Point Buy and Character Creation.

[AstralFire]

Currently about to GM a PF Eberron game with 25 point-buy and a fair amount of homebrew rules; I've given people an extra feat at first level, collapsed TWF into one feat, collapsed a bunch of stuff into fewer feats... Thrown some quick improvements out for Monks and Rogues. That sort of thing. You can see the full list of what I've done here (http://swords-over-sharn.wikidot.com/feats) and here (http://swords-over-sharn.wikidot.com/archetypes) and there (http://swords-over-sharn.wikidot.com/skills) and there too (http://swords-over-sharn.wikidot.com/equipment), and if anyone has any further input, I'd welcome it.

Anyway, bottom line is, I don't mind powerful PCs, but I like my PCs to have a wide array of options available to them. I like 25 PB in PF because it's fairly generous with the points, I think, but not so generous that people are completely disincentivized from taking a 7 here or there. I like the occasional negative stat to go with a high peak.

One of my players would rather I move to 32 or 34 PB or move to arrays, because she feels rather restricted with martial characters. I'd like input on whether or not this move would be a good idea (note: we start at level 1), or if there's some other way to accomplish this simply.

[weckar]

A higher point buy for martials vs spellcasters would go a long way to represent the different types of training regimes they undergo before they enter first level.

[AstralFire]

I am considering 32 Martial, 25 9th Level Casters. She wants to push for 20 on T1s, but that runs into an issue for higher level characters where it might be more optimal to be first level martial, rest prepared caster. I want to keep a bright line and I expect players not to abuse their spellcasting to elevate themselves where you can see a clear T1/T2 distinction.

[squiggit]

It might help a bit, but not a ton for martials. Still a bigger PB could be fun and make MAD things like fighters, monks or magii feel better.

Any chance the player is a 3.5 player? Because one thing I've seen people forget from time to time is that PF's 25 PB is equivalent to 3.5 37 PB.

[jaydubs]

In my experience, 20 point buy is the norm, and 25 point buy gives a fair amount of freedom. So you're certainly not being stingy. 30 point buy gives more freedom, but also produces more powerful characters.

If I were to guess, I figure she might be concerned about playing a MAD class. Or maybe she doesn't want to choose between sacrificing combat ability and playing a stupid/foolish/socially awkward character. I've seen a lot of fighters end up with 7/7/7 int/wis/cha.

You might consider offering both options if that's the case. An array like 16 14 14 14 12 12 comes out to 29 points, and is a much more generalist stat line. Or players can use 25 point buy to their liking.

You should also keep in mind, that if you start at level 1, there's a very good chance most if not all of the campaign will be at levels where martial characters are very relevant. Most of my games, for instance, stop at or below the low teens. And martials tend to suffer more from "nothing to do out of combat" than "overshadowed by casters during battle." A general stat array to pick up some skills would help with that.


A higher point buy for martials vs spellcasters would go a long way to represent the different types of training regimes they undergo before they enter first level.

It seems reasonable that caster training would increase mental stats much like martial training would increases physical stats. So it would probably be a wash.

[Azraile]

I would let them do the standard 4d6 drop 1, and give them the option of falling back on 25 point buy if the rolls are bad.

[Jigawatts]

Anytime we would do a point buy, such as when running an AP, PC's use the following set instead, placed however desired, then add racial adjustments.

16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11

Then again, I abhor "stat dumping". That stat array works out really well for most character concepts, and a character can still have a stat in the negatives if he wanted (actually had a dwarf barbarian with a 9 Cha last campaign, he RP'ed the crap out of it too).

Although for homebrew campaigns, we still roll, we're old school like that. :smallbiggrin:

[AstralFire]

See, I love stat dumping, because it gives me a weakness to needle and also more clear areas where I can give someone a chance to shine. It makes things more interesting when one guy has to be very selective what items he can carry because he has 6 Strength, another acts like a complete moron in social situations, a third is oblivious unless she's putting her mind to something and then she's smart as a whip...

Arrays personally bore me because everyone ends up pretty "okay" all around, and while that should be a choice, I prefer seeing a few people with highs and lows. My ideal character-I-never-get-to-play because always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-PC dumps Str and Wis while being optimized elsewhere. But then, I'm the person who will still run a trap-heavy dungeon even if there's no trapfinders in the party just to remind people that those are useful...

I think I'm going to go with the 32 points martial, 25 points full caster after some time to think about it. Anyone who really wants to rock dual 18s can, but will have to carry at least one negative stat before racials. Thanks for the input.

[Sayt]

Well, a Dwarf Fighter/Barbarian 1 with a 32 point PF buy can start with 18, 10, 18, 10, 16, 8 and then multiclass immediately into, IDK, Psywar? Cleric?

And as for double 18s, they can drop their wis to 15 and buy off the charisma penalty and bump to 16 at 4th, 32 and 25 point buys are awful large for Pathfinder, which is appealing to me as a player, but worries the DM in me, but you seem to know what you're doing. I also like the idea of higher tiered classes getting a smaller point buy, as they tend to be (but aren't always) less MAD.

At any rate, I have a bunch of feat edits and homebrewed feats in here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DAa56igA6jy3e1Ky5tmzauBl3zjQC-fXs6WuX7zm43M/edit#) which you're free to appraise and poach, if you want. Some of it is new, some of it is borrowed or inspired from other sources.

[Talya]

I found anything less than 32 in 3.5 to be almost unworkable. 40 was ideal.

Now, PF handles the buy differently. Despite starting at 10, 25 is generally less than 32 (but not always, it depends how you were assigning your stats.)

I hate how extremely high ability scores in PF cost even more than in 3.5, though.

Now, if you start from 8's across the board, a PF character on a 25 point buy actually has 37 to work with, and can be directly compared against 3.5.

From 8's:

Scores of 8 through 13 cost the same in both games.
14's and 15's cost 1 more point in PF than they do in 3.5.
16's and 17's cost 2 more points in PF than they do in 3.5
18's cost 3 more points in PF than they do in 3.5.

So a 32 PB can get you 14's across the board, and a single 15 in 3.5
In PF, 14's across the board requires a 32 point buy, and you can't do it on 25 point PF buy.
An 18, four 12's, and a 10 in PF costs 25 points. In 3.5, that setup will cost you 34 points, so in that case, PF is giving you more.

Basically, the more abilities you want above 13, the more restrictive PF gets.

[QuackParker]

I've actually come to appreciate lower point buys at the start. That said, an easier way to give your players options if you really, really don't mind overpowered PCs is to give them a rank of mythic at the start.

[torrasque666]

I found anything less than 32 in 3.5 to be almost unworkable. 40 was ideal.

Wait, you find anything less than a high-powered point buy UNWORKABLE? Wow, really?

[Talya]

Wait, you find anything less than a high-powered point buy UNWORKABLE? Wow, really?

I don't play RPGs in order to play regular people. I am already regular people.

You can't build anything like a TV/Movie hero on a 25 point buy in 3.5. If you're even moderately strong in one area, you end up unacceptably weak in another. If you're a strong, tough and agile melee combatant*, for example, you must also be a weak-willed, irritating idiot. That's really unacceptable. If you're well rounded in other areas, you can't be exceptional in another.


* - Actually on a 25 point buy, you can barely even be strong, tough and agile. You can manage a 14/15/16 spread across the three ability scores with 1 point left over, but that's not going to make you into more than a decently competent melee character. You'll still end up being a weak-willed, irritating idiot, however.