3.5 Core only Paladin, assistance required.

[Cranthis]

So, just so every is clear, by core I mean PHB, DMG, and Monster Manual one.

Ok so in my group's next campaign, I am playing a Half-Orc Paladin, starting at level 9. This was all determined randomly by our group, everyone did it, and everyone is sticking with what they have. The only problem is, I've only played one core only game, and am having trouble making what I hope will be viable.

What I have so far:
Half-Orc Paladin 9
32 point buy (racial, level, and Item changes added)
Str: 20
Dex: 10
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 14

Skills (Ranks):
Diplomacy 12
Sense Motive 12

Feats:
1: Power Attack
3: Improved Initiative
6: Weapon Focus Great Axe
9: Improved Sunder

Gear:
Belt of Strength +4
Amulet of Constitution +2
Bag of Holding type 1
Great Axe, Adamantine, +1
Fullplate +1


So, does this look decently solid for Core only? What changes and/or improvements would you make, within core?

[The Grue]

Why Blind Fight and Weapon Focus instead of...anything else really?

I'd look at Improved Initiative, because acting sooner is always better. Consider Practised Spellcaster too, for a flat +4 to your caster level; there's a lot of buffs the Paladin can cast that benefit from a higher CL.

[Cranthis]

Because Core doesn't have a whole lot of options. Weapon focus is never really bad, and blind fight can come in handy.

[The Grue]

Because Core doesn't have a whole lot of options. Weapon focus is never really bad, and blind fight can come in handy.

Weapon focus is never bad, no, but there are better options. And if you ever switch to a better weapon than your axe, Weapon Focus (Greataxe) is now a dead feat. Blind Fight is, in my opinion, not as great as it looks on paper unless you know you're going to be fighting lots of enemies with Concealment. Whenever you aren't, it's a feat that does nothing. There are feats you could take instead that always contribute.

I edited my post as you were replying with two suggestions for those feat slots, and why I'd pick them. Improved initiative is always relevant in every fight, and Practised Spellcaster is admittedly only as good as the spells you're using.

[Cranthis]

Both options are pretty good, all things considered. I think I value that +4 caster level more than blind fighting.

[ArqArturo]

I'd put some ranks in UMD and then Skill Focus on it. Get a wand of X, and go to town.

Also, I'd take Improved Sunder instead of Cleave. Let the casters mow down mooks, focus on ruining the BBEGs Mcguffin.

[The Grue]

Oh yeah, the Improved X line. Improved Trip is always great, and one of the few ways a melee character can exert battlefield control. Though for maximum hilarity you'd need a different weapon.

[Piggy Knowles]

Practiced Spellcaster isn't core, unfortunately.

[The Grue]

Practiced Spellcaster isn't core, unfortunately.

Is it not? I thought it was in PHB.

[Cranthis]

I always thought it was core too, but I checked again. Oh well, guess I'll get Improved initiative and Improved Sunder haha.

[gorfnab]

Is falling an option?

Ranger 3/ Ex-Paladin 1/ Blackguard 10/ Horizon Walker 6

[Cranthis]

I do not intend to fall.

[ArqArturo]

I do not intend to fall.

You've no idea how awesome that statement is :)

http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1366/08/1366088989903.gif

[Cranthis]

You say that, but if I actually said that in-game, I would immediately fail a balance check for something the dm had actually planned to happen.

[Soranar]

eesh, not exactly optimal (race wise or class wise)

the best core only paladin build would be a small race riding a medium mount and using mounted charge vs just about everything

you could try making an attack of opportunity build (see horizon tripper)

or , you know, just fall and become a blackguard, in core it's one of your better options

-aura of despair is really useful for a tank

if you just survive till level 11, you can trade in 10 paladin levels for a complete blackguard progression (then go into assassin and eventually epic blackguard)

EDIT

I do not intend to fall

oh... that is unfortunate

literally every other class available to you in core is more effective than a paladin, and half-orcs have no real purpose in core (no ACF, no substitution levels, no half-orc only classes or feats...)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Be sure to look in the DMG for rules on alternate paladin mounts-- at 9th level you can pick up a pegasus or griffon or something and fly around. A bag of holding is probably unnecessary, between your strength and your mount; try a Cloak of Charisma instead. And... amulet of +5 Con? Was that a typo?

[Cranthis]

I do not intend to fall

oh... that is unfortunate

literally every other class available to you in core is more effective than a paladin, and half-orcs have no real purpose in core (no ACF, no substitution levels, no half-orc only classes or feats...)
Like the original post says, these were determined randomly, and we are all determined to stick with what we got.


Be sure to look in the DMG for rules on alternate paladin mounts-- at 9th level you can pick up a pegasus or griffon or something and fly around. A bag of holding is probably unnecessary, between your strength and your mount; try a Cloak of Charisma instead. And... amulet of +5 Con? Was that a typo?
I have looked at the alternate mounts, there are some pretty nice ones.

[Irk]

I know you specified the books, but are you sure we can't use UA?

Anyway, I'd go with Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Ride by Attack, and Spirited Charge. As Grod suggested, acquire a flying mount (ideally a griffin for claw attacks), and make sure one of it feats is Fly by Attack.

Now, when you charge (Probably should use a Lance) with Power Attack for +10 and Smite Evil, you'll deal
3(1d8 + 10 + 9 +7) + 2(2d4 + 4 + 1d6 + 2 + 2d6 + 4[claws + rake + bite]) for 3d8+6d6+4d4+98 for an average of 142.5 damage, 109.6% of the average CR 9 HP and 61.9% of the maximum.

You also have access to Lesser Restoration, Remove Paralysis, Lay on Hands, and any of the +4 to X spells you want. Turn Undead is statistically useful, and Divine Grace is starting to become quite useful at this level, so much so that a Cloak of Charisma is definitely worth it for increased smite damage and better saves. I mean, the difference between +2 and +4 is palpable. The Griffon gets bonuses on spot, and can serve as an effective scout and an absolute BEAST in combat (no pun intended).

More could be done with Unearthed Arcana, but all core paladin can be pretty decent.

EDIT: I also forgot to say that I admire your determination and this is much more fun than optimizing a wizard.

EDIT2: If you boost your INT by 3 points, you could go Combat Expertise + Improved trip. That could lead into Power Attack + Improved Sunder for Trip-Sunders followed by a Power-Smite next turn. Or you could get a weapon with reach, grab Improved Disarm and Combat Reflexes, boost DEX, and just set up a little, Provoke-Trip-Disarm-[get up]Provoke-Trip-Smite combo.

[ericgrau]

(looks up core optimized melee gear for level 9): +2 gauntlets of str, +2 amulet of health, +1 cloak of resistance, +2 armor, +1 ring of protection, +1 spell storing axe (or frost or whatever). Probably some money leftover.

In core level 9 weapon focus is going to give more damage than power attack. Those attack penalties really hurt. But there are a lot of feats that are more interesting than both, like the "improved" feats.

If you want to be a sunder monkey then that works well. A foe disable for a mere attack is quite a great deal action-wise; a little of your time for a lot of theirs. Just don't sunder anything from the BBEG unless it's desperate. You'll lose a tiny bit of treasure. But nothing you fight can afford a better weapon than yours or anything that valuable unless the DM is being uber generous. Plus right now most foes are using regular or masterwork. If your DM likes to hand out nice weapons like candy then you might reconsider... or say, hmmm that greataxe must be my next weapon b/c no one else ever has one. Better not sunder that one. Besides weapons don't forget to sunder key objects on other foes. Spell component pouch for example. Holy symbol.

With your limited feats you probably only want one "improved" feat, since you can't use two at the same time. Weapon focus is helpful for the sunder opposed attack roll too. For your last feat there isn't much good so I'll say improved initiative. It's only 1/5th of a round, and core-only doesn't tend to have 1 round fights, but there's not much else. If your DM likes to send lots and lots of invisible foes or you like to pack a lot of smokesticks, then you might get blindfight. If you use smokesticks then your allies better have a way of overcoming it too. Otherwise don't get a feat that you only use once or twice in your career, total waste.

Likewise if your DM likes to use almost all high level foes with natural attacks, sundering could be a waste and you might have to ditch the whole thing.

[fallensavior]

If you are determined to stick with that, I'd go with Irk's mounted idea and hope you never have to go indoors.

Personally, I would find a way to bite it (heroically) and ask for a reroll instead of a rez.

[Angelalex242]

First of all...in Core Only, use the Aasimar Race. Thankfully, Planetouched is in the monster manual fair and square.

If you can't, be human.

Instead of a GreatAxe, use a Falchion. +1 Holy Falchion, at your level.

Along with your weapon focus, improved crit feat that Falchion.

Now cast Bless weapon on your falchion.

And enjoy 15-20 autoconfirms vs. evil.

Abuse Power Attack and Cleave for best effect. (Those massive crits will drop somebody sooner or later. Even if you're only fighting two guys, you'll still cleave one when you drop the first.)

Also, max out charisma, for crying out loud! A +2 charisma mod is unacceptable. You want 20, at least, by level 9. If not higher. Charisma is the key ability, which is why I can't understand anyone taking a charisma penalty race for it. Charisma is what keeps a Paladin from being a fighter without bonus feats.

[Andezzar]

Also, I'd take Improved Sunder instead of Cleave. Let the casters mow down mooks, focus on ruining the BBEGs Mcguffin.Why Improved Sunder? it makes it easier to destroy stuff you could use or sell.


the best core only paladin build would be a small race riding a medium mount and using mounted charge vs just about everythingSeconded.


you could try making an attack of opportunity build (see horizon tripper)INT 13 will be expensive for the Half Orc. Paladins are MAD enough without INT.


literally every other class available to you in core is more effective than a paladin, and half-orcs have no real purpose in core (no ACF, no substitution levels, no half-orc only classes or feats...)Except the monk.

[Cranthis]

Angelalex242 you might want to re-read the original post. I have to be a Half-Orc Paladin. Its part of the agreement my group made for this campaign. We would all play what we got, which was determined randomly.

Andezzar if the Macguffin is causing my entire team to be screwed pretty hard, I'm gonna get rid of it. If its not a huge deal, like a flaming sword or so, then I don't need to break it. But a level draining orb being held by that lich? Its gone.

[Firechanter]

Can we get some info on what the rest of the group is made up of? Thing is, a Core-only Paladin is extremely weak (we are talking T5 here); you are lacking even the most basic things needed to make the class halfway playable (like Divine Might / Shield), let alone any ACFs that might make hit actually good.

So this way or other, there isn't really any leeway here in terms of "Optimization". The game can still function if the rest of your group is equally unoptimized, but if they have rolled a Cleric, Druid and Wizard and intend to play them at even 20% competence, you will feel completely overshadowed very soon.

Edit:

I'd assign the Abiltiies differently. Paladin or not, you shouldn't overcharge yourself on the Cha score. I'd try the following, not counting levelups or items:

PB 32:
Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 14

So with racial mods you get:
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 12

(You might want to move some points from Dex to Int, but be aware that you get only 1 skill point per level regardless whether your effective Int is 8 or 6, and you don't really have the points to boost Int to 10+ after racial mods.)

With your item selection this becomes:
Str 22, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 12
which means that at least you get +9 from Str to Dmg with your two-handed weapon.

Hm, that reminds me, I once played a low-op Paladin who also got by without Divine feats, I'm gonna check if I can find the sheet.
/e: Nevermind, it was a human with Int 14, Combat Expertise and Improved Trip; not really interesting for your character.

[Andezzar]

Andezzar if the Macguffin is causing my entire team to be screwed pretty hard, I'm gonna get rid of it. If its not a huge deal, like a flaming sword or so, then I don't need to break it. But a level draining orb being held by that lich? Its gone.That is highly situational. I would not invest a feat for that. Additionally in that case normal sunder also works. If that is not enough there are many other ways to destroy such an object without requiring to invest a feat.

[Piggy Knowles]

Just pack a spare weapon made out of adamantine, and you don't need the Improved Sunder feat.

[Andezzar]

Just pack a spare weapon made out of adamantine, and you don't need the Improved Sunder feat.And killing the possessor of the item first and then destroying it will make Improved Sunder unnecessary as well. Unless the object is particularly resilient you can most likely simply handwave its destruction once time is not much of an issue.

Cranthis, you may want to look over the sunder mechanics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#sunder) again to better judge whether you want that feat.
1. The AoO can be avoided by having longer reach than the creature holding the object or you can simply take it. An AoO (normally) does not prevent you from performing the distracting act, it merely makes performing it hurt.

2. The feat does nothing to alleviate the problem of hardness and hitpoints. Unless you deal as much hitpoints as the object has, your situation does not change. The object is still functional and in the hands of an adversary.

3. +4 to the attack roll against the carried object is nice, but you can gain similar bonuses elsewhere (and they apply in more situations)

The Stone Dragon belt is a nice alternative to the adamantine can opener if ToB is allowed

[Cranthis]

I know very well I will be overshadowed pretty quick in this campaign. Other people got a Cleric, Wizard, and Druid. I intend to play all the same. Hopefully I can eventually coax some more books out of my dm, once he realizes that the Paladin, Monk, and Barbarian aren't going to be doing be much. But for now, I think I'm satisfied where I am at. Thanks for the help guys, even all of you who didn't seem to get the core only thing.

[Faily]

Having played a campaign with randomly determined Race and Class combo, I can only say good luck and enjoy the ride! :smallbiggrin:

A shame that it is Core-only, as the non-casters need all the help they can get, but all the more challenge.

I'd personally mix up your skills a bit, so you are not too locked in to only 2 skills.
5 ranks of Knowledge (Religion) will get you a +2 to your Turning Checks. And it can help you to identify undead enemies, who never really run out of fashion regardless of level.
A rank or two in Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), just so you can at least attempt the roll if it comes up. The Wizard might pick it up as it is on the Wizard skill-list, but apart from that, you're the only one who gets it as a Class Skill in the group.

If your GM permits it, you could take Leadership to acquire a Special Cohort Mount (DMG pg.199-200) and pick up a Pegasus so that you also have access to a non-magical way of flying to deal with pesky enemies that fly out of your reach. But if you like this option, then I'd suggest investing at least 5 ranks in Ride. And most likely invest in an exotic military saddle. I personally think this sounds more fun than the Improved Sunder option (if something is so bad it needs sundering, I'd personally just take that Attack of Opportunity, but that's me ^_^).

[Andezzar]

And it can help you to identify undead enemies, who never really run out of fashion regardless of level. Leaving it at that however will create less and less results. TheDC for such tests is 10+HD of the creature in question. So you won't identify many powerful undead.


If your GM permits it, you could take Leadership to acquire a Special Cohort Mount (DMG pg.199-200) and pick up a Pegasus so that you also have access to a non-magical way of flying to deal with pesky enemies that fly out of your reach. p. 204 f. has the rules for acquiring a pegasus or a couple of other flying mounts without the leadership feat.

[Firechanter]

Hopefully I can eventually coax some more books out of my dm, once he realizes that the Paladin, Monk, and Barbarian aren't going to be doing be much.

That kind of pain resistance never fails to amaze me. Best of luck with your game!

[Faily]

p. 204 f. has the rules for acquiring a pegasus or a couple of other flying mounts without the leadership feat.

Ah, I had not noticed that. Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

[IIzak]

He could take leadership, attract a wizard cohort, and go to town?

[Zirconia]

In the last (3.0) campaign I was in, I was a core-only human Paladin. I started with a Spiked Chain for reach and Cleave, and got some good use out of the combo at lower levels, getting multiple hits fairly regularly. Later, probably around 9/10th level as you are, we started getting fewer, tougher foes and Cleave was getting less use, plus more foes had 10' (or more) reach, so I shifted to a mounted charge based build with a custom-designed magic item that turned into a mount as needed replacing my "Paladin Mount". Gloves of Storing are handy for that, to swap between a Lance during the charge, and the Spiked Chain when you aren't charging. You also need a fairly nice DM who isn't going to target your mount all the time, AoEs can still be a problem.

A Spell Storing weapon (or several, use those Gloves of Storing!) and a cooperative Wizard in the party can give some nice punch to your attacks, especially if he is willing to make scrolls or a Wand of Combust so you can have the weapon recharged for every fight.

Try to get items of miss chance, temporary hit points, etc., by the teens in level everything will hit you on most attacks in melee, there is no way to keep up in AC without really extraordinary effort.

It might be worth asking your DM if he will allow the retraining rules from the PHB 2, that could be especially handy for the melee folks, who are more likely to be reliant on feats and may need to switch them around depending on how the campaign progresses. You could point out that spellcasters kind of get that inherently, since prepared spell users can change spells out every day, and even Sorcerers can change out a spell when they level.