Requesting ideas for a 4E Human Fighter, lv 10, using a Mace.

[Odessa333]

A call to arms, my friends ;)

I've been asked to build a 4e, 10th level human fighter using a mace. Apparently the locals think I know how to do this because I know how to use google and ask questions on forums. Who knew? I don't really play 4E, so i'm a little out of my league here. I'm researching 4E now and have until Tuesday to make a build that deals the most damage possible.

I'm going to need redbull and advice, and I am all out redbull.

I need to go learn what I'm talking about, so any suggestions on where to start, or tips how to make this work would be appreciated. Thanks for your time!

[Epinephrine]

A call to arms, my friends ;)

I've been asked to build a 4e, 10th level human fighter using a mace. Apparently the locals think I know how to do this because I know how to use google and ask questions on forums. Who knew? I don't really play 4E, so i'm a little out of my league here. I'm researching 4E now and have until Tuesday to make a build that deals the most damage possible.

I'm going to need redbull and advice, and I am all out redbull.

I need to go learn what I'm talking about, so any suggestions on where to start, or tips how to make this work would be appreciated. Thanks for your time!

Ok, first off, fighters aren't strikers. They can do ok damage, but they aren't the best if you want to maximise damage.

Secondly, maces are generally a pretty crap weapon. +2 proficiency with all of them except the singing stick (+3, but only 1d6 damage, and a superior weapon), mediocre damage. Maces have one (maybe two) really good things going for them: Fighter dazes become nasty at paragon with Dizzying Mace (and Earthstrength Wardens can do ok with them).

Unfortunately, at 10th level you don't quite get paragon feats. Why must it be a mace? A flail is a similar weapon, and has better support. So do hammers. And if you want a build to "deal the most damage", are you stuck with fighters?

In 4e, the fighter is a defender. This means that he is pretty tough, and "marks" enemies; a mark means that the enemy is challenged by the fighter, and that the fighter can punish the enemy for not paying attention to the fighter. Swing at the fighter's allies? Bad decision, get punished. This allows the fighter to play an aggro attracting role. Fighters additionally have an opportunity attack that stops foes in their tracks, so it's very hard to get past the fighter to smack his buddies. But unless the fighter is regularly getting to trigger extra damage, he's not going to be the damage machine, especially not in heroic tier (level 1-10) using a mace.

A flail and 15 dex and you could have a triple attack as a fighter; that could be nice. I'll wait to see if you have any flexibility with weapons/classes before helping with a build. Were you picking fighter because you thought that would be a good class for maximum damage in melee, or have you been asked to play a fighter, in which case you are probably meant to be a sticky defender.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sounds like the perfect time for a re-fluff. Build a rogue (brutal scoundrel), and call it a fighter. Someone else will need to give you the details, but it will fit the maximised damage dealt and the sub-obtimal weapon choice - a rogue tends to ignore the size of the weapon, most of its damage coming from sneak attacks (indeed, its best weapon is the dagger).

Grey Wolf

[Odessa333]

Yea, I didn't think fighters were strikers in this edition, which is part of my confusion as well. The given requirements just don't seem to mess well, but that's what I was given to work with for this character.

A level 10 human fighter, using a mace, wishing to do a ton of damage.

The only other thing I have to go on is that this character will have to face a level 10 Barbarian in a one on one duel next Friday, and the barbarian uses a staff. I'm not sure why a staff, but at this point I'm not asking questions on her campaign.

[Kurald Galain]

How about a tempest fighter wielding two maces?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The only other thing I have to go on is that this character will have to face a level 10 Barbarian in a one on one duel next Friday, and the barbarian uses a staff. I'm not sure why a staff, but at this point I'm not asking questions on her campaign.

OK, that rules out the rogue, then. Rogues are good strikers, but require either flanking buddies, hiding or a controller that provides him with CA. They are not strikers in one-on-one duels. Ranger would work (and you would probably nova the barbarian, bringing him down in a single turn) or maybe the avenger, who is the one-on-one striker. But if it is going to be an arena PvP fight, go ranger.

Grey Wolf

[Epinephrine]

But if it is going to be an arena PvP fight, go ranger.

He's stuck with a fighter. He doesn't get a choice.

Ok, I am not in front of books, but I can tell you this isn't what Fighters are made to do. They mark, forcing someone to take penalties if they attack anyone else, and get punished for it. They lock people down so that they can't move away, but the barbarian won't need to. And you've been handed a pretty bad weapon group to use.

You have to face a striker, using a defender. If your defenses are high, you might last a bit longer. In Heroic, another option might be the Slayer (a fighter subclass), as the Slayer is essentially a very basic striking fighter, but it isn't a great class, and won't inflict status conditions like you may wish.
Otherwise I would hunt through the fighter powers to look for powers that can give you a surprisingly good edge 1v1; DR versus an opponent, etc. You can lock him down so he can't move away to charge again, so that might be a decent move; if you can hold him next to you, a stance like Rain of Steel will add some auto-damage. Repel Charge might be fun, you can almost bet a barbarian will close with a charge. Multiclassing for a power might be worth it.

[Inevitability]

Yea, I didn't think fighters were strikers in this edition, which is part of my confusion as well. The given requirements just don't seem to mess well, but that's what I was given to work with for this character.

A level 10 human fighter, using a mace, wishing to do a ton of damage.

The only other thing I have to go on is that this character will have to face a level 10 Barbarian in a one on one duel next Friday, and the barbarian uses a staff. I'm not sure why a staff, but at this point I'm not asking questions on her campaign.

PvP is highly unbalanced. It often boils down to rocket tag at the lower and higher levels. Level 10 may be a safe spot though; people are strong enough to take a few hits, but paragon crazyness hasn't yet appeared.

But as was said before; refluff. But don't refluff the class, refluff the weapon. Ask if you just can take a longsword or a greatsword or a fullblade or a whatever and call it a mace.

[Tegu8788]

It sounds like you aren't in a group playing regular PvP, and using some of these limitations.

Mace is tough luck, but fortunately the Fighter has some great powers. MC Ranger, and you can use a pair of full sized Maces in each hand. Tempest also boosts your initiative, which is important in rocket tag games like this. You'll want some way to stop a charge if you can, I'd wager a good hunk of the barbarian's gear would around charge boosting. If you can lock him so he can't move and charge again, that will nerf him. Look for some damage mitigation if you can.

[Yakk]

Proposal: Hybrid Tempest Fighter|Ranger dual-wielding Singing Sticks.

Armbands of Power (+2), +2 Maces, TWF, Weapon Focus(Mace), Tempest Technique

1d6 + 2+2+1+1+2 = 1d6+8 damage per swing on twin strike
+5 (level) +3 proficiency + 2(enhance) + 1 (expertise) +1 (tempest) + 5or6 (strength)=+17 to +18 to hit.

Elemental weapons with a dragonshard adds another +1 damage per hit. Jagged is another option, especially with MC avenger.

The fight is a one-off, so you'll want to carefully pick your dailies and the like. The [W] autodamage stance is a must-have. Interrupts that prevent hits on you are important (disruptive strike), as they will try to alpha strike you down while you alpha strike them (sadly, most of the (best?) fighter ones are shield-based).

As we are alpha-striking, sohai might be a good move (minor action [W] attack to keep up the punishment).

Grab dailies for utilities. One that let you burn healing surges off-turn in response to being damaged may make you really hard to drop.

Crit fishing with Avenger MC might be viable. You'll probably want a str/wis build to maximize fighter and ranger riders on a few powers.

Now, this build will probably be worse than a pure ranger, but you should be able to approximate ranger damage output.

[Inevitability]

Or you can be a ranger who goes fighter multiclass for Battle Awareness (hey, it is even pretty acceptable for your multiclass). All the ranger goodness, while you are still a fighter.

[Kimera757]

A call to arms, my friends ;)

I've been asked to build a 4e, 10th level human fighter using a mace. Apparently the locals think I know how to do this because I know how to use google and ask questions on forums. Who knew? I don't really play 4E, so i'm a little out of my league here. I'm researching 4E now and have until Tuesday to make a build that deals the most damage possible.

I'm going to need redbull and advice, and I am all out redbull.

I need to go learn what I'm talking about, so any suggestions on where to start, or tips how to make this work would be appreciated. Thanks for your time!

If you're looking to do damage, perhaps you should try the slayer. It's a build of the fighter, but an Essentials build, and it's a striker, not a defender. Downside: Far fewer options.

If you want to be a defender with the highest possible damage, play a dwarf. I'm not sure if dwarf racial feats apply to maces, but they do to hammers. Get a two-handed weapon and the heaviest armor you can get; with your high Con you can buy plate armor proficiency if you really want it. Downside: a hammer or mace is a +2 proficiency weapon, not +3.

Take the Bludgeon Expertise feat, or Master of Arms. Also take Crushing Mace: You gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with melee basic attacks that use a mace. Unfortunately maces just don't have the same kind of support that hammers and axes do.

[Epinephrine]

Assuming you must play pure fighter, let's see about dealing some damage to an adjacent target. If you are allowed to be a hybrid, to multiclass and poach powers, to use an off-hand mace and something else as your real weapon you may have other options, but let's just work with what you've said: Human, level 10, fighter, mace.

Daily 5, Rain of Steel, is a stance that deals auto damage to enemies beside you. Probably a decent idea, since you can wear an enemy down nicely that way.
One option for your level 9 daily is Pinning Smash (level 5 daily). Not a big hit, but it immobilises the enemy until you aren't beside him. That holds him in place, ensuring your auto damage. I think that's good to work with.

Here's a quick attempt, it's not got a lot of offensive power, but it will make it hard for him to hurt you (which is good) and you should be able to stand beside him dealing your damage as reliably as you can. It's not optimising damage so much as optimising ability to kill a barbarian or other melee guy 1v1. If you want damage you can tweak the feats a bit to eke out some bonuses, and pick more punishing powers, but the interrupts and off turn damage from the stance do add up.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Erik, level 10
Human, Fighter (Weaponmaster)
Fighter Option: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents Option: One-handed Weapon Talent
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)
Theme: Brazen Ambassador

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 22, CON 15, DEX 10, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 8

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 18, CON 13, DEX 10, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 8


AC: 30 Fort: 26 Ref: 20 Will: 19
HP: 91 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 22

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +14, Endurance +8, Intimidate +9, Streetwise +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +1, Arcana +5, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +6, Heal +6, History +5, Insight +6, Nature +6, Perception +6, Religion +5, Stealth +1, Thievery +1

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Brazen Ambassador Utility: Bound by Brass
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Fighter Attack 1: Reaping Strike
Fighter Attack 1: Shield Feint
Fighter Attack 1: Shield Riposte
Fighter Attack 1: Comeback Strike
Fighter Utility 2: Shielded Sides
Fighter Attack 3: Shield Edge Block
Fighter Attack 3: Immediate Vengeance
Fighter Attack 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter Attack 5: Pinning Smash
Fighter Utility 6: Battle Awareness
Brazen Ambassador Utility 10: Blazing Reprisal

FEATS
Level 1: Ironstar Student
Level 1: Bludgeon Expertise
Level 2: Vicious Advantage
Level 4: Disciple of Stone
Level 6: Tainted Wounds
Level 8: Armor Proficiency: Plate
Level 10: Frantic Recovery

ITEMS
Magic Plate Armor +3 x1
Heavy Shield x1
Quick Mace +2 x1
Amulet of Life +2 x1
Starlight Goggles x1
Bottled Twilight (buy a couple if you want)

Bottled Twilight makes a zone of dim light; starlight goggles let you have low-light vision; this is a -2 for your enemy that you don't suffer, assuming he lacks low-light vision.
Quick Mace is only for a one-time MBA, but it's extra damage, or another chance to get a hit on him.
+3 plate with a heavy shield is a solid 30 AC
Amulet of life gets you another healing surge.

Tainted Wounds is a solid feat - it prevents your enemy from regaining hit points if you hit him with a melee attack. Just keep connecting, and he can't get his second wind or other heals off. Frantic Recovery makes your second wind at least useful; with a level 1 daily to get a surge and a second wind you can actually use, you may outlast him.

Your main attack is Reaping Strike. It's not great, but with the Ironstar Student feat it grants the enemy a -2 penalty to attack rolls. Assuming he is built for accuracy (with his staff...). I can't see him having more than a +17 to hit given his +2 proficiency weapon, so you can keep him hitting you only on a 15+ when you connect. If he's taken a weapon with an effect (i.e., a +2 weapon) he'll only hit on a 16+. 18+ if the dim light trick worked.

Other than the daily stance to up your damage, you are picking powers that prevent him from hitting or attacking with much power. Pinning Smash means that he simply can't get away unless he can push you or slide you. Bound by Brass outright prevents him targeting you with melee or ranged attacks for a turn, at the cost of a minor action. Shielded Sides bumps your AC to 32, making it virtually impossible to hit you for a turn.
Blazing Reprisal makes him reroll of he does hit (might be best saved for a crit) and takes the worst result.
Shield Edge Block hands out a -4 penalty on an attack roll if he hits, and smacks him for the attempt.
If he hits again, Immediate Vengeance not only hits him first, but halves the damage he'd deal.
Lastly, Shield Riposte is a reaction for when he has missed you, you get to rub a little salt in the wound.

Basically, it's an attrition game. As long as you keep hitting, he can't heal. You have more heals, and very solid AC, with a debuffing attack, and several interrupts to foil his attempts to spike you down. Just keep standing beside him and hitting with Reaping Strike, letting your Rain of Steel add another attack worth of damage. He's likely to miss you a lot, while if he's got the same restriction (level 10, human) and has a strong offense, he'll suffer from weak defenses, and you can hand him his butt repeatedly; you have CA against immobilized targets, and unless he can force you to move, you can keep him immobilised all fight. You could even pick a power like Hold Your Ground, if you are worried about the pushes, or if you are permitted alternative rewards, Moradin's Blessing of Iron is level 3 and would do it.
====== End ======

[Odessa333]

Success! So I talked to Sarah, and pitched some ideas at her. She rejected dropping the mace and the ranger stuff right away so I thought I was in trouble... but she LOVED the concept you had Epinephrine. She's changing very little from it (she didn't like the Brazen ambassador as it conflicted with her story concept). I'm looking into any powers/feats to prevent her from being pushed against her will now, though so far the ones I've seen she would need to be a dwarf to use and she's human. You mentioned Stand your ground and Moradin's Blessing of Iron, but I can't find a listing for the latter and the first is only for dwarves as far I can tell. Am I missing something?

Anything else to prevent being pushed? I thought there was something like Sure Step for that, but I'm not seeing that either. Goggle is really letting me down when it comes to 4E material.

Again I say, thanks to all for the help and ideas. Even though she didn't go ranger, I think she felt better knowing her options. And I felt better being albe to suggest them! I was quite unexpectedly swamped this weekend and didn't get to do as much research as I would have liked, so this really saved my bacon. You people are the reason this is my favorite forum to talk gaming. Thanks a ton!

[Tegu8788]

The compendium does a great job for helping you find stuff, even without a subscription you get the location. Multiple sources almost always means PHB or a Heroes book.

[Yakk]

world serpant's grasp is probably over investing, but it means pinning smash can lead to chain knock down. This both costs the attacker their move action, **and** works great with interrupts.

Probably over invested.

[dariathalon]

There are a lot of items out there that can help you to avoid pushes. Dwarven Greaves, Mountain Armor, and Stonewall Belt are a few examples of items that can negate or reduce forced movement effects. I'm sure there are a handful of feats and the like too, but the items came quickly to mind.

[Kurald Galain]

world serpant's grasp is probably over investing, but it means pinning smash can lead to chain knock down. This both costs the attacker their move action, **and** works great with interrupts.

It's not overinvesting if your party members also have slowing attacks, e.g. if the party wizard opens with a slowing burst.

[Odessa333]

The compendium, eh? I wish I had thought of that sooner lol.

I did find Mountain armor, though I didn't find Dwarven Greaves or the Stonewall Belt which are awesome additions. I'm meeting with her later today to finish off creating this character, and these will be a big help. My thanks again to all here.


EDIT: Just noticed... I was looking into world serpent's grasp and all, and was thinking how prone works in 4E. And... it seems really nerfed. It takes a move action to stand up, and you don't provoke an attack. So if a melee build trips an opponent, he just stands up as move action, and continues fighting as normal. it seems a minor annoyance at best now. Wonder why they changed that?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

EDIT: Just noticed... I was looking into world serpent's grasp and all, and was thinking how prone works in 4E. And... it seems really nerfed. It takes a move action to stand up, and you don't provoke an attack. So if a melee build trips an opponent, he just stands up as move action, and continues fighting as normal. it seems a minor annoyance at best now. Wonder why they changed that?

Because an attacker, by an large, wants to be anywhere but next to the defender. The defender can take punches, is hard to hit and their core objective is to stop the enemy from moving. Prone does all that. Prone is sometimes described as "the poor man's daze". Do not underestimate prone when in the hands of a defender, and even less when in the hands of a controller with a range of 5+.

Grey Wolf

[Yakk]

It's not overinvesting if your party members also have slowing attacks, e.g. if the party wizard opens with a slowing burst.
Yes, but this is a duel build.

They changed it because prone cheese was over strong in 3e.

Now, it is easier to knock prone, but it doesn't do as much harm. The target grants CA until they stand up against melee attacks, and it eats on of their move actions. Both of which are pretty good.

If they don't stand up, they suffer a -2 penalty to their attacks, which is also nice.

In this case, you have an interrupt that triggers when attacked. If they are immobalized/slowed, world serpent will knock them prone, placing an additional -2 penalty on the to-hit of the triggering attack (on top of the -4 from the power), making shield edge block cause a -6 penalty. Rather nice.

And if you knocked them prone *last* turn, they probably stood up then attacked you. You knock them prone again, and now they are stuck prone for your turn's attacks.

Finally, prone screws up teleporters somewhat -- even if they can teleport as a move action, they end up prone at the end of the teleport. (There are some tricks involving falling that can get around this -- ring of feather falling means "you always land on your feet")

For a duel without a reliable source of "slow until the end of your next turn", or a way to exploit the prone via multi-tap, probably an over-investment. For a party, knocking foes prone on every attack rocks. It acts as a pseudo-immobalize/pseudo-daze.

Ranged takes a -2 to hit (unless they have a feat), but are also protected against the guy charging them. Melee get CA, and if they shift 1 away end up out of the foes attack range (as the foe has to stand, then cannot charge 1 square) if they need safety.

[Odessa333]

An update, for those curios: my sister's game was last night, and her Mace fighter kicked the babarian's butt. I wasn't there, but I was told his build was based on hit and run, or 'charge and chug' (a potion). The pinning smash held him fast, tainted wounds removed his healing, and rain of steel and reaping strike whittled him down to nothing in 5 rounds. His build was so effectively shut down that her fighter only took ten points of damage and was never in danger. She was quite happy how effective the build was, and I wanted to pass on her success.

[Epinephrine]

An update, for those curios: my sister's game was last night, and her Mace fighter kicked the babarian's butt. I wasn't there, but I was told his build was based on hit and run, or 'charge and chug' (a potion). The pinning smash held him fast, tainted wounds removed his healing, and rain of steel and reaping strike whittled him down to nothing in 5 rounds. His build was so effectively shut down that her fighter only took ten points of damage and was never in danger. She was quite happy how effective the build was, and I wanted to pass on her success.

Very glad to hear it, though I feel bad for the poor barbarian :smallbiggrin:

[Tegu8788]

4e isn't good for balanced PvP, and the fighter isn't the best class, but it's got plenty of goodies, especially against a charger. Good to hear things went well. Come back for any other questions.

[GPuzzle]

The best character for 4e PvP is a Half-Elf Bard/Polearm Master using a Spiked Chain and with Righteous Brand+Adept Dilletante+Power of Skill.

Use that ring that increases your reach by your Charisma modifier if your attack gives your allies a bonus to hit, use a Staggering Weapon, take Lashing Flail, Blade Opportunist and Deft Blade, use a Cloak of Distortion, boost your initiative, and you're good to go. Perhaps a Tiefling Ardent/Polearm Master with a Glaive could work.

The trick is simple - get your reach to at least 5, and you give the enemy the catch-22 of "stand near me and you will be slidden away from me, no matter what do you do, stand away from me and you won't hit me because you have a -5 penalty to hit". You can even slap an Enshrounding Candle to turn it into a -7 penalty to hit.

It's nasty.

[unwise]

Has anybody mentioned the fact that a Fighter(Slayer) is a Striker? You could just build one of those as normal, duel-wield maces if you like, though you are likely better off with a shield. The damage will be less than an great weapon, thoguh it will still be fine. Most of their damage comes from static bonuses. You really can't go wrong, no tricks or cheese needed.

If I remember correctly, the one redeeming feature of mace usage is the Weapon Master's Strike At-Will. I seem to remember it lets you slide your opponent. If you can find items and skills that incease that you are golden.

[Tegu8788]

Considering the fight was against a chargebarian, giving them a free escape from an OA and set up for a charge is not so wise.