Hell's Laws

[Redcloth]

I recently found myself DM'ing a campaign that ventured to Hell. Before we decided to break for the summer (we all had things that prevented us from meeting up again) one of my players happened to gain a massive amount of knowledge on the laws of Hell. Instead of simply being able to accept that he knows a good amount of laws of Hell he instead requested a full list of laws of Hell. While I know that that is technically impossible I did want to try to get a fairly large list going and simply tack onto the end a "This is in no way a complete list and your character is aware of that fact. It also does not provide all of the major laws of Hell." Any help I could get for this would be great! Also, I am playing a more lawful than evil Hell.


So far this is what I've got. I know its not perfect. I know its not complete. And I know that my knowledge of D&D is fairly limited so I may have some specifics off. But its a basis for others to build their own setting's laws.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sIFUoFmJc5wUw1Jvly0mbLgzjWH7Gt1l2Ch6C9Hh8rE/edit

[weckar]

It should probably contain details on hell's hierarchy (souls at the bottom) and layers of loyalty. Also a good bit of contract law. Perhaps some clauses that cover the granting of divine magic.

[aleucard]

Probably go on about truces with various groups (devils, demons, Far Plane things, Angels, etcetera), various flavors of contract (the 'collect an idiot's soul before they make nuisances of themselves', 'put a leash on a potential problem before they become too big to deal with quietly', and 'recruit a viable non-Devil' varieties being prime examples), and how the various heiarchies and sub-divisions interlock. If possible, try and make this more of a Codex rather than an in-depth thing, and just detail the fiddly bits as the player asks about them. If this gets big enough, maybe show the rest of us what you come up with so we can have some fun with it (maybe refine it, maybe modify it or add possible modifications for various flavors of Devil, maybe use it as-is in our own campaign, whatever). Try looking into the anime series "Ah! My Goddess" and its myriad fanfictions for some ideas (of all varieties of Devil in the latter case, and not just for the fanservice either).

EDIT: Seriously, I could not recommend turning this project into a Codex higher. This will let you focus on describing how it works without having to invent Infernal Legalese. What's more, it will let you direct your attention towards what your players are interested in, not only freeing up time for more important things but also giving you an idea of where their thoughts are going (good for advance warning even if your players aren't the kind to spring things on you).

[Eldan]

Definitely complicated hierarchies. Also, the hierarchies aren't absolute. Hell should have clearly defined rules about who can command what, where and when. Do the Dark Six outrank a minister of Levistus in matters of the war? Do the gods of hell owe property taxes to Asmodeus for their realms? Do the Archons have an Embassy? Are their field officers and defence officers and how do they interact? And of course, based on a military saying, an explosives alchemist running for his live outranks everyone.

Then, separate from that, of course, customs. Technically, Prince X outranks all his underlings, but they all know he is weak, so they work around him.

[weckar]

666 laws to abide. Good luck.

[Eldan]

666 laws to abide. Good luck.

That sounds like a pretty small number, actually. I checked, even just the Swiss constitution has nearly 200 articles. The book of civil law has 967, plus 61 more in the appendix. 300 more in criminal law, about 450 in education law and so on. 9 areas total, so many thousands of law.

Yay! We beat hell in lawfulness!

[Cicciograna]

Tell your player to take the most comprehensive book on Roman Law he can muster.

Tell him to read it and learn it.

Now, tell him that in Hell every comma of each law in the book is expanded and detailed in another 666 books as big as the one he's just finished reading, containing the specs of each law for each type of denizen of Hell, of every social condition, living in each sector of each city of each subcountry of each territorial subdivision of each layer of Hell, according to its race, subrace, eventual templates, occupation, rank, perceived gender, bureaucratic gender, age, and 666 other parameters.

And then tell him that the sum of all the books pertaining all the laws with all the details you just mentioned is the 666th part of the so called Codex Infernalis.

Which is but the 1st of 666 branches that make up all the Infernal Bureaucracy.

[weckar]

I was referring to the song from The Devil's Carnival, but that's a really cool 666 expansion.

[Socratov]

I'd say that of you want to give him a lto of information, give him FCII to read. It's pretty much draconomicon for devils. On top of that I think Hell doesn't have laws as such, but more protocols with the added unbreakable law of a deal is a deal (and a debt a debt), no exceptions. Women have no fury like a devil cheated.

[Red Fel]

It's much simpler than that. And yet, so much more deliciously complicated.

Consider one humorous summary of the American tax code: "Section one says 'all income is taxable gain.' Sections two through two thousand say 'except the following.'"

That's basically what a Hell Code would say.

Section 1: All Devils are Lawful Evil, and expected to act in compliance with their nature, except as provided herein.
Section 2: Glossary.
Section 2.1: Devil: Any Outsider with the Lawful and Evil subtypes native to the plane commonly described as the Nine Hells.
Section 2.1.a: Exceptions: The following are not Devils, despite having the Lawful and Evil subtypes...
Section 2.2: Lawful, defined: ...
Section 2.2.a: Examples of Lawful conduct: ...
Section 2.3: Evil, defined: ...
Section 2.3.a: Examples of Evil conduct: ...
Section 3: Designations of Devils and their respective roles...
Section 4: Designations of the Hells, their respective governance and environments...
Section 5: Hierarchies and organizations...

And so forth. Basically, define everything. Outline everything. Footnote everything. Make exceptions to everything. Every rule is iron-clad and absolute, except where there are exceptions. And there are always exceptions. Every exception is applicable only in select circumstances. Every circumstance is select. Every section is at the same time outdated and immediately relevant. Every definition is both useless and entirely applicable. The code itself is so arcane and obtuse as to be incomprehensible; it is questionable whether any Devil, even Asmodeus himself, has read and understood the entire text, and yet every Devil is to be held accountable as if they had total knowledge of it, except where they are specifically exempted from compliance, as provided in the code. It's the kind of legal code that's constantly changing, yet never says anything new; new sections are added and old ones stricken, yet the sting remains constant, despite substantive changes.

If he honestly expects to have a comprehensive knowledge of Hell's laws, you could just ask him to make a Will save or go a little nuts from it.

[Socratov]

It's much simpler than that. And yet, so much more deliciously complicated.

Consider one humorous summary of the American tax code: "Section one says 'all income is taxable gain.' Sections two through two thousand say 'except the following.'"

That's basically what a Hell Code would say.

Section 1: All Devils are Lawful Evil, and expected to act in compliance with their nature, except as provided herein.
Section 2: Glossary.
Section 2.1: Devil: Any Outsider with the Lawful and Evil subtypes native to the plane commonly described as the Nine Hells.
Section 2.1.a: Exceptions: The following are not Devils, despite having the Lawful and Evil subtypes...
Section 2.2: Lawful, defined: ...
Section 2.2.a: Examples of Lawful conduct: ...
Section 2.3: Evil, defined: ...
Section 2.3.a: Examples of Evil conduct: ...
Section 3: Designations of Devils and their respective roles...
Section 4: Designations of the Hells, their respective governance and environments...
Section 5: Hierarchies and organizations...

And so forth. Basically, define everything. Outline everything. Footnote everything. Make exceptions to everything. Every rule is iron-clad and absolute, except where there are exceptions. And there are always exceptions. Every exception is applicable only in select circumstances. Every circumstance is select. Every section is at the same time outdated and immediately relevant. Every definition is both useless and entirely applicable. The code itself is so arcane and obtuse as to be incomprehensible; it is questionable whether any Devil, even Asmodeus himself, has read and understood the entire text, and yet every Devil is to be held accountable as if they had total knowledge of it, except where they are specifically exempted from compliance, as provided in the code. It's the kind of legal code that's constantly changing, yet never says anything new; new sections are added and old ones stricken, yet the sting remains constant, despite substantive changes.

If he honestly expects to have a comprehensive knowledge of Hell's laws, you could just ask him to make a Will save or go a little nuts from it.

I think you're quite lenient by allowing a willsave... I'd say "Sanity Damage, Stat!"

[weckar]

In the end, the laws of Hell are like the laws of physics. They are always there, can't be broken, and won't bite you in the ass until you try.

[Mnemnosyne]

One particular note is that there should be often-contradictory and conflicting laws, so that one law prohibits an activity, while another law prohibits the lack of that activity. There are loopholes, of course, but at any given time, you're probably in violation regardless of whether you take an action or don't. Which probably applies to almost any action you might take, or not take.

Have, for instance, a street marked with a one way sign. Thirty feet down, it's marked with another one way sign, in the other direction. Somewhere in the law code of that town are the exemptions that allow people to actually travel down the street, but the exemption isn't obvious. Every loophole requires a check to realize exactly what it is, even if you know the law itself word for word.

I'm not sure about the constant change idea though; the laws should be such that, in theory, you could learn all of them and comply with them via all the loopholes, but only the very oldest and most powerful of baatezu have enough extensive knowledge, experience, and creativity to use all the loopholes. And that is what makes you truly powerful on Baator; knowing every law and being able to think of a loophole for all of them.

[Redcloth]

A hearty thanks to everyone that has responded so far! You've given me a massive amount of ideas about how to go about this and what to include! When I'm further along in this project I'll put a link in the first post to a google doc that you'll all be able to view and comment on things :smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

By the way, I just realized that you aren't the same OP and this isn't a duplicate thread: you should look in the general roleplaying forum, there's another thread on the exactly same subject on the front page.

[Redcloth]

Heh, alright, thanks! I'll give it a look.

[Bullet06320]

take a trip to your local library with this player, the state I live in has a copy of the state satute books in every public library in it, its like 16 volumes, throw the entire set at him

after wards, detailing the major laws is fine, and allowing him to make the apropiate checks as needed should be fine

[atomicwaffle]

make it so as knowledge of hell's laws increases in him he becomes more corrupted. As he understands the knowledge more and more, he becomes progressively more devilish. To truly understand the law you must be a part of it.

[Arbane]

In the end, the laws of Hell are like the laws of physics. They are always there, can't be broken, and will bite you in the ass when you think you're 'winning'.

Fixed your typo.

[Redcloth]

make it so as knowledge of hell's laws increases in him he becomes more corrupted. As he understands the knowledge more and more, he becomes progressively more devilish. To truly understand the law you must be a part of it.

Hes already taking the Fiendish template. Hes slowly gaining the template over the next two levels. So corruption has already started, otherwise I'd love to mess with him a bit more :smalltongue:

[Slipperychicken]

Asking for a full list of hell's laws should be like asking for a full list of rules for 3.5.

[aleucard]

You know, this actually gives me an interesting idea for a character.

Basically, the PC is a 'debt collector' for the Contracts division of Hell. Depending on the type of Hell being deployed, he can be any flavor of Lawful, though I'd probably prefer LG just to make it extra-interesting and help me in particular be able to play the toon without wanting to wrap my own hands around my throat before too long. Main abilities are to blend in (transformation, illusions, mind-altering enchantments a la Jedi Mind Tricks, whatever works), and serve the collection portion to whomever at will (need to be able to preferably subdue any target, but kill is also viable depending on the contract). Will have a MASSIVE focus on various flavors of Knowledge of both the Planes in general and Contract Law in particular so that they can be served properly. Does his job so that the more stupid/dangerous elements of the Material Plane can be kept tabs on and possibly taken out before they do something that can't be recovered easily (for instance, opening a no-restrictions Gate to the Far Plane). Wouldn't be much of a stealth fighter if he can help it, but does have some skill in that field for when it's needed.

What races and classes/feats/etc. do you think would fit this bill the most? Alignment restrictions would go out the window.

EDIT: Hellbred looks like one of the best options so far (haven't looked at some of the feats available to Body, but Mind means I can get telepathic detection with only a single feat at level 15 along with some synergistic fluff/minor abilities), and Tiefling with the Lesser template (or without but with LA buyoff) should be at bare minimum viable. Anything better would be nice.

[CryptbornAkryea]

Hell, alucard, I want to play in a game based on that idea!
Hell Contract Dept. Collections Agency
Has a fun ring to it...

[aleucard]

Hell, alucard, I want to play in a game based on that idea!
Hell Contract Dept. Collections Agency
Has a fun ring to it...

Or just go full tilt and call it Wolfram and Hart. That's at the same time more and less subtle than that, depending on the listener's knowledge of certain TV shows.

[CryptbornAkryea]

Funny enough, I just failed my Knowledge (pop culture) check on that one.
Time to test my Bing-Fu...

edit:
Bing-Fu success! Love it, I'm in, lol.

Can I play the barely-restrained-murderhobo-warforged? I promise to pretend I have morals...

[aleucard]

Funny enough, I just failed my Knowledge (pop culture) check on that one.
Time to test my Bing-Fu...

edit:
Bing-Fu success! Love it, I'm in, lol.

Can I play the barely-restrained-murderhobo-warforged? I promise to pretend I have morals...

Gotta find a DM willing to cooperate with this madness first. PM me if you do.

[CryptbornAkryea]

Deal!

I have a fun gestalt toon that'd be perfect...

[Red Fel]

What races and classes/feats/etc. do you think would fit this bill the most? Alignment restrictions would go out the window.

EDIT: Hellbred looks like one of the best options so far (haven't looked at some of the feats available to Body, but Mind means I can get telepathic detection with only a single feat at level 15 along with some synergistic fluff/minor abilities), and Tiefling with the Lesser template (or without but with LA buyoff) should be at bare minimum viable. Anything better would be nice.

I would encourage LN rather than LG. LN can be surprisingly ruthless, but refreshing in that it's never needlessly cruel.

Towards that end, Hellbred may not be what you're looking for. For one thing, they look the part - the Scourging tends to leave them visibly Diabolical, which may cause some alarm. You want someone who looks quiet, unassuming, almost bureaucratic if need be. Humans are great, as are Elves; a Changeling could also be fun. If you want better detection, get a Psion (Telepath) with the Telepathy ACF for the Telepathy ability, then take Mindsight; for extra bizarre, slap it on a strange race like Tibbit or Beguiler. Better yet, if you take Half-Giant with the Primordial template, you're starting with a Psionic race and adding an SLA (your choice of Invisibility, Invisibility Purge or Levitate). It's a pretty sweet arrangement for +1 LA, has good mental stats, and renders you rather difficult to evade (either you can't be seen, or they can't be invisible, or you lift them into the air so they can't move). And it's useful for a process server to be large and in charge.

Archivist might be a nice choice, or Wu Jen, Psion, or Incarnate. Here's why on each.

Archivist: Archivists are literally by the book. But whereas a Wizard's book is a book of spells, and a Cleric might have a book of prayers, you have a book of Laws. And by invoking the laws, and their consequences, you can bring defeat upon those who would evade process.

Wu Jen: Wu Jen is much like Archivist as described above, but with a distinctly Asian flavor. The Taoist mystics and wizards upon which the Wu Jen is (loosely) based drew their power, in some literary sources, from the authority and laws of the Celestial Bureaucracy. In fact, a common way to express their spellcasting was the invocation "In accordance with the statutes and ordinances of heaven," followed by pewpew. Consider that.

Psion: Telepathy. Seriously, that's powerful stuff. Did you know there's a psionic feat that lets you expend your psionic focus to gain a massive Sense Motive boost? You know when others lie. It's called Inquisitor. Never fail a cross-examination again.

Incarnate (LN): You are the law. Seriously. The premise of Incarnate is embodying one of the cardinal alignments. You radiate Law. You are order. You are obedience. You are judge, jury, and executioner. Go forth and execute.


Or just go full tilt and call it Wolfram and Hart. That's at the same time more and less subtle than that, depending on the listener's knowledge of certain TV shows.

I rather like Milton, Chadwick & Waters. Or just go full-tilt and call it "The Morgenstern Group."

[aleucard]

I would encourage LN rather than LG. LN can be surprisingly ruthless, but refreshing in that it's never needlessly cruel.

Towards that end, Hellbred may not be what you're looking for. For one thing, they look the part - the Scourging tends to leave them visibly Diabolical, which may cause some alarm. You want someone who looks quiet, unassuming, almost bureaucratic if need be. Humans are great, as are Elves; a Changeling could also be fun. If you want better detection, get a Psion (Telepath) with the Telepathy ACF for the Telepathy ability, then take Mindsight; for extra bizarre, slap it on a strange race like Tibbit or Beguiler. Better yet, if you take Half-Giant with the Primordial template, you're starting with a Psionic race and adding an SLA (your choice of Invisibility, Invisibility Purge or Levitate). It's a pretty sweet arrangement for +1 LA, has good mental stats, and renders you rather difficult to evade (either you can't be seen, or they can't be invisible, or you lift them into the air so they can't move). And it's useful for a process server to be large and in charge.

Archivist might be a nice choice, or Wu Jen, Psion, or Incarnate. Here's why on each.

Archivist: Archivists are literally by the book. But whereas a Wizard's book is a book of spells, and a Cleric might have a book of prayers, you have a book of Laws. And by invoking the laws, and their consequences, you can bring defeat upon those who would evade process.

Wu Jen: Wu Jen is much like Archivist as described above, but with a distinctly Asian flavor. The Taoist mystics and wizards upon which the Wu Jen is (loosely) based drew their power, in some literary sources, from the authority and laws of the Celestial Bureaucracy. In fact, a common way to express their spellcasting was the invocation "In accordance with the statutes and ordinances of heaven," followed by pewpew. Consider that.

Psion: Telepathy. Seriously, that's powerful stuff. Did you know there's a psionic feat that lets you expend your psionic focus to gain a massive Sense Motive boost? You know when others lie. It's called Inquisitor. Never fail a cross-examination again.

Incarnate (LN): You are the law. Seriously. The premise of Incarnate is embodying one of the cardinal alignments. You radiate Law. You are order. You are obedience. You are judge, jury, and executioner. Go forth and execute.



I rather like Milton, Chadwick & Waters. Or just go full-tilt and call it "The Morgenstern Group."

The thing with Hellbred is that I WANT him to look the part. When he's on the job, I want whomever the contractee is to take one look at my guy and immediately realize that the contract is in play. Making him not look the part (whether that be because my guy's on downtime and needs to be in society without being looked at funny or because his job requires some finesse that looking like a monstrosity wouldn't help) can come with other methods.

Archivist, Wu Jen, and Psion (that ACF is a bit iffy on count of being online, but still good) are all interesting for this (I have no comprehension of MoI in the slightest, though, so Incarnate is out). The only real problem is that this character needs to be able to take care of business in all situations, and none of these save (to a point) the Archivist are all that well-equipped for CQC, and that would be a pretty big hole for something like this. Gish builds exist (and PsiWar is native), but I'd prefer to stand to the KISS principle and have as little of my multi-classing involve base classes as possible.

[Slipperychicken]

Basically, the PC is a 'debt collector' for the Contracts division of Hell. Depending on the type of Hell being deployed, he can be any flavor of Lawful, though I'd probably prefer LG just to make it extra-interesting and help me in particular be able to play the toon without wanting to wrap my own hands around my throat before too long. Main abilities are to blend in (transformation, illusions, mind-altering enchantments a la Jedi Mind Tricks, whatever works), and serve the collection portion to whomever at will (need to be able to preferably subdue any target, but kill is also viable depending on the contract). Will have a MASSIVE focus on various flavors of Knowledge of both the Planes in general and Contract Law in particular so that they can be served properly. Does his job so that the more stupid/dangerous elements of the Material Plane can be kept tabs on and possibly taken out before they do something that can't be recovered easily (for instance, opening a no-restrictions Gate to the Far Plane). Wouldn't be much of a stealth fighter if he can help it, but does have some skill in that field for when it's needed.


Bonus points if the PC is working as a 'collector' to pay off his own faustian debt and earn his way out of hell. Of course, no-one ever tells him how much more debt he needs to work off, and every little mistake he makes adds to the debt. If he screws up too much, his manager can move him to bathroom detail (in which case he'll never get out of hell) or just assign him to permanent unpaid leave in the inferno (which does leave open the possibility of being called back).