What are good SAD gestalts for each ability (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha)?

[cosmonuts]

I'm planning on building 6 characters (for fun and practice), each representing the pinnacle of one ability: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.

Slightly different rules for this gestalt: Only one side of the gestalt can take PrCs or multiclass. The other is locked into the base class for all 20 levels.

The base scores are 22, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10.

[Snowbluff]

Wizard would probably be Wizard//Warblade or Wizard//Factotum.

[cosmonuts]

Wizard would probably be Wizard//Warblade or Wizard//Factotum.

I think Wizard/IotSV/Archmage//Factotum would be best here. Cunning Surge and Cunning Breach + No Save Spells is absolutely insane. Plus all that defenses. Look at dem.

[With a box]

The wiz one would me some kind of literal codzilla
Cha one.. sorcerer//something?

[Jeff the Green]

The wiz one would me some kind of literal codzilla
Cha one.. sorcerer//something?

For Wisdom I'd say Druid//Bunch o' dips. Things like monk, swordsage, Shiba protector, etc.

Edit:
Constitution would be Dragonfire Adept//Incarnate. No need to multiclass on either side, really.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Strengh-I'd probably make something like a Bararian or Fighter//Monster HD/Template/Warhulk.

Dex- This seems like a real problem stat. Most of the classes I associate with high Dex will have a lot of overlap in abilities and feel like they wasted one side of the gestalt. Maybe something like Tleilaxu_Ghola's Feral Dreadlord Dex SAD build with straight Rogue on one side with non-thug non-SA Zhent Fighter replacing the Rogue and Thug levels in the normal build.

Con- Pathfinder Orc Witchdoctor//Child of Stone/Crusader/DeepWarden/Deepstone Sentinel

Int-Wizard or Archivist//Factotum or Warblade or honestly any 2 of thise classes.

Wis- Druid//Monk+++

Cha- Lord of the Dance with any one class taken out to make up the pure side and replaced with more of a class it already has. Basically just increasing the hp, BAB and skillpoints of the base build. Or Lord of the Dance//Sorceror.

[Coventry]

For a pure strength build: Centaur (4HD +2 LA), Barbarian 14//Crusader 1/War Hulk 2/Crusader 1/War Hulk 8/Crusader 2.

+8 STR from the race, +20 STR from War Hulk.

Double carrying capacity due to being a quadruped.

BAB of +18 without LA buyoff. Buyoff gives you another level on both sides.

Lion Totem variant

Feats: Power Attack, Leap, Brutal Throw, Shock Trooper

Skills: Jump

Basically, a charger build ... with some low-to-mid Stone Dragon Maneuvers to turn DR into tissue paper.

Martial Spirit for that level 1 stance you are stuck with - it's not much, but it can be the same as fast heal 8 or even 10 with the occasional cleave. The delay on picking up the second level of crusader allows your second stance to be at initiator level 5, so you can get a third level stance.

[Erik Vale]

No Stat: Warlock/Dragon Fire Adept
Int: Psion/Wizard

[kenjigoku]

...
Dex- This seems like a real problem stat. Most of the classes I associate with high Dex will have a lot of overlap in abilities and feel like they wasted one side of the gestalt. Maybe something like Tleilaxu_Ghola's Feral Dreadlord Dex SAD build with straight Rogue on one side with non-thug non-SA Zhent Fighter replacing the Rogue and Thug levels in the normal build.
...

Rogue//Ranger

Is at least competent for DEX without crazy overlap.
Rogue nets you
-Sneak Attack
-Trap Finding
-Uncanny Dodge
-Trap Sense
-Rogue Abilities
-Supreme number of skills

Ranger
-Track & Swift Tracker
-Favored Enemy
-Full BAB
-D8 Hit Die
-Free TWF
-Endurance
-Woodland Stride
-Hide in Plain Sight
-Fort Save
-Expanded Skill List to almost everything

Redundant
-Evasion
-Reflex Save

Not SAD
-Spellcasting

Weakpoints
-Will save (rogue ability can help vs Enchantment)
-Low HD melee range [Can be offset with ranged sneak attack build but RSA are a bit wonky]

Of course prestige class to flavor, but I feel that even core this is a solid build even if a bit under-powered for gestalt.

[Emperor Tippy]

Int is Psion//Factotum with some dipping on the Factotum side.

Wis is probably Ardent//Swordsage.

For the rest I would have to think about an answer.

[TypoNinja]

For a pure strength build: Centaur (4HD +2 LA), Barbarian 14//Crusader 1/War Hulk 2/Crusader 1/War Hulk 8/Crusader 2.

+8 STR from the race, +20 STR from War Hulk.

Double carrying capacity due to being a quadruped.

BAB of +18 without LA buyoff. Buyoff gives you another level on both sides.

Lion Totem variant

Feats: Power Attack, Leap, Brutal Throw, Shock Trooper

Skills: Jump

Basically, a charger build ... with some low-to-mid Stone Dragon Maneuvers to turn DR into tissue paper.

Martial Spirit for that level 1 stance you are stuck with - it's not much, but it can be the same as fast heal 8 or even 10 with the occasional cleave. The delay on picking up the second level of crusader allows your second stance to be at initiator level 5, so you can get a third level stance.

I'm a pretty big fan of a were-tiger for a beatstick RHD. The stat boosts are quite nice, you end up with Pounce, Improved Grab, Large size, and DR/silver. Makes a really good grappler, not much carries silver and you go right into War Shaper when you are done with the RHD. Feats for Power Attack/ShockTrooper, and multiattack and you have sky high damage.

I'm actually playing this in a game, plan on following it up with scout (to swift hunter) if the game lasts that long, since pounce lets me easily qualify for skirmish and full attack. Its a little scary how hard he hits.

May be more RHD than you want to invest though.

[Sian]

Con would probably be something Dwarven with something Incarnum (Totemist prehaps?) on one side, and a Diamond mind focused Warblade with Deepwarden and Deepstone Sentinel on the other

[Ratatoskir]

Constitution: Dragonborn Dwarf Dragonfire Adept//Strongarm Ranger 3/City Brawler Barbarian 2/Deep Warden 2/Fist of the Forest 1/Bear Warrior 10/Barbarian 2? Throw in Steadfast determination and you have Con to AC twice, Con to Will saves, Can for rage durations, Con to both breath DCs.

[ben-zayb]

STR
For a pure strength build: Centaur (4HD +2 LA), Barbarian 14//Crusader 1/War Hulk 2/Crusader 1/War Hulk 8/Crusader 2.

+8 STR from the race, +20 STR from War Hulk.Epitome of Strength? Nah! That definitely goes to a Hulking Hurler. Either:
1. Phrenic Aeshkrau-Illumian Warblade X / Archmage Y / Hulking Hurler 2 // Wu-Jen 20. No need to be a stupid War Hulk. Shapechange to a very high-strength form, use Giant Size (SLA?) for a +32 size bonus to Strength, Body Outside Body if you like, buff self to high heavens, and then go to town.

2. Or... go old school with some Half-Minotaur Feral Lolth-Touched Tauric:something Were:something Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale / Hulking Hurler 2 (one class on this side) || Barbarian 5 / War Hulk 10 / Warblade 1 / Bloodstorm Blade 4

DEX
Phrenic Uurkrau-Illumian Wizard or Cleric 20 // Hit-and-Run Fighter 1 / Swordsage X / Whatever Y with Shadow Blade feat, Feycraft Aptitude Sword of Graceful Strikes or free-reload Aptitude Xbow with Lightning Mace and Xbow Sniper feats, and Xbow optimization. Shapechange/Polymorph into a high-dex form, buff self to high heavens, and go to town.

CON
Phrenic Dwarf Chaos Monk 1 / Warblade X / whatever Y / Deepwarden 2 / Fist of the Forest 1 // Dwarf Sorcerer 18, getting Diamond Mind maneuvers mostly. Shapechange/Polymorph into high-Con forms, buff self to high heavens, and go to town

INT
Wizard 20 // Factotum 11 / Swashbuckler 3 / Decisive Strike Monk 1 with Carmendine Monk / whatever X. You're a T1 already anyway. You know the drill.

WIS
Saint Lesser Aasimar Monk 1 / Ardent or Psywarrior X / Shiba Protector 1 / whatever Y // Cloistered Cleric 20. You're a T1 already anyway. You know the drill.

CHA
Evolved Lich Dread Necromancer 20 // Paladin 3 / Marshal 1 / Monk 1 with Ascetic Mage / Prestige Bard 1 with Snowflake Wardance feat / Rainbow Servant 10 / Whatever X. You're practically a T1 already anyway. You know the drill.

[cosmonuts]

What's with people suggesting psion//factotum over wizard//factotum? With all the wizard's PrC options, compared to the psion's, it's pretty clear to me that the wizard is a better choice.

[137beth]

What's with people suggesting psion//factotum over wizard//factotum? With all the wizard's PrC options, compared to the psion's, it's pretty clear to me that the wizard is a better choice.

Psion is a bit better at breaking the action economy. For a gestalt, actions are an even bigger deal than normal, since you have twice as many class features and only one set of actions.

[weckar]

Sorcerer//Marshal for CHA?

[137beth]

For Dex, Swordsage seems like a natural choice for one side of the gestalt, possibly with a dip into warblade to get IH some IH stuff. I'm not sure what the other side would be...gestalting two martial adepts seems like it creates a lot of redundancy.

[Emperor Tippy]

What's with people suggesting psion//factotum over wizard//factotum? With all the wizard's PrC options, compared to the psion's, it's pretty clear to me that the wizard is a better choice.

Because Psion is better than virtually any Wizard+PrC combination. At least once you are picking up all arcane and divine spells as powers known and pick up Midnight Augmentation so that you get unlimited PP recharge.

Pretty much anything Wizards do, Psions can do better if you play them right.

[sideswipe]

Because Psion is better than virtually any Wizard+PrC combination. At least once you are picking up all arcane and divine spells as powers known and pick up Midnight Augmentation so that you get unlimited PP recharge.

Pretty much anything Wizards do, Psions can do better if you play them right.

tippy has spoken

[137beth]

Sorcerer//Marshal for CHA?

What good does Marshal give you:smallconfused:?

[PaucaTerrorem]

....

For the rest I would have to think about an answer.

Dear god help us all.

[Diovid]

What good does Marshal give you:smallconfused:?
Marshal is great actually. Few other classes give all their benefits in one level.

[Coventry]

STREpitome of Strength? Nah! That definitely goes to a Hulking Hurler. Either:
1. Phrenic Aeshkrau-Illumian Warblade X / Archmage Y / Hulking Hurler 2 // Wu-Jen 20.

It just seems wrong to have to invest the 22 stat from the OP's list into INT for a character that is supposed to be the "epitome STR" build.


What good does Marshal give you:smallconfused:?

A one-level dip into Marshal gives the Minor aura "Motivate (stat)", which boosts the (stat)-based checks for all allies of the Marshal.

I wish I had thought of it, last night, as I definitely would have included a single level dip into Marshal for the Centaur. He's so strong that all of his allies become just as strong.

(Motivate Dexterity boosts the initiative of your allies as an extra bonus. It's the strongest of the six variants)

[Kazudo]

For Epitome STR and CHA, repeatedly layer the Dustform Creature/Incarnate Construct templates over and over and over and over and over onto an Anthro Baleen Whale.

[Person_Man]

Totemist//Dragonfire Adept can be Con SAD, assuming that you only use Invocations without a Saving Throw (which are Cha based), and don't make attack rolls (which aren't required for blasty soulmelds or the DFA's breath weapon). It's also a very potent and fun Tier 3 option, especially if you can swing decent Str or Dex for attack rolls.

Druid or Wildshape Ranger can dramatically help out anything that requires Str or Dex dependency.

It's also very easy to make lots of builds Wis or Cha SAD. Check out the X to Y thread.

[cosmonuts]

At least once you are picking up all arcane and divine spells as powers known and pick up Midnight Augmentation so that you get unlimited PP recharge.

I know the Midnight Augmentation trick, but I don't see how the Psion class is getting arcane and divine spells. I know the StP Erudite can do it, but does the Psion have a trick allowing it to do something similar?

[Emperor Tippy]

I know the Midnight Augmentation trick, but I don't see how the Psion class is getting arcane and divine spells. I know the StP Erudite can do it, but does the Psion have a trick allowing it to do something similar?

Psychic Chiguery lets you get them from the spell to power erudite.

[Soranar]

per stat

STR : I'd second the hulking hurler/war hulk// racial HD /barbarian

DEX : that's a tough one... it would require a lot of multiclassing to get the best of it

CON : a lot like the hulking hurler build dragonfire adept on one side // CON maximization on the other (probably a dragonborn of bahamut mongrelfolk that takes stoneblesse 3 (dwarf)/dwarven paragon 3/barbarian 1/deepwarden 2... first of the forest 3, etc)

INT : hard to beat spell to power erudite 20// factotum 20

WIS : humm I'd argue a cloistered cleric 20 // Ardent 20 would be more versatile than a druid//swordsage. The cleric chassis is already really good, Ardent just gives you options you wouldn't have normally (like action economy)

CHA : Definitely a sorcerer based side (with proper prestige classes like incantatrix)//maybe paired with a bard/sublime chord side (fixes your low spell knowns and turns you into a tier 1 caster with a ton of spellslots) or even a dread necromancer side (same reasons but different options)

[ben-zayb]

It just seems wrong to have to invest the 22 stat from the OP's list into INT for a character that is supposed to be the "epitome STR" build.Of course it is! That's why you put it that 22 in strength, and let the Phrenic template give you the INT bonus (and Middle Age, if really needed) while you wait enough levels for a magic item.

[137beth]

Marshal is great actually. Few other classes give all their benefits in one level.
Commoner gives all its benefits before first level!

[Jeff the Green]

Of course it is! That's why you put it that 22 in strength, and let the Phrenic template give you the INT bonus (and Middle Age, if really needed) while you wait enough levels for a magic item.

Just because you don't need to invest in Intelligence (which you're doing anyway, by being middle aged and buying +Intelligence items) doesn't mean you're not dependent on it. A Strength/Dexterity/Constitution SAD build should be able to go through life with a constant feeblemind effect. The same problem arises with the Dwarf sorcerer.

[ben-zayb]

Just because you don't need to invest in Intelligence (which you're doing anyway, by being middle aged and buying +Intelligence items) doesn't mean you're not dependent on it. A Strength/Dexterity/Constitution SAD build should be able to go through life with a constant feeblemind effect. The same problem arises with the Dwarf sorcerer.What I corrected was "investing the 22 stat", not investing in Int in general. I get the point on them not actually being SAD (because the physical ones are DAD), though. I just find it funny that you don't need to be restricted to being SAD in an ability score in order be the pinnacle of its usage.