish From Getting Out of Hand, Help

[HMS Invincible]

My players got their hands on four Macguffins, which is a bulky slow version of a ring of 3 wishes. The default thing to do is to use the four McGuffins to blow up the ritual circle that created them. However, the players all hesitated, and spent some time deliberating how to best use what is essentially 12 wishes simultaneously.

Here's what I think the players will do:
A. Blow up 12 evil ritual circles using 12 wishes.
B. Blow up (12-x) ritual circles and wish for x magic items.
C. Insane wish shenanigans that gets out of hand.

The mcguffin is made from the souls of the innocent, so the party is hesitant to use any of it, but they are going to use it. I got about a week or so to prepare the right answer to any wishes they may think up. Right now, I'm thinking of handwaving it if they just blow stuff up, and then cribbing the epic magic and ritual magic rules together if they want anything specific. Have I missed anything? As far as I can tell, it'll be a mixture of hitting a spellcraft target, using backlash, casting time, and all that jazz to make it special. Party of fiive level 6 players. Cleric is 6, and wizard is 6, the others are TOB.

I do have a couple answers to the obviously cheesy stuff, but the internet is a vast material source.
Wish for a candle of invocation for infinite solars. -- I killed all outsiders.
Wish to be level 20 -- Partial wish, may also shove memories of the innocent used to fuel the spell into them.

[jiriku]

Stay far away from the epic magic rules unless you are a masterclass DM. That way much pain and frustration awaits.

Honestly, if they do any kind of shenanigan under category (c), the best thing to do is to give the player a pleading look and say "Running this game is hard work for me and that would really make my job even more difficult. Would you wish for something else please?"

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A magic item that casts Wish only has the default 5,000 xp cost paid. When you use Wish to create a magic item, it has an additional xp cost equal to twice the normal xp cost paid in crafting that item. This is why there's no gp limit attached to the create/upgrade magic item function. Do note however that any magic item that costs over 200,000 gp is an epic item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm) and should be beyond the means of a Wish to create.

Let's say they use a wish for a 200,000 gp magic item (+10 equivalent weapon, Belt of Magnificence +6, etc.), normal item creation costs for a 200,000 gp base price item would be 100,000 gp and 8,000 xp. They would have to pay 16,000 xp to use an item that casts Wish to get a 200,000 gp magic item. If this would cause them to lose a level, it automatically fails because you cannot spend so much xp on a spell that you lost a level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components).

[Nettlekid]

You probably won't be able to preempt any of the outrageous Wishes they come up with. It'll be tough, but if you want to lawyer it then you'll have to do it on the spot. Don't worry about being seriously cheesy with your interpretations of certain words, since Wish actively calls that out as valid.
Basically, be as pedantic and infuriating as the people on this site when it comes to RAW.
But apart from that, I like where you're going with it. If they're conflicted but still willing to use the souls of the innocent as fuel, then have things affect them personally. I like the "wishing to be level 20 implants random soul's memories," and you might even use that to build their chosen feats, skills, and class levels (however vague they were with the wish defines this) based on the soul's memories. You could have one of their souls be used as tax, or their loved ones/familiars/anything they're close to. Play up the innocent souls thing. And Monkey's Paw it to the extreme. After all, this is your homebrew MacGuffin, not a canon item. Who says it properly grants wishes? What if it grants the exact opposite thing (and a ritual is required to reverse the polarity to normal)? Or grants any wish in the first half of a sentence but not the latter half? You don't have to play by the rules.

Question: What stops them from blowing up 12 ritual circles with ONE Wish?

[JusticeZero]

If they want something that is in the listed limits of the spellt, just give it to them. If they want something just outside those limits, give them information that sends them on a quest. If it's well outside, just make the item give some kind of error message like flashing red and the wish isn't spent.

[sideswipe]

you could just make all there wishes backfire horribly. and if they use any of them they instantly become chaotic evil. im sure that will hurt them in some way.

NOTE. if they wish for a normal thing wish does let them have it but they are chaotic evil.
if they wish for anything outside of the boundaries of wish then it backfires and they become chaotic evil.

2nd note. if the cleric is good or lawful aligned and uses the wish they become chaotic evil and lose all spellcasting. and instantly become an ex cleric. on top of that they are now hunted be either an inevitable (the baby one) or paladins of their old faith. and they have no chance of redemption.
they then get prompted by the deity of the one who made the wish items to join him or they will be slain forever as a damned soul.


when the party, who will obviously protest, call shenanigans. say "well what did you think would happen to a good party who worship good deities who use the plundered souls of dead innocents to fuel greedy wishes?"

[Gavinfoxx]

Let wish summon mundane items <25,000 and magic items <15,000, and make it impossible to buy things that are more expensive than that for anything that can be conjured via Wish. Make another tier of economy that is more exotic.

[SinsI]

Make it so that a) can work without extra evil required from the user, but b) or c) demand more souls sacrificed.

[HMS Invincible]

Ok, good questions, and points brought up all around all around.

Why 1 wish = 1 blown up ritual circle. My reasoning is I'm sorta replicating a high level destructive spell such as earthquake, and those spells are limited in area and scope. Since the locations are far apart, it's hard to justify that one wish can affect multiple circles, aka " try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous."

Good point on the magic item creation + xp requirement. I thought the 25,000 gp could also create a 25k gold worth of a magic item. They don't have that much xp to spend, probably like 4-5k worth each.

Thanks for the hint about avoiding epic rules, I heard it was a pain. I'll probably handwave it then.

Edit: I'm trying to avoid too much railroading, while still maintaining borders. That way, the players have a choice and have fun in the knowledge that their decisions matter. The tricky part is saying No or 'that breaks the campaign' in a way that doesn't break immersion.

Ethically, I'm hesitant to swing around the morality bat too hamhandedly. They seem to alternate between bemusing psychotic murder-hobos, and the chaotic good party out to save the world.

JusticeZero, That's what I was planning for most wishes. Replicating spells is the most likely result of whatever they wish for.

[Eldonauran]

I find it very easy to curtail abuse of the Wish spell. Anytime a player brings up wishing for something, I stare at them thoughtfully for a few moments and then pull out a copy of the wish spell.

Me: "Take a look at this spell. This is everything it can do. You WILL pay experience for casting this spell. If you are getting the wish from another source (magic item, creature), they have/will be paying the cost. If you choose to use the Wish for something outside of the explicitly listed uses, I will use the opportunity to enhance the enjoyment of the game. You are casting out magical energy and the very essence of your soul into the cosmos in order to alter it to your will. Something will take notice and may choose to use that energy to bring about an interpretation of your wish."

Player: .....

Me: "Good. You are thinking. Do you wish to proceed?"

[Flickerdart]

The great thing about the partial fulfillment clause is that you can just give them a small piece of what they wanted and no amount of lawyering can get around it, because it isn't a perversion.

So if they ask to be level 20 (how do they know in-character what level 20 is, anyway?) then all you have to do is point at the rule that says you can't level up more than once at a time, and then drop a monster on top of them a la Gate. If they manage to beat it, then they gain a bunch of XP (that's what they wanted, right?) and maybe go up a level.

[weckar]

You are way too nice about this. If in my game a player would ask to be at level 20, I would teleport them 20 storeys into the air and have them enjoy the fall damage.

Really, the only way to prevent wish from getting out of hand is not introducing wishes into your campaign. Or be an amazing on-the-spot lawyer.

[sideswipe]

Me: "Good. You are thinking. Do you wish to proceed?"

they say yes and lose 5000 xp because they WISHED to proceed ahaha

[Eldonauran]

they say yes and lose 5000 xp because they WISHED to proceed ahaha

:smallamused: You are perceptive, my friend.

*evil laughter*

[Flickerdart]

they say yes and lose 5000 xp because they WISHED to proceed ahaha
Wish doesn't work that way. It's not a genie.

[Darth Paul]

In stories, magical wishes always somehow go wrong. This is even more true, I imagine, when they are fueled by the souls of the innocent (eewwww). Stress this point. Only the innocent souls can destroy the evil circles. How else will all 12 circles be destroyed? This would be a great test for how Good your party is, vs. how Chaotic Selfish. And then allow them to face the long-term consequences of allowing 12-X evil ritual circles to go undestroyed...

[Eldonauran]

Wish doesn't work that way. It's not a genie.

Wish itself is not a genie, but could be cast by one. We have a lot of preconceptions of how wish works based on stories we've heard or movies we've seen with genies in them. A Wish spell isn't about using the correct terminology or lawyer-ez to out-wit the DM to give you exactly what you want.

You literally are casting magic energy and soul essence into the universe to create an effect that you want. If you are a spellcaster, you have a pretty good understanding of what you are doing. If you are not, its usually a combination of charisma and skill. Using the Wish spell outside its "tried and true methods" (list of things it can do safely) invites chaos into the spell.

The "Do you wish to proceed?" Was merely an injection of humor into the seriousness of the situation, that perceptive players usually catch onto and they tend to really think about the spell at that point. I'd never really fine a player exp for something like that.

:smallamused: However... The saying "Don't give the DM any ideas!" is often thrown around my table when I start smiling for "no reason".

[Mnemnosyne]

These are less specific to your situation, and more some general rules for wish I would abide by, but they make wishing far less complicated and more equitable for everyone involved, making sure that players are not unduly discouraged from casting the spell, but they also are not able to abuse it that badly.

One: All wishes cast directly by the character are always granted in the most favorable possible way, with no downsides. Even if the wish is outside the scope of the safe wishes, the worst possible result from the character's point of view, if they're the one directly casting the wish, is an incomplete result. If they wish for something outside the safe bounds, such as an item worth more than 25,000 gp, the wish can look for the most effective means of fulfilling the request, and then the player gets to actually decide whether that's their desire or not; for example, the old idea about the wish not creating treasure, but stealing a dragon's hoard. Inform them that, as they cast the spell, the magic finds a way to grant their request even if it is too powerful; it will take it from a creature that possesses that item, if they choose to continue. Again, remember, the caster is shaping the magic personally - they should have control over the effect of the spell if they're casting it, so it's okay to ask them this kind of thing in the sense that 'the magic finds a way; do you allow it to proceed?'

Two: Magical items are also limited to 25,000 gp in value as far as safe wishes go. This one is obvious for the reasoning, and negates the annoying little clause where you can only wish for 25,000 gp worth of nonmagical items but magical items have no limit in value, and a wish can create any value of one.

Three: No wish can grant an item that can, itself, cast wish, nor can it grant an item capable of calling a creature that can cast wish, no matter what. This means that a wish can never create a candle of invocation, can never create a ring of three wishes, and so on. It also can never summon these items to the caster, nor directly cause them to fall into the caster's possession. At best, the caster may be able to use a wish to learn the location of such an item and put themselves in an advantageous position whereby their own actions can help them obtain it.

Four: A wish granted through an item will always grant it in the manner most favorable to the original creator of the item. This is just as if the item's original creator had been the person casting the wish, and even if the item is nonintelligent, the wishes are still granted in a manner consistent with whatever the original creator would have decided, had he known all the relevant information. It must still abide by the wording of the wish, so the safe wishes are pretty simple to word in a precise manner that cannot be interpreted unfavorably, but if someone is using an item to cast an out of bounds wish, they have no choice as to what possibly unpleasant shortcuts the wish will take to attempt to grant itself. Or what twisting of their words the wish might do.

Five: A wish granted through another intelligent caster will always be granted in whatever manner that intelligent caster chooses. A wish made through an efreeti, therefore, will almost always be twisted to the best of the creature's capability, unless the efreeti is very favorably disposed toward the person it's granting the wish to and chooses not to work it in such a way as to be disadvantageous.

Six: Any wish granted through an item or other caster, if the wish is sufficiently badly worded as to allow unpleasant circumstances that directly affect the person making the wish, grants a normal saving throw. A wish that would age the character, strike them blind, teleport them somewhere bad, etc, etc, will always grant a saving throw to avoid the effect. These wishes should be relatively rare as it is unless the player is careless with requesting wishes from other beings, but even if they happen, the character should still get a saving throw.

Note on Language: There will be no game-term trickery with language. The player will say 'sword +1' or 'increase my charisma by 1' and that will be interpreted accurately. While the characters may not use the same terminology to refer to their stats in-character, the stats are clearly and easily measurable in-character and therefore the characters must have words in their language that accurately and precisely describe all meaningful terms. These things are the laws of physics to their world, and can be empirically determined in the same way that we have empirically determined all sorts of laws of physics about our world.

[Azraile]

wishes cost XP no matter what... even if cast from another item.... if your saying the item draws on the XP of the souls it consumed even then each and every item only has a set amount of XP, CR 1/2 or less pesants arn't worth a lot of XP even in mass.

Then come the type of wish


Free wish

Free a bound wish giver, release the souls of the wish item, ect, ect, ect.


Lesser Wishes – the following wishes have a 300 XP cost:

Can ask for metiral caponiates or wealth up to ~ 5000gp
Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Duplicate any other spell of 4th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Undo the harmful effects of many spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a –7 penalty on its next saving throw.
A very weak magical item.

spells duplicated that have material or focuses costing more that 1,000 gold wont work.

Big wishes- cost at the least 5,000 XP:


Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Create a nonmagical item or wealth of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item. (out of an item that already exists)
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

The creation of magical items requires spending the XP required for crafting the item on top of the 5000 XP normal cost, and wishing for an item that has wishes on it costs 5,000 XP per wish the item has.

Any items, wealth, material /focuses, involved in wishes over 25,000 (included in magical item crafting) costs a set number of XP/xxxgp I would go with 1XP/10gp.


Anything past that can't be done with a wish, or will cost more XP from the wish maker to the point they can lose levels all the way down to level 1 if they are not carefull.



Even items like your's that absorb or pay for some of the XP cost have a price. From the sounds an alinement change, or corruption of the intention of the wishes.

When you make a wish you summon a being you must negotiate with and they will give you (1+wisdom mod) of there interpretations of your wish for you to chose from. Considering the nature of the items they likely summon some nasty nasty demon lord that likely will try and up the XP cost even more to clame there soul, or interpret the wishes in horrible corrupt ways. To the point they won't want to agree to any of the interpretations (which they can, but they still lose 300 XP if they back out of the wish).

This nasty demon negotiator is a good way to make the players want to just destroy the magic circles as that is the only thing that the demon will do with out cost or misinterpretation. Though with out clearly wishing it, the demon is likely to claim the souls of anyone in the circles before destroying them.

[Azraile]

I think after one or two tries of negotiating with a demon lord, there going to want to destroy the items rather than use them, lol

[Bronk]

My players got their hands on four Macguffins

Do they know what they do yet? Do they have to be wishes? Whatever they are, they could be custom macguffins that are custom made for the one purpose of closing those magic circles... then you wouldn't have to worry about dealing with twelve wishes at all. You could throw them each a wish as a reward later, maybe a supernatural wish from an impressed solar. As an SLA, they wouldn't have to be worried about XP costs associated with wishing for magic items, and you could grant the wishes as you saw fit anyway.

Alternately, if they do wish for a magic item, you could instead summon forth an irate Midgaard dwarf (a magical dwarf that can craft any magic item) and they would have to bargain with it to make what they want...

[Azraile]

IDK more I think about it the more I like the idea of the demon.

It's a wish powered by stolen souls.... what would you expect to come and claim the power in exchange for granting your wishes.

The demon don't HAVE to give all bad interpretations of there wishes.

But it's a good way to make them wish very very very very very carefully and not for anything out of hand.

After all if they can't come to an agreement with one of the demons interpretations then they lose 300xp and the wish.

How many times are you going to make that mistake? Gee I just had an all powerfull wish and I blew it and took a hit to my exp at the same time.... weeee lets go again!