Shadow-Sun-Ninja and ToB questions

[justiceforall]

Hi Playground,

So I'm slowly learning how ToB works, and the Shadow Sun Ninja prestige class really jumped out at me as a super-interesting (fluff-wise if nothing else) character concept.

My first question (there will be a few, but lets start with the basics), the pre-reqs:

"Martial Maneuvers: Must know one 2nd-level Setting Sun or Shadow Hand maneuver, one Setting Sun maneuver of any level, and one Shadow Hand maneuver of any level."

Does this mean a character needs three distinct maneuvers, or only two? It reads to me that so long as one of your two maneuvers from Setting Sun or Shadow Hand is 2nd level, you satisfy the pre-req?

[Firechanter]

It reads to me that so long as one of your two maneuvers from Setting Sun or Shadow Hand is 2nd level, you satisfy the pre-req?

What? No, you clearly need three maneuvers total.
If they meant it the way you think, they'd have just written "One SH maneuver and one SS maneuver, one of which must be 2nd level."

[justiceforall]

If they meant it the way you think, they'd have just written

Sure but they often don't write anything close to what they meant. Is the interpretation abbove RAW, RAI, or both?

[HammeredWharf]

RAW, it's definitely only two meneuvers. RAI, who knows. As a DM I'd only require two, because shadow sun ninja isn't a powerful PRC.

[weckar]

that's debatable. A Necropolitan Shadow Sun can wreak some pretty serious havoc.

[Firechanter]

RAW, it's definitely only two meneuvers.

I disagree here. Grammatically, we are looking at enumeration commas here, i.e. each comma is sementically an "AND". Personally I wouldn't even have gotten the _idea_ that the requirement line could be interpreted as "2 maneuvers suffice".


shadow sun ninja isn't a powerful PRC.

That's a different story. SSN isn't going to break your game one way or another. Only difference is that the 2-maneuver interpretation makes the class more accessible to non-Swordsages. Anyone with even a single level of Swordsage will easily fill the sctricter requirements anyway.

[HammeredWharf]

I disagree here. Grammatically, we are looking at enumeration commas here, i.e. each comma is sementically an "AND".

Yes, that's why two is enough. Here's what the sentence says logically:

("knows one 2nd-level Setting Sun maneuver" ∨ "knows one 2nd-level Shadow Hand maneuver")∧"knows one Setting Sun maneuver"∧"knows one Shadow Hand maneuver" = "can be a SSN"

If a character knows one 2nd-level Setting Sun maneuver and one Shadow Hand maneuver, all of the statements above are true individually. So, we get

1∧1∧1=1

Therefore, the abovementioned character can enter SSN. If the description required knowing another SS maneuver and another SH maneuver, you'd have to know three maneuvers in total to enter.

[LordHenry]

For me, both RAW and RAI mean that he needs to know 3 maneuvers, one of them being lvl 2

[Firechanter]

Yes, that's why two is enough. Here's what the sentence says logically:

Logic notation is not necessary equal to semantic usage.
When you buy two items for $5 each, you can't pay with the same $5 bill twice, either.

[HammeredWharf]

Logic notation is not necessary equal to semantic usage.
When you buy two items for $5 each, you can't pay with the same $5 bill twice, either.

There is a real world context to buying things, which is why you can add the "the total price is the sum of the prices of all bought items" condition even if it wasn't specified explicitly. There is no context here, only a line in a book that may mean one thing or another. Because we don't know the intention, using formal logics is better than using an assumption.

[Adverb]

justiceforall,

I'm honestly not sure which it is, but since Shadow Hand is more-or-less the best school, and Setting Sun has at least some super incredibly good maneuvers, I can't imagine a character that I'd build where the difference would matter.

What are your other questions?

[Particle_Man]

I say three, RAW. Must know a + b + c is not the same as must know a + a + b or must know a + b + b. The way it is written, the commas call for three different things, as in a list.

[justiceforall]

Ok I might move that first question to the raw thread since the wording seems fairly contentious.

Lets assume I build my SSN with no levels of swordsage (ie: I take 2 or 3 martial study feats). Also please assume for these questions I don't care about optimisation, strictly just RAW.

How does the shadow hand and setting sun maneuvers interact with say, the warblades refresh mechanic? Does each initiators refresh mechanics refresh all maneuvers known, which those acquired by martial study become?

So now assume I build my character with no levels of the base classes from ToB and just use martial study to qualify. How does that interact with the SSN learning new maneuvers from the class itself, and gaining greater than zero maneuvers readied?

[Particle_Man]

It depends partially one when you take the martial study feats. If you take them at the same time as, or after, you have taken at least one Warblade level, then they are simply added to your list of Warblade Maneuvers Known, and are readied (and refreshed) just like other Warblade Maneuvers Known are readied (and refreshed). Mind you, at higher levels, they cannot be traded out so you will have some permanent low level maneuvers in your Warblade maneuvers known, which may mean, at high levels, that they will rarely or never be readied.

If you are so unfortunate as to take martial study before taking any levels in Warblade, Crusader or Swordsage, then taking those classes later will not help you refresh the maneuvers gained through those earlier martial study feats. That would be unfortunate. Basically the martial study manuevers would be "use once each in combat" and the SSN maneuvers would all effectively be "use once each in combat out of those readied (a subset of those known from SSN)" and could only refresh after 5 minutes of mediation (almost certainly out of combat). Stances would be ok though as usual you can only have one on at a time.

Also, I think you would have to be at least 3rd level character level to take a 1st level maneuver and at least 6th charanter level to take a 2nd level maneuver, since your non-tob classes only count as half their level for the purpose of using maneuvers. So a 1st level character that is a monk, say, cannot take the martial study feat yet, since half of 1st character level, rounded down, is 0.

[justiceforall]

Of interest, it appears that the judges in Iron Chef for Shadow Sun Ninja were fine with just two martial study feats to qualify. I haven't exhaustively checked the thread, but four of the entries I've read qualified without elegance penalty.

[justiceforall]

Anyway - got sidetracked.

So assuming the character has levels of Warblade - would the maneuvers learned from SSN also add to the Warblade's known maneuvers? (I'm almost certain its yes, I just want verification)

Actually another clarification question - can you prepare the same maneuvers in multiple maneuver slots? Could I get 3x mighty throw for instance?


So then on the no-warblade levels:

How do the maneuvers/etc from the SSN function if the character doesn't already have any ToB base classes? For example, as a 3rd level SSN the character would know 2 maneuvers, but have 0 maneuvers readied. How does this work? How does it change when you get a maneuver readied at 5th?

[WhamBamSam]

Of interest, it appears that the judges in Iron Chef for Shadow Sun Ninja were fine with just two martial study feats to qualify. I haven't exhaustively checked the thread, but four of the entries I've read qualified without elegance penalty.Kuul specifically ruled that one 2nd level maneuver from one discipline, and one first level maneuver from the other was good enough to qualify.


Anyway - got sidetracked.

So assuming the character has levels of Warblade - would the maneuvers learned from SSN also add to the Warblade's known maneuvers? (I'm almost certain its yes, I just want verification)

Actually another clarification question - can you prepare the same maneuvers in multiple maneuver slots? Could I get 3x mighty throw for instance?


So then on the no-warblade levels:

How do the maneuvers/etc from the SSN function if the character doesn't already have any ToB base classes? For example, as a 3rd level SSN the character would know 2 maneuvers, but have 0 maneuvers readied. How does this work? How does it change when you get a maneuver readied at 5th?Yes. Maneuvers known/readied gotten from SSN would add to Warblade maneuvers known/readied.

I don't think you can use multiple slots on the same maneuver People are generally pretty quick to disabuse the notion that you can spam one maneuver over and over again when they talk about how much better the ToB mechanics represent real world martial arts (which they do). I don't have a rules citation at hand on that point though.

Your total maneuvers readied would equal the number of Martial Study feats you have plus the number of readied maneuvers you get through SSN. You wouldn't have a recovery mechanic. Each maneuver would be 1/encounter.

[justiceforall]

Kuul specifically ruled that one 2nd level maneuver from one discipline, and one first level maneuver from the other was good enough to qualify.

Ah thanks - there is little chance I would have spotted that in the enormous thread.


Your total maneuvers readied would equal the number of Martial Study feats you have plus the number of readied maneuvers you get through SSN.

Are you saying that even without swordsage/crusader/warblade levels the martial study feats would blend in with the readied manuevers? That isn't how I understood the martial study feat - specifically:

"If you do not have martial adept levels when you take this feat, and you later gain a level in a class that grants maneuvers known, these new maneuvers can only be used once per encounter and have no recovery method."

[WhamBamSam]

Ah thanks - there is little chance I would have spotted that in the enormous thread.



Are you saying that even without swordsage/crusader/warblade levels the martial study feats would blend in with the readied manuevers? That isn't how I understood the martial study feat - specifically:

"If you do not have martial adept levels when you take this feat, and you later gain a level in a class that grants maneuvers known, these new maneuvers can only be used once per encounter and have no recovery method."Sure. No problem.

The rules for qualifying for and taking levels in ToB PrCs with only Martial Study maneuvers are different. Try the PrCs section in ToB maybe?

[justiceforall]

Ok I've moved this question also to the RAW thread.

So moving on once again - What are the most straightforward ways to get an SSN to actually cause reasonable damage? I would assume it suffers the same general drawbacks as a monk (reliant on full attacks, cannot really use power attack, doesn't have sneak attack or extra dice, etc)?

[Techwarrior]

The class natively grants unarmed damage progression, which is really easy to optimize so as to not need Power Attack or 'extra dice.' Grab a Necklace of Natural Attacks keyed to 1 natural weapon, use it on your Unarmed Strike, and increase (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127732-3-X-Increasing-Size-Effective-Size-Unarmed-Damage-Reach) the effective size of your Unarmed Strike.

Plus, your an initiator.

[Kuulvheysoon]

If you can manage to nab it, stacking the Martial Study feats on a Warblade chassis, then nabbing Stormguard Warrior might help out.

Get a Pearl of Power/Whatever for your Wizard buddy to cast (Greater) Mighty Wallop on you?

[justiceforall]

The class natively grants unarmed damage progression, which is really easy to optimize so as to not need Power Attack or 'extra dice.' Grab a Necklace of Natural Attacks keyed to 1 natural weapon, use it on your Unarmed Strike, and increase the effective size of your Unarmed Strike.

I've had a look, there's a few easy options in there, thanks. PersonMan does good summary/overview threads.


Plus, your an initiator.

Having never actually used ToB a single time in my life, this is somewhat less useful of a comment.


If you can manage to nab it, stacking the Martial Study feats on a Warblade chassis, then nabbing Stormguard Warrior might help out.

I did look at using at least one level of Warblade as a possibility because of the refresh mechanic appearing to work in conjunction with either a full attack or touch of the shadow sun:

"You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack"

I've read Stormguard Warrior, but apart from being interesting and fun looking, it doesn't appear to offer an obvious route given you seemingly have to give up damage (attacks) to cause damage? What am I missing?


Get a Pearl of Power/Whatever for your Wizard buddy to cast (Greater) Mighty Wallop on you?

All of a sudden Use Magic Device looks (even more) awesome.

[Immabozo]

Ok I've moved this question also to the RAW thread.

So moving on once again - What are the most straightforward ways to get an SSN to actually cause reasonable damage? I would assume it suffers the same general drawbacks as a monk (reliant on full attacks, cannot really use power attack, doesn't have sneak attack or extra dice, etc)?

The touch attack negative energy damage = unarmed strike damage + wis is a great place to start on the SSN being useful.

Take Psychic Warrior 8 to get Expansion and graft weapon, graft two weapons with whatever weapon shenanigans you like, with two weapon fighting (since graft weapon counts as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon. SSN to be able to do a touch attack and a free heal the following round, better saves and some reaction moves to do, War Hulk 4 for making each attack hit 3 squares, bear warrior 1 to qualify for War Shaper and go 4 deep for 5 feet reach and grow you natural attacks +1 size category.

It's a very rough build, but, with cleave and great cleave, 7 attacks with a high to-hit that each hit 3 squares and another attack each time you drop someone, dealing 8D6 + about 30 or 40 and 20' reach.

With defenses, an alternate touch attack and heal combo as an alternate and psionic powers to fill in some other roles and options

[HammeredWharf]

I've read Stormguard Warrior, but apart from being interesting and fun looking, it doesn't appear to offer an obvious route given you seemingly have to give up damage (attacks) to cause damage? What am I missing?

Combat rhythm rocks. Let's say you've got six attacks. During round 1, you full attack and hit with all of them (because they're touch attacks). The next round, each of your attacks deals +30 damage, so you're doing 180 damage from Stormguard Warrior alone. Also remember that while you can't deal damage during the first round, nothing prevents you from using special attacks like Trip or using Balance of Light and Dark to bestow negative levels.

It's not ubercharger-level damage, but it's a good feat.

[Immabozo]

Combat rhythm rocks. Let's say you've got six attacks. During round 1, you full attack and hit with all of them (because they're touch attacks). The next round, each of your attacks deals +30 damage, so you're doing 180 damage from Stormguard Warrior alone. Also remember that while you can't deal damage during the first round, nothing prevents you from using special attacks like Trip or using Balance of Light and Dark to bestow negative levels.

It's not ubercharger-level damage, but it's a good feat.

If the touch attack from SSN is what you mean, thats a no-go. It is only one attack.

[HammeredWharf]

If the touch attack from SSN is what you mean, thats a no-go. It is only one attack.

I'm not sure what you mean. SSN has only one way of inflicting negative levels. It's the capstone ability called Balance of Light and Dark and you can full attack with it.

[Immabozo]

I'm not sure what you mean. SSN has only one way of inflicting negative levels. It's the capstone ability called Balance of Light and Dark and you can full attack with it.

So I actually looked in the book this time, lol. Touch of the Shadow Sun is the 1st level ability and it is a standard action. It is a touch attack and not elligible for use in a full attack.

I do not refer at all to the capstone ability

[Klarth]

Combat rhythm rocks. Let's say you've got six attacks. During round 1, you full attack and hit with all of them (because they're touch attacks). The next round, each of your attacks deals +30 damage, so you're doing 180 damage from Stormguard Warrior alone. Also remember that while you can't deal damage during the first round, nothing prevents you from using special attacks like Trip or using Balance of Light and Dark to bestow negative levels.

It's not ubercharger-level damage, but it's a good feat.

An alternate way to use Combat Rhythm is to attack for damage with your high BAB iteratives and touch attack with your less likely to hit low BAB ones.

[justiceforall]

How does Touch of the Shadow Sun interact with Snap Kick? Is the first attack a touch attack for negative damage and then the snap kick is normal damage, or are they both negative?

[HammeredWharf]

Snap Kick deals normal damage, because the ability is an attack. It doesn't turn your attacks into ones that deal negative energy damage.

[Chronos]

It never even occurred to me that someone might think SSN would require three maneuvers, as nothing in the requirements suggests that. There are three requirements, sure, but those three requirements can be met with only two maneuvers. In fact, the way the requirements are set up, it's not just possible but trivial to do so. If you have one first-level Setting Sun maneuver and one second-level Shadow Hand maneuver, which requirement do you not meet?

[Millennium]

I disagree. The grammar is clear and unambiguous: three items in a clearly-marked list means three maneuvers. There are plenty of simple grammatical options that could have applied if the first item was meant to modify the other two, and none of them were used.

[HammeredWharf]

There are plenty of simple grammatical options that could have applied if the first item was meant to modify the other two, and none of them were used.

There are plenty of simple grammatical options that could have applied if the first item was meant not to modify the other two, and none of them were used.

I understand viewing it as a "shopping list". If you tell someone to go to a shop and buy half a liter of water and a liter of coke, they can't just buy a liter of coke because it also contains a liter of water and pretend they completed the task. However, that's RAI. You assume the writer made a shopping list. If you assume absolutely nothing and view the requirement as a simple, logical statement, two maneuvers fulfill it as I proved earlier.

[Immabozo]

How does Touch of the Shadow Sun interact with Snap Kick? Is the first attack a touch attack for negative damage and then the snap kick is normal damage, or are they both negative?

I dont think it works. You are not making an attack, it is a standard action to use Touch of the Shadow Sun. You could use snap kick no better or worse than if you were casting a spell

[Chronos]

Quoth HammeredWharf:

I understand viewing it as a "shopping list". If you tell someone to go to a shop and buy half a liter of water and a liter of coke, they can't just buy a liter of coke because it also contains a liter of water and pretend they completed the task. However, that's RAI. You assume the writer made a shopping list. If you assume absolutely nothing and view the requirement as a simple, logical statement, two maneuvers fulfill it as I proved earlier.
I'm not sure that's really the right analogy. If I gave someone a shopping list that just said "1 liter of water", and they brought back a 2-liter bottle of Coke, I wouldn't be happy. But if we just had only the requirement of "one Shadow Hand maneuver", and someone had a second-level SH maneuver, we'd all agree that the requirement was met.

[nedz]

I think it's a list of three things too, but it's obviously badly written and so I'm adding this to the Dysfunctional Rules thread — since a house rule is required.

[justiceforall]

I dont think it works. You are not making an attack, it is a standard action to use Touch of the Shadow Sun. You could use snap kick no better or worse than if you were casting a spell

From the ability:

"With a melee touch attack made as a standard action"

That looks like an attack to me.

However, from snap kick:

"When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons"

I guess the tricky wording here is melee weapons?

[Immabozo]

From the ability:

"With a melee touch attack made as a standard action"

That looks like an attack to me.

However, from snap kick:

"When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons"

I guess the tricky wording here is melee weapons?

Sounds like you are delivering a touch attack spell, actually. It is a standard action, make a touch attack to deliver the negative energy. It is not at all a part of an attack.

Now, on the other hand, if your interpretation was correct, the class would be godly. you and any friendly within arms length would never go down if optimized properly

[justiceforall]

Now, on the other hand, if your interpretation was correct, the class would be godly. you and any friendly within arms length would never go down if optimized properly

I'd probably interpret the touch of the shadow sun as not working on the second attack as the ability pretty much spells out that it works on that particular melee touch - snap kick would just generate another punch to the face.

Regardless the wording in touch of the shadow sun, specifically "In the round after you use this ability" and "You cannot use both aspects of this ability on the same round, nor can you use the negative energy touch again in a round after you have already successfully used it" seems to expressly prevent ridiculous abuse of this ability anyway. Godly? I can't see how?


Sounds like you are delivering a touch attack spell, actually. It is a standard action, make a touch attack to deliver the negative energy. It is not at all a part of an attack.

The wording of snap kick suggests to me it is reliant on an attack, not an attack action. As this is an attack, I would expect it to trigger snap kick (assuming the melee weapons thing doesn't get in the way). I'm also of the school of thought that snap kick triggers on AoOs though, which is still not agreed on either way by RAW as far as I can tell.

It would have been real nice if Wizards had done proper errata for ToB.


I think it's a list of three things too, but it's obviously badly written and so I'm adding this to the Dysfunctional Rules thread — since a house rule is required.

The reason I suspect it is not the case is unless you are a swordsage, requiring three maneuvers mandates you have to burn three feats on martial study. Which seems prohibitive in design to the point of being silly to not simply mandate a level of swordsage or some swordsage-only ability as a requirement instead.

[Immabozo]

I'd probably interpret the touch of the shadow sun as not working on the second attack as the ability pretty much spells out that it works on that particular melee touch - snap kick would just generate another punch to the face.

Regardless the wording in touch of the shadow sun, specifically "In the round after you use this ability" and "You cannot use both aspects of this ability on the same round, nor can you use the negative energy touch again in a round after you have already successfully used it" seems to expressly prevent ridiculous abuse of this ability anyway. Godly? I can't see how?

It is a standard action to use it. Read the War Hulk ability. At level four it specifies that you can use it as part of a full attack or AoO. Not that, that dictates how it works, but as an example. I suppose you think a spell can be cast in the middle of a full attack, just because it is a standard action and a melee touch attack?


The wording of snap kick suggests to me it is reliant on an attack, not an attack action. As this is an attack, I would expect it to trigger snap kick (assuming the melee weapons thing doesn't get in the way). I'm also of the school of thought that snap kick triggers on AoOs though, which is still not agreed on either way by RAW as far as I can tell.

It would have been real nice if Wizards had done proper errata for ToB.

Much of D&D would be better if they did.

Snap kick does not trigger on just any attack. See the above casting mid full attack just because it requires a melee touch attack

[justiceforall]

I suppose you think a spell can be cast in the middle of a full attack, just because it is a standard action and a melee touch attack?

Sigh, so we've gotten to this level have we? No, this is obviously not the case, and I don't recall suggesting or even implying that this was how it works.


Snap kick does not trigger on just any attack.

And I've clearly shown where I think that it does trigger on just any attack. From the feat (emphasis mine):

"When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons"

It does not state what sort of attack (yes, it provides examples, but not as an exhaustive list), merely that it has to be an attack. Touch of the shadow sun uses the word attack in the text, and it does not specifically preclude other triggers from occurring. Hence my interpretation that despite its "spell like" characteristics you've assigned it, it would still trigger snap kick by literal interpretation of the rules.

If you or anyone else can show me a definitive piece of errata, rules FAQ, or anything else that clearly shows snap kick requires specifically a standard or full attack (or otherwise) action to trigger, then I will concede this point and thank you for the reference. Until then, you'll need a better or a clearer argument than what you've shown me.


EDIT: disclaimer - the use of the term "melee weapon" is still bugging me on the validity of snap kick with melee touch attacks and may still invalidate the feat activation

[Immabozo]

Sigh, so we've gotten to this level have we? No, this is obviously not the case, and I don't recall suggesting or even implying that this was how it works.

And I've clearly shown where I think that it does trigger on just any attack. From the feat (emphasis mine):

"When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons"

It does not state what sort of attack (yes, it provides examples, but not as an exhaustive list), merely that it has to be an attack. Touch of the shadow sun uses the word attack in the text, and it does not specifically preclude other triggers from occurring. Hence my interpretation that despite its "spell like" characteristics you've assigned it, it would still trigger snap kick by literal interpretation of the rules.

If you or anyone else can show me a definitive piece of errata, rules FAQ, or anything else that clearly shows snap kick requires specifically a standard or full attack (or otherwise) action to trigger, then I will concede this point and thank you for the reference. Until then, you'll need a better or a clearer argument than what you've shown me.

EDIT: disclaimer - the use of the term "melee weapon" is still bugging me on the validity of snap kick with melee touch attacks and may still invalidate the feat activation

It is a totally valid argument to show you the faulty in your logic. The class is just worse than you want it to be. If you house rule it fixed, then that's different.

Many spells are "target: make a melee touch attack" should snap kick be able to be used here? Or as part of a full attack action? After all, it uses the word attack. Or perhaps any spell that requires a touch attack. After all, it uses the word "attack".

you are trying to twist the rules to what you want them to be. That is not an insult. We are all guilty of it at one time or another.

It is a single attack and it requires a standard action to use. is is decidedly not a "melee attack", it is the channeling of negative energy. It doesn't even get str to damage for god's sake!

[justiceforall]

It is a totally valid argument to show you the faulty in your logic. The class is just worse than you want it to be.

So anyone that disagrees with you is obviously clouded by their own desire-born bias? Please leave your value judgements at the door.


Many spells are "target: make a melee touch attack" should snap kick be able to be used here? Or as part of a full attack action? After all, it uses the word attack. Or perhaps any spell that requires a touch attack. After all, it uses the word "attack".

Yes I would assume snap kick works on spells that use a touch attack (assuming melee touch attack counts as a weapon). Snap kick also definitely works as part of a full attack action, it is expressly provided as an example in the text. And in case you are just being unclear in your language and meant to try and say that I was arguing Touch of the Shadow Sun can be used as part of a full attack, the text specifically precludes it "With a melee touch attack made as a standard action". It is clear that a standard action is not a full-round action.


It is a single attack and it requires a standard action to use. is is decidedly not a "melee attack", it is the channeling of negative energy. It doesn't even get str to damage for god's sake!

So by your example and using your own argument style, the following is no longer an attack either since it doesn't get strength to damage? (It's a rhetorical question)

"Weak Spot: A master thrower can gain this ability only after reaching 5th level. When using a thrown weapon against a target of her size or larger, the character can make a ranged touch attack instead of a normal attack. If the attack hits, the master thrower does not apply her Strength bonus to the damage."

Regardless, I'm done with this line of discussion here, I'll take it up in the RAW thread.


Further questions for others:

- It seems like the class (SSN) can use a *lot* of swift actions between maneuvers, Touch/Flames/Void of the Shadow Sun, etc. Is this a standard problem with ToB characters in general or is SSN a particular offender? Is there any way to get more swift actions or to make better use of them? I actually looked at Travel Devotion to be able to full attack and move, but noted that this is also a swift action to use.

- Light within Darkness is obviously fun when your character leaps from the shadows/invisibility/etc to smack someone, but it seems hard to trigger after that. Are there many ways to hide as a free action or at least get action economy to try and retrigger Light within Darkness mid combat?

- Darkness Within Light obviously precludes the various forms of blind-sight, etc, but it doesn't seem to prevent the use of Uncanny Dodge to at least prevent everything else from hitting you flat-footed?

[Immabozo]

So anyone that disagrees with you is obviously clouded by their own desire-born bias? Please leave your value judgements at the door.

and anyone who disagrees with you is a judging you?


Yes I would assume snap kick works on spells that use a touch attack (assuming melee touch attack counts as a weapon). ... And in case you are just being unclear in your language and meant to try and say that I was arguing Touch of the Shadow Sun can be used as part of a full attack, the text specifically precludes it "With a melee touch attack made as a standard action". It is clear that a standard action is not a full-round action.

Many spells have the same text. just because it is an "attack" doesn't mean it can be used in a full attack action. Should a wizard get iterative attacks based on a high BAB because the spell they're casting is a melee touch attack? Or maybe the two weapon fighting tree should allow the wizard to cast one melee touch attack out of each hand? It is an attack that only takes one hand.

I'm sorry, but you are twisting the ability to work in ways it doesn't. Although, yes, the words "melee" and "Touch attack" are used, there is no indication that it is more subject to use in a full attack action than any other spell or ability in the game that takes a standard action and uses the words "touch attack" or "melee touch attack".

You've used you standard action to make the attack. How do you plan to make more attacks?


It seems like the class (SSN) can use a *lot* of swift actions between maneuvers, Touch/Flames/Void of the Shadow Sun, etc. Is this a standard problem with ToB characters in general or is SSN a particular offender? Is there any way to get more swift actions or to make better use of them? I actually looked at Travel Devotion to be able to full attack and move, but noted that this is also a swift action to use.

It is actually in the rules dysfunction that the SSN uses more swift actions, per RAW, than is legal. Using an immediate action and then getting a swift action to shoot a bolt of energy the following turn, is using more actions of the type than is legal.

Also, you are assuming that SSN is a good PrC. I have played it. It is far from good. It takes high levels of optimization to keep up with unoptimized characters

[HammeredWharf]

I don't think meant you can use Touch of the Shadow Sun in a full attack. He meant you can use Snap Kick in a full attack and I definitely agree with that. You can also use Snap Kick after a melee touch attack spell, but I guess the applications of that are quite few. Could be great for a Sacred Fist.


- It seems like the class (SSN) can use a *lot* of swift actions between maneuvers, Touch/Flames/Void of the Shadow Sun, etc. Is this a standard problem with ToB characters in general or is SSN a particular offender? Is there any way to get more swift actions or to make better use of them? I actually looked at Travel Devotion to be able to full attack and move, but noted that this is also a swift action to use.

The lack of swift actions is a problem many ToB characters face, but it's especially bad in this case. It's why RKV's Divine Impetus isn't totally useless as written (as a standard action). On the other hand, many ToB characters don't have to full attack, because they use strikes.


- Light within Darkness is obviously fun when your character leaps from the shadows/invisibility/etc to smack someone, but it seems hard to trigger after that. Are there many ways to hide as a free action or at least get action economy to try and retrigger Light within Darkness mid combat?

Hiding as a free action is impossible, as far as I know. Even (improved) invisibility wouldn't help in this case, but you can pick Travel Devotion and hide as as part of movement.


- Darkness Within Light obviously precludes the various forms of blind-sight, etc, but it doesn't seem to prevent the use of Uncanny Dodge to at least prevent everything else from hitting you flat-footed?

Yep, it doesn't.

[Immabozo]

I don't think meant you can use Touch of the Shadow Sun in a full attack. He meant you can use Snap Kick in a full attack and I definitely agree with that. You can also use Snap Kick after a melee touch attack spell, but I guess the applications of that are quite few. Could be great for a Sacred Fist.

No, he justiceforall was certainly arguing that Touch of the Shadow Sun could be used as part of a full attack. He initially was saying that it made all attacks that round into touch attacks.

When I told him it didn't work that way, but his DM was always free to houserule that it did, he got angry at me.

even if snap kick works on touch attack spells, which I doubt it does, it would STILL be a waste of a feat for a caster. Only MAYBE worth it for a gish. But I could think of a million better feats for both a caster and a gish

[justiceforall]

No, he justiceforall was certainly arguing that Touch of the Shadow Sun could be used as part of a full attack. He initially was saying that it made all attacks that round into touch attacks.

No that wasn't even close to what I was saying. I don't even recall discussing full attacks.

I was proposing that a spell based melee attack still triggers snap kick, which I believe has been agreed to in the RAW thread. I have no idea how you managed to interpret that I was proposing Touch could be part of a full attack.


When I told him it didn't work that way, but his DM was always free to houserule that it did, he got angry at me.

and anyone who disagrees with you is a judging you?

You've repeatedly put motive into my statements: "you are trying to twist the rules". This is judging my intentions, which is insulting. There would have been no angst here if you'd just kept to discussing the rules.


HammeredWharf:


You can also use Snap Kick after a melee touch attack spell, but I guess the applications of that are quite few. Could be great for a Sacred Fist.

You can, but I believe only if you use an unarmed attack to deliver it instead of a touch attack. Which unfortunately would disqualify Touch of the Shadow Sun as there is no way I can think of to deliver Touch as a strike instead since its a (Su) and not a (Sp). See the RAW thread for Curmudgeons discussion on the matter.


Hiding as a free action is impossible, as far as I know. Even (improved) invisibility wouldn't help in this case, but you can pick Travel Devotion and hide as as part of movement.

Hiding as part of movement - can you point me at the part of the rules that spells out hiding and actions? The SRD is a little unclear, I can get to your conclusion but I have to infer it. Is there some way you can use feats and creating a diversion to generate more hide checks?

[HammeredWharf]

You can, but I believe only if you use an unarmed attack to deliver it instead of a touch attack. Which unfortunately would disqualify Touch of the Shadow Sun as there is no way I can think of to deliver Touch as a strike instead since its a (Su) and not a (Sp). See the RAW thread for Curmudgeons discussion on the matter.

Oh, I guess I misread Snap Kick. After rereading it I agree with Curmudgeon.


Hiding as part of movement - can you point me at the part of the rules that spells out hiding and actions? The SRD is a little unclear, I can get to your conclusion but I have to infer it. Is there some way you can use feats and creating a diversion to generate more hide checks?

Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm):


Action

Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action.

I think it's quite clear.

As for more Hide checks, you make one each time you attack from hiding. Yes, you take a -20 penalty, but that shouldn't be a huge problem if you've optimized Hide and your opponents aren't all druids with maximized Spot. You can use good old Greater Invisibility to negate that penalty, but it's a bit clumsy if you don't have a DMM: Persist cleric capable of casting it.

[justiceforall]

Oh, I guess I misread Snap Kick. After rereading it I agree with Curmudgeon.



Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm):



I think it's quite clear.

As for more Hide checks, you make one each time you attack from hiding. Yes, you take a -20 penalty, but that shouldn't be a huge problem if you've optimized Hide and your opponents aren't all druids with maximized Spot. You can use good old Greater Invisibility to negate that penalty, but it's a bit clumsy if you don't have a DMM: Persist cleric capable of casting it.

Yeah I was hoping they'd done a list or a table, but it seems like its basically a "move action".

I wonder if the Shadow Striker (or Improved Diversion) feat has any useful applications to this, but it doesn't seem like it. I mean, it seems like it works, but it doesn't seem like good action economy?

Can Gloom Razor trigger Light Within Darkness?

[HammeredWharf]

Anything that lets you make a Hide check works, so Gloom Razor's Lingering Gloom is ok. Improved Diversion and Shadow Striker are, indeed, very bad action economy wise.

[justiceforall]

So let's assume I build this character to qualify at level 6 (using the 3rd and 6th level feats for martial study) and take the first level of SSN at 7th. I'm not even sure I could qualify earlier than that without taking a level of Swordsage?

The 3rd level feat has to be a 1st level maneuver so probably Mighty Throw or something similar. The 6th level Martial Study can be a 2nd level maneuver? (not a 3rd, since that would require you to be equivalent 5th level Swordsage - did I interpret that correctly?) So for example, Shadow Jaunt.

So if I want to put a single level of Warblade into those 6 levels somewhere, where is the best point to do it? Taking the level earlier lets the Martial Study feats become normal maneuvers, but taking it later gives access to higher level Warblade maneuvers. I'm also not even sure that I would want the Martial Study maneuvers to become normal maneuvers; for example if I only ever want to use those maneuvers once an encounter I'm better off leaving them out of my maneuver list since effectively I gain an additional maneuver slot for it (albeit without a recovery mechanic)?

[HammeredWharf]

Are you trying to use the warblade refresh mechanic for the SSN maneuvers? In that case, I think you have to take Martial Study after your warblade level.

And yes, without any SS levels you can only get in at lvl 7, a level later than a SS could.

[justiceforall]

Are you trying to use the warblade refresh mechanic for the SSN maneuvers? In that case, I think you have to take Martial Study after your warblade level.

I would be trying to use the Warblade refresh mechanic for most maneuvers. I'm not sure if I care if its for all the maneuvers, because it seems like by adding the Martial Study feats to the maneuvers list I would lose out slightly by not having those abilities as additional once-per-encounter tricks (and warblades only get 3 maneuvers readied at 1st). Obviously if the Setting Sun and Shadow Hand maneuvers were awesome and I wanted to jam them multiple times an encounter then that would change the decisions, but I'm honestly not familiar enough with ToB to make an educated decision there.

I had a look at the ToB for dummies guide and it shows a few good break points for Warblade - taking the Warblade level at 6th for instance lets you get Iron Heart Surge for example if you are so inclined. The tradeoff here is that if I take Warblade at 6th, whatever maneuver I take with Martial Study at 3rd level is not added to the Warblade maneuvers, it is instead a stand alone once-per-encounter ability. I've never used the ToB at all, so I'm not even sure which maneuvers are good, bad or indifferent, so I was looking for direction on what sort of qualifying (for SSN) maneuver would be useful to have once per encounter, or if I'm better off just taking Warblade at somewhere in the 1st-3rd level, having both Martial Study maneuvers on the warblade list, and not getting easier access to the higher level Warblade maneuvers.

[justiceforall]

Just to be clear, I'm also looking for general low-level (1st-6th) ToB assistance or commentary for a beat-stick Warblade with ninja-ish themes, since as I said, I know jack about ToB in practical use.

[Immabozo]

Just to be clear, I'm also looking for general low-level (1st-6th) ToB assistance or commentary for a beat-stick Warblade with ninja-ish themes, since as I said, I know jack about ToB in practical use.

Well, here's on, if you got swordsage, at level 1, it is 6+int x 6 kill points!

[HammeredWharf]

At lvl 3 and without any SS levels, you've got access to Shadow Blade Technique, Clinging Shadow Strike, Counter Charge and Mighty Throw. I'd pick Counter Charge. It's situational, but very satisfying when you get to use it. Perfect for your 1/encounter trick. The others are offensive and scale unfortunately badly with level.

If you choose Counter Charge, you can pick between Cloak of Deception and Shadow Jaunt for you 2nd level maneuver. There's also Drain Vitality, but let's ignore it. SJ is very good for a 2nd level maneuver, but standard action teleportation is cheap (Dimension Stride Boots, MIC, 2K gold) and not that useful later on, especially with the LoS requirement. On the other hand, CoD is a swift action Greater Invisibility, which is all kinds of awesome. With your ninja theme and Hide-based abilities, it could be one of your main maneuvers.

As for general Warblade tips, there's a handbook for that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?176968-Masters-of-the-Sword-A-Warblade-s-Handbook-Under-Construction). Most of it applies to you, but keep in mind that your initiator level is much lower than that of a pure Warblade, so you're better off picking maneuvers with scaling or unique bonuses (Moment of Perfect Mind, Sudden Leap, Wall of Blades, Mountain Hammer, Battle Leader’s Charge, Blood in the Water, Hunter’s Sense, Leading the Charge, Insightful Strike) than those with static bonuses, like Stone Bones. Warblade's early supermaneuvers are Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics, but unfortunately you'll get neither. WRT could be worth spending a feat on later on.

[justiceforall]

Counter Charge and Mighty Throw. I'd pick Counter Charge. It's situational, but very satisfying when you get to use it. Perfect for your 1/encounter trick.

I just reread Counter Charge. As you said it seems great for a one per encounter trick.

When you get to move the offender up to 2 squares, does that count as movement which would also provoke AoOs where appropriate?

I really like Mighty Throw, but I could use SSN maneuvers to pick up the better Setting Sun throws later.


On the other hand, CoD is a swift action Greater Invisibility, which is all kinds of awesome. With your ninja theme and Hide-based abilities, it could be one of your main maneuvers.

It also seems like a good way to potentially activate Light Within Darkness without sucking, especially if I pick up some sort of strike maneuver to use in the same turn so losing the full attack isn't as bad.


As for general Warblade tips, there's a handbook for that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?176968-Masters-of-the-Sword-A-Warblade-s-Handbook-Under-Construction). Most of it applies to you, but keep in mind that your initiator level is much lower than that of a pure Warblade

On that note - "You add your full Shadow Sun ninja levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known" - appears to imply that SSN levels count full towards Warblade maneuvers even though they do not share the same schools?


Warblade's early supermaneuvers are Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics, but unfortunately you'll get neither. WRT could be worth spending a feat on later on.

Yeah I went and reread the guide's Warblade dip section and you have to have 8 other non-initiator class levels to qualify for those two. So the build would have to be monk or other classes 2/warblade 4 or other classes 8/warblade 1, etc. if I understand it correctly.

[Immabozo]

On that note - "You add your full Shadow Sun ninja levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known" - appears to imply that SSN levels count full towards Warblade maneuvers even though they do not share the same schools?

That would by my assumption

EDIT: I can see a rules dysfunction entry here

[HammeredWharf]

When you get to move the offender up to 2 squares, does that count as movement which would also provoke AoOs where appropriate?

It's still the same action as the charge, so it doesn't provoke another AoO if you've already AoOed the target for charging you. Otherwise, yes.


On that note - "You add your full Shadow Sun ninja levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known" - appears to imply that SSN levels count full towards Warblade maneuvers even though they do not share the same schools?

Yeah I went and reread the guide's Warblade dip section and you have to have 8 other non-initiator class levels to qualify for those two. So the build would have to be monk or other classes 2/warblade 4 or other classes 8/warblade 1, etc. if I understand it correctly.

Yes to both. Several ToB PRCs don't share their schools with the entry classes, so this isn't particularly uncommon. In the Other 2 / WB 4 case, you'd have to take another level of WB to get both IHS and WRT, because you only get one new maneuver per level.

[justiceforall]

Ok so a bunch of people (including the RAW thread) said in answer to my question "how does gaining maneuvers when you don't have any martial adept class levels work" that I should refer to the ToB in the prestige class section. I read it and the maneuvers section but I'm still not 100% clear. It appears to say that if you don't have any martial adept class levels, you treat every maneuver learned as if it were an additional martial study feat - eg: once per encounter. That would then imply that the "maneuvers readied" gained in that instance from SSN would not do anything?

[HammeredWharf]

Ok so a bunch of people (including the RAW thread) said in answer to my question "how does gaining maneuvers when you don't have any martial adept class levels work" that I should refer to the ToB in the prestige class section. I read it and the maneuvers section but I'm still not 100% clear. It appears to say that if you don't have any martial adept class levels, you treat every maneuver learned as if it were an additional martial study feat - eg: once per encounter. That would then imply that the "maneuvers readied" gained in that instance from SSN would not do anything?

Yes. You have to pick at least one ToB base class to get a reasonable recovery mechanic.

[Immabozo]

That would then imply that the "maneuvers readied" gained in that instance from SSN would not do anything?

you answered your own question.


It appears to say that if you don't have any martial adept class levels, you treat every maneuver learned as if it were an additional martial study feat - eg: once per encounter.

SSN is a martial study class, isn't it? Having this rule for the basic classes would be ridiculous, wouldn't it? And then you read this in the section about prestige classes, right? How is this still a question?

[justiceforall]

Yes. You have to pick at least one ToB base class to get a reasonable recovery mechanic.

Well my question wasn't aimed at making sure I had a recovery mechanic - it was more to make sure I understood the implication that "maneuvers readied" is a dead column for SSN if you qualify without martial adept, and that maneuvers readied didn't have some other role that I hadn't followed clearly. I had (incorrectly) made the assumption that maneuvers readied would still have some sort of effect even without martial adept levels, but I guess I could have followed an analogy where "maneuvers readied = +1 caster level" equivalence which makes the interaction make more sense.

The theory here is to create a backup plan; whilst the GM might ban martial adepts, he would be far less likely to ban SSN specifically if it was solely qualified for via feats. The maneuvers and such weren't what attracted me to the class anyway, they are sort of like an added bonus. Given several other members of my group have a tendency to play un-optimised tier 5 classes, the power loss caused qualifying sans-martial-adept wouldn't be an issue.

[Immabozo]

Well my question wasn't aimed at making sure I had a recovery mechanic - it was more to make sure I understood the implication that "maneuvers readied" is a dead column for SSN if you qualify without martial adept, and that maneuvers readied didn't have some other role that I hadn't followed clearly. I had (incorrectly) made the assumption that maneuvers readied would still have some sort of effect even without martial adept levels, but I guess I could have followed an analogy where "maneuvers readied = +1 caster level" equivalence which makes the interaction make more sense.

The theory here is to create a backup plan; whilst the GM might ban martial adepts, he would be far less likely to ban SSN specifically if it was solely qualified for via feats. The maneuvers and such weren't what attracted me to the class anyway, they are sort of like an added bonus. Given several other members of my group have a tendency to play un-optimised tier 5 classes, the power loss caused qualifying sans-martial-adept wouldn't be an issue.

I see your confusion. You are correct. It is a "dead" class feature. you can ready more maneuvers, but do not know any more maneuvers to ready