Breaking a Pact Certain (Fiendish Codex II question)

[atemu1234]

A player I have made a deal with a devil. This deal was over resurrection; the devil waylaid him on his way to the Seven Heavens, and made him an offer; he could return to the field, stand a chance of saving his friends, but at a terrible cost: He would, in ten year's time, have his soul taken. They agreed that until then he'd be free to act as he wished without fear of devils killing him, but now there is a problem. That was 9 1/2 years ago. Basically, now he's trying to stop the devil from taking his soul. Any tips on how I, as DM, should handle this?

[bekeleven]

I mean, it's called "Pact Certain." It should be pretty hard to break.

Most solutions to demonic pacts get around them using legal stuff. For instance, what would happen if the diabolical owner of his soul was in turn owned by him? Get controlling interest in your soul's owner - this may require taking over a portion of hell, but hey, hopefully he's high level by now.

If he wants to argue the devil out of it, he has to offer something the devil wants more - probably something that requires him to compromise his principles pretty hard. "Serve me for 10 years," "burn down an orphanage," "kill the king and bring me his head," etc. The devil would be throwing the long game (owning him for eternity) in exchange for the short, so make it a timely action (killing the king before he announces an anti-burning-orphanage law or something).

[Promises Kept]

To my knowledge, generally the only ways out of a Pact Certain are to render the Diabolical party unable to collect, convince them to rescind the contract, or to successfully argue in a Court (in Hell) that the Pact was invalid, which means the party was either coerced into making the bargain or the promised reward was never delivered.

The last one is unlikely to work, given the scenario you've laid out. The second is possible, especially if he can obtain some leverage over the Devil in question, but difficult.

The first is probably his best bet. A Pact Certain does not enable the Devil to kill him instantly or any of that nonsense - the ten years business doesn't make much difference, as he can't have his soul till he dies. Immortality will solve that in the short term, but it's more or less inevitable he'll die eventually. Having his soul trapped on death (ideally via Trap the Soul performed by a friendly caster) will prevent collection, but none of that changes his eternal destination.

Changing cosmologies will probably do that; if he takes the Plane of Shadow to Eberron, for instance, the rules are somewhat different, and he'll (probably) go to an appropriate afterlife there. Of course, there's no guarantee that it'll be any better there, but hey, it's an option.

Last resort, if he absolutely must prevent his soul going to Hell, is to either annihilate his soul (such as having it used to fuel a spell) or permanently make himself unreachable, in stasis, possibly by being the subject of a Flesh to Stone spell, being stuffed into a Bag of Holding, and having that stuffed into a Portable Hole - now he's forever lost, trapped in a state of suspended animation.

[Alaris]

I mean, it's called "Pact Certain." It should be pretty hard to break.

Most solutions to demonic pacts get around them using legal stuff. For instance, what would happen if the diabolical owner of his soul was in turn owned by him? Get controlling interest in your soul's owner - this may require taking over a portion of hell, but hey, hopefully he's high level by now.

If he wants to argue the devil out of it, he has to offer something the devil wants more - probably something that requires him to compromise his principles pretty hard. "Serve me for 10 years," "burn down an orphanage," "kill the king and bring me his head," etc. The devil would be throwing the long game (owning him for eternity) in exchange for the short, so make it a timely action (killing the king before he announces an anti-burning-orphanage law or something).

While I don't know anything about "Pact Certain," I presume it's a pact. And given that it was with a Devil, who are Lawful, then it is a lawful 'contract' of sorts.

I'd say the guy is more than likely screwed. His best bet in 'getting out of it,' would be to trying to find a loophole... or find a non-Lawful entity of greater powerful to protect him from the Devil attempting to carry out the pact. For instance, a Demon... or a Chaotic God.

If the character is lawful... eh... he's kinda screwed unless he wants to break his alignment.

At the end of the day... this gives you plot opportunities. You can make this into a whole new quest to find a way to break the pact. I love it when my players make a deal with a Devil... hell, one of mine recently made a deal with a Demon (of sorts), and now serves him loyally in exchange for power, and various other things.

That said... I think Bekelven has it right in a sense. The guy should simply confront the Devil... make an alternative offer. Serve the Devil for a time, in exchange for his soul. Or something else. I think that's the best bet if he wants to or has to go the legal route.

[Nettlekid]

You're the DM, right? Write out the terms of the contract and let the player rules lawyer his way out of it fair and square. For example, the terms of the contract are that in ten years the PC's soul will be TAKEN, right? I think that's the weak point of the deal.

-If he GIVES his soul at the 9 1/2 year mark, the soul can't be taken at the 10 year mark, rendering the devil's side of it impossible to achieve and thus rendering the contract void. He'd have to come back somehow, though...
-Similarly, die and get trapped in Thinaun Steel, and have teammates keep the soul from the devils for a few days. They didn't collect at the 10 year mark. Come back later. Play it like a really annoying package from UPS.
-Get someone in a higher position to claim the PC's soul. A Solar or something. Let them fight it out.

I would NOT suggest making more deals with the devil to get the soul back, because then you just condemn yourself further in doing evil things and it gets your soul anyway.

[Promises Kept]

You're the DM, right? Write out the terms of the contract and let the player rules lawyer his way out of it fair and square. For example, the terms of the contract are that in ten years the PC's soul will be TAKEN, right? I think that's the weak point of the deal.

-If he GIVES his soul at the 9 1/2 year mark, the soul can't be taken at the 10 year mark, rendering the devil's side of it impossible to achieve and thus rendering the contract void. He'd have to come back somehow, though...
-Similarly, die and get trapped in Thinaun Steel, and have teammates keep the soul from the devils for a few days. They didn't collect at the 10 year mark. Come back later. Play it like a really annoying package from UPS.
-Get someone in a higher position to claim the PC's soul. A Solar or something. Let them fight it out.

I would NOT suggest making more deals with the devil to get the soul back, because then you just condemn yourself further in doing evil things and it gets your soul anyway.

While I'm not sure if the terms of the deal are that easy to break (Devils are notorious for being major-league rules lawyers, and probably have anticipated such tactics and then some), there is a clear issue with getting Solars involved: almost all angels are bound to deities. All deities are bound by the Pact Primeval not to interfere with Asmodeus and co's soul-gathering. Higher powers have their hands tied when dealing with the Hells.

[Baroknik]

While I don't know anything about "Pact Certain," I presume it's a pact. And given that it was with a Devil, who are Lawful, then it is a lawful 'contract' of sorts.

I'd say the guy is more than likely screwed. His best bet in 'getting out of it,' would be to trying to find a loophole... or find a non-Lawful entity of greater powerful to protect him from the Devil attempting to carry out the pact. For instance, a Demon... or a Chaotic God.

If the character is lawful... eh... he's kinda screwed unless he wants to break his alignment.

At the end of the day... this gives you plot opportunities. You can make this into a whole new quest to find a way to break the pact. I love it when my players make a deal with a Devil... hell, one of mine recently made a deal with a Demon (of sorts), and now serves him loyally in exchange for power, and various other things.

That said... I think Bekelven has it right in a sense. The guy should simply confront the Devil... make an alternative offer. Serve the Devil for a time, in exchange for his soul. Or something else. I think that's the best bet if he wants to or has to go the legal route.

Lawful isn't necessarily screwed, since breaking the contract isn't an option period.

I would say see if you can make the devil owe you one -- find him in a position where he needs your help or he dies/gets demoted and offer him your help in exchange for voiding the contract.

Talk to some guardinals or eladrin about setting up that situation (archons probably wouldn't like the deception).

[molten_dragon]

A player I have made a deal with a devil. This deal was over resurrection; the devil waylaid him on his way to the Seven Heavens, and made him an offer; he could return to the field, stand a chance of saving his friends, but at a terrible cost: He would, in ten year's time, have his soul taken. They agreed that until then he'd be free to act as he wished without fear of devils killing him, but now there is a problem. That was 9 1/2 years ago. Basically, now he's trying to stop the devil from taking his soul. Any tips on how I, as DM, should handle this?

Well first off, do you want the player to get out of it? If not, just don't let him regardless of what he comes up with. If you do, just let whatever he comes up with work, even if it's weak. Personally, I'd let him out of it, but only if he comes up with a clever way to do it.

Or are you looking for suggestions to toss his way on how to get out of it?

One way would be to play on the "he'd be free to act as he wished without fear of devils killing him" clause. Get in a devil's way (one who doesn't know about the pact) and get killed by it. Then hell broke their side of the pact, and he's free and clear (after a resurrection of course).

Or become a lich. Then his soul is in a pretty bauble, which he can hide really, really well.

I'm not sure how these pacts work either. Does the magic itself fulfill the terms? As in, after 10 years, does his soul just automatically leave his body and wind up in the devil's possession? Or does the devil have to come collect it? Because if it has to come collect, just kill it (recruit help if needed).

Another option would be to make the devil a deal he can't refuse. Bring him to the material plane via a calling effect (planar binding, gate, etc.), then get him at your mercy somehow (but don't kill him), and offer him his life in return for freeing the player from the pact. Called creatures actually die when killed, so he'll have plenty of incentive.

[atemu1234]

Well first off, do you want the player to get out of it? If not, just don't let him regardless of what he comes up with. If you do, just let whatever he comes up with work, even if it's weak. Personally, I'd let him out of it, but only if he comes up with a clever way to do it.

Or are you looking for suggestions to toss his way on how to get out of it?

One way would be to play on the "he'd be free to act as he wished without fear of devils killing him" clause. Get in a devil's way (one who doesn't know about the pact) and get killed by it. Then hell broke their side of the pact, and he's free and clear (after a resurrection of course).

Or become a lich. Then his soul is in a pretty bauble, which he can hide really, really well.

I'm not sure how these pacts work either. Does the magic itself fulfill the terms? As in, after 10 years, does his soul just automatically leave his body and wind up in the devil's possession? Or does the devil have to come collect it? Because if it has to come collect, just kill it (recruit help if needed).

Another option would be to make the devil a deal he can't refuse. Bring him to the material plane via a calling effect (planar binding, gate, etc.), then get him at your mercy somehow (but don't kill him), and offer him his life in return for freeing the player from the pact. Called creatures actually die when killed, so he'll have plenty of incentive.

Time to clarify some finer points of the agreement: If he dies before the contract finishes, he is still sent to hell. If he isn't dead at the ten year mark, a powerful devil is sent to kill him. If he kills that devil, two are sent. Then four, then eight, so on, so fourth. The devil, however, cannot actively attempt to kill him until ten years are up unless the subject of the contract tries to kill him. That's what he has to work with.

[Erik Vale]

Unless he can find a way to prevent what ever infernal collection agency he's using, his best choice is to try and enter into another bargain to extend his life span.

Do note however, that the exchange could be something rather innocent, like standing up when required, saying his name in a loud clear tone, or simply asking him to go someplace, [see Vars]. Devils are [in theory] really good with the whole planning thing.

[molten_dragon]

Time to clarify some finer points of the agreement: If he dies before the contract finishes, he is still sent to hell. If he isn't dead at the ten year mark, a powerful devil is sent to kill him. If he kills that devil, two are sent. Then four, then eight, so on, so fourth. The devil, however, cannot actively attempt to kill him until ten years are up unless the subject of the contract tries to kill him. That's what he has to work with.

Okay, then in that case my second and fourth suggestions should still work, assuming he's capable of them (though he may consider turning himself into a lich to be worse than being damned to hell, but hey, it's an option). The first may also work depending on how exactly the part about hell not being able to kill him before 10 years is up is worded.

This also doesn't seem to exactly meet the rules of a pact certain, since that basically turns you lawful evil instantly and you start working for hell right away. So getting celestial help might be a possibility.

I can think of a few other ways out of it, but they get increasingly cheesy.

[Sith_Happens]

Time to clarify some finer points of the agreement: If he dies before the contract finishes, he is still sent to hell. If he isn't dead at the ten year mark, a powerful devil is sent to kill him. If he kills that devil, two are sent. Then four, then eight, so on, so fourth. The devil, however, cannot actively attempt to kill him until ten years are up unless the subject of the contract tries to kill him. That's what he has to work with.

That's easy then: There's only so far the devil can escalate its collection efforts before it's in the red either way. How far into the red it's willing to go will depend on an assortment of factors including but not limited to its temperament and how much face it stands to lose, but at some point it's going to have to throw in the towel and get its soul the slightly slower way (i.e.- waiting for natural causes to ensue).

Keeping from ever ending up in Hell is a whole other story.

[molten_dragon]

That's easy then: There's only so far the devil can escalate its collection efforts before it's in the red either way. How far into the red it's willing to go will depend on an assortment of factors including but not limited to its temperament and how much face it stands to lose, but at some point it's going to have to throw in the towel and get its soul the slightly slower way (i.e.- waiting for natural causes to ensue).

I'm sure hell would give up at some point, but I'm not sure it's a point that the PC in question could survive. Keep in mind that if this guy gets out of a fiendish pact just by killing a few devils sent to kill him, it make all of hell look weak, and a lot of people may try to escape from pacts of their own, leading to a drop in the number of souls that hell collects.

[snailgosh]

If he kills that devil, two are sent.
So what happens if he caught that devil, without killing it? like some flesh to stone, or temporal stasis?

[DeAnno]

If he isn't dead at the ten year mark, a powerful devil is sent to kill him.

How do the devils know where he is? This is what 24/7 Mind Blank is for (it won't drive you totally insane that's just an old wives' tale.)

[atemu1234]

How do the devils know where he is? This is what 24/7 Mind Blank is for (it won't drive you totally insane that's just an old wives' tale.)

Quite simply put, it's hell. Isn't there something in FCII about people who've sold their souls' souls being marked?

[Alaris]

So what happens if he caught that devil, without killing it? like some flesh to stone, or temporal stasis?

It's probably not a computer-logic-esque system. It's probably more in the sense of "If the first devil fails, send 2. If they fail, send 4."

I doubt it HAS to die.

[Renen]

So... DO you want him to get out of it?

[atemu1234]

So... DO you want him to get out of it?

This is an interesting question. The player is, without a doubt, one of my better roleplayers, and his character is one of the most developed ones. I probably want him to survive, but not without a high level of difficulty; maybe he should appeal to the devil's superiors? I could see him even dying but literally getting kidnapped from hell by his friends and resurrected; the glory of a plane shift spell.

[Rama]

I'd suggest an extension offer.

By this point (I assume) the PC is Somebody in the world. And while a soul is always nice, having Somebody further your plans on the material plane is worth delaying collection of that soul for a while. It doesn't even have to be something overtly evil; just a small cog in the devil's overall plans. And in six months or a year when the extension runs out, he can get another. Then another, and another, and another so long as he's willing to dance to the devil's tune.

[Alaris]

I'd suggest an extension offer.

By this point (I assume) the PC is Somebody in the world. And while a soul is always nice, having Somebody further your plans on the material plane is worth delaying collection of that soul for a while. It doesn't even have to be something overtly evil; just a small cog in the devil's overall plans. And in six months or a year when the extension runs out, he can get another. Then another, and another, and another so long as he's willing to dance to the devil's tune.

Ooh, I hadn't thought of the DEVIL offering an extension, at a cost. That is actually a pretty good idea. And if the player doesn't want to take it... well, a soul is still a good thing to get out of it for the Devil. ^_^

[Rama]

Ooh, I hadn't thought of the DEVIL offering an extension, at a cost. That is actually a pretty good idea. And if the player doesn't want to take it... well, a soul is still a good thing to get out of it for the Devil. ^_^

Exactly.

Or you could bring in another devil; play it as good-cop, bad-cop. The second devil offers to help the PC out of his jam with devil #1, who he really doesn't like anyway - honest. Just do devil #2 this one little favor, since every contract has to have consideration given on each side, and he'll wrangle an extra six months out of devil #1 for you.

[Twilightwyrm]

One potential, and often overlooked, option is to pledge your soul to a chaotic force, and get them to defend you. Sure, you aren't going to be convincing the angels of Heronious or St. Cuthbert to help you, but a number of chaotic good deities (Kord comes to mind) might be convinced of the illegitimacy of the pact, and be willing to intercede on your behalf. Last I checked Fiendish Codex II, an often overlooked aspect of the Pact Primeval is that is was signed by the deities of Law, not by the Chaotic Deities of the universe. Were I in his position, I would appeal to Kord, contesting that the devil in question made this offer with the indirect threat to my companions' lives were I to refuse ("you won't be able to help them otherwise"), and thus dishonorably coerced me into accepting this pact (not to mention, he violated the sanctity of heaven by stopping souls heading there to make his fiendish offers). I would pledge my allegiance to him, perhaps take up a quest on his behalf, and then ask him to intercede, contending that if the devil in question cannot prove the justness of his claim in a trial by combat (sure to please Kord), he should not be allowed to reap fruits from his dastardly bargain. Now, with luck, I get to settle this by killing the devil on one on one combat, thus resolving it both in that I have proved the justness of my claim in trial by combat, and I've killed the devil that wished to collect on my soul.

[atemu1234]

One potential, and often overlooked, option is to pledge your soul to a chaotic force, and get them to defend you. Sure, you aren't going to be convincing the angels of Heronious or St. Cuthbert to help you, but a number of chaotic good deities (Kord comes to mind) might be convinced of the illegitimacy of the pact, and be willing to intercede on your behalf. Last I checked Fiendish Codex II, an often overlooked aspect of the Pact Primeval is that is was signed by the deities of Law, not by the Chaotic Deities of the universe. Were I in his position, I would appeal to Kord, contesting that the devil in question made this offer with the indirect threat to my companions' lives were I to refuse ("you won't be able to help them otherwise"), and thus dishonorably coerced me into accepting this pact (not to mention, he violated the sanctity of heaven by stopping souls heading there to make his fiendish offers). I would pledge my allegiance to him, perhaps take up a quest on his behalf, and then ask him to intercede, contending that if the devil in question cannot prove the justness of his claim in a trial by combat (sure to please Kord), he should not be allowed to reap fruits from his dastardly bargain. Now, with luck, I get to settle this by killing the devil on one on one combat, thus resolving it both in that I have proved the justness of my claim in trial by combat, and I've killed the devil that wished to collect on my soul.

I could have sworn it was signed by all of the deities.

[Promises Kept]

Upon re-reading the Pact Primeval fluff and Pact Certain rules, there are serious irregularities with this situation. For one, it is true that the Pact Primeval was only signed by the ancient deities of Law, so a Chaotic Good deity might well be able to help. For another: As described, this is not a Pact Certain. In fact, it is not covered by the rules in FCII. To quote: "A Pact Certain contains language in which the mortal explicitly affirms allegiance to a Lord of Hell and promises to walk the paths of law and evil in exchange for whatever benefits are offered. Mortals signing such pacts immediately switch alignment to lawful evil, even if they have not previously taken any actions of either a lawful or an evil nature. The mere act of consciously assigning one's soul to a Lord of Hell is, by the terms of the Pact Primeval, an irredeemably and intrinsically lawful evil act." Also, "Mortals must sign in their own blood to render the Contract binding." This can't have been a proper Pact Certain - an interesting way to handle it would be that the devil is, in fact, bluffing about having a claim on the character's soul. The devil will still try to kill the character, but only to drive them to desperate measures. The hope is that the character will, in attempting to wriggle his way out of the "Pact," damn himself by other means.

[Twilightwyrm]

I could have sworn it was signed by all of the deities.

That always got me too, though to be fair there are irregularities with the Fiendish Codex II description beyond what is mentioned. St. Cuthbert's origin story comes to mind.