Help with an NPC

[Kazudo]

EDIT: Nevermind. It's a stupid idea for a thread anyway.

[Red Fel]

Any other notions?

So, let me see if I understand.

You have a group of non-casters, so you want to make an Arcane and Divine caster.

You have a group of combatants, so you want to make a character who takes a Vow that penalizes them for engaging in combat.

Then, you want to take your caster with awesome power who prevents the party from doing what they do, and make her a higher level.

This is an extraordinarily bad idea. I cannot emphasize it enough. Even if you don't want this NPC to be a DMPC, she is already a phenomenal drain on the campaign - she is better than the party at everything, and keeps them from engaging in combat lest they provoke penalties. This is remarkably bad.

Want to make a helpful NPC? Try the Adept (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm) class. Now you can perform backup healing, buffs, basic casting. You don't get access to overwhelmingly powerful stuff. Your class chassis is unimpressive. No fancy feats, no fancy tricks.

Alternatively, make an Artificer. Be the party's gear monkey. Use wands and scrolls to give them buffs. Use a crossbow and make a nominal (but not overwhelming) contribution in combat.

Or, as an alternative, do what you suggested in your post - gear the campaign to not require a dedicated caster. D&D isn't an MMO. Dedicated caster is not a mandatory role.

What you're proposing would both overshadow and cripple the party. Don't do it.

[Kazudo]

Ok. Firstly, she's not going to accompany the party. While she'll occasionally, for flavor purposes, make the party feel bad for their murderhobo ways, it won't have a numerical effect on them.

Secondly, the only way to overshadow a party of combatants is to make a combatant. Which she isn't.

Thirdly, there aren't any casters with any real casting ability that are going to cause problems.

And yes, she's 20th level in a 4th level game so that the game can advance smoothly with a bunch of really new players none of which are playing dedicated casters at all.

The players won't be aware that she is that much more powerful than they are, and if they were, it would be EXCEPTIONAL metagaming to have their character aware of it, the kind of metagaming I don't stand for.

Where's the problem in all of that?

EDIT: And, it's worth noting, that though it probably wasn't meant, phrases like "D&D isn't an MMO" make it look like you don't think I know what I'm doing. I've been running D&D games for a decade. This isn't my first rodeo, I'm just looking for ideas and suggestions on the thing that I'm doing, not to be told that the thing that I'm doing is stupid.

[Red Fel]

Ok. Firstly, she's not going to accompany the party. While she'll occasionally, for flavor purposes, make the party feel bad for their murderhobo ways, it won't have a numerical effect on them.

If she's not to accompany the party, what's going to keep her in the party's world? What's to stop the party from ditching her if they want to?


Secondly, the only way to overshadow a party of combatants is to make a combatant. Which she isn't.

Incorrect. Another way to overshadow a party is to have a character who does valuable or necessary things that they cannot do, and such actions are not limited to combat. I was in a Dragonlance campaign where a Black Robe Wizard was our primary mode of transportation after she researched Teleport Without Error. We would wait in-game days while she popped off to her Tower to get components, with a stop-over in random island nations to slaughter their inhabitants and raise them as wretched undead. She didn't have to be better than the rest of us at combat; she just had to be invaluable outside of it.

Or consider the Diplomancer, who takes care of your social roles; the Bucket of Knowledge, who tells you everything you need to know about enemies, nations, maps, and the plot; the Gadget Guy, who happens to have whatever Maguffin you need in his Bag of Useful Crap; and so on. It's not hard to make a party feel overshadowed if you have the tools to handle the encounter, even when that encounter is non-combat. Especially when it's non-combat.

Part of the reason many melee classes never rise above Tier 3, at best, is that so many lack any out-of-combat versatility. An Arcane/Divine caster has all the versatility she needs, combat or not.


Thirdly, there aren't any casters with any real casting ability that are going to cause problems.

So why do you need a dedicated caster at all?


And yes, she's 20th level in a 4th level game so that the game can advance smoothly with a bunch of really new players none of which are playing dedicated casters at all.

... Wait, what?


And yes, she's 20th level in a 4th level game

20th level in a 4th level game

What? Seriously, what?!

... Do you see what you made me do? I used my interrobang for the month. I hope you're happy.

What in the Prime are you doing bringing a 20th-level NPC - an epic-level character with character levels - into a 4th-level game? What possibly convinced you that this was a good idea for a sidekick?

I really need to apologize, because I realize my language is harsh and accusatory, but this strikes me as so profoundly senseless that I can actually feel my blood pressure rising. How is this a good idea? What is it accomplishing? What is so vitally important that you have a transcendent being playing second-fiddle to a bunch of fledgling adventurers?


The players won't be aware that she is that much more powerful than they are, and if they were, it would be EXCEPTIONAL metagaming to have their character aware of it, the kind of metagaming I don't stand for.

And how does that make it any better? They will know in fairly short order, unless they are complete idiots, that she is capable of some amazing things. They don't have to metagame to realize that she is a major power player. How will you justify it when they start asking questions? What if they start wondering why this character isn't out there doing the stuff they're risking life and limb to accomplish? What if they feel overshadowed by her obvious power?


Where's the problem in all of that?

See above.


EDIT: And, it's worth noting, that though it probably wasn't meant, phrases like "D&D isn't an MMO" make it look like you don't think I know what I'm doing. I've been running D&D games for a decade. This isn't my first rodeo, I'm just looking for ideas and suggestions on the thing that I'm doing, not to be told that the thing that I'm doing is stupid.

I realize that, and again I should apologize for my tone. But "my players need a dedicated caster" is an unsupported statement, particularly when you acknowledge that you can make the campaign such that they don't. I simply don't understand what this character - this overwhelming character - is intended to accomplish, apart from simply cramming a caster into the campaign. It feels so unnecessary.

Let's start over, with a simple question: What do you intend to accomplish with this NPC?

[Kazudo]

I intend to create a 20th level Apostle of Peace character which will be in place for the purposes of streamlining a game for new people who are still struggling to get the basics of the game.

The help I came for were for ideas that fit within those parameters.

But really I should have known better than to post an idea knowing full well the kind of scrutiny it would undergo, rather than actually receive creative and constructive aid WITHIN the boundaries I set.

Oh well. Message received.

[Red Fel]

I intend to create a 20th level Apostle of Peace character which will be in place for the purposes of streamlining a game for new people who are still struggling to get the basics of the game.

The help I came for were for ideas that fit within those parameters.

But really I should have known better than to post an idea knowing full well the kind of scrutiny it would undergo, rather than actually receive creative and constructive aid WITHIN the boundaries I set.

Oh well. Message received.

No need for that. I apologized.

But I'm still trying to understand. How does a 20th-level Apostle of Peace streamline the game for new people?

It seems to me that if you're trying to teach people the game, much of the learning is done out-of-character. I'm trying to understand how having a powerful character like that accomplishes the objective.

I can't very well offer you advice on how to design the character if I still don't understand what the character is supposed to do.

[Kazudo]

I think that I don't need the kind of help you've been intent on offering thusfar. But thank you for your attempts anyway.

[torrasque666]

People other than Red Fel read this ya know. However, if you won't assume that others will use your responses to his questions as a springboard no one can help. So I'll restate his question as from someone who you haven't decided won't help you:


How does a 20th-level Apostle of Peace streamline the game for new people?

It seems to me that if you're trying to teach people the game, much of the learning is done out-of-character. I'm trying to understand how having a powerful character like that accomplishes the objective.

I can't very well offer you advice on how to design the character if I still don't understand what the character is supposed to do.

[Kazudo]

Naw, you're right. My blood pressure got the better of me and I was all ready to take my ball and go home.

Red Fel, sorry for the explosive retort. I know how this forum can be about chewing ideas up and spitting them out. I'm dead-set in the basic style and I don't think my reasoning should be the primary focus of this thread since, let's face it, I'm not asking for people to change my reasoning but rather fill it in with usable detail.

So allow me to elaborate.

I'm trying to make the party not have to worry about magic. If they walk up to St. Jude the Awesome Dude and ask him for a higher level teleport and the answer is "so we don't have to walk", it ain't happening. If they walk up being still level four and ask St. Jude the Awesome Dude for a wand of knock and they don't have a locksmith in the group, they might get it if they have a specific purpose in mind. Etc.

So you know that really annoying thing that happens when you're knee-deep in a dungeon or miles away from the nearest town and, wouldn't you know it, you forgot the fifty feet of rope that you need for whatever reason and can't go without, so suddenly you have to completely derail what's happening to get it? With this new group that's not the hang up. The hang up with the group is a magician. There's someone in the group who can use scrolls provided a high enough check, so I'm not worried about that.

So, say the group IS miles from the nearest town and somehow they've talked St. Jude the Awesome Dude into accompanying them. Well, not accompanying them per se but being within close proximity. And yeah, bringing him along is a chore. He's incredibly worth it though because of his abilities. They start fighting, he starts Morrigan-ing. Whatever. At least it saves us the problem of having to suddenly derail the game because for some reason the group has decided that magic will solve the problem ahead of them and they won't hear any other solution.

It happens. I don't like railroading.

At any rate, at my table the bulk of learning the system happens hands-on. In game. We're alright with holding up the game to explain how grappling (as clumsy as that is) works to someone. We're good with hanging up the game to explain critical threat versus critical hit. We're also just fine with stopping for a second while we explain exactly what a this that and the other does. That's unavoidable. Even "experienced" players have to do that sometimes, and it sucks, but it's a real problem especially with an inexperienced group.

How I've decided my table is going to handle this is to make a mid-experienced game and let the situations organically instruct the new players. It's worked a LOT in the past. This time I've decided that I'm also going to provide an NPC who will basically provide some flavor, sometimes motivation, but primarily a solution. And, should any characters opt to jump into the world of magic more than the semi-experienced two that did, they've had some immersion into the notion and the transition will be somewhat less painful.

Anyway, now that that's out of the way, I'll go ahead and say that this has inspired me to gimp Vow of Nonviolence a bit since the players don't have access to it, which will remove the penalty for combat within 120 ft. for allies. We'll just say that St. Jude the Awesome Dude's patron deity isn't THAT strict. One of those things where he only really cares about the people who are his flock, so it could even be a running gag that St. Jude the Awesome Dude is always attempting to get the party members to meditate and accept the teachings of Godly Importance or some junk. I don't know.