The origins of ToM

[Irk]

I was just skipping around wikipedia, looking at articles on artifacts referred to in religious myths, and I was reading something about Solomon's Seal when I cam across the story for how Asmodeus stole turing and ruled as Solomon for forty days. When I clicked on Asmodeus and read through the page, I encountered a book called the Lesser Key of Solomon (still on wikipedia), which was a grimoire compiled from other texts on demonology in the 17th century. Now among these texts was something called Ars Goetia. What interests me are some of these names. (I would like to point out that I do not believe in demonology or artifacts, I just find the stories behind them intriguing. Not that it matters, really).

Among these names we have:

Naberius, Amon, Ipos, Focalor, Andromalius, Dantalion, Amon and others.
Next to the list, wikipedia had his picture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ars_Goetia#mediaviewer/File:Buer.gif
This was labeled as Buer.

I don't know if this is common knowledge, but I thought it was super cool, I love it when games or books borrow from mythology and then build on it in interesting ways, as I think ToM did. Naturally this happens a lot in D&D, (angels, devils, and Demons), but if you have anything interesting describing how subsystems were developed, please share. I love this stuff!

Heres the link to the Lesser Keys of Solomon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ars_Goetia#Ars_Goetia) article.

EDIT: Another one of these, the Ars Notoria granted eidetic memory to magicians. Sound like a certain ACF?

[ngilop]

I was just skipping around wikipedia, looking at articles on artifacts referred to in religious myths, and I was reading something about Solomon's Seal when I cam across the story for how Asmodeus stole turing and ruled as Solomon for forty days. When I clicked on Asmodeus and read through the page, I encountered a book called the Lesser Key of Solomon (still on wikipedia), which was a grimoire compiled from other texts on demonology in the 17th century. Now among these texts was something called Ars Goetia. What interests me are some of these names. (I would like to point out that I do not believe in demonology or artifacts, I just find the stories behind them intriguing. Not that it matters, really).

Among these names we have:

Naberius, Amon, Ipos, Focalor, Andromalius, Dantalion, Amon and others.
Next to the list, wikipedia had his picture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ars_Goetia#mediaviewer/File:Buer.gif
This was labeled as Buer.

I don't know if this is common knowledge, but I thought it was super cool, I love it when games or books borrow from mythology and then build on it in interesting ways, as I think ToM did. Naturally this happens a lot in D&D, (angels, devils, and Demons), but if you have anything interesting describing how subsystems were developed, please share. I love this stuff!

Heres the link to the Lesser Keys of Solomon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ars_Goetia#Ars_Goetia) article.

EDIT: Another one of these, the Ars Notoria granted eidetic memory to magicians. Sound like a certain ACF?

Its not just ToM but ALL of D&D, everything that D&D has taken in regards to monsters and other fantastical beings came form real world mythologies.

considering the fertile crescent is the start of human civilization.. why are you surprised that just about every single demon and whatnot found in those cultures ( and their subsidiaries such as Christianity ect etc) is made into a monster or being of sometype in a game?

[Flickerdart]

Its not just ToM but ALL of D&D, everything that D&D has taken in regards to monsters and other fantastical beings came form real world mythologies.
I don't know about that. Few mythologies feature gelatinous cubes.

[ben-zayb]

I won't be surprised that plenty of devil/demon/vestige names are taken or inspired by "real"* demon names, what with all the occult or satanic undertones.

*Of course, I'm yet to see an actual in-the-flesh fiend who was introduced with such a name. I'm referring to those lists of demon names in wiki (which I too have stumbled upon circa 2005-ish)

[Irk]

Its not just ToM but ALL of D&D, everything that D&D has taken in regards to monsters and other fantastical beings came form real world mythologies.

considering the fertile crescent is the start of human civilization.. why are you surprised that just about every single demon and whatnot found in those cultures ( and their subsidiaries such as Christianity ect etc) is made into a monster or being of sometype in a game?

I understand that the game is based on mythologies, this was just one instance where I thought they pulled it out of their ass. For instance, I don't expect the Pentifex Order from MoI to be based on something real. Clearly Lammasus, dragons, chimeras, sphinxes, Pazuzu, the Nine Hells Genies, Merfolk, Elves, and many other things are based on myths. I just did not think that Pact Magic was going to have actual mythology behind it. It does not seem as obvious to me that the designers took these names and hen attributed completely different stories to them without ever mentioning where the names came from in the first place.

[Irk]

I don't know about that. Few mythologies feature gelatinous cubes.

Yes that's really too bad, isn't it. It also serves as an excellent example of my point. According to wikipedia, Gygax created the gelatinous cube instead of borrowing from mythology. Similarly, I expected Vestiges to be made up. It's not like Ashardalon was an evil Pope. WotC DOES invent things, and I don;t think it was unreasonable for me to be surprised that ToM was based on an extraordinarily obscure list.

[Alex12]

Yes that's really too bad, isn't it. It also serves as an excellent example of my point. According to wikipedia, Gygax created the gelatinous cube instead of borrowing from mythology. Similarly, I expected Vestiges to be made up. It's not like Ashardalon was an evil Pope. WotC DOES invent things, and I don;t think it was unreasonable for me to be surprised that ToM was based on an extraordinarily obscure list.

Heh. I remember I stumbled on the list when I was looking up possible names for supervillains for a Worm fanfiction that never went anywhere. Saw Naberius, thought I recognized it, checked, and was surprised.

[Andezzar]

I don't know about that. Few mythologies feature gelatinous cubes.Or owlbears. Various chimeric creatures are pretty common though.

[Seto]

I don't know if this is common knowledge, but I thought it was super cool, I love it when games or books borrow from mythology and then build on it in interesting ways, as I think ToM did. Naturally this happens a lot in D&D, (angels, devils, and Demons), but if you have anything interesting describing how subsystems were developed, please share. I love this stuff!

Heres the link to the Lesser Keys of Solomon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ars_Goetia#Ars_Goetia) article.

EDIT: Another one of these, the Ars Notoria granted eidetic memory to magicians. Sound like a certain ACF?

Yup, D&D's extraplanars come from pretty much everywhere. Demogorgon is from a scholar's commentary on an epic poem, Dis and Orcus are deities of the Underworld in Roman mythology, Asmodeus is from the Book of Tobit... If you're interested in stuff like this, you can look up the Malleus Maleficarum (also can be useful if you're having some sort of witch-hunting in your game), or Collin de Plancy's Dictionnaire Infernal. (Disclaimer : I don't believe in demonology either, nor advocate it, it's just that it's a pretty obscure but interesting part of mythology and religious lore)

[BWR]

Its not just ToM but ALL of D&D, everything that D&D has taken in regards to monsters and other fantastical beings came form real world mythologies.

No. D&D may have strip-mined real world fairy tales and religions for stuff, but a whole bunch of stuff came from fantasy literature.

[Twilightwyrm]

I don't know about that. Few mythologies feature gelatinous cubes.

The Blob inspired campfire stories from kids that has just been traumatized by jello based practical jokes?

[Chronos]

That's one of the things I love about the binder: They did a great job with the fluff as well as the crunch. One of my tests for whether a class is good is whether it can be used for characters from history, fiction, or myth that can't easily be represented by other classes, and Binder does that wonderfully.

Oh, and not just most of the vestiges, but their seals also come from those medieval works, as well as at least the rough sense of the mechanics. Really, all they did was change the demons into "vestiges" to make them morally neutral, and wrote up explicit rules.

[Irk]

Yup, D&D's extraplanars come from pretty much everywhere. Demogorgon is from a scholar's commentary on an epic poem, Dis and Orcus are deities of the Underworld in Roman mythology, Asmodeus is from the Book of Tobit... If you're interested in stuff like this, you can look up the Malleus Maleficarum (also can be useful if you're having some sort of witch-hunting in your game), or Collin de Plancy's Dictionnaire Infernal. (Disclaimer : I don't believe in demonology either, nor advocate it, it's just that it's a pretty obscure but interesting part of mythology and religious lore)
Thanks! I'll definitely check it out.


That's one of the things I love about the binder: They did a great job with the fluff as well as the crunch. One of my tests for whether a class is good is whether it can be used for characters from history, fiction, or myth that can't easily be represented by other classes, and Binder does that wonderfully.
Yeah, I really like that kind of thing, Binder is one of my favorites as well, I just don't get to play it that often.

[Eldan]

Oh, and not just most of the vestiges, but their seals also come from those medieval works, as well as at least the rough sense of the mechanics. Really, all they did was change the demons into "vestiges" to make them morally neutral, and wrote up explicit rules.

The seals aren't medieval, at least not directly. They are copied wholesay from Aleister Crowley.

[Red Fel]

The seals aren't medieval, at least not directly. They are copied wholesay from Aleister Crowley.

Very much this. The Key of Solomon and Ars Goetia, despite presenting themselves as ancient lore, are relatively modern creations, and are among the preeminent sources for fiction writers and game designers who want to present "classical" demons. While some of these demons may have ancient origins, many of them are fairly modern or fanciful creations, or reinterpretations of old themes.

I do think it's worthwhile reading for any DM or aspiring writer, to consider the Ars Goetia and Key of Solomon as literary resources. They do an exceptional job of outlining the practice of demonology, the rituals and symbols and beings involved. It's a great way to pick up ideas for how to play a demonologist (or summoned demon).

And yes. ToM's Binder draws heavily from the Goetic mythos.

[Zombulian]

That's one of the things I love about the binder: They did a great job with the fluff as well as the crunch. One of my tests for whether a class is good is whether it can be used for characters from history, fiction, or myth that can't easily be represented by other classes, and Binder does that wonderfully.

Oh, and not just most of the vestiges, but their seals also come from those medieval works, as well as at least the rough sense of the mechanics. Really, all they did was change the demons into "vestiges" to make them morally neutral, and wrote up explicit rules.

The Binder got off lucky. The poor Truenamer pulled from some of the most interesting fluff of real world mythology, but was utterly trashed in the crunch department. :smallfrown:
I was never quite sure where the Shadowcaster fit within real world mythology.

[The Viscount]

While the names and the taboo nature are from Ars Goetia, the stories are mostly manufactured by WotC, some with amusing nods to other works. For example, Geryon is mentioned in FCII as a former lord of the nine who was deposed, Acererak built the Tomb of Horrors, and its interesting that you mention Ashardalon, since he actually first appeared in a 3.0 module called Bastion of Broken Souls.

[holywhippet]

It's a known part of D&D history that a fair amount of their material was "borrowed" from various literary sources and they were lucky to not get sued. They then turned around and sued other people who were infringing on their rights.

If you need a good example, just take a look at the halfling race which is just a slightly refluffed hobbit.

[Psyren]

D&D robbed from sci-fi almost as much as it robbed from fantasy and mythology. I wouldn't be surprised if the G-Cube came from a sci-fi story of some kind.

And yes, Binding is pretty heavily based on Goetian concepts.

[Alent]

D&D robbed from sci-fi almost as much as it robbed from fantasy and mythology. I wouldn't be surprised if the G-Cube came from a sci-fi story of some kind.

The Prisoner's Rover, maybe? I'm not sure of the chronology of when that one aired relative to D&D's development, but this seems a likely connection to me.

[Aquillion]

Its not just ToM but ALL of D&D, everything that D&D has taken in regards to monsters and other fantastical beings came form real world mythologies.Not quite everything.

A huge amount of the magic comes from Jack Vance (hence the term "Vancian" for the D&D spell system.) In addition to the way memorization works, a number of spells are borrowed from him, including Prismatic Spray, Clone, Imprisonment, Time Stop, and several others. (In some cases it can be hard to tell, but the way Imprisonment is described as working in early editions directly mirrors The Spell of Forlorn Encystment from the Cudgel books, including the need for a specific reversal-spell to release them; and The Excellent Prismatic Spray was the trademark spell of Rhialto the Marvellous.) Ioun Stones (both in function and name) are directly taken from the Rhialto stories, too, as are the magical 'ray' attacks (which didn't really appear in fantasy before that -- Vance was both a science fiction and fantasy writer, and his Dying Earth novels had magic implied to be a sort of ancient degraded technology, hence some sci-fi-ish powers like wizards shooting burning rays.)

Vance was the first writer to really go into depth about how magic worked and to play up specific spells as big, iconic things, so he was a natural source of inspiration for Gary Gygax to draw on -- most other myths and fantasy didn't give much detail on magic.

[VariSami]

D&D robbed from sci-fi almost as much as it robbed from fantasy and mythology.
Oh, like the 'Gith which were 'borrowed' from George R.R. Martin's Dying of the Light, I hear. Which is particularly funny because the Githyanki and the Githzerai are under heavy copyright protection from WotC and for example, are not part of the OGL.

Oh, and regarding Goetia, almost all modern fiction relies on it for demonological expertise. This applies to japanimation in particular but the vestiges of Tome of Magic are indeed a fine example. However, I really prefer the vestiges which are part of the D&D mythos in a larger scale such as Karsus and Tenebrous.

[Big Fau]

I don't know about that. Few mythologies feature gelatinous cubes.

The original gelatinous cube was created because someone put a Jello cup onto the dungeon that Gygax was working on and said they would have to fight it eventually.

Gygax then made that person regret that idea.

[BWR]

Oh, like the 'Gith which were 'borrowed' from George R.R. Martin's Dying of the Light, I hear. Which is particularly funny because the Githyanki and the Githzerai are under heavy copyright protection from WotC and for example, are not part of the OGL.


Charlie Stross took the name 'githyanki' and psionics from Martin and the basic concept of a slave race from Larry Niven. Illithids were Gygax inspired by the cover of a Brian Lumley story. The three were combined by Charlie Stross and submitted to TSR. At what point do you call it inspiration and when do you call it plagiarism?
The gith races as they exist in D&D are very much a D&D creation, not lifted wholesale from another source.

[Chronos]

The Yellow Musk Creeper is yet another sci-fi borrowing. They come from Niven's short story "Night on Mispec Moor".

[Graypairofsocks]

For example, Geryon is mentioned in FCII as a former lord of the nine who was deposed, Acererak built the Tomb of Horrors, and its interesting that you mention Ashardalon, since he actually first appeared in a 3.0 module called Bastion of Broken Souls.

Geryon is also stated out in a "Book of Vile Darkness" web enhancement found here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030117a).

Note that this is from 3.0E.

[Psyren]

While the names and the taboo nature are from Ars Goetia, the stories are mostly manufactured by WotC, some with amusing nods to other works. For example, Geryon is mentioned in FCII as a former lord of the nine who was deposed, Acererak built the Tomb of Horrors, and its interesting that you mention Ashardalon, since he actually first appeared in a 3.0 module called Bastion of Broken Souls.

To add to this list - we all know about Karsus and Tenebrous, while Amon is basically Amaunator, Lathander's predecessor.

[Irk]

Pazuzu is a Mesopotamian Deity with a notable phallus that has myths about him where he is described as having "power over the Universe as controller of the fates of all, enough to endanger the stability of civilization". Well, little did the Mesopotamians know...

[The Viscount]

Geryon is also stated out in a "Book of Vile Darkness" web enhancement found here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030117a).

Note that this is from 3.0E.

Yes, Geryon was lost in the change to 3.5. Similarly the Hag Countess appears in BoVD but has been replaced with Glasya in FCII, which explains her rather grisly fate and how the downfall of her and Geryon were part of Asmodeus's master plan.