[question answered]

[Ashtagon]

[question answered]

[ryu]

By the book, they are 2 lb and 5 gp, and last forever.

House rule:

The pouch itself is assumed to be 1/4 of that weight, and each spell that uses spell components is assumed to require 1 ounce of materials. That means a standard pouch is good for 24 spells. When you've cast 24 spells with that pouch, buy a new pouch. If you find yourself able to loot an alchemist's lab or similar, you can reload for free.

Rather than track specific components for specific spells, assume that for a DC 10 Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana) check, you somehow had the prescience to pack your pouch appropriately. Fail the check, and you can try again next round. The spell is not cast, but the action is spent fumbling around in your spell component pouch ineffectively. You can take 10 on this check in non-threatening situations (ie. not in combat), and you can take 20.

I'm assuming the caster is permitted to buy multiple pouches?

[ryu]

Of course.

Of course you realize that the first instinct of any high-level caster is going to be stacking 10-100 of them at any given time depending on how properly paranoid they are right?

[hymer]

I'm not sure what the purpose of this house rule is. Could you elaborate?

[Gnome Alone]

By the book, they are 2 lb and 5 gp, and last forever.

Wow, to think I clicked on yon thread here with the intention of saying:

Rule #1 - Buy spell component pouch
Rule #2 - Never mention spell component pouch again

...only to find out that these are just about the actual rules. Wow.

Uh, about the house-rule, I'd say it seems pretty reasonable but is also kind of in "let's track how much we eat and eliminate" territory.

[Cruiser1]

The way I handle spell component pouches is strictly by RAW, but with a bit of fluff to explain why they work that way:

A spell component pouch is really a small notebook of slate slabs, upon which are drawn the components for whatever spells you want to cast. For example, Gaseous Form uses a drawing of a wisp of smoke, instead of actual smoke which would be hard to fit or keep in a small pouch. Retrieving a component is actually flipping the notebook to the right page, and touching it while casting the spell. The fact that non-expensive spell components are actually drawings explains why every spell component pouch has the same weight and cost, why it can always cover every spell (you can easily add your own drawings for new spells you acquire), why spell component pouches never run out, and why a sunder attack destroys the entire pouch instead of potentially sparing or spilling out certain components.

[With a box]

Can i assume there is some body part of Mystra for resurrection or ice assassin or simulacrum? :smallsmile:
And get the component before use to use it later in combat without find it from in pouch?

[Raezeman]

the way one of my DMs uses spell component pouches is that when you buy one, it contains the components for the spells you know at that point. So when you learn a new spell with a material component, you can't use it until you buy a new pouch (with of course the exception of Eschew Materials or the 'summon component' spell, or similar). Also, if the component is something simple that can be easily found elsewhere, you don't have to buy it (example in my case: broken egg shells for the spell 'arcane turmoil')
i like this rule. It makes sense to me.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I don't think the houserule does much beyond adding some bookkeeping. The spellcraft check quickly becomes irrelevant, the limited number of uses just means you buy them in bulk.

If someone wants to roleplay filling their component pouch they can. You don't need rules for that.
If it's intended to limit spellcasters in some way it doesn't succeed since it doesn't really do anything.

I usually assume that any competent spellcaster takes care of his non-costly components the same way a fighter keeps his sword and armor serviced without keeping track of his rags and weapon oil purchases. The only time a component pouch matters if you don't have one/can't reach it for whatever reason. Costly components need to be purchased seperately, of course.

[aleucard]

This does basically nothing to impact a wizard in any meaningful way aside from adding an additional limitation on random spells. The cost of a SCP (wow that brings up some interesting conotations) is too low to meaningfully impact the use of the useful spells, and the less useful spells are hammered enough already.

If you want to use the material components as a control method for Wizard power, then you'll need to adjust how material components work across the board, either to make it a pay-to-play tax or make it an optional boost a la Metamagic Components, possibly mix the two and apply as it suits the situation (read: spell). Would need to scratch the Eschew Material Components feat for it to work properly, though, or at least limit the spell level that it can affect (maybe 1/3-1/4 CL?). Depending on if you're trying to bring down ALL casters, make this only apply to higher-tier ones like Wizard or Druid.

[ryu]

This does basically nothing to impact a wizard in any meaningful way aside from adding an additional limitation on random spells. The cost of a SCP (wow that brings up some interesting conotations) is too low to meaningfully impact the use of the useful spells, and the less useful spells are hammered enough already.

If you want to use the material components as a control method for Wizard power, then you'll need to adjust how material components work across the board, either to make it a pay-to-play tax or make it an optional boost a la Metamagic Components, possibly mix the two and apply as it suits the situation (read: spell). Would need to scratch the Eschew Material Components feat for it to work properly, though, or at least limit the spell level that it can affect (maybe 1/3-1/4 CL?). Depending on if you're trying to bring down ALL casters, make this only apply to higher-tier ones like Wizard or Druid.

We all know the foundation would immediately jump on any they found. It would be inevitable. Also any wizards, clerics, druids, magical characters in general, and the new instances of entirely subjective physics.

[Elderand]

If you want to use the material components as a control method for Wizard power, then you'll need to adjust how material components work across the board, either to make it a pay-to-play tax or make it an optional boost a la Metamagic Components, possibly mix the two and apply as it suits the situation (read: spell). Would need to scratch the Eschew Material Components feat for it to work properly, though, or at least limit the spell level that it can affect (maybe 1/3-1/4 CL?). Depending on if you're trying to bring down ALL casters, make this only apply to higher-tier ones like Wizard or Druid.

Nowhere was it mentionned by the OP as a method for controling wizard power, as far as I can tell it's just there to eliminate some of the weirdness of using strict raw where a pouch contain an infinite number of components while weighting only 5 pounds and not being an extradimensionnal space.

As a way to align fluff and crunch I like that houserule.

[ryu]

Nowhere was it mentionned by the OP as a method for controling wizard power, as far as I can tell it's just there to eliminate some of the weirdness of using strict raw where a pouch contain an infinite number of components while weighting only 5 pounds and not being an extradimensionnal space.

As a way to align fluff and crunch I like that houserule.

Pretty sure it was 2 pounds. They cost five gold though.

[Firest Kathon]

I've made a similar rules suggestion in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17562650&postcount=16).

[prufock]

By the book, they are 2 lb and 5 gp, and last forever.

House rule:

The pouch itself is assumed to be 1/4 of that weight, and each spell that uses spell components is assumed to require 1 ounce of materials. That means a standard pouch is good for 24 spells. When you've cast 24 spells with that pouch, buy a new pouch. If you find yourself able to loot an alchemist's lab or similar, you can reload for free.

This part is okay, if not all that meaningful. Assuming you cast maybe 12 spells a day, you're just applying a bi-daily tax to the wizard. Which is fine, but it's not going to change anything except poke slightly at his WBL.


Rather than track specific components for specific spells, assume that for a DC 10 Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana) check, you somehow had the prescience to pack your pouch appropriately. Fail the check, and you can try again next round. The spell is not cast, but the action is spent fumbling around in your spell component pouch ineffectively. You can take 10 on this check in non-threatening situations (ie. not in combat), and you can take 20.
This part is just what? DC 10 is laughably easy; a wizard or sorcerer that knows this rule will be unable to fail this check at level 1; with 4 ranks, +3 INT modifier, and Skill Focus. It seems to have no purpose.

You buy a pouch. When you have down time, you fill it with things you need for your spells. The end. What is wrong with this current rule?

[Ashtagon]

Just to clarify: This proposal is aimed more at the verisimilitude crowd. I don't think it is sensible to use spell components as a way to limit arcane power. Too many OP spells don't even need material components.

(Because seriously, if you want to limit arcane power, you need to stop wizards being generalists. And I don't just mean "ban a school or three". With the amount of school drift, it's not too hard to get around that being a meanigful restriction anyway. Something like this (http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=556) might work if ever I finish developing it.)

Personally, I'd rather just replace "cheap" material components with a Harry Potter-style magic wand; Wand costs 5 gp and weighs 2 lb, and is effectively a spell focus that replaces the material component for any spell that would have a "cheap" material component. This is more for those who want components.

Items that are specifically NOT in these spell component pouches:


Anything that costs 1 gp or more.
Anything that is a spell focus for the spell in question.
Anything that weighs more than a trivial amount.
Anything that must be collected from a particular dimension (eg. tuning forks attuned to a specific plane of existence).
Anything that must be collected from a particular person (eg. hair clippings for simulacrum).


Everything else is what I call a "cheap" spell component.

Of these, the first is explicit in RAW. I tend to think the rest are implicit RAI, although rules lawyers will doubtless argue the case.

I have no problem with characters carrying multiple spell component pouches. Similarly, archers can carry multiple quivers, and slingers can carry multiple slingstone bags. The only limit here is encumbrance.

Now yes, DC 10 is laughably easy, considering any wizard will have 4 skill ranks and 16 Intelligence as a baseline (+7 modifier). Perhaps DC 15 would be more appropriate, in order to make the roll meaningful. The intent behind this was never about reducing power though, but about verisimilitude.

I note that in 3.5e, natural 1 is not an automatic fail. The PRD makes no mention of that line though. Is a natural 1 on a PF skill check an automatic fail?

The challenge is how to have material components be a thing that takes mental space, without tracking every cobweb.

[Chronos]

Spell component pouches are a problem only if you assume that the rules describe exactly what's going on in the game world. I've never seen any reason to make that assumption. The rules are a simplified description that approximates what's "really" going on fairly well, but they are still an approximation.

In this case, what's "really" going on is that a spell component pouch contains some fixed number of wisps of spiderweb, pinches of guano, and so on. Casters pack their own pouches based on what spells they expect to be casting and how long they expect to have to go before re-supply, and whenever they have the chance, they replenish what they've depleted. If one wanted the rules to model this exactly, one would have a set price and weight for spiderwebs, guano, etc., and have the spellcaster spend money to buy those items and keep track of them.

However, the cost and weight of such items would be trivially low, and would be more trouble than they're worth. While it would be theoretically possible for a caster to run out of a needed component, if the caster is exercising any prudence, it would be incredibly rare. It is therefore a reasonable approximation for the rules to just say that that never happens, and lose that very small chance, but also lose the cumbersome and annoying tracking of components.

Yes, if taken to an extreme, this can lead to absurdities like smothering the world in chickens, or cloning black dragons from dragonblood ink, or the like. But the proper solution to those is not to say "You can't do that because of the houserule I made concerning component pouches". The proper solution to those is to say "You can't do that because that's stupid, and I'm the DM and I say so".

[Segev]

If one goes with Chronos's interpretation of "what is really going on" (which I actually think is a pretty good depiction), then limiting wizards when the DM wants to is still doable. Divorce ourselves from the mechanics just a little, so that "500 gp of ruby dust" actually means a certain quantity and quality of powdered ruby rather than powdered ruby in any amount and quality for which you paid 500 gp, and it becomes feasible - when the story calls for it - to say, "you're actually having trouble finding bat guano."

"What?" the wizard (and his player) will ask, "How can that be?"

"There just aren't very many bats in the arctic," might be the reply, or, "That's a good question. But the last three caves you've been to took you an hour to scrape together enough for a handful of Fireball spells each. Come to think of it, you don't recall seeing any bats in them at all, and the guano was definitely not fresh..." might be a plot hook.


On the other hand, yes, this means a wizard who was able to buy some "black dragon blood ink" for his spell component pouch could reasonably say he is making a Clone or Simulacrum of that black dragon. Of course, there's no guarantee the dragon is dead or will be grateful for being brought back (if Cloned), nor any expectation that the player would be able to customize the black dragon he gets when he makes his Simulacrum. It could be any age category, as well. Which might mean trying a few times to get the snow sculpture right, come to think of it.

[Psyren]

Fishing a component out of the pouch is so free an action that it barely deserves the name at all. Why wouldn't you simply take 20 every time? 20 * 0 = 0.



Personally, I'd rather just replace "cheap" material components with a Harry Potter-style magic wand; Wand costs 5 gp and weighs 2 lb, and is effectively a spell focus that replaces the material component for any spell that would have a "cheap" material component. This is more for those who want components.

PF does this if you choose a wand as your bonded object. You can even force Wizards in your games to go that route for more of an HP feel. Like Harry et al., they can use magic without one, but doing so is very difficult for complex spells.



Items that are specifically NOT in these spell component pouches:


Anything that costs 1 gp or more.
Anything that is a spell focus for the spell in question.
Anything that weighs more than a trivial amount.
Anything that must be collected from a particular dimension (eg. tuning forks attuned to a specific plane of existence).
Anything that must be collected from a particular person (eg. hair clippings for simulacrum).


Everything else is what I call a "cheap" spell component.

Of these, the first is explicit in RAW. I tend to think the rest are implicit RAI, although rules lawyers will doubtless argue the case.

This is a fine fix to me. Just don't forget to bake the last three into Eschew Materials as well so that people don't use that to get around it.


I note that in 3.5e, natural 1 is not an automatic fail. The PRD makes no mention of that line though. Is a natural 1 on a PF skill check an automatic fail?

No, PF is identical to 3.5 in this regard.

[prufock]

Just to clarify: This proposal is aimed more at the verisimilitude crowd.
A matter of taste I guess, but I'm not seeing what the mechanical rule adds to the spell component pouch in this regard. As a spellcaster you walk around with a pouch full of stuff. You know what spells you can cast and what components are necessary, so in your downtime you seek out those components (foraging, purchasing in towns, crafting if necessary) and put them in your pouch. I don't see how adding extra bookkeeping improves the narrative. The mechanical rule adds nothing to the game, and doesn't really add anything to the realism, since now whether you have an item is based on a random roll.


Personally, I'd rather just replace "cheap" material components with a Harry Potter-style magic wand; Wand costs 5 gp and weighs 2 lb, and is effectively a spell focus that replaces the material component for any spell that would have a "cheap" material component. This is more for those who want components.
So why don't you do this instead of messing with spell component pouches? You are basically creating an implement which works the same as an arcane focus.


Items that are specifically NOT in these spell component pouches:


Anything that costs 1 gp or more.
Anything that is a spell focus for the spell in question.
Anything that weighs more than a trivial amount.
Anything that must be collected from a particular dimension (eg. tuning forks attuned to a specific plane of existence).
Anything that must be collected from a particular person (eg. hair clippings for simulacrum).

I have no problem with this list, and would do much the same thing. Arcane focus is different than a component, and very specific components should involve extra work and possibly side quests.

[Azraile]

My take on spell pouches is that they are magical item, able to materialize any item that cost 1gp or less as a free action.

[Alex12]

My take on spell pouches is that they are magical item, able to materialize any item that cost 1gp or less as a free action.

Obviously, what actually happens is that the pouch contains a miniaturized troll who has been taught to cast a single first-level spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money) as an at-will spell like ability, and then Mindraped into doing so on command for anyone who uses it.

[Piggy Knowles]

I just posted this in another thread, but...


I've actually been considering instituting the following houserule in my own games:

Spell components with spells work as described. If you don't have a spell component pouch and you want to cast fireball, you need to start scavenging some bat guano. However, the spell component pouch is an EXCEPTION to this rule. Spell component pouches are filled with a magically enhanced something (call it mana or fairy dust or I don't know, I haven't figured out the fluff of this yet), which acts as a substitute for spell components. So, your spell component pouch isn't somehow filled with an infinite quantity of tiny tarts and bat guano and spiderwebs that somehow stay intact despite being shoved into a belt pouch; it's instead filled with magic fairy dust, and a pinch of that fairy dust acts in place of standard spell components.

Unfortunately, this only works for fairly inconsequential spell components. For spells with more advanced components, the dust must be mixed with the dust of ground gemstones, of an approximate value to the substituted component. Many wizards keep their wealth in ground gemstones so that they can freely substitute, say, a pinch of diamond dust for that pearl the spell would otherwise require.

There is no substitute for unique items, however; a simulacrum still requires a bit of the target you are simulating, for example, and apocalypse from the sky requires an artifact that no amount of diamond dust will be able to imitate.

Basically, the idea is to get rid of the stupidity of the infinite spell component pouch with something that actually makes sense, while still keeping spell components around for those who like their flavor, and letting players more or less directly sub in their wealth for valuable material components.

[Chronos]

I'm not sure about replacing expensive components. Those are usually attached to powerful-enough spells that the bookkeeping isn't so onerous any more, and it's a balance factor (albeit a small one) to force a spellcaster to decide in advance whether a given bit of wealth is going to be in diamonds, rubies, or incense.