Do they get surprise?

[Epinephrine]

In the adventure I'm running, I have just teleported two angels of vengeance in beside the PCs before calling for the night. Angels of vengeance have this neat ability to teleport (range sight) adjacent to their target. If they use this to start a fight, is that their surprise round? I somehow think it might be, which will be unfortunate for them. They are aware of the PCs, the PCs are not aware of them (the advantage of range sight teleports). I was hoping to surprise them, but I think that technically the angels act to teleport, using their surprise round for that, though appearing beside people seems pretty surprising to me.

[Daracaex]

In my opinion, the surprise round starts when the two sides first become aware of each other and some people are ready and some aren't. I would rule that them appearing simultaneously is that moment and they can have an additional standard action of surprise round before combat begins.

In this instance, if the PCs are REALLY unprepared, note that they may still need to draw their weapons and make them spend the actions to do so. It's not much, but it sounds like this is a situation where they should be off-balance.

[Tegu8788]

If I'm in the middle of dinner or getting ready to sleep and a pair of attackers teleport in, I'm gonna be surprised. Now, if I had set wards I'd expect a warning, or perhaps the guy on watch is ready, or anyone lucky enough to have a higher initiative isn't surprised, but they probably aren't geared up.

Forcing a gear up mid fight is a lot tougher for heavy armor players. Two minor actions and a swordmage is ready to fight, it's a couple standard actions for a paladin to don his armor and shield. So, consider how much you wanna screw with the party if you require gearing up.

But short answer, yes, if it's a surprise, it's a surprise round.

[Kurald Galain]

I would definitely give them a surprise round after the teleportation, and also make the PCs start without weapons to hand. Or perhaps one PC is inside a tent, or one is sitting down (i.e. prone) and so forth. Sure, it'd make the encounter more difficult, but also more memorable, and the PCs should be able to handle this just fine (if you're worried, reduce the angel's level by one or two).

Armor? Well, if you're feeling nice just have the angels 'port in while the PCs are in the process of undoing their armor, so that it still counts. That said, I've had my scale mail fighter ambushed at night at least twice and that still worked out, it just means a change of tactics for the players.

[Kimera757]

In the adventure I'm running, I have just teleported two angels of vengeance in beside the PCs before calling for the night. Angels of vengeance have this neat ability to teleport (range sight) adjacent to their target. If they use this to start a fight, is that their surprise round? I somehow think it might be, which will be unfortunate for them. They are aware of the PCs, the PCs are not aware of them (the advantage of range sight teleports). I was hoping to surprise them, but I think that technically the angels act to teleport, using their surprise round for that, though appearing beside people seems pretty surprising to me.

No (assuming a bland featureless room). Stealth has special rules. Unless the angels are teleporting from behind cover or concealment and made a Stealth check, they normally do not get surprise. The angels need LoS, so unless they're invisible the PCs should be able to see them before they teleport. Note that Fey Step doesn't give surprise by itself. Of course, if the PCs are in a crowd, the angels can use that for cover/concealment, but they won't get a bonus to Stealth. (In fact, they'll take a -5 penalty if they teleport more than 2 squares. Stealth is hard!)

If the PCs are distracted the angels may be able to make a Stealth check without needing cover or concealment.

If anything this is counterproductive, because activating the ability requires a minor action, and both the angels and the PCs can only spend a single action during the surprise round (and you specifically cannot spend an action point). What it is good for is breaking up combos. Teleport right past the defender and kill the squishies.

[Kurald Galain]

No (assuming a bland featureless room).
But the PCs aren't in a bland featureless room. They're at a campfire (and distracted by setting up camp), meaning the angels can see them from far away, whereas they can't see the angels in the dark.

[Kimera757]

But the PCs aren't in a bland featureless room. They're at a campfire (and distracted by setting up camp), meaning the angels can see them from far away, whereas they can't see the angels in the dark.

I did mention "if the PCs are distracted..." Of course, this also depends on the PCs' sensory abilities (low-light vision is a common PC trait) and basic competence. Starting at a fire is a great way to not spot something, and if the PCs posted a guard or two, that character shouldn't be taking penalties and might avoid being surprised.

But please note that during surprise you only get one action. I'm not really sure the angels can do anything other than teleport in the surprise round. (Pretty much the moment the angels see the PCs the encounter is starting, even if the PCs don't know it.)

[Epinephrine]

But please note that during surprise you only get one action. I'm not really sure the angels can do anything other than teleport in the surprise round. (Pretty much the moment the angels see the PCs the encounter is starting, even if the PCs don't know it.)

Yeah, that's how I read it, as well. I want to give them a surprise round, but I suppose that they really are using it to close with the party (from very long range); in this case, the party are in a warehouse chatting up a contact, trying to be diplomatic. The angels just need to peek through any crack/window, etc with superior cover to make the teleport in. PCs have no weapons to hand, but they are armoured, as they weren't about to wander the warehouse district without putting some gear on.

[Daracaex]

Sometimes, rules should be bent. "The encounter is starting, even if the PCs don't know it," seems like a very silly reasoning. The plain truth is that it doesn't make any sense that these angels suddenly teleport next to the rogue, ready to attack, and the rogue beats them to the punch with a full round of actions.

[Kurald Galain]

Here's the thing: if you open a door in a dungeon, then that may start combat with whomever is behind the door, but the action of opening a door does not count towards actions in the first round of combat, surprise or no.

So likewise, if you teleport somewhere, then that may start combat with whomever is at the location you teleport to, but the action of teleporting should not count either towards actions in the first round of combat, surprise or no.

[Laserlight]

But please note that during surprise you only get one action. I'm not really sure the angels can do anything other than teleport in the surprise round. (Pretty much the moment the angels see the PCs the encounter is starting, even if the PCs don't know it.)

The angels teleport in, THEN the surprise round starts.

You're blind, and you're walking along an open road. I see you from a mile away. Does the encounter start then, and keep running during the 20 minutes it takes me to walk that mile to you? No.

Worse yet, you're on an island, and I'm on another island a mile away; I can see you, but neither of us can cross the strait in between. Encounter?

[NecroRebel]

If the angels' action during the surprise round is just to teleport in, why wouldn't they just dither during the surprise round? They're presumably hidden or well out of striking range of the party, so the party just can't really do anything during the "first" round, while the angels can then use their full complement of actions to teleport in and do an alpha strike.

Really, though, I'd let the angels have a surprise round after teleporting in unless the party had managed to spot them before they did so. The rules on perception in 4e unfortunately don't take into account distance very much - just +2 to the DC for distances greater than 10 squares, so it's as easy to see something 5000 feet away as 50 - but the angels probably still have the stealth/perception advantage. A campfire at night should be a pretty easy spot DC, after all, depending on terrain and how the party tried to hide it (if they even thought to).

[Tegu8788]

One way to get around the issue and have a very interesting opening is have the angels teleport in from above , and dive bomb the party.