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Particle_Man
2014-06-16, 03:04 PM
I was thinking of a Human Sorcerer (Verdant bloodline) that takes the feat "Expanded Arcana" to get an extra spell known at max. level, and uses favoured class bonus as often as possible to get an extra spell known at (max.level - 1). I would even pick traits Magical Talent (stabilize) and Sacred Touch, to give more options. Just to complete the picture I would take Fleet as the bonus feats for the bloodline. So in some ways the character would be simpler, albeit with more spells known.

But on to "spells known". I think the table would start to look like this:

Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (if human sorcerer with right feats and class bonus)

0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st 5 4 — — — — — — — —
2nd 7 4 — — — — — — — —
3rd 8 6+ — — — — — — — —
4th 9 7+ 1 — — — — — — —
5th 9 9+ 3+ — — — — — — —
6th 10 9+ 4+ 1 — — — — — —
7th 10 10+ 6+ 3+ — — — — — —
8th 11 10+ 6+ 4+ 1 — — — — —
9th 11 10+ 7+ 6+ 3+ — — — — —
10th 12 10+ 7+ 6+ 4+ 1 — — — —
11th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 6+ 3+ — — — —
12th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 6+ 4+ 1 — — —
13th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 7+ 6+ 3+ — — —
14th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 7+ 6+ 4+ 1 — —
15th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 7+ 7+ 6+ 3+ — —
16th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 7+ 7+ 6+ 4+ 1 —
17th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 7+ 7+ 6+ 6+ 3+ —
18th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 7+ 7+ 6+ 6+ 4+ 1
19th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 7+ 7+ 6+ 6+ 6+ 3+
20th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 7+ 7+ 6+ 6+ 7+ 4+

The "+" is for the bloodline.

So, two questions, each subdivided:

1 a) Is this increase in spells known enough to bump the sorcerer from Tier 2 to Tier 1?

1 b) If not, what is the minimum number of spells known by level that would be required to do so (I assume that "spells known: all on sorcerer/wizard spell list" would do so, but that a lesser amount would also do so).

2 a) Given the increase in spells known, the verdant bloodline and the above traits, and spells from the Pathfinder Core Book and the Advanced Players Guide, what would be good sorcerer spells to take?

2 b) Which would be good spells to keep, and which would be good to trade off at even numbered levels (4th to 20th, inclusive)?

grarrrg
2014-06-16, 08:56 PM
You're probably better off going Half-Elf (or Human+Half-Elf-Racial-Heritage feat) and abuse Paragon Surge. MUCH lower Feat investment.
If you do go Half-Elf, they have the same Sorcerer Favored option as Humans, so you're still getting extra (lower level) spells known.

Key things:
Paragon Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge) spell, 3rd level, temporarily gives you any feat you qualify for. This feat will usually be "Expanded Arcana".
Quicken + Spell Perfection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection) set to Paragon Surge. Now you can cast Paragon Surge as a Swift Action and have ANY Wiz/Sorc list spell instantly (or 2 if there are less than highest level).

Alternate option is to take Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage) set to the Arcane Bloodline (note: since you are a Sorc do NOT take Arcane as your main bloodline). Also, do NOT take Improved Eldritch Heritage. Paragon Surge will be used to get Imp. Eldritch. With Imp. Eldritch you get up to _3_ spells of your choosing (and they can ALL be of the highest level).

Faily
2014-06-16, 09:13 PM
Do keep in mind that most GMs worth their salt will shoot down Paragon Surge-abuse before it hits the table.

There are the Page of Spell Knowledge that can help in gaining more spells.

Raven777
2014-06-16, 10:43 PM
In my humble opinion, you can do fine with the Human - or Half-Elf or Half-Orc - favored class bonus spells known alone without using Paragon Surge for spells known (do note that Paragon Surge does remain an amazing option for the "have access to any feat ever" feature). Wasting feats on Expanded Arcana also feels a bit superfluous, to me. The ultimate secret with Sorcerers remains building a versatile spell selection, covering different effects and save types. To that end, this thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nknk?Sorceror-Spell-Selection) and this guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/17S3pYy0wk8uUTJ3RFaIDk5vz29WYmOXuhWiOKHO2E_M/edit), though both a bit outdated, should prove quite relevant.

For spell versatility, I would also like to point you to the Mnemonic Vestment (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/vestment-mnemonic), which once a day lets you cast a spell from a Scroll as if you knew it - therefore using your own character's statistics to set DCs, durations and such instead of the maker's - and without consuming the Scroll. With the kind of library one can build just out of the random scrolls and books adventurers come upon while dungeon crawling, this can turn you into quite the once-a-day problem solver.

Also, I can never argue enough about the merits of Shadow Conjuration (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5kvBvq2DEHjR1dOeEVkRUU4WlU/edit) and Shadow Evocation (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5kvBvq2DEHjTVF4NEY4SXpSTUU/edit). Actually, the guides I linked will do all the arguing for me.

Serafina
2014-06-17, 12:59 AM
Mnemonic Vestments don't have to be once per day either - theoretically you can just undress and put on a new one after you use up the daily charge. Or, less cheesy, just ask your GM for a version with more charges/craft your own (simply multiplication, one with 5 charges costs 5 times as much).

I'm currently playing a Sorceress whos pretending to be a mage - fake spellbook, sage bloodline, familiar via tattooed familiar etc. Mnemonic Vestments actually give her a reason to carry a spellbook - you don't need to be a Wizard to craft one after all.

But really, Mnemonic Vestments should be mandatory for any optimized Sorcerer who is not using Paragon Surge cheese - you can't just overstate the utility of spontaneously having access to any obscure problem-solver spell. With one, you never are in a situation where you'd really love to be able to cast a spell but have to rely on expensive scrolls - you are basically in the same situation as a Wizard for downtime spells (and its a good one).

Particle_Man
2014-06-17, 01:49 PM
Thanks for all of your replies.

Talya
2014-06-17, 01:53 PM
Pathfinder doesn't have nearly as expansive a useful spell list as 3.5 did.

Honestly, I have trouble filling my spell lists with spells I want to take on PF Oracles. Sorcerers fare a little better, but still, the difference in actual play between a wizard and sorcerer is going to come down to the delayed spell level progression. Sorcerers will get nearly everything they want as they level with favored class bonuses alone.