Wizard Build (3.5) [Formerly Wizard Race]

[Valluman]

Very simple question here; what race do I pick for a 3.5 wizard starting at level 1? If people are wanting to min-max this, I'll give the end build.

1 Beguiler or Sorcerer/4 Wizard/10 Ultimate Magus/5 Archmage or Shadowcraft Mage, but I am wondering if there's anything more fun suggestions? Preferably keeping it down to 4 classes, since he seems to freak out anytime I do 1 level dips for X benefit or for Y feat to miraculously gain the benefit of. (The idea is to use the Practiced Spellcaster trick to end up as an effective 17th level wizard by the end of it).

I've been looking around, and the races that stand out most to me are the following:

Lesser Tiefling
Gray Elf
Arcane Gnome
Human

I'm leaning pretty heavily on the Arcane Gnome at the moment, but I thought I'd ask for a second opinion.

EDIT: The race issue is largely solved! I am wondering if there's any help with the build, though?

[Firechanter]

TBH I don't know about Arcane Gnomes, but Gray Elf (or Sun Elf in the Realms) is a pretty solid choice.
Lesser Tieflings would be, too, but their Cha penalty makes them less well suited for a Sorcerer side.

I once played a Gray Elf Wizard/Nar Demonbinder/Ultimate Magus and it worked pretty swell, with some 71 spell slots per day and, 17th-level Wizard casting at level 18. (Didn't play all the way to 20.)
e: Ah yes, instead of Archmage she had Incantatrix levels. Was pretty uber.

[Valluman]

Arcane Gnome loses the Speak With Animals SLA and gains Use Magic Device as a skill passively (always counts as a class skill), and in addition to the attribute changes of the normal Gnome, they also get +2 INT and -2 WIS; Wizard also becomes their favored class instead of Bard.

I have no experience with Incantrixes or Demonbinders, also. I don't want to weird out my DM with anything too out there, though. He's already been very stingy and fussy...

[Erik Vale]

Illuman [name might be wrong, not sure why but I remember it], Strongheart Halfling [Bonus feat, Small], Neraph [Actual Outsider with no LA, natural armor, will want to spend a feat on Naturalized denizen though, which can be useful anyway]

[Valluman]

I actually wanted Illumian, but the DM already said no to them. =<
I highly doubt that Neraph would be ok'd by this DM, and Strongheart would definitely be a maybe.

EDIT: Typo

[Erik Vale]

I think you mean ok'd there.
And why the Sorc dip? DM refusing to let you qualify with Spontaneous Divination?

[thethird]

Even if you qualify with spontaneous divination it is nice if those class features advance something :smalltongue:

I would recommend beguiler though, INT sinergy is cool.

[Valluman]

I think you mean ok'd there.
And why the Sorc dip? DM refusing to let you qualify with Spontaneous Divination?

Spont. Div. with Ultimate Magus? Or are you meaning going Mystic Theurge after Ultimate Magus? Either way, It's mostly a preference thing

And yeah, that was a typo.



I would recommend beguiler though, INT sinergy is cool.

That's what I was thinking, and the Gnome Illusion racials would be great for it.

[Sian]

Aleithian Dwarves (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20030926a) ... personally have a large love of Dwarven Wizards (they're probably the best race for mage duals), and it protentially open for access to Runesmith (exellent 1 level dip, which leaves you able to cast all types of armor)

[Firechanter]

I have no experience with Incantrixes or Demonbinders, also. I don't want to weird out my DM with anything too out there, though. He's already been very stingy and fussy...

That's very commendable of you, so it probably is wiser to skip the 'Trix. However, I have noticed time and again that this type of DM doesn't really appreciate when a player is holding back, but rather calls any show of competence "overpowered". If you must play with this kind of DM, the trick is to appear just moderately competent while in fact pulling strings in the background.

Last time I held back, I rolled a Ranger instead of an arcane caster because I didn't want the DM to be uncomfortable about my character's power. And what happened? Took less than three sessions before he ranted about my character being "able to do everything" and OP in combat.

Sorry, not meaning to derail the thread, just a little anecdote about how "holding back" can play out.

[Erik Vale]

Spont. Div. with Ultimate Magus? Or are you meaning going Mystic Theurge after Ultimate Magus? Either way, It's mostly a preference thing


No, just ultimate Magus. That way you get +17 wizard levels for casting over 10 levels. Oh, Dragonwrought Kobold of Old or Venerable age catagory, so you can combine the two for epic feats.
[In the interests of not turning this into a debate on the RAW of that sentence in the Dracomonicon, I won't be responding to counter-claims of Old/Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds not qualifying for epic feats through that ludicrous cheese.]

[Sian]

No, just ultimate Magus. That way you get +17 wizard levels for casting over 10 levels. Oh, Dragonwrought Kobold of Old or Venerable age catagory, so you can combine the two for epic feats.
[In the interests of not turning this into a debate on the RAW of that sentence in the Dracomonicon, I won't be responding to counter-claims of Old/Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds not qualifying for epic feats through that ludicrous cheese.]

certainly a reasoning thats not generally accepted ... was talked quite a bit a handful of Iron Chefs ago (think it was Osteomancer), where it was done with Sha'ir/Mystic Theurge as Venichle (as they have Arcane spells and limited access to divine spells), and IIRC the general opinion there were that it wasn't kosher to do.

[Firechanter]

Spontaneous Divination does not make the Wizard a "spontaneous arcane casting class". The feat may work for _qualifying_ for UM, but UM does not advance Wizard on both sides, because Wizard as a class is still Prepared and not Spontaneous.

Spont.Div has its place in UM builds that use special-progression classes on the Spontaneous side, such as the aforementioned Nar Demonbinder, whose spell list only starts at spell level 4.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

As far as stats are concerned, it's hard to beat this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?301651-3-5-Primordial-Cyclopeans-The-easy-bake-primordial-giant)

[Emperor Tippy]

Spontaneous Divination does not make the Wizard a "spontaneous arcane casting class". The feat may work for _qualifying_ for UM, but UM does not advance Wizard on both sides, because Wizard as a class is still Prepared and not Spontaneous.

Spont.Div has its place in UM builds that use special-progression classes on the Spontaneous side, such as the aforementioned Nar Demonbinder, whose spell list only starts at spell level 4.

This is wrong.

Spontaneous Divination is not a feat, it is a class feature. That makes a Spontaneous Divination Wizard both a prepared and a spontaneous casting class.

RAW on whether or not you can fast advance wizard using UM like that is iffy but that has to do with the classes wording on how levels are gained and how it interacts with the rules on leveling up, not on the wizard not being a spontaneous casting class.

[Firechanter]

Spontaneous Divination is not a feat, it is a class feature.

Ah my bad, I was mixing it up with Spontaneous Domains.
But still, even if it's an ACF, that _still_ doesn't make the entire class count as Spontaneous. Aside those other iffy parts you mentioned. That way or other, I can't imagine any DM in their right mind to ever allow a level 12 character with level 17 Wizard casting, so the discussion is rather moot anyway.

[Emperor Tippy]

Ah my bad, I was mixing it up with Spontaneous Domains.
But still, even if it's an ACF, that _still_ doesn't make the entire class count as Spontaneous.

Yeah it does. Wizards with the Spontaneous Divination class feature are classes that are both Prepared and Spontaneous casters.

Technically, Wizard with Spontaneous Divination is a different class than Wizard without Spontaneous Divination.

Honestly, they should have just made it a feat that requires at least 5 levels in the Wizard class.

Granted, I would have made it Spontaneous Specialization and have it cost all of the Wizard bonus feats.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If using Beguiler (which you want to do) you'll want a race that can take Able Learner, so any Humanoid (Human) will work for that including Illumian.

If you can't use Illumian (which gets 19/20 Wizard casting with Krau) then make it Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ UM with Master Spellthief. You can get Versatile Spellcaster at 1st, take a Wizard level at 2nd, and put a 2nd level spell in your spellbook before you get Spellthief at 3rd and can take Master Spellthief at that same level. You'll need at least one flaw to get Versatile Spellcaster, Able Learner, and a metamagic feat at 1st. Use this Wizard variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) to get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll.

With Master Spellthief you add all of your spellcaster levels (not caster levels, so Practiced Spellcaster is a waste) for determining your caster level in each class. UM further increases your caster level, and when it starts advancing multiple classes at once your caster level will begin to snowball. At level 15 you'll have Wizard 13 and Beguiler 8 spellcasting, for a total caster level of 26, at level 15. You'll only get +1 caster level per character level after that barring Legacy Champion or similar, but that still has a caster level of 31 at level 20.

[Valluman]

Oh, I misunderstood the Spon. Div. feat; I was thinking of the Alternative Source feat for some reason. That said, the DM won't allow that, I believe.

As for Dragonwrought Kobold that was actually my first choice, but he told me no. I even offered to NOT do the Epic Feat cheese with it and just be a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold as is, and he still denied that option. His reasoning wasn't really clear, but I honestly think it was largely because he thinks kobolds are "silly".

@Firechanter: He's the type that really, really thinks casters are too powerful. My initial idea for this campaign was to do the following
1 Crusader/6 Wizard/1 Spell Sword/5 Abjurant Champion/7 Eldritch Knight (or other full bab and full or mostly caster prc if I could find one) to come out with 17 BAB, the ability to use maneuvers as a 10th level Crusader, and spells as an 18th level wizard (or at least as a 17th level wizard to cast 9th level spells), but he was offended by the notion of me using Crusader for this purpose...

[Firechanter]

My initial idea for this campaign was to do the following
1 Crusader/6 Wizard/1 Spell Sword/5 Abjurant Champion/7 Eldritch Knight (or other full bab and full or mostly caster prc if I could find one) to come out with 17 BAB, the ability to use maneuvers as a 10th level Crusader, and spells as an 18th level wizard (or at least as a 17th level wizard to cast 9th level spells), but he was offended by the notion of me using Crusader for this purpose...

Really, I think that would have been a very nice decent build. I mean, it's not like you wanted to go Incantatrix + Arcane Disciple: War for +20 BAB and Full Casting.
Of course, your DM is right in that full casters are really absurdly powerful, and that they need to be kept in check somehow, but a player voluntarily sacrificing caster levels is a gift for game balance.

[Valluman]

Really, I think that would have been a very nice decent build. I mean, it's not like you wanted to go Incantatrix + Arcane Disciple: War for +20 BAB and Full Casting.
Of course, your DM is right in that full casters are really absurdly powerful, and that they need to be kept in check somehow, but a player voluntarily sacrificing caster levels is a gift for game balance.

I really have to look into Incantatrix, cause that sounds nifty...
Either way, I knew it wasn't the most powerful thing I could end up doing to go with that Gish build. Frankly, if I wanted to be truly ridiculous, I'd've gone 3 Druid/3 Wizard/10 Arcane Hierophant/4 Mystic Theurge; that's usually my "go-to" for when I play. It gets 17th level casting for druid and wizard, and the familiar companion ensures that the creature isn't wasted or forced into a stat monster (Hummingbird). Let's not forget that it's also capable of melee combat and transforming itself and casting spells as a plant or tiny creature... I mostly wanted to do something different this time. Though, admittingly weaker than either the Arcane Hierophant or the Ultimate Archmagus above (or Ultimate Shadowcraft Magus, potentially), I thought it'd be fun... But he got SO annoyed at my one level dip into Crusader and argued that playing a Crusader was "a lifestyle for the character" and not just a class to dip into.

[Firechanter]

I really have to look into Incantatrix, cause that sounds nifty...

Look, but don't touch! Your DM would be having kittens if you brought it to the table. The Trix is probably the most absurdly broken PrC in the entirety of 3.5, along with the Planar Shepherd.

[Valluman]

Noted!

Now that all is said and done, by the way, it seems like since the other good options I wanted were either not ok'd or won't be, it seems Arcane Gnome may be a good bet.

[Firechanter]

BTW, if you want to play a Gish and the Crusader dip is all your DM is getting hung up on, why not play it conservative and gain that Martial proficiency with a low-end class like Fighter? Or maybe the Militia feat from FR.

[Segev]

Out of curiosity, what about "using Crusader that way" irritated your DM?

[Valluman]

It's mostly because I wanted the maneuvers as well, for why I wanted the Crusader dip. I could do fighter, but that loses a lot of flavor without maneuvers in it. As for what annoyed my DM, it's because he felt "the crusader lifestyle requires devotion, so a one level dip goes against the mentality of the class". One thing I haven't suggested is being a Warblade with Heavy Armor Proficiency feat, but that's also dumping a feat for it.

If I wanted to skip maneuvers entirely, I could do fighter, sure, but that wasn't the initial idea.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For an arcane Gish, go Human Paragon 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Human Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ (Incantatrix 4)/ Eldritch Knight. But I'd stick with a Beguiler/Spellthief/Wizard/UM, it's an extremely fun build that has something for any situation.

[Valluman]

@Biff: The DM doesn't want us going into, like, seven different classes; he gets annoyed easily at things like that. I don't want to over-complicate it as it is, either. On a side note, what does the Spellthief route offer?

I know the thread as initially about race, but don't worry about that... Probably going to go with gnome if he okays it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

@Biff: The DM doesn't want us going into, like, seven different classes; he gets annoyed easily at things like that. I don't want to over-complicate it as it is, either. On a side note, what does the Spellthief route offer?

I know the thread as initially about race, but don't worry about that... Probably going to go with gnome if he okays it.

18th post in this thread, you must have missed it:

If using Beguiler (which you want to do) you'll want a race that can take Able Learner, so any Humanoid (Human) will work for that including Illumian.

If you can't use Illumian (which gets 19/20 Wizard casting with Krau) then make it Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ UM with Master Spellthief. You can get Versatile Spellcaster at 1st, take a Wizard level at 2nd, and put a 2nd level spell in your spellbook before you get Spellthief at 3rd and can take Master Spellthief at that same level. You'll need at least one flaw to get Versatile Spellcaster, Able Learner, and a metamagic feat at 1st. Use this Wizard variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) to get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll.

With Master Spellthief you add all of your spellcaster levels (not caster levels, so Practiced Spellcaster is a waste) for determining your caster level in each class. UM further increases your caster level, and when it starts advancing multiple classes at once your caster level will begin to snowball. At level 15 you'll have Wizard 13 and Beguiler 8 spellcasting, for a total caster level of 26, at level 15. You'll only get +1 caster level per character level after that barring Legacy Champion or similar, but that still has a caster level of 31 at level 20.

[Valluman]

He's not allowing us to take flaws, sadly. There's no way I'd be able to pick up a metamagic, able learner, practiced spellcaster, and versatile spellcaster before I enter UM, even if I go human.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

He's not allowing us to take flaws, sadly. There's no way I'd be able to pick up a metamagic, able learner, practiced spellcaster, and versatile spellcaster before I enter UM, even if I go human.

Even if you can't use flaws, you can go Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 4/ UM and get Master Spellthief at 6th, and still end up with 18/20 Wizard spellcasting. That means Able Learner, Versatile Spellcaster, and any metamagic feat at 1st and 3rd with a (Silverbrow) Human, and still get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll. Grab that 5th Wizard level after UM for one of the nice ACFs.

[Valluman]

I'm not certain how you think wizard would max out at 18 when UM would only add 7 levels to the casting without the use of the Practiced Spellcaster trick to add caster levels to Beguiler to make it higher than wizard upon entry. . Either way, I'm not really looking for a build, and I've settled on Arcane Gnome.

It's less work convincing the DM and less work for myself while still maintaining the flavor of what I want.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm not certain how you think wizard would max out at 18 when UM would only add 7 levels to the casting without the use of the Practiced Spellcaster trick to add caster levels to Beguiler to make it higher than wizard upon entry. . Either way, I'm not really looking for a build, and I've settled on Arcane Gnome.

It's less work convincing the DM and less work for myself while still maintaining the flavor of what I want.

Master Spellthief makes the caster levels of all your arcane spellcasting classes equal. You wouldn't have a lowest-caster-level class at those three UM levels that advance only one class, and would be free to pick Wizard at each of them.

[Valluman]

Master Spellthief makes the caster levels of all your arcane spellcasting classes equal. You wouldn't have a lowest-caster-level class at those three UM levels that advance only one class, and would be free to pick Wizard at each of them.

Oh, I see now, yeah, that makes much more sense now. I misread the feat, and I apologize for that.

May I ask why I'd need able learner, though?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Oh, I see now, yeah, that makes much more sense now. I misread the feat, and I apologize for that.

May I ask why I'd need able learner, though?

Able Learner is because Beguiler gives you so many amazing class skills, and it allows you to keep up your ranks in them without paying the cross-class skill cost during your Wizard and UM levels.

[Valluman]

Hrm, okay. I'll see what he thinks about the Silverbrow route; it seems more fun than I initially thought.

EDIT: That said, if I settle on Shadowcraft Mage, I obviously will have to pick the gnome; I won't have Able Learner, but the rest will be solid, though skills will be a bit more narrow.

[Irk]

I thought that the golden standard was a Venerable Necropolitan Grey Elf?

[Valluman]

I thought that the golden standard was a Venerable Necropolitan Grey Elf?

He said no to Necropolitans. >.>

[Valluman]

My dungeon master was offended by the spellthief idea!

I can still get Practiced Spellcaster and go with Beguiler 1/Wizard 4/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage or Shadowcraft Mage 5, but I am wondering if there's anymore fun suggestions? Preferably keeping it down to four classes, since he seems to freak out anytime I do 1 level dips for X benefit or for Y feat to miraculously gain the benefit of.

[Firechanter]

You're being very patient. After getting so many build ideas shot down, I'd feel tempted to resort to passively-aggressive behaviour and build a single-classed Wizard with Core Only spells that blows the DM's game to smithereens.

[Valluman]

You're being very patient. After getting so many build ideas shot down, I'd feel tempted to resort to passively-aggressive behaviour and build a single-classed Wizard with Core Only spells that blows the DM's game to smithereens.

I'm largely patient because I am rather versatile in what I can do. I'm not "too" picky, and I always have a way to build something new. I feel like presenting him with a 5 Wizard/10 Incantrix/5 Archmage to see the look of relief on his face at such a proposal.

[Valluman]

In the interest of not going through anymore work than I already have or possibilities for stressing out the DM, I've narrowed my options down.

Wizard 5/Incantrix 10/Archmage 5

Or

Archivist 1/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge (Alternate Spell Source entry) X-10/? X-?

That last part's what I'm hung up on. The decision relies entirely on what I get after or during Theurge. Of course, I want to max our Wizard casting to at least 17, once again.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

In the interest of not going through anymore work than I already have or possibilities for stressing out the DM, I've narrowed my options down.

Wizard 5/Incantrix 10/Archmage 5

Or

Archivist 1/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge (Alternate Spell Source entry) X-10/? X-?

That last part's what I'm hung up on. The decision relies entirely on what I get after or during Theurge. Of course, I want to max our Wizard casting to at least 17, once again.

Consider replacing some or all of those Archmage levels with Paragnostic Apostle.

Bamboo Spirit Folk get Trackless Step, and you can use Sanctum Spell for early qualification and go Archivist 1/ Wizard 2/ Mystic Theurge 7/ Arcane Hierophant 10.

[thethird]

On the bamboo spirit folk build, it is a lot of fun but I would recommend archivist 2 and wizard 1, getting an animal companion (as per the UA ACF) so companion familiar actually advances it. I would also recommend domain wizard, with any domain you want.