Stress of a new DM

[Crimson Wolf]

Okay so first off hello I am new to the forums and such so please excuse me if I seem a bit new to this x.X Now that is done and out of the way I wanted to ask a few things. Firstly I am making a D&D 3.5 campaign with a lot of elements from pathfinder combining a few things just to make things a bit more fun, roll smooth, and just easier for my brain to comprehend right now. That being said I already am having a few problems. First and foremost, out of my small group (I'm DM/having a single PC, and my two brothers playing plus a third friend) and one of them is already, before game is even fully made, fighting me and butting heads on a lot of things I am implementing and absolutely REFUSING to go along with it. Not even bad ideas are being fought.

I just don't get how a game not even MADE yet can have such absolute bs before it even starts with a PC who just will not listen, how on earth can I fix this? Keep in mind I bought a campaign cartographer program to make us a map, even print out maps for everyone and have it all cool and old world looking. Been implementing some homebrew content to spice things up (nothing immersion breaking just some fun stuff), allowing shapechanger/were templates or the use of higher power options (like having a magical prosthetic arm with spell slots, every level is near or max hit die instead of a complete random). Now I will still be keeping things very challenging but not to the point of being a chore or a life or death situation every time.

It is mainly inspired by a multitude of games I play but taking a huge nod to a old game called Dark Alliance 2 with things like plane travel via perma portals, hidden factions, fun and challenging battles with a good number of enemies, and the biggest being that the PC's are meant to be hero's, not above average joes but actual hero's that are set above the rest. But it seems like no matter what it is just this on player who fights me tooth and nail but unfortunately due to little to no one else, I can't just say "you know what no just don't bother playing" because that would kill the game completely. So what on earth am I to do with this? :/

[HammeredWharf]

Can't really tell without a more detailed description of your quarrels. For all we know, the player may be right. Generally, using a lot of house rules and homebrew in your first D&D campaign is something I'd advise against.

In the end, a sensible person recognises the effort a DM has to put in a campaign and the fact that rules wise, the DM's word is the law. However, being a good DM also requires the ability to listen to your players and find out what they want from the game. After all, your primary objective is making a game everyone will enjoy. That includes the player who currently disagrees with you. Assuming both of you are sensible people, settling this matter in a way that makes him happy and doesn't really matter to you is better than going full "I AM THE RULE 0".

Of course, it's possible the problem player is simply not sensible and would be a PITA no matter what, but that's another matter entirely.

[Crimson Wolf]

Well the rules so far he has fought me on are as following. Because the campaign will be tough at some points needing a somewhat heroic power instead of ur average joe pc I stated on hit die rules to reroll if you have less than half that die on your roll for the hp gain at level. The next thing he fought me on was more a suggestion than a rule, on the implementation of looking at different side templates that can be added to make his character a little stronger (I stated to everyone I fully welcome were creatures, stronger races, body modifications with at least a back story to them) and resisted that advice. Thirdly was more the one that really upset which was how I stated that yes I may be using a lot of things from pathfinder BUT the number one thing, you may use a pathfinder class but your skill points are absolutely still going with the D&D skill point system (as in gaining points per level and distributing them instead of the whole click a skill and you gain multiple points per click). Reason being now yes I did what pathfinder had which was combine hide/move silently because it doesn't take too much on my part to modify some stuff, but he refuses to use it unless it is the full pathfinder (with tons of skills combined into a large skill making less groups to train) because it would take far too much for me as a first timer to really change every little detail for that skill system.

[HammeredWharf]

Sorry to say this, but it sounds like your problem player may be right. Using a mix of 3.5 and Pathfinder with some extra DM-adjusted templates and homebrew on top sounds like a really bad idea if you're new. You probably have a vision of what the campaign would be like, but keeping things simple at start is better. Both D&D and Pathfinder offer a huge amount of rules that should be more than enough for your first game. For example, Pathfinder has the mythic rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic) for more powerful characters that you could use instead of houseruling templates and bonus HP..

[Crimson Wolf]

Well I do agree that some things were confusing at first I have put a ton of work into making it fit in. His main gripe was mainly he preferred the randomness of a dice roll for health (I just mainly am worried on a early death for the pc's) but I guess I can let that HD rule go. Possibly scale back the difficulty so it isn't as hard starting off for the players. As for homebrew, mainly it is adding one class, a few items, and item materials which all players so far like the sounds of. Maybe to solve the SP system problem I can have him use pathfinder, anything that buffs a certain skill (if it is in a certain group) is buff that group skill but not make it broken (like buffing multiple parts of that one skill to make it insane, instead it would need to buff the group as a whole).

[weckar]

Keep in mind: character death is not a bad thing. As a player, nothing is worse than being coddled.

[Crimson Wolf]

But surviving a critical fail swim check in a swimming pool is hilarious xD (personal joke with me and a friend)

[Bloodgruve]

Well the rules so far he has fought me on are as following. Because the campaign will be tough at some points needing a somewhat heroic power instead of ur average joe pc I stated on hit die rules to reroll if you have less than half that die on your roll for the hp gain at level. The next thing he fought me on was more a suggestion than a rule, on the implementation of looking at different side templates that can be added to make his character a little stronger (I stated to everyone I fully welcome were creatures, stronger races, body modifications with at least a back story to them) and resisted that advice. Thirdly was more the one that really upset which was how I stated that yes I may be using a lot of things from pathfinder BUT the number one thing, you may use a pathfinder class but your skill points are absolutely still going with the D&D skill point system (as in gaining points per level and distributing them instead of the whole click a skill and you gain multiple points per click). Reason being now yes I did what pathfinder had which was combine hide/move silently because it doesn't take too much on my part to modify some stuff, but he refuses to use it unless it is the full pathfinder (with tons of skills combined into a large skill making less groups to train) because it would take far too much for me as a first timer to really change every little detail for that skill system.

A couple suggestions, if you are a first time DM I would suggest working with one system or the other TBH. It will save you a lot of headache. Even though it looks like it makes sense, some of the changes can be far reaching. Class skills between the two games for example CA 3.5 Ninja vs PF Ninja, PF Ninja loses like 5 skill points per level if used in a 3.5 game compared to its CA Ninja counterpart. CA Ninja has a a lot more skill points then PF Ninja in a PF game. Classes, even though they can be ported between games are imbalanced when put together without changing them. There are other problems that can arise also. Pick one system an roll with it. Also, I'd suggest sticking to RAW or at least RAI on your first game. This should cut off the arguments, nothing brings them on more then homebrew and mixing systems. Lastly, I think your player is looking for a system of rules that he can rely on without question, and also simply being argumentative. I'd jump at the chance for some of this as a player but I'd need my DM to be experienced before I did so. I've DM'd for a good while now and homebrew n system mixing has bit me in the past, I could probably handle it now with more experience but for the sake of ease and fun stick with one system for a bit.

If you insist on mixing systems PF classes generally have more class abilities and gain them more frequently. They also have less skill points due to the consolidation of skills. You'll have to customize each class the players want and probably adjust your NPC's as well. All of my games the players receive average HP every level w/o rolling.

PF does have Adventure Paths which may be a good way to start your DM career, it will show you how things work before you take on your own big campaign. I wish I would have done this when I started, I feel me and my players would have had a much better time, instead they felt the pains of my learning curve ;)

GL
Blood~

[Bloodgruve]

But surviving a critical fail swim check in a swimming pool is hilarious xD (personal joke with me and a friend)

Skill checks can never critically succeed or fail. Otherwise players could 'jump to the moon' on a natural 20...

[Darth Paul]

Agree with Weckar completely. If there's no penalty for failure, then what is success worth anyway?

Q: Unless I misread your post, it sounds like you are both DM and a PC at the same time? How does that work? I can see some conflict potential right there. Then again, I accept I may have misunderstood and you were just saying you have been a PC before and this is your first try at DMing.

[Demonic Spoon]

I will echo that if you are new to DMing, trying to homebrew too much is not a great idea. The problem with your homebrewing is that you don't seem to be doing it in the context of 3.5. Your homebrew should sit alongside existing stuff or replace existing stuff in a small way, but you're fundamentally altering a lot of stuff.


Because the campaign will be tough at some points needing a somewhat heroic power instead of ur average joe pc I stated on hit die rules to reroll if you have less than half that die on your roll for the hp gain at level.


Your "average joe PC" does tend to get pretty heroic past level 3-4 or so. Rapidly scaling up hitpoint totals isn't really the way to do that. If you want to remove the randomness, then have them take the average value of the dice roll.


The next thing he fought me on was more a suggestion than a rule, on the implementation of looking at different side templates that can be added to make his character a little stronger (I stated to everyone I fully welcome were creatures, stronger races, body modifications with at least a back story to them) and resisted that advice.

This is also already a thing in D&D 3.5. However, I suspect when you talk about this you mean that they aren't respecting level adjustment rules, which is just going to lead to party balance issues when someone finds the most powerful template or monster race.

Thirdly was more the one that really upset which was how I stated that yes I may be using a lot of things from pathfinder BUT the number one thing, you may use a pathfinder class but your skill points are absolutely still going with the D&D skill point system (as in gaining points per level and distributing them instead of the whole click a skill and you gain multiple points per click). Reason being now yes I did what pathfinder had which was combine hide/move silently because it doesn't take too much on my part to modify some stuff, but he refuses to use it unless it is the full pathfinder (with tons of skills combined into a large skill making less groups to train) because it would take far too much for me as a first timer to really change every little detail for that skill system.

I don't know a whole ton about pathfinder, but I would be extremely cautious in changing core game mechanics like skills by swapping them out from a different system.

[Crimson Wolf]

Yeah mistyped mean I have pc's in the past before lol. I have been in several games, usually as long as said brew isn't game breaking, op, or outright foolish it went smoothly, as for the joke I made it was meant as a joke, told my friend if he ever rolled a 1 in a swimming pool a shark would appear and snatch a limb off xD I guess what I am just trying to do to put it in simplest terms is have something with a lot of features that on paper seem easy to handle, and give my friends a bit more options to play so they can enjoy themselves.

[jedipotter]

I might see where the problem is.....

You are not a Game Designer.

Your just a gamer. Pick a game and play it. Endless rule changes, modifications, alterations and so on will just confuse and drive everyone crazy.

[rg9000]

My recommendation: have the problem player play as the secret villain. He could be a double agent, allowing him to partially design dungeons, have a stronger character, and fight everyone else.

[Crake]

Unless you know how were creatures and ECL interact together (something that takes many people a while to wrap around their head) you might want to instead go with shifters (they can be found in monster manual 3) for the "were creature" feel, but without any ECL bump. Because giving someone a were-creature template at level 1 (assuming that's what level you're starting at) can be not great. Also, I'm personally also an advocate for no RNG in character creation, but instead of letting them re-roll if their HP is below average, why not just use the average +0.5 option for hp? That way nobody can complain because someone got to reroll a 1 and got a 12 instead. Also, allowing high powered options at character creation "because it was in their backstory" is a bad idea. If they want something like that, make them pick up a feat like ancestral relic or item familiar, then they can start with a useless piece of junk, and as they gather gear and pump it into the item, it gets stronger, but without breaking their WBL


Yeah mistyped mean I have pc's in the past before lol. I have been in several games, usually as long as said brew isn't game breaking, op, or outright foolish it went smoothly, as for the joke I made it was meant as a joke, told my friend if he ever rolled a 1 in a swimming pool a shark would appear and snatch a limb off xD I guess what I am just trying to do to put it in simplest terms is have something with a lot of features that on paper seem easy to handle, and give my friends a bit more options to play so they can enjoy themselves.

Giving players everything they want at character creation just serves to give them some novelty that they'll soon get bored of. There's nothing like a character you've built up from level 1 with nothing, and earned everything you have. As others have said, being coddled as a player sucks, and not just with character death, with player options as well.

[Harlot]

Judging from your response to suggestions in this thread, you seem very set on your ideas - 'my way or the highway, how do I make the player realise, that I am the boss and my ideas are brilliant?'

TBH: Having an newbie DM whose focus is on the story/world/campaign rather than following any set of rules/going by the RAW could drive anyone crazy. I know from experience (sadly my current DM is a 'I make up rules as I go kinda guy') that your approach will either result in the game stopping constantly or all together due to arguments. As a player, the game gets annoying because you simply cannot trust the basic rules of the game anymore. As a player you're screwed in a bad way, because as the rules are bent to the DM's whim, making them hard to navigate, and although we all love wild and crazy stuff, we also need to know how to win and when to run. In mixed crazy templa
ted homebrewed systems, that is almost impossible unless the DM is experienced and the players likewise, and they all agree on the made-up rules. You are not there yet.

I personally believe (and I think your problematic player does too) that the rules are there for a very good reason, they have been tried and tested and BALANCED by experts - or at least very experienced DMs - and messing with them is risky busines. You have to know what you're doing. Being a newbie, mixing D&D and Pathfinder, adding some homebrew and then twisting the rules to suit the campaign is not risky. Its downright catastrophic - it's bound to end in disaster. What you are trying to pull off is really hard even for experienced DM's. The player has every right to be concerned. With the level of arguing even before the campaign starts I cannot imagine how bad it it will be when the gaming actually starts!

You ask for help on dealing with the player. I think you should rather deal with your group as such:

The whole point is for all to have a good time. You should sit down with your players, discuss possiblilities and agree on ONE system you ALL want to use. If you must, write down some basic house rules. THEN you design your campaign based on whatever compromise you ALL agree on, Once you have an agreement, don't bend the rules and don't break them. Make a list of all of the cool-awesome ideas you have. Keep any idea that'll work within the group compromise. Scrap everything else. COMPROMISE.

Advice: Stick to one system. Stick to RAW in whatever system you choose. Allow templates if its important to any player - if its really only important to the DM (you) because they're cool, don't use them. If you must use homebrew, limit it to homebrewed monsters. Not PC's. Not NPCs. Not items, Not spells, skills or feats. You risk unbalancing the game otherwise.

And when this harmonic happy group has played for some time, and everything works out beautifully, sit down again, revise houserules, mix systems and go homebrew crazy. By agreement.

(OH - and drop the NPC. You'll have more than enough on your plate as a DM. Don't run a character as well. It may end in railroading and/ or add even more conflicts)

[Brookshw]

I personally believe (and I think your problematic player does too) that the rules are there for a very good reason, they have been tried and tested and BALANCED by experts - or at least very experienced DMs - and messing with them is risky busines.

Ah yes, the brilliant minds behind drown healing and damp shirts protecting people from a nice lava bath. They are as fallible as the rest of us I assure you.

That said, as you and others pointed out, changes to rules should be considered carefully. What has been proposed isn't necessarily outlandish, but if the players aren't interested then its important to understand why, what is it they want from the game?

Good point about the npc.

[jjcrpntr]

As a newer DM, I'd echo what most everyone has said. Pick one system and run with it. I'd also suggest not altering much to start off with. In my game I started off with most of the game running on the RAW. There are a few things I've changed but all smaller stuff until I got more comfortable with the rules. Until you are comfortable with things I'd suggest sticking as close to raw as possible to avoid confusion.

[Peelee]

Yeah mistyped mean I have pc's in the past before lol. I have been in several games, usually as long as said brew isn't game breaking, op, or outright foolish it went smoothly, as for the joke I made it was meant as a joke, told my friend if he ever rolled a 1 in a swimming pool a shark would appear and snatch a limb off xD I guess what I am just trying to do to put it in simplest terms is have something with a lot of features that on paper seem easy to handle, and give my friends a bit more options to play so they can enjoy themselves.

To restate what a lot of people have said in a slightly different way...

I played for a bit before I tried my hand at DMing, mostly because of necessity (my two friends who loved to DM got burned out for a bit). I promise you, it is a very different experience. From session start to session end, the game relies on you nonstop just to run as a functional game. It's a lot of work, and (from my experience) it is a lot more work than it first appears, and it's very easy to be overwhelmed, which kills the campaign. I'd strongly recommend you stick to a single system and keep houserules to a minimum.

All that said, the only thing that matters is for everyone to have fun. If following the suggestions everyone is offering means you won't have fun as a DM, I'd recommend seeing if someone else wants to try to run a game that you play in. It's a pain sometimes, but trust me on this, it sucks a lot to get strongly invested in a game that you've spent a lot of time building up because it turns out there was a lot more that could go wrong than you initially thought.

[Harlot]

Ah yes, the brilliant minds behind drown healing and damp shirts protecting people from a nice lava bath. They are as fallible as the rest of us I assure you.


Point taken :-)

Some rules are still better than random rules though. But it seems we are all in agreement. Except maybe for the OP ...