I'm The Very Model Of.....[Optimization Challenge]

[Pyromancer999]

.....what an ordinary citizen in a D&D universe can achieve. If you look at the earlier books and various campaign settings(such as Eberron), you realize that NPC classes and the like were actually supposed to be more used than they are, because they represent what an ordinary, non-special(read: Anyone who isn't a PC, maybe PC ally, or Villain PCs will face) D&D person is supposed to be able to achieve.

So going off of that, I'm wondering how powerful a D&D NPC could get if they just stuck with NPC class levels and maybe levels in a Racial Paragon.

Rules:

Must use only NPC base class levels for its base classes, with Racial Paragon Class levels being permissible, as one can be just as Dwarven being a Dwarf Miner as a Dwarf Fighter and the like.
You may not use feats, prestige classes, and the like from more than one campaign setting.
You cannot use any feats that would require someone to be a rare example of their race(such as Dragonwrought and the like), although regional feats and the like are perfectly fine.
Otherwise, with the restrictions above, all prestige classes, feats, and the like are permissible
May only use races in Core, with no templates allowed
Must use the Non-elite array for ability scores(13,12,11,10,9,8)
20-level build
Uses NPC Wealth By Level (http://www.dndarchive.com/forums/depth-roleplay-qa/character-wealth-level)for items


Bonus Restrictions(If you're looking for an extra challenge, may use one or both of the following as you please):
-No more than three magic items, seeing as NPCs aren't likely to be Christmas Trees like your average PC, only having a few items on them at a time.
-6th level build. According to an article here (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2), most people wouldn't reach higher than 6th level, so this would be more "realistic" for an NPC.


So, how much do you think you can optimize the common man in a D&D universe?

[Gavinfoxx]

I expect we'll see some Religious Adepts and Magewrights, maybe..

A long time ago, I did a writeup for making cities (for a strategy game) that show a variety of NPC classes and such:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?p=5194640#post5194640

[Forrestfire]

This looks like a job for Bubs. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38) Dumping the marshal level and using normal halfling instead of Strongheart still works fine, because we've got 6 levels to do it with.

[sideswipe]

i am unclear. you said only npc base classes and then said prestige classes allowed.

which is it?

[Pyromancer999]

This looks like a job for Bubs. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38) Dumping the marshal level and using normal halfling instead of Strongheart still works fine, because we've got 6 levels to do it with.

Dang, that's a pretty powerful build.


i am unclear. you said only npc base classes and then said prestige classes allowed.

which is it?

Only NPC Classes for the base class levels. You can use whatever Prestige Classes you want from there.

[Karnith]

While starting with a base casting stat of 13 would be annoying, Expert 2/Warrior 2 (plus another class level) sets you up for entrance into Ur-Priest, and all the silliness that entails.

[sideswipe]

well before you cleared up that you could use real prestige classes
(though why i don't know because prestige classes are supposed to be the elite of the elite and you, by the fluff of the challenge, want joe mc average.) i was building this. i am nowhere near finished but i have class levels, feats and abilities.

i have spent 50 gold so far. (and assume to spend some on a quick razor)
i also have some work to do on it but i will scrap it now.
though if i just replaced the last 10 levels of expert with iaijitsu master then i guess it would work so change that.

but this is what i got using only npc classes.

JIM JIMSON
optimisation challenge npc.
20 levels. half elf 13/12/11/10/9/8

str 18/+4 (11 +2 +2 +1 +1 +1)
dex 10/0 (9 + 1)
con 10/0
int 8/-1
wis 14/+2 (13 +1)
cha 12/+1


(base att/ fort/ reflex/ will)
1. expert 1 - 0/0/0/2 trait absent minded, flaws - shakey, milky eyed
feats, knowledge devotion (planes)/born under setting sun (con class skill, +1 2 knowledge skills), nymphs kiss.
2. adept 1 - 0/0/0/4
3. warrior 1 - 1/2/0/4 ex weap prof gnomish quick razor
4. half elf para 1 - 1/2/2/4 weapon focus gnomish quick razor, elven vision, +1 wis
5. half elf para 2 - 2/2/3/4 persuasion (+2 cha skills), +1 adept casting
6. half elf para 3 - 3/3/3/5 +2 str
7. human para 1 - 3/3/3/7 adaptive learning iaijitsu focus, martial study sapphire nightmare blade.
8. human para 2 - 4/3/3/8 quick draw +1 adept casting, +1 str
9. human para 3 - 5/4/4/8 +2 str, +1 adept casting mercurial strike
10.adept 2 - 6/4/4/9 familiar (to be announced)
11 expert 2- 7/4/4/10
12.expert 3- 8/5/5/10 +1 str, skill focus concentration
13.expert 4- 9/5/5/11
14.expert 5- 9/5/5/11
15.expert 6 - 10/6/6/12 skill focus iaijitsu focus
16.expert 7- 11/6/6/12 +1 str,
17.expert 8- 12/6/6/13
18.expert 9- 12/7/7/13 martial study lightning recovery.
19.expert 10- 13/7/7/14
20.expert 11- 14/7/7/14 +1 dex,

HD 8+,6,8,8,8,8,8,8,6,6x11 hp = 78hp (max/min rules)

skill ranks 24+2+2+4+4+4+4+4+4+2+6+6+6+6+6+6+6+6+6+6 = 114

important skills

concentration, 23 + 3 = 26
knowledge arc, 15 - 1 + 1 + 1 = 16
religion 16 + 1 - 1 = 16
planes 16 + 1 - 1 + 1 = 17
dungeon 15 + 1 - 1 = 15
nature 15 + 1 - 1 = 15
local 15 + 1 - 1 = 15
iaijitsu focus 23 + 1 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 30
diplomacy 3 + 1 + 2 + 2 = 8
listen 3 + 2 = 5

+2 m/w item of iai focus

lawful good, champion of the city guard (as he is the most experienced, not because he has stupid magical powers)
like most half elves, he never fit in, training first as a librarian, then as a member of his church gaining some understanding of magic. then one day was conscripted to the city guard as a war was approaching. his captain, a gnome iaijitsu master, taught him some of the techniques and how to use a quick razor. his city was all but wiped out.

throughout his whole adult life he was completely devoted to a nymph, who although had many better suitors, grew to liking him and became his wife. when the city was sacked he managed to escape with his wife at the last moment.

he found a small newly set up hamlet of elves, men and half elves and decided to study what it truly meant to be both, both his elf and human heritage. but the elves shunned him a little for being only half so he found the real meaning of half elf. then human. he was reminded of his old master and remembered one of his old fighting tricks, so practised, along with how to be a true human, until he had mastered both.

with his abilities in magic coming along nicely he concentrated on them after his profound experiences. finding a magical creature (to be announced what) one day by a pool of water whilst walking with his wife.

the familiar, being smaller then him, reminded him of his old captain, and he trained daily, both with his books and his quick razor, researching foes weaknesses and how to exploit them in a single manoeuvre.

one day after feeling he had accomplished all he could in his hamlet, he set out for the neighbouring kingdom. to their capitol, to find his fame. when he arrived and became a guard they quickly found that he had more skill then almost any other in their city. and he rose through the ranks quickly, never losing a fight, never being bested, and was proclaimed the cities champion of the city guard.

[Karnith]

For the 20th-level builds, 9ths are also achievable through Apostle of Peace or Sublime Chord (using a Magewright/Expert/Virtuoso entry). It also looks like you could squeak out double 9ths using something like Magewright 7/Apostle of Peace 2/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 8, though the skill points would be pretty tight (Human using VoP to grab Nymph's Kiss at level 1 looks like it'd manage) and the MAD would be annoying.

[Gemini476]

Most ordinary citizens - like, 91% of them - are going to be straight-classed Commoners. Commoner 1, generally.
Very, very few will be even Commoner 2, although they do exist. Metropoli tend to have four Commoner 20s, eight Commoner 10s, sixteen Commoner 5s, thirty-two Commoner 2s, and twenty-something thousand Commoner 1s.
5% of citizens will be Warriors, 3% experts, and the other 1% is split equally between Adepts and Aristocrats.
That's after you've determined how many there are with NPC classes, of course, but those are pretty uncommon - in a thorp it's unlikely for half of them to even be represented.
All this is extrapolating from the DMG Demographics tables - page 139, specifically.

I'm also fairly certain that the nonelite array is used for the Warrior and Adept rather than the Commoner, but I suppose it doesn't make much difference.

As for what a Commoner 6 could do, that's quite a lot. Even a Commoner 1 can cheese the system with Handle Animal, but by the point you reach level 6 you have an additional 5,600gp to spend on stuff. You can do a surprising amount of things with 5,600gp.

The Expert also has native access to Lucid Dreaming, Autohypnosis, and Iajutsu Focus, while I guess the Warrior has Full BAB which means that yeah he's probably one of the worst off.

Also, the Adept is a Tier 4 class and is actually pretty good! It has near-exclusive access to the Hexer, for instance, and getting up to 5th-level utility spells can be surprisingly useful. They have spells like Polymorph and Major Creation, so really all bets are off. Not to mention Animate Dead or Protection From Evil. It's not very difficult to break the game as an Adept. Not very difficult at all.
Also, they have a improved Familiar. That's fairly useful, even if they can't grab Improved Familiar. The lack of an arcane caster level hurts them when it comes to choosing familiar-specific feats, but yeah.

By the way, why do you allow access to prestige classes? Those are very much not something accessible to the average citizen, since they're mostly pretty fluff-specific on who can take them and those people aren't exactly ordinary. If you are trying to give an example of an ordinary person IRL, you do not suggest a celebrity actor or a Navy SEAL or someone who graduated a prestigious university - those are the types of things that Prestige Classes are. There are some exceptions, of course, but by your existing system an Adept 5/Horizon Walker 1 is still an "ordinary person".

[sideswipe]

i did post my build hoping someone would comment on it a little. i wanted to know if (using only npc and paragon classes, not prestige) i was on track for a powerful melee build, sitll had some adept levels for the buffs and had a relatively decent amount of damage output before adding items. with a to hit of 16/17 before item buffs, and against flat footed a large amount of the time.
didnt add items though

[Pyromancer999]

Wow. Some interesting builds.

As for why I made allowances for Prestige Classes:

The point of the challenge isn't so much to see Mark McAverage, but to see what Mark McAverage could be if he tried his hardest. Since the entire point of NPC classes were to be that they were ordinary citizens that weren't special from birth like a PC, it's more of a wondering what an average person could be if they tried their hardest, even if they weren't a destiny-chosen person like the PCs.

[Jack_Simth]

The point of the challenge isn't so much to see Mark McAverage, but to see what Mark McAverage could be if he tried his hardest. Since the entire point of NPC classes were to be that they were ordinary citizens that weren't special from birth like a PC, it's more of a wondering what an average person could be if they tried their hardest, even if they weren't a destiny-chosen person like the PCs.
Let's see... Expert-15/Adept-5. Max UMD. Get a snake familiar. Get a scroll of Shapechange. Turn into a Sarruk. Grant your familiar Manipulate Form. Shapechange into something that can accept the results of manipulate Form. Have your familiar go to town.

So... yeah. ANYTHING is possible. Literally.

[XmonkTad]

A Kobold Expert with maxed Craft(Trapmaking) can take 20 on a survival check and make free booby traps all day. Not exactly high-op, but Pun-pun help you when he starts using handle animal to get free poisons too.