[FR] To carve out your own Empire... [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Firechanter

2014-06-16, 12:57 PM

This thread is meant to explore the possibilities of creating an Empire in "present-day" Faerun. Where by "present" I mean the setting of 3E FR or a few years after the official timeline; ofc that spellplage nonsense does never happen.

To explain how I came to that idea:
The FR, like most Fantasy settings, take place in an era of decline or stagnation at a rather low point in history; you keep hearing about "Great Empires of Ancient Days", like Netheril, Illefarn etc., but that was thousands of years ago, and nowadays there are only smalltime countries dabbling around in their own backyards.

Since this is such a common staple of Fantasy, I've been wondering what it would be like to play in the days an actual, powerful Empire. I've also written up a homebrew setting for that purpose, a custom world during the heyday of a long-lasting, stable Byzantine-style Empire, powerful bulwark against the forces of Evil threatening the civilized lands. The PCs would have the option to climb the ranks of the Empire, and even become Tetrarchs (Co-Emperors) themselves.

So far, so good. But then I had an idea for yet another game type. Why not devise a campaign that allows a group of power-conscious PCs to create an Empire of their own? Cuz I figure, starting something from scratch out of your own devices would feel more rewarding than to just keep doing the same thing others have done for a thousand years.

And from there it was just a small step to think about pulling that off in the Forgotten Realms, a setting that my fellow players know and like a lot. And that would be the main advantage; everyone has a fairly good idea of the world (at least Faerun), gathering info is easy due to plentiful sources, and it would be easier for everyone to be on the same page.

--

So that was a terribly long preface. The point is, I'm looking at the map (the poster one that goes from Icewind Dale to Estagund), and I need to find a good starting point. I.e. a place where the players may reasonably acquire a solid power base to fuel their expansionist ambitions.
And the whole campaign should also have a natural end point, i.e. when the new-founded Empire would be saturated and have solid natural borders for external stability. (How _internal_ stability can be achieved when forging together a wild mix of cultures, that will be left to the devices of the players.)

Think Big!

Of course, Rome was not built in a day, and so this campaign would also be expected to last a very long time. The players would start as regular adventurers around 4th level, might acquire their first base of power around level 9, and then it should go on all the way until level 20, with a lot of endgame content at MaxLevel.
I don't want to use Epic levels, however... these are a mess. But since official FR Epic NPCs are also terribly badly written, I don't think these should be a problem even in direct conflict. Or I might rewrite them with more reasonable stats, make The Simbul an Ultimate Magus or somesuch.

Anyway, this could also take a very long time ingame, so I'd expect the PCs to find ways to extend their lifespans indefinitely. (I have nixed age modifiers anyway, so it's not like Human Mundanes would necessarily get the short end of the stick in this game.)

Also, how they actually would go about expanding their sphere of influence, that would be pretty much left to the players. They could forge alliances, coerce weaker territories into vassaldom, raise armies and wage wars of conquest, or work through intrigue and subterfuge... anything goes, I suppose.

So much for starters. What do you think of this whole scheme? Any specific ideas what should be implemented? What would make a good starting point? Looking forward to your input!

Honest Tiefling

2014-06-16, 05:11 PM

I would honestly cheat and just tell the players themselves to pick what region they want to start in/conquer. Sure, some are worse then others, but why not cut out some work and have THEM figure that out for you? Also, they might want to have a certain religion or race that works better in certain regions.

Firechanter

2014-06-16, 07:23 PM

So let me put it that way, if you were a player in such a campaign, what starting point would you pick, and what regions would you try to incorporate into your Empire?

Irk

2014-06-16, 09:13 PM

Think Big!

Always.

So let me put it that way, if you were a player in such a campaign, what starting point would you pick, and what regions would you try to incorporate into your Empire?
I would try to raise a new continent from the sea. Establish myself as a naval power. I think I'd have a lot of fun with that, and the quest just to discover the spell (some variation of the Netherese Move Mountain?) could be a lot of fun. Also it feels more like real empire building if I go after a navy, because an army would just be composed of magical beasts and the like, which isn't bad, but I'd prefer to have ships with spell turrets than a battalion of flying wizards. I could find a way to cloak my ships, have them fly S.H.I.E.L.D. style. I've always wanted to try this kind of thing.

EDIT: As for input, it would be difficult to manage, but with a clear goal in mind, I think it would make for a fantastically exciting and png-range game, giving the players the opportunity to roleplay and optimize numerous facets of their empire.

jedipotter

2014-06-16, 09:50 PM

So let me put it that way, if you were a player in such a campaign, what starting point would you pick, and what regions would you try to incorporate into your Empire?

You could pick:

1. The Empire of Shadow. The shadovar in Aanrouch strike out and conquer the Heartlands to make, New Netheril....

2. Empire of Cromyr. The dales, moonsea and Sembia all under the purple dragon.

3. The North Empire. Waterdeep takes over the whole North.

4. Mularond. They wake up, and take over the world....or at least the Sea of Fallen Stars

5. Thay. They take over....

Alleran

2014-06-16, 11:00 PM

So let me put it that way, if you were a player in such a campaign, what starting point would you pick, and what regions would you try to incorporate into your Empire?
The Border Kingdoms.

It's almost literally custom-built for this sort of thing.

Slipperychicken

2014-06-16, 11:36 PM

So much for starters. What do you think of this whole scheme? Any specific ideas what should be implemented? What would make a good starting point? Looking forward to your input!

I would probably just run a game like this in ACKS, since it's a system designed around this sort of play. It gets a few big things:

Lower magic and power scaling, and all the consequences thereof are accounted for in the economic and political structure. No need to wonder how fortifications would have been developed to deal with winged elves, teleporting wizards, and druids calling down miles of snow.
Way less cheese. You don't need to worry so much about people Mindraping all world leaders, starting the Shadowpocalypse, or founding the Tippyverse.
A tight, coherent economic system which functions at all levels of play, from 0th level nobodies to the greatest emperors. And it makes sense even when magic items are involved.
Well-written rules for founding, governing, and expanding several types of domains (including churches, merchant operations, thieves' guilds, and others), which tie into the economic system.
Actual rules for running large-scale battles and wars.
Rules for recruiting and maintaining henchmen, mercenaries, soldiers, and determining their morale both in combat and out.
Lower-level minions are still important in combat, meaning that high-level characters don't completely monopolize the battlefield.

EDIT: The reasons I say this are because a) ACKS is awesome, and b) because 3.X largely lacks the rules to make this work.

ngilop

2014-06-16, 11:57 PM

I second the super awesome idea of mulhorand but I love ancient Egypt so I am a bit biased.

there are a lot of places where you could start a base of operations and create your empire..

I suggest getting darkhold set up as your point of origin

Coidzor

2014-06-17, 01:13 AM

So the key factors as I see them are either A. wilderness inhabited by either barbarians or monsters that can be pacified in order to build prestige with the other civilized powers in the region in order to win them over towards (re)unification or B. neighbors weak enough to conquer without drawing the Harpers/Zhentarim/Elminster down your throat.

Having a pretext for a casus belli to either take the abandoned/wild/overrun/rogue territory would likely help with avoiding getting a Simbul/Elminster/Blackstaff to the face. As would making territories into protectorates and the like without straight-up annexing them. Taking wilderness, or at least poorly settled lands, that's either arable or can be rendered arable with the kind of large-scale canals and other public works that powerful magic can easily supply seems like it would be important as well, and should help with both motivation and morale as well as later stability.

After a certain point though, it seems like you'd need to create some kind of distraction for the Harpers & Zhentarim so that they'd leave you alone as you actually made the transition from unifying kingdom and regional power to budding empire and power on the continental scale rather than get destabilized by either/both into being just as ineffectual as the other nations of Faerun.

That or start on one of the other continents in FR and just invade FR like the Seanchan, potentially establishing footholds in monstrous regions and exterminating most of the monsters there and driving the rest out into neighboring civilized lands to destabilize them in order to have a pretext to lend them military aid/annex them/make them protectorates. Actually, making civilized lands into protectorates and the like whenever possible seems to be a good move in general, at least to start with.

Geographically, I could see something spanning from the Spine of the World in the North(maybe also grabbing Icewind Dale at least nominally) all the way South to the Shining Sea and bordered on the West by the Trackless Sea/Sea of Swords, and with Anauroch and that string of mountain ranges running south separating it from Cormyr, Turmish, and the Border Kingdoms on the East.

I could also see a curve from the Border Kingdoms, out along the Shaar and Eastern Shaar up to the Plains of Purple Dust. Though the geographical border between the Border Kingdoms and Calimshan doesn't seem to be that strong, so either of these first two could spill into the other, I think, though it would be sort of an L shape for a bit.

And the Endless Wastes are *technically* grasslands from what I've been able to glean from maps on the subject of Faerunian geography, though population would be a problem more than anything. Doublechecking the maps of Toril I can find seems to indicate that the Endless Wastes abut upon The Hordelands(AKA Taan) which then immediately border Kara-Tur to their east. So that may offer some room for geographical expansion or form a stiff geographical border, I can't tell right now.

Or something involving taking Thay, Aglarond, Damara, Impiltur, and that general vicinity, going down through Mulhorand and then on to Unther, Cressentia, and on to Turmish; though with that much control of the inland sea there, one could take the islands in the middle and potentially move on to Sembia, Cormyr, and up into Cormanthor while also having room to expand south to take The Shaar and Eastern Shaar.

Down in Chult and on that peninsula there's a lot of room for potential expansion either through taking the jungle or taking the plains, I suppose.

Bullet06320

2014-06-17, 01:34 AM

The Border Kingdoms.

It's almost literally custom-built for this sort of thing.

Power of Faerun touches on this, has a section devoted specifically to The Border Kingdoms

Chult, is wide open, only a few outposts there and "less civilized races"

Maztica is another, Sembia has already started working on that

Sian

2014-06-17, 01:52 AM

Mulhorand, if you want to pump a ancient egyptian empire

Chessenta, which by and large is just as stupidly incompetent and open to the game of intrigue as HRE was, and a tradition to promote military heroes.

Chult, if you want to crave out an empire of the wilds with all this includes

Border Kingdoms, where this is a contineous effort by many different persons, and maps are often out of date when sold due to shifting borders between the independent baronies it consist of.

Endless wastes / Plains of Purple Dust ... KHAN!, optionally (in the latter case) with forgotten Imaskari arcane knowledge backing you up

There's certainly room for trying to make an Empire in Faerun ... but you have to get a bit away from the usual areas

Baroknik

2014-06-17, 01:57 AM

I would personally pick:
1) Anauroch. Sure the shades are back, but they are small and the area is large and desolate. They offer a good villain for the campaign, and the trade routes you could set up with the Seord Coast North and the Dalelands is promising!

2) Retake the Spine of the World from the Orcs, it's an ancient Dwarven area (with plenty of precious/hard metal ore) and you could get in good with Waterdeep by getting rid of the orcish threat.

3) The Mere of Dead Men lies on parts of Ancient Illefarn (like most of the Sword Coast). If you could tame the swamps and oust the Lizardmen it is a largely unclaimed area.

4) The Shaar is inhabited by monstrous humanoids and nomadic halflings, it would be relatively easy to take over. It's presence next to Halruaa offers strong magical allies if you play your cards right.

5) Chult offers great treasure, but also complete isolation. A civilization here would have bountiful natural resources, but little contact with the outside world.

I would think about what type of campaign you want to run. Empire building is fun, but it doesn't determine how you go about it! Want lots of intrigue plots? (2) and (3) are probably your best choices, dealing with Neverwinter's anxiety and Dwarves who will claim their birthrights... Want an economic simulation for the society? (1) and (4) offer the best opportunity for trade and a limitation of resources...

MirddinEmris

2014-06-17, 02:16 AM

MirddinEmris

2014-06-17, 02:19 AM

Btw, will this be an IRL game, or an online one? In later case, i would LOVE to join :smallamused:

Baroknik

2014-06-17, 02:27 AM

Coidzor

2014-06-17, 02:30 AM

I would be careful of alignments in the Dales... A certain goddess-bedding wizard has his home there...

Not getting Elminstered or Blackstaffed or Simbuled is, of course, ideal. Especially not all of 'em simultaneously. So noting how much of a berth and where to give the irritable epic level characters is probably also worthwhile.

MirddinEmris

2014-06-17, 02:36 AM

I would be careful of alignments in the Dales... A certain goddess-bedding wizard has his home there...

Well, there is that, yeah. But i don't really think that it's such a big deal unless you want to build Empire Of Blood (But With More Blood Now!). This annoying old man always like to put his nose in other people's buiseness, no matter where they are doing it. Bah :smallmad:

P.S. If they are "good" rulers, then uniting Dalelands, cleansing Cormanthor (while getting many powerful items in the process) and placing a couple of well-aimed kicks to Zhents may be something he is willing to help with.

Jeff the Green

2014-06-17, 02:49 AM

I say start in Maztica. Of course, part of why I say this is because it's a recurring fantasy of mine to give pseudo-Europeans a nasty surprise when pseudo-Aztecs come knocking.

Logistically it's a good plan, though. Particularly if you kick out the foreigners (the Helmites certainly gave reason enough during the Time of Troubles), there will be nothing to warn them when you load up on your boats those giant island turtle things, because they're stylish, and head east to expand your empire.

Gwendol

2014-06-17, 03:00 AM

The trick here is to pick a relatively safe spot to call home, and work from there. Beregost south of Baldur's Gate may serve such a purpose. Get rid of the bandits and monsters in the area, ally with chosen powers, begin to collect taxes and tolls, and start growing the empire.

Diplomacy will be an important skill, as will divination magic.

Alleran

2014-06-17, 03:15 AM

Personally in think that Daleland are the best bet. First of all, they will be easy to conquer/unite, basically being just a small feuds, secondly there are some powers that can help you with that (or be a stepping stone for your ambitions). It's Cormanthor forest, which is full of powerful magic items, artifacts and locations from great Elven Empire. There is a strong presence of Zhentarim also, who will certainly could help you with recources and logistics (many people forget that it's not only EVIL, but also a trade organization) if you could convince them that you could pull of creating you kingdom and willing to strike a deal with them (of course, you always can betray them later, if you wish so).
Trying to create an empire in the Dales is almost certainly going to get Elminster, Cormyr and the Blackstaff breathing down your neck in relatively short order unless you're strongly allied with them anyway, as well as Zhentarim (and where there are Zhentarim, you're going to get Harpers). There are several major powers interested in controlling the Dales.

The Dales are probably one of the worst places to start, actually.

I still stand by the Border Kingdoms. Pick a decent one to start off with, and then expand from there. You're looking at several years of building an empire, but it's certainly within reach.

MirddinEmris

2014-06-17, 03:33 AM

Trying to create an empire in the Dales is almost certainly going to get Elminster, Cormyr and the Blackstaff breathing down your neck in relatively short order unless you're strongly allied with them anyway, as well as Zhentarim (and where there are Zhentarim, you're going to get Harpers). There are several major powers interested in controlling the Dales.

The Dales are probably one of the worst places to start, actually.

I still stand by the Border Kingdoms. Pick a decent one to start off with, and then expand from there. You're looking at several years of building an empire, but it's certainly within reach.

Cormyr isn't really a problem, because they've got more than enough problems on their own (with all that post-war and shades thing). Also, what Blackstaff forgot in Dales (well, forgot more than any other mary-sue-epic-character)?

Harpers aren't really a problem, especially for a mid-to-high level characters with a decent optimization. And Zhents with Elminster can as well be your allies depending on your style, like a said earlier. With several competing powers, you can pose yourself as tie-breaker in their competition and enact your plan.

P.S. Also, isn't the whole Forgotten Realms in this situation (with competing major powers)? It's not like you can find ANY place (that is even remotely interesting) wihtout needing to compete with someone strong or nasty, ot both.

Sian

2014-06-17, 03:59 AM

Also, isn't the whole Forgotten Realms in this situation (with competing major powers)? It's not like you can find ANY place (that is even remotely interesting) wihtout needing to compete with someone strong or nasty, ot both.

Not quite (Border Kingdoms and the strech between Vilhon Reach and Unther is fairly lacking of such, beyond regional wannabe's such as Tchazzar), but even if it is, it doesn't goes to show that planting yourself in the beehive of major powers is a good idea.

RedMage125

2014-06-17, 04:07 AM

Well, if you're not playing at a point in time where the Elves have already done this...

I say clear out all the demons, undead, and beholders out of Myth Drannor, and start up your empire there.

MirddinEmris

2014-06-17, 04:10 AM

Not quite (Border Kingdoms and the strech between Vilhon Reach and Unther is fairly lacking of such, beyond regional wannabe's such as Tchazzar), but even if it is, it doesn't goes to show that planting yourself in the beehive of major powers is a good idea.

Like i said, even remotely interesting. In every place where some power lies in FR, there will be competition. Without risk there is no reward.

MirddinEmris

2014-06-17, 04:12 AM

Well, if you're not playing at a point in time where the Elves have already done this...

I say clear out all the demons, undead, and beholders out of Myth Drannor, and start up your empire there.

Well, what i had in mind was assuming position of power in one or two Dales (there almost always something like this happening, so no one will really notice) and start cleansing Cormanthor until you are really powerful to play Game of Thrones with others in this region.

Sian

2014-06-17, 04:16 AM

Without risk there is no reward.

Obviously, but that again doesn't mean that your opening gambit should be in the backyard of some of the most powerful guys around... working from a possition out of the obvious places is still challenging, but not nearly as suicidal (short of stupidly good diplomacy allying to one power to keep another away, and in that case its tough to get out of being de facto vassal of your ally)

Alleran

2014-06-17, 04:16 AM

Cormyr isn't really a problem, because they've got more than enough problems on their own (with all that post-war and shades thing). Also, what Blackstaff forgot in Dales (well, forgot more than any other mary-sue-epic-character)?
The Dales (Shadowdale in particular) are a trading route that Cormyr has wanted to control/influence for many years now, especially in order to counter the effects of Sembia and Zhentil Keep (one of the reasons Elminster "retired" to Shadowdale is because even the threat of his possible presence in the Dales helps keep them back).

As to the Blackstaff, the creation of a stable power that was strong enough to interfere with Zhentil Keep, not beholden to Cormyr or elsewhere, but also not strong enough to seriously influence relations elsewhere in Faerun was one of the reasons why he arranged for the Pendant of Ashaba (which grants lordship of Shadowdale) to fall into the hands of the Knights of Myth Drannor and installed them as Lords of the Dale (they weren't given the option of refusal). He had his hands in the pie from the very beginning.

P.S. Also, isn't the whole Forgotten Realms in this situation (with competing major powers)?
Not at all. I pointed out one option myself. Another would be to grab a section of the North around/near the Silver Marches - outside of the major population centres, it's mostly just a whole pile of wilderness.

Gwendol

2014-06-17, 04:16 AM

RedMage125

2014-06-17, 04:18 AM

Starting at level 4 that may prove to be a challenge...

Kinda figured "Empire Carving" would be on hold until they actually have more levels...

Firechanter

2014-06-17, 04:19 AM

Wow, thanks for all those great replies. Lots of ideas rushing in here; gonna take a bit to sort through all of these.

I would try to raise a new continent from the sea. Establish myself as a naval power. I think I'd have a lot of fun with that, and the quest just to discover the spell (some variation of the Netherese Move Mountain?

Well, here I see two problems. One, raising new land from the sea is an Epic spell (Raise Island). Two, even if we create a new land it will have a population of 4. Not exactly the best starting ground for an Empire.

EDIT: As for input, it would be difficult to manage, but with a clear goal in mind, I think it would make for a fantastically exciting and png-range game, giving the players the opportunity to roleplay and optimize numerous facets of their empire.

What does png mean here?

Btw, will this be an IRL game, or an online one? In later case, i would LOVE to join :smallamused:

This is supposed to be a RL game with my group, sorry. I don't have a lot of experience with online games.

Personally in think that Daleland are the best bet.

That may be right -- at least for Good-Aligned parties that don't spark the ire of Elminster and cooperate with the Harpers.
Actually, our current game (using AD&D2, DM is not me) is already revolving around the Dalelands. We have driven the Zhents out of Daggerdale, bringing Randal Morn to the throne, who rewarded us with a barony at the eastern border (making my character Baron). However we regard that more as a base of operations and status symbol than as powerbase for a future empire. We are currently about to retake the Mines of Tethyamar from the nasty stuff inside it, and our Dwarven priest plans to install a settlement there. So we already are having a kind of smalltime Dominion game. My character (a Fighter/Bard and Harper) might actually develop the ambition to unite the Dalelands in a single High Kingdom, but wants to have his fill of sightseeing and adventuring before really settling down. And while reuniting the Dalelands might be a distant dream, he wouldn't have the ambition to build an actual Empire (nor would anyone else in this party).

Point is, by the time we're finished with this game, we're gonna have had our fill with the Dalelands. While we enjoy the Forgotten Realms, next game should focus on a different area, be it The North (although I also played a lot in that region before, too), the Unapproachable East, the Old Empires or whatnot... :smallsmile:

Alternatively, it could also happen that the next game is going to be about Planewalking, which is also awesome; I'm just going to suggest this Empire-building campaign to our group. After all, if we actually end up building a Daleland High Kingdom here, it would be time for something completely different before running another Dominion game.

However, reading the suggestions in this thread, Chessenta might be a good starting point. Unite the city-states, consolidate a nation, then make Unther a Protectorate, and go from there.
Mulhorand of course would also be an awesome base, but personally I'm not such a big fan of the Egyptian flavour. Well it's not that I don't like Ancient Egypt, it's just that it feels a few notches too anachronistic in a largely renaissance world.

The Border Kingdoms seem like a bit of a trap to me... sure, ole Ed may have installed them specifically to cater for kingdom-building ambitions, but it to me it seems like you get tossed in a shark pool, and even if you manage to come out on top after lots and lots of infighting, you're sitting there with an agricultural country and a problematic expansion route.

--
Also, thanks for bringing my attention to Power of Faerun. Got to admit that book slipped entirely under my radar. This may be just the thing I need for such a campaign.

More later. ^^

MirddinEmris

2014-06-17, 04:26 AM

The Dales (Shadowdale in particular) are a trading route that Cormyr has wanted to control/influence for many years now, especially in order to counter the effects of Sembia and Zhentil Keep (one of the reasons Elminster "retired" to Shadowdale is because even the threat of his possible presence in the Dales helps keep them back).

As to the Blackstaff, the creation of a stable power that was strong enough to interfere with Zhentil Keep, not beholden to Cormyr or elsewhere, but also not strong enough to seriously influence relations elsewhere in Faerun was one of the reasons why he arranged for the Pendant of Ashaba (which grants lordship of Shadowdale) to fall into the hands of the Knights of Myth Drannor and installed them as Lords of the Dale (they weren't given the option of refusal). He had his hands in the pie from the very beginning.

Not at all. I pointed out one option myself. Another would be to grab a section of the North around/near the Silver Marches - outside of the major population centres, it's mostly just a whole pile of wilderness.

The Cormyr still not in a good shape for another war, not to say that uniting the region will have good influence for trade.

Ok, point for Blackstaff. Still, if you aren't posing as a Dark Overlord wannabe, i don't think it will be a serious problem until you've got enough power to back your claims on empire thing. After all, you don't need to march armies across the Dales. Begin with one or two, that no one will really miss (so, no Shadowdale or Archendale and such), get some power from pillaging cleansing Cormanthor and then make some deals with side that you prefer to work with. Make yourself useful and not really worth to fight :smallsmile:

MirddinEmris

2014-06-17, 04:30 AM

Obviously, but that again doesn't mean that your opening gambit should be in the backyard of some of the most powerful guys around... working from a possition out of the obvious places is still challenging, but not nearly as suicidal (short of stupidly good diplomacy allying to one power to keep another away, and in that case its tough to get out of being de facto vassal of your ally)

Well, the topic is about carving your own Empire, not some backwater kingdom that no one really cares about. It's not a task for those who shy from challenge. What do you gain from uniting Border Kingdoms that will help your empire carving urge anyway?)

Gwendol

2014-06-17, 04:37 AM

That's the point really: to find a spot safe enough to grow in, while still be able to begin to interact with (control) neighbours through tolls and taxes. It should be centrally placed, yet with room to grow. There are a few options but I agree that Cormyr and the Dales are not my first choice.

Alleran

2014-06-17, 04:39 AM

...get some power from pillaging cleansing Cormanthor and then make some deals with side that you prefer to work with.
Cleansing Myth Drannor is something that ideally one would be high or epic level to accomplish (when it was cleared in the novels it took at least one early-epic wizard and a couple of armies, from what I recall), especially with all the devils and demons there.

As far as not posing as a Dark Overlord, it's going to depend on whether what you want aligns with what the people who have already hit Overlord-tier want, especially since you want to do it right in their backyard. At least if you're a few thousand miles away they have less cause to immediately take notice.

However, reading the suggestions in this thread, Chessenta might be a good starting point. Unite the city-states, consolidate a nation, then make Unther a Protectorate, and go from there.
Chessenta definitely has potential. I'm not overly familiar with the region, though, at least not beyond a couple of AD&D books that discussed it.

Watch out for Tchazzar.

MirddinEmris

2014-06-17, 04:54 AM

Cleansing Myth Drannor is something that ideally one would be high or epic level to accomplish (when it was cleared in the novels it took at least one early-epic wizard and a couple of armies, from what I recall), especially with all the devils and demons there.

As far as not posing as a Dark Overlord, it's going to depend on whether what you want aligns with what the people who have already hit Overlord-tier want, especially since you want to do it right in their backyard. At least if you're a few thousand miles away they have less cause to immediately take notice.

Chessenta definitely has potential. I'm not overly familiar with the region, though, at least not beyond a couple of AD&D books that discussed it.

Watch out for Tchazzar.

Well, there is a whole forest with ruins, not just Myth Drannor, though i admit that it'll be no cakewalk either (9th level characters should handle it, i think).

You can also work with some Overlords (Zhents, for example) not against them. And you can always pull Starscream later (and more successfully). Of course, it's not as easy as it sounds, but i don't think that you can build an Empire without building alliances with right people and powers.

Agree on Chessenta thing, it is definetely looks promising. Although there is a semi-divine epic CE Red Dragon (with a metric crapton of immunities, look Dragon Ascendant class) living here. So, i wouldn't think about it as safer route than Dalelands (at least you can strike a deal with Zhents, Elm or Blackstaff)

Alleran

2014-06-17, 06:23 AM

Well, there is a whole forest with ruins, not just Myth Drannor, though i admit that it'll be no cakewalk either (9th level characters should handle it, i think).
The Knights are early to mid-teens, and they still haven't managed to pull it off.

As far as working with the Zhentarim is concerned, it immediately puts you on all the wrong radars if what you want is a safe spot to start building an empire from (and that's definitely what you want). Working with the Zhentarim in the Dales is one of the worst possible choices to make.

Agree on Chessenta thing, it is definetely looks promising. Although there is a semi-divine epic CE Red Dragon (with a metric crapton of immunities, look Dragon Ascendant class) living here. So, i wouldn't think about it as safer route than Dalelands (at least you can strike a deal with Zhents, Elm or Blackstaff)
Tchazzar didn't return until after the Year of the Dracorage (he magically appeared above the harbour and flamed most of the ships in it just so everybody would know he was back). As long as things are set before that, they should be fine. Time it right, and Tchazzar's appearance could be an excellent capstone/final boss before the uniting of Chessenta is done (well-optimised 20th level characters should be able to take him, maybe (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802b&page=2) - he doesn't have Epic Spellcasting). Or just say he never shows up, I guess.

He's also a single individual. With the Dales you have at least half a dozen powers-that-be to worry about, if not twice or three times that (the curse of getting a lot of attention in published material - Waterdeep has the same problem).

Firechanter

2014-06-17, 07:21 AM

Yeah, that brings me back to the question of level cap.
As I said, I would prefer to avoid Epic levels. I am a big fan of the 20 level system, where you can multiclass but you always sacrifice something to get something else. This is reduced to absurdity when you can just have everything. Moreover, we all know what a huge mess Epic spellcasting is.

That said, this leads to the problem what to do with NPCs that are officially Epic. Such as Elminster, Simbul, the Thayan Boss-Lich, and many others. There's no good reason to deny the PCs something that NPCs can do. So if I stick with level cap 20, should I rewrite those NPCs to fit the bill? For example, the official Simbul build (Sor20/Wiz10/Acm2) is a mess - but I could see her as a level 20 Sor/Wiz/UM/Acm or possibly a Trix. Or Szass Tam - Nec10/Red10/Acm2/Epic7 with up to spell level 16 slots. Dafuq?

So anyway, I'm not sure what to do about these. Any experience with that?

Alleran

2014-06-17, 07:32 AM

So if I stick with level cap 20, should I rewrite those NPCs to fit the bill?
What you could do is use the pre-ELH "epic level" system in what was I think the FRCS. Characters could get things like an extra spell slot, feat, ability score increase, and so on, but wouldn't increase in HD.

Alternately, just throw out Epic Spellcasting.

It also depends on how far and how fast your PCs will go. Do you expect them to break into epic levels inside of, say, a year? If not, then it's not really something you need to worry about yet. See how they deal with the back end of the 20-level system first (unless you've run high-level games before, naturally).

Gwendol

2014-06-17, 08:10 AM

Do they need to go Epic to carve out an Empire? My guess is no, and keeping them out of it could help making the game feel "dangerous" at high levels.

Firechanter

2014-06-17, 08:37 AM

Well, they might clash with an Epic NPC at some point, and those encounters should also be winnable, after all those are just NPCs and not Gods.
But I might have to read up on FR Epic rules; what Alleran said sounds a lot more reasonable than the monstrosity that is ELH. Such as, no Epic spellcasting, _maybe_ higher level slots but only for purposes of metamagic, that might be more manageable.

Szass Tam for instance is described as having his level 16 slot for a "quickened, maximized energy drain". Good Guy Szass, going easy on the PCs by using his highest epic slot for something countered by a level 4 Cleric spell or a +1 Armor property. :smallbiggrin:

dysprosium

2014-06-17, 08:48 AM

Another thing to consider is how much your players know about the Realm and how much they would use "metagame" knowledge of it. Starting in one of the more populated or familiar areas could lead to even unintentional metagaming. You know your players best concerning this. Another issue that would solve your problem would be knowing what kind of characters your players would want to play. I mean if they want to play Barbarians, starting in Thay might not be the best choice for them.

Starting at Level 4 implies that they will have to get allies and gather an army eventually--unless they approach one of the epic characters to be the possible Emperor (at least in the beginning before such an Emperor met with an untimely accident . . . )

Thay is already starting to conquer Faerun--through economics! They have established enclaves nearly everywhere on the continent. Each enclave is already considered Thayan soil. Check out Mysteries of the Moonseas for more on that.

Border Kingdoms would be another good choice to start. I had a campaign that fell apart (due to real life problems) that was starting there with the intent on uniting them under one banner. There is also plenty of material on these outside of Power of Faerun on the old wizards site--individual writeups on numerous kingdoms.

I also like the idea of the Mulhorandis "waking up" and taking the immediate area over and expanding from there. It could even be a divine crusade for their gods considering how Toril's deities' power is correlated to the number of worshippers they have. After all these are descendants of a displaced people that brought their gods with them. Tired of being second fiddle to most of these upstart former mortals, the Mulhorandi Pantheon could decide to strike out through their worshippers.

Bonzai

2014-06-17, 09:36 AM

My vote would be for Unther. The kingdom was ruled by an Immortal God King for most of it's history. When he was killed during the Time of Troubles, it left a HUGE power vacuum. Followers of Tiamat and Bane both started vying for control over it, Mulhorand invaded it's border, and eventually Tchazzar swooped in and broke off Chessenta from it. Right about that time is where I would start the campaign. I had in fact created a high level campaign for just that purpose way back when. Only it involved Hoar deciding to take his rightful place as the last Untheric God King, and granting his people revenge against all who oppressed them. The party were his mortal agents, and were charged with several tasks. Destroying the Banite and Tiamat cults, driving off the mulhorandi, and convincing Shurrapak to become Hoar's chosen, so that he may get revenge for his fallen master and slay Tchazzar, the chosen of Tiamat.

Post spell plague the writers evidently couldn't figure out what to do with it, so they nuked the whole area and put in a kingdom of Dragon people. Cause they are 12 year olds and dragon people are like, cool... and stuff. Yeah, the spell plague never happened for me either. Or 4th edition for that matter.

Firechanter

2014-06-17, 06:52 PM

My vote would be for Unther.

That sounds like playing the Dominion game in Hard Mode. ;)

Actually I had a different idea as well, depending on how our AD&D game is going to develop. As I wrote above, _maybe_ my character develops a greater ambition to rule. And in that case, maybe I can convince the rest of the party to assist me in that endeavour. And if so, we might be able to forge a High Kingdom of the Dales -- not so much through conquest, but more through negotiations. Basically I might get the various Dalish rulers to elect my character as High King. Which would be a nice endgame for our current campaign.

And _then_ we could switch to a new game (and go back to 3.5 rules), and play a generation later, as the heirs of AD&D group. And continue the expansion course set by our predecessors. ;)

Just one idea of many, though.
Otherwise, my current favourites of options are Chessenta, Chondat or Sespech as seeding point for a new Empire. But this thread has shown that there are indeed multiple viable options, which is great.

Coidzor

2014-06-19, 12:05 AM

Otherwise, my current favourites of options are Chessenta, Chondat or Sespech as seeding point for a new Empire. But this thread has shown that there are indeed multiple viable options, which is great.

Yeah, as long as it's not hamstrung by a low population base, geographical isolation, or having neighbours who would be too strong to go up against, any location/region that can be compared to the Greek City-states, Pre-Unification Germany or Italy, the Iberian peninsula during the reconquista, or the Mongolian steppes can probably yield the seeds of empire with the right encouragement.

My biggest difficulty is that I can't really remember the various ethnic groups of Faerun all that well, so inventing and tapping into nationalism, at least for unifying X region, is a bit trickier to envision without that knowledge. IIRC, in, say, Greyhawk one could get a fair bit of headway with it, since the groundwork for nationalism has already been set in place. Seems like one possibility that hasn't received much treatment in this thread though.