PDA

View Full Version : Advisable Sorceror Spells For Summoner



Thrawn183
2007-02-22, 09:36 PM
I am looking to start a 7th level sorceror (My first arcane caster other than a Bard). I plan on having him/her concentrate mostly on summoning.
28 pt. buy
Feats that I have looked at so far:
Augment Summon
Metamagic School Focus, Conjuration (Complete Mage)
Spell Focus
Rapid Spell(Complete Divine)
(These aren't set in stone but I'm really looking for spell selection)

The campaign I am going to play in will involve fighting almost exclusively undead and constructs (the DM may play with their abilities a little bit, but I can't prepare for what I don't know is going to be changed)

What spells would YOU recommend? I know to stay away from things that are mind affecting, and possibly things that allow spell resistance. I might just go for buffing and battlefield control rather than simply damage output. Any help would be greatly appreciated. (And I really hope this doesn't turn into a Sorc. vs. Wiz. battle)
Thank you in advance!

Leon
2007-02-22, 10:50 PM
Summon Monster "x" is the basis for all your needs

Arceliar
2007-02-22, 11:25 PM
Summon Swarm might be worth it. Most undead and constructs lack intelligence, and hence will be too stupid to attack the caster instead of flailing around missing the swarm.

Of course, undead and constructs also often have damage reduction...but that's why the Concentration duration can be nice.

oriong
2007-02-22, 11:28 PM
Well, I'd stick with only summon monster III,

Instead of Summon Monster II just stick with Summon Swarm, it'll be far more effective for your level.

Since you went to the trouble of getting Spell Focus (I assume it's in conjuration), you obviously owe it to yourself to get at least a couple of conjuration spells with saving throws.

Invisibility is pretty much a must-have for a summoner, since summoning creatures doesn't break your invisibility.

You should have at least one or two direct offense spells to fall back on, because they do have their uses. I'd suggest at least one of the lesser orbs (it'll do 4d8 damage, no save, no SR) and/or Scorching ray, but if you pick the orbs go for Acid.

Other than that look to battlefield control which conjuration is great at: grease, web, stinking cloud, etc.

Raum
2007-02-22, 11:37 PM
If you're going to be fighting undead and constructs I'd look at getting a ray or orb damage spell (no SR no save) and metamagic feats such as empower and maximize. You'll also want to pick up True Strike for those times you can't afford to miss. Somewhere (I couldn't find it, hopefully someone else will know) there's a sorceror variant allowing easier use of metamagic. If you DM will let you use that, I'd also recommend picking up quicken by level 12.

Other spells useful against constructs and undead: Solid Fog, any force spell (for incorporeal undead), Fly, Haste, Slow, Ray of Clumsiness, Unluck (it's not mind affecting), and don't forget basic defenses and buffs.

Variable Arcana
2007-02-23, 12:02 AM
For your second 3rd level spell, you might think about Phantom Steed (the mobility is great for keeping out of the way while your minions fight) or Haste (to boost the power of your summoned minions).

(I'd also spend some time thinking about what creatures you'll summon; when you might prefer 1d4+1 celestial badgers to 1 celestial dire badge; and such... once you've got the creatures you're likely to be summoning, a natural companion spell may suggest itself -- an area attack they are immune to, an enhancement that addresses one of their weaknesses...)

If you're sure you're going to be facing many constructs, Shatter might be worthwhile (7d6 damage (Fort save for half) with no ranged touch required) -- unless you mean golems, which are likely immune.

Against undead, Halt Undead (3rd level) is nice if you're going to be facing lots of high-HD zombies. Not so much if you're facing a lich or vampire. Same with Command Undead (2nd level).

If you're likely to be facing incorporeal undead... then you may want things like mage armor and magic missile. Possibly also "ghost touch" (I can't remember what level that is).

oriong
2007-02-23, 12:05 AM
I would disagree on the phantom steed thing, the only use of phantom steed is really overland maneuverability (keep in mind the casting time is 10 minutes), if you want to keep yourself out of reach in combat get fly.

Dausuul
2007-02-23, 12:40 AM
Things to get:

Augment Summoning feat--pretty much required.
Invisibility--as someone else pointed out, summoning doesn't break it, which makes it teh win for you.
Haste--the more allies you have, the better Haste gets.

You might also consider one or two Lesser Metamagic Rods of Extend Spell, so you can cast several summons before the battle starts (assuming you get enough warning) and then drop Haste on them.

And since you have to have Spell Focus (Conjuration) to get Augment Summoning, you should also pick up some conjuration save-or-suck spells. I highly recommend Glitterdust.

Kantolin
2007-02-23, 02:43 AM
the only use of phantom steed is really overland maneuverability
Yeah, but it has a duration of hour/level. Not too bad, and from level 14 on it can also fly, making it comparably better if you take ride levels.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-02-23, 06:07 AM
Summon Swarm might be worth it. Most undead and constructs lack intelligence, and hence will be too stupid to attack the caster instead of flailing around missing the swarm.

Of course, undead and constructs also often have damage reduction...but that's why the Concentration duration can be nice.

The suggestion would have been good if Swarms attacked Undead.
Most Swarms only attack living prey and a few are even restricted to warmblooded prey.

Using it on Undead would only result in the Swarm attacking your own party with Undead assistance. :smalltongue:

oriong
2007-02-23, 10:02 AM
Yeah, but it has a duration of hour/level. Not too bad, and from level 14 on it can also fly, making it comparably better if you take ride levels.

No, not really. Just buy a horse, at 7th level the horse isn't going to be as fast, but really that's the only difference and you won't be giving up a valuable spell slot for something you'll only be casting once per day (and getting limited use out of).

Telonius
2007-02-23, 10:15 AM
Silent Spell might be a good feat for you, especially if you're going to be casting while invisible. An item of Speak with Animals, 2 or 3/day, is nice if you want to direct the attacks of unintelligent summoned creatures. Otherwise they just attack to the best of their ability, without strategy.

Jimp
2007-02-23, 10:48 AM
Have a look at your Summon Monster lists and find the monsters that work best. For example, Summon Monster 2 lets you summon a Lemure, which has damage reduction, fire immunity and some other bonuses or a Celestial Bison which has a good melee attack and other celesrial goodness. Summon Monster 3 lets you summon a Dretch which has more DR and more handy bonuses.
Check out this thread for summoning advice and a updated list of monsters that you can summon. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=216497)
Make sure to check what monsters were added from MM2 and Fiend Folio. They're on that thread. Some of them are pretty good.

Awetugiw
2007-02-23, 10:58 AM
Too bad you're only level 7. At level 8, lantern archons are a really cool summon. No DR for you!

Fax Celestis
2007-02-23, 11:13 AM
You could grab the Summon Undeads, or UMD a wand of Summon Nature's Ally I or II for some extra creations.

Toliudar
2007-02-23, 11:34 AM
I'm not sure if Sorcerers can use wands of Summon Nature's Ally, but perhaps I'm not understanding something.

Web is a fun battlefield control spell, and will still work with undead and constructs.

I echo the recommendations for at least one lesser orb spell, invisibility and haste. Fly over phantom steed, if only because phantom steed negates your invisibility (unless you also cast it on your steed)

I'm a fan of the Alienist prestige class, which works well for summoners, but it doesn't mesh well with some campaigns. Plus, I think you've already got the requirements, and could (I think) have Sorcerer 6/Alienist 1 without really losing anything.

Person_Man
2007-02-23, 11:45 AM
Libris Mortis has a bunch of useful Undead Summoning feats. If that's what you focus on, even simple skeletons can end up being pretty darn powerful.

Were-Sandwich
2007-02-23, 11:47 AM
See if you can swing the Personalised Summoning List variant from Ua past your DM. You can create some great themed lists that way

Fax Celestis
2007-02-23, 11:55 AM
I'm not sure if Sorcerers can use wands of Summon Nature's Ally, but perhaps I'm not understanding something.

You can use UMD to emulate having a spell on your spell list. It requires a check, but with enough Cha and UMD, you can do almost anything.


Use a Wand
Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.


It's a set DC of 20. A first-level Sorceror with 16 Cha (not unreasonable) and 2 cross-class ranks has a +5. The OP's 7th level character could potentially have 20 Cha (+5) and 5 cross class ranks (+5), for a total of +10, which is a success more than 50% of the time. A one-level dip in a class with UMD and taking the Adaptable Learning feat would make that 10 class ranks, +5 Cha, for a success 80% of the time.

Maelstrom
2007-02-23, 12:08 PM
The suggestion would have been good if Swarms attacked Undead.
Most Swarms only attack living prey and a few are even restricted to warmblooded prey.

Using it on Undead would only result in the Swarm attacking your own party with Undead assistance. :smalltongue:


You summon a swarm of bats, rats, or spiders (your choice), which attacks all other creatures within its area. (You may summon the swarm so that it shares the area of other creatures.) If no living creatures are within its area, the swarm attacks or pursues the nearest creature as best it can. The caster has no control over its target or direction of travel.

I would rule that living==moving, since it is only stated once, sandwiched in between two generic "all other creatures" and "nearest creature". Undead/Constructs are not specifically ruled out

Thrawn183
2007-02-23, 12:27 PM
I really like the advice you guys are giving. A clarification: this will be a short campaign, I doubt the character will exceed 9th level. That's why I chose this campaign to experiment with something I've never even come close to trying before.

Any further advice would be greatly appreciated! And thank you again.

Person_Man
2007-02-23, 12:51 PM
I really like the advice you guys are giving. A clarification: this will be a short campaign, I doubt the character will exceed 9th level. That's why I chose this campaign to experiment with something I've never even come close to trying before.

Any further advice would be greatly appreciated! And thank you again.

Though I would otherwise rarely advise it, if you want to play a strong pure summoner for a short campaign, you might want to play a Dread Necromancer (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=759515). While its mechanically weaker then other casters, its very good at summoning and controlling undead. And the strong class features are mostly in the first 8 levels, especially the Fear Aura, which dovetails nicely with other Necro spells and the whole summoning undead to keep enemies away from me tactic. If you're interested, its in Heroes of Horror.

Having said that, we can pretty easily optimize a Sorcerer or Wizard to be a stronger summoner, but it would require a bunch of suppliments you may not have access to.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-02-23, 01:19 PM
I would rule that living==moving, since it is only stated once, sandwiched in between two generic "all other creatures" and "nearest creature". Undead/Constructs are not specifically ruled out

You could certainly house rule it that way, but living still means living.


A bat swarm seeks to surround and attack any warm-blooded prey it encounters. ...

A centipede swarm seeks to surround and attack any living prey it encounters. ...


Like any swarm, a hellwasp swarm seeks to surround and attack any living prey it encounters. ...


A locust swarm surrounds and attacks any living prey it encounters. ...


A rat swarm seeks to surround and attack any warm-blooded prey it encounters. ...

A spider swarm seeks to surround and attack any living prey it encounters. ...


Do you still think it is a coincidence that emphasis is placed on the creature being alive?

Thrawn183
2007-02-23, 03:24 PM
Having said that, we can pretty easily optimize a Sorcerer or Wizard to be a stronger summoner, but it would require a bunch of suppliments you may not have access to.

I actually have pretty much every book at my disposal thanks to my DM loving buying them. (I even planned to buy complete scoundrel as my donation to the gaming group and she beat me to the punch :smallmad: )

cupkeyk
2007-02-23, 07:31 PM
Aside from summoning, you can maximize your Spell Focus Conju with conju save-or-suck's or save-or-halves like Acid Breathe or Glitterdust.

But my real advice is that Sorcs suck, go Wiz.

Collin152
2007-02-23, 08:01 PM
Wizards? Summoning? No. When you want to fill a specific Niche, nobody does it like a sorc.

cupkeyk
2007-02-23, 08:10 PM
Why wall yourself in at all?

Collin152
2007-02-23, 08:18 PM
Who cares? That's what he's doing, so be helpful.

Thrawn183
2007-02-24, 08:53 AM
Who cares? That's what he's doing, so be helpful.

Thank you, I'm honored to be defended. I came up with a summoning sorceror because I knew the party was going to be composed of a druid, skillmonkey (that is apparently not useless against undead and constructs) and a warmage. I perceived a distinct lack of tanking ability. I have just recently finished playing a tank and was looking to play something else that could (though I know not amazingly well) play the same roll/ set up flanking goodness etc.

cupkeyk
2007-02-24, 09:08 AM
Druid and warmage... one zoomaster and one blaster. You need a swissknife/batman more than another summoner.

Otherwise I already gave my spell suggestions: Acid Breath and Glitterdust. Add Baleful Transposition which is an awesome Conju battlefield control spell. by level nine you will have a fourth level slot and access to Anticipate Teleportation for nine hours a day. You can just send two opponents to the astral plane for a round with Anticipate Teleportation and Baleful Transposition. Cheap ass mini maze/shadow well.

Once again, the druid will be a better summoner than you.

Jack_Simth
2007-02-24, 09:18 AM
Short term? Summon Monster X, obviously.

Long term?

Magic Circle Against {alignment}, Dimensional Anchor, Dispel Magic (to get rid of your Dimensional Anchor), Dismissal, and something in the Planar Binding line. You'll also want Moment of Prescience, when it becomes available (as it works on opposed ability checks).

As a Sorcerer, the Charisma checks will pretty much be a breeze (you'll be pumping Charisma anyway).

Search the Monster Manuals for Outsiders and Elementals that match your purposes - you want a guard, a warrior, a healer, and so on; the key, though, being that it's not so much the critters specific abilities that matter, but the critter's default personality. Asking a critter to do something in line with it's nature makes it less likely to fight you about it (this is actually in the description of the Planar Binding line of spells - although it's worded as giving you a bonus on the Charisma check).

Likewise, give the beast an out (at least, when you aren't paying them for their services). There's two ways the beast can complete it's contract.
One is to fill the role you wanted it to for a particular length of time - three days, say. The other is to tell you it wants to go home. Likewise, if they don't come to an agreement with you immediately (the critter beat your charisma check), that's fine too - send them home. Seriously. You're a Sorcerer. You can afford to send two or three home in the course of getting one that's willing to work with you.

Likewise, Sending can be a good investment (although it is Evocation; you can duplicate it with Greater Shadow Evocation later on) - that way it's more of a "we have an appointment at 2 o'clock" rather than "I'm ripping you from your home with no warning to bind you to my will and force you to be my slave for a few days".

If one of them dies in your service, go to the effort of getting them True Ressurected. Yes, spend the time to track down a Cleric-17, provide the 25k in diamonds, and pay the cleric whatever is asked to get your minion back among the realm of the living. With a reasonable DM, it is worthwhile.

You want to minimize the "AY KEEL YOUUUU!!!!" response after they're done, for the most part. You don't want to make enemies doing this.

Helgraf
2007-02-24, 04:32 PM
Have a look at your Summon Monster lists and find the monsters that work best. For example, Summon Monster 2 lets you summon a Lemure, which has damage reduction, fire immunity and some other bonuses or a Celestial Bison which has a good melee attack and other celesrial goodness. Summon Monster 3 lets you summon a Dretch which has more DR and more handy bonuses.
Check out this thread for summoning advice and a updated list of monsters that you can summon. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=216497)
Make sure to check what monsters were added from MM2 and Fiend Folio. They're on that thread. Some of them are pretty good.

Actually, the Celestial Bison is a SM III trick. It's my workhorse, and I often use SM IV to call up 1d3 of them to put a fleshy wall between the party and the enemy, or just to divert them long enough to get the wounded PCs out and patched - or, worst case, tie up the enemy long enough to retreat a long ways off.

Collin152
2007-02-24, 08:30 PM
Being kind to your summons? Hm... I want to set up an inter dimensional "Help Wanted" sign

Jack_Simth
2007-02-24, 08:48 PM
Being kind to your summons? Hm... I want to set up an inter dimensional "Help Wanted" sign
Those are the ones you Call, not Summon.

Something you Summon is (essentially) inherently safe - if killed in your service, it reforms 24 hours later back wherever it was you drew it from.

Something you Call isn't. It dies in your service, it dies. And Outsiders require extra effort to revive. It's explicitly called out in the Planar Binding line of spells that the critter can later seek revenge if it so chooses. If you Call up something that's powerful enough to be useful, it's also most likely powerful enough to be something of a threat. If you're doing this a lot, you've got a lot of critters that potentially want revenge, and can band against you.

If you go out of your way to arrange for them not to hate you, you'll live longer.

Collin152
2007-02-24, 09:04 PM
Call, summon, tomato, tomato.



Waaaiiit a second....

cupkeyk
2007-02-24, 09:47 PM
Called creatures do not wink out in an amf, summoned creatures do. when summoned creatures hit zero, they get unsummoned. Called creatures die normally. Yummy

HealthKit
2007-02-24, 11:24 PM
Thank you, I'm honored to be defended. I came up with a summoning sorceror because I knew the party was going to be composed of a druid, skillmonkey (that is apparently not useless against undead and constructs) and a warmage.

What, no Clerics in a undead heavy camp? :smallconfused:

Thrawn183
2007-02-25, 12:00 PM
What, no Clerics in a undead heavy camp? :smallconfused:

I play in a pretty extensive group of gamers (there is some movement in and out of who plays in who's campaign) and I took up the mantle of the divine caster when the old one left. Hence without me playing the cleric, which has been the trend of late, nobody else jumps at the opportunity. And the DM got rid of turning. (For emphasis). This is actually one (the many) of the reasons I'm going summoner: A whole lot of stuff that's going to be immune to mind affecting/ a lot of other stuff because the DM isn't a friend of divine casters.

HealthKit
2007-02-25, 02:35 PM
And the DM got rid of turning. (For emphasis).
Ouch. :smalleek:

But then I can understand a DM house ruling "No Clerics" in a largely undead focused campaign. Gives you a challange.

Collin152
2007-02-25, 08:23 PM
Even then, things with Turn Resistance aren't that hard to find. Ghosts get a ton of it, and they are rather flexible as far as CR's go. Why, what with their Rejuvenation and ability to gain class levels, they can haunt you for ages! (Pun not originally intended, then italicised for flavor)

Thrawn183
2007-02-25, 11:06 PM
Yeah, I definitely can't blame him for getting rid of turning in this campaign. It just brings up some issues about how the society survives. How do you stop hordes of low level undead? Turning. A world without turning is quite vulnerable to a few necromancers (of any type really) just having a little fun and seeing how many people(things, whatever) they can raise.

Ok, so its not the only way to fight undead, its just the best for fighting weak ones. Or is it!? :smallwink:

oriong
2007-02-25, 11:11 PM
That's not really true, it takes a minimum 5th level cleric to animate undead and they can only control 10 HD of undead, that's hardly an impressive force, while a cleric is certainly the easiest way to deal with these minions they're hardly vulnerable.

Collin152
2007-02-25, 11:17 PM
I thought holy water was the best way to fight weak ones?

Thrawn183
2007-02-26, 02:31 PM
I may have just really shot my mouth off :smallmad: woops.

marjan
2007-02-26, 04:42 PM
You have otion in PHII to trade familiar for faster metamagic (no increase in casting time) 3+Int modifier times per day.

Redwizard26
2007-02-27, 01:11 AM
You have otion in PHII to trade familiar for faster metamagic (no increase in casting time) 3+Int modifier times per day.
Though ... I think surrounding himself with creatures is part of the flavor he is looking for.

marjan
2007-02-27, 08:00 AM
Then he will just have to wait till lvl 9 and take Rapid Metamagic feat.