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Marcotic
2007-02-23, 03:29 AM
Ok, I go to WOTC and post a few, (because there cheese amuses me) I have tried to get a reasonable disscussion about how to make a symple, balanced fighter class, (because I think it just needs something more) But always I get either ignored, links to there ridiculously flavorless fix and/or a broken piece of garbage.

I don't want any abilities that have a per day or per whatever attached, and I want it to be so simple a noob could pick it up with ease, but mostly i want it to balance well, not be the ultimate good class for a meleer, and it can't force the player into any specific roll, (or if it does alows the choices for those rolls like a gaurdian, tactiction, or skirmisher) If this has been done to death, just let me know. (im kinda new here, so if this isn't the place for this thread please lemme' know that to)

I'll post my suggestion tomorrow. LONG LIVE OOTS!!!

starwoof
2007-02-23, 03:37 AM
I direct you to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30692) fine piece of work. Its wunnerful.

Dhavaer
2007-02-23, 03:45 AM
It doesn't seem to help them with the problem of actually managing to make a full attack, though.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-23, 03:50 AM
It doesn't seem to help them with the problem of actually managing to make a full attack, though.

Sure it does. Charging Pounce, for example. Tactical Positioning can let them close while attacking with a ranged weapon. Seize the Initiative helps win Init and get there.

I could only do so much for the fighter's mobility without giving him completely flavor-breaking abilities, though. Every class needs weak points; that's one of the fighter's--I've removed a number of others.

Just a note: I'm working on redoing Willful Resistance, which is significantly overpowered as is. It'll be fixed soon.

Matthew
2007-02-23, 01:26 PM
What kind of fixes are you looking for? Many of the Figter's problems are the same as those that other Non Casters suffer. The kind of things I have in mind are Full Saving Throws (or even Saving Throws that scale 1:1 by level), a Feat at every level, more Class Skills and Skill Points and some altered Feats, such as Weapon Mastery.

Krellen
2007-02-23, 01:30 PM
I would agree with above posters. Before we can "fix" the Fighter, we have to know how you see it as broken. (Personally, I don't think Fighters are broken. If you think Fighters are limited, give them more feats to pick from; but honestly, try taking on a dragon without one. Just try.)

Tormsskull
2007-02-23, 01:37 PM
Woah woah woah. Fighters need to be made better? I'm surprised we haven't seen other threads that attempt to make them better yet.

Morty
2007-02-23, 01:49 PM
There's that one too:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35409
I personally like it more than BWL's fix(which is not to imply the second one is bad, I just like Szatany's one more).

Druid
2007-02-23, 02:08 PM
I would agree with above posters. Before we can "fix" the Fighter, we have to know how you see it as broken. (Personally, I don't think Fighters are broken. If you think Fighters are limited, give them more feats to pick from; but honestly, try taking on a dragon without one. Just try.)

Okay. Round one: the wizard uses shivering touch, the dragon loses.

That didn't seem very hard at all.

To be on topic, One idea I had was to let fighters ignore a certain amount of damage reduction, based on their level. That would help eliminate the golf club syndrome they currently suffer from.

Krellen
2007-02-23, 02:17 PM
Okay. Round one: the wizard uses shivering touch, the dragon loses.
WTF is shivering touch?

And how'd a wizard live to deliver a touch spell?

elliott20
2007-02-23, 02:23 PM
I always thought the fighter's problem was the lack of any high level abilities that allows them to compete with other classes. or rather, they're missing their capstone ability.

It's no wonder really, because after a while, there really isn't much you can do with your feats beyond blowing them on abilities that give you a measly +1 to hit.

In my opinion, I think it would be better to simply create deeper feat chains that becomes increasingly more powerful but requires so many feats that only fighters will qualify for.

that way, we capitalize on fighter's number of feats and give them something to work towards.

So maybe we should create more feats that can mimic some magical effects.

Orzel
2007-02-23, 02:25 PM
WTF is shivering touch?

Shivering touch does a nice load of dex damage



And how'd a wizard live to deliver a touch spell?

Same way they do everything. Win inititive and overbuff themself.

Krellen
2007-02-23, 02:29 PM
Shivering touch does a nice load of dex damage
Where's it come from? If there's an overpowered spell, that doesn't make a class weak, that makes a spell overpowered.

"Being useless" is not one of the Fighter's flaws, even at 20th level. "Poor Will Saves" might qualify, or "too much diversity". But a wizard - or even a cleric - can't take the fighter's place at high level play.


Same way they do everything. Win inititive and overbuff themself.
How does the wizard buff himself and still deliver a touch spell in a single round?

For that matter, how did the wizard manage to start the encounter within 30 feet of the dragon so that he could cast, approach, and deliver the spell without an AoO (which, if the dragon was smart, would be a grapple. Wizard eliminated)?

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-23, 02:33 PM
I would agree with above posters. Before we can "fix" the Fighter, we have to know how you see it as broken. (Personally, I don't think Fighters are broken. If you think Fighters are limited, give them more feats to pick from; but honestly, try taking on a dragon without one. Just try.)

Um.
How, exactly, is the fighter going to help against a dragon?
-Flyby Attack + 150-200 foot fly speed mean that fighter literally can't hope to make a full attack against the thing; most of the time, he can't even make a regular attack.
-Six to eight or so high-damage attacks in a full attack, with Power Attack combined with the dragon's huge AB, mean that trading full attacks with a dragon is very much a losing proposition for the fighter.
-Once again, that 150-200 foot fly speed: the dragon can essentially ignore the fighter and focus on enemies that can actually hurt it, like the wizard or druid.

"Helping to take on a dragon" is exactly the kind of thing a fighter can't do.

To go into detail on the fighter's problems:
-The fighter's abilities don't scale well with level. 99% of feats can be had at level 6 or 8 or before. That means that the feats the Fighter's getting at levels 18-20 aren't any better than the ones he got at levels 6-8; not only are those feats balanced for the mid-levels, but the fighter already picked up all the *best* ones as soon as he could, so really, his "bonus feats" class ability gets *worse* as you advance in levels.
-The fighter's abilities are in no way unique to the class. Weapon Supremacy, sure, but that's not a particularily potent feat chain. Shock Trooper? Elusive Target? Steadfast Determination? Yeah, they're great feats... but the Barbarian can have whatever two out of the three suit him best. In other words, all of the fighter's very best options are availible to other characters, who get real class features to boot.
-The fighter has at most one strength (direct combat), and like fifteen hundred gaping weaknesses. Only the rogue is theoretically easier to disable; the rogue, however, can cover his weaknesses with stealth and Use Magic Device. Between UMD, sneak attack, and skills, the rogue can be good at four or five things, too. Barbarians get saving throw bonuses in Rage, Indomitable Will; Rogues get Slippery Mind, UMD, things like that. The Ranger gets two good saves. The fighter's got nothin'. A fighter has to use items to cover all of his weaknesses, which just isn't feasible.
-Yet more weaknesses: There's basically nothing the fighter *isn't* vulnerable to. Their Fort save isn't best-in-class, as while they have a good Fort save, few Fighters max out CON; the best saves in the game come from stat dependence plus good save. For example, the rogue's Reflex save or the druid's Will save are as good as it gets. Additionally, the fighter has absolutely no class defenses against any of the monster abilities or spells out there. Items help cover this--to some extent, but not nearly enough. The Fighter shares this problem with many melee classes, but it suffers from it more than most of'em.
-Lack of Mobility. The fighter's likely to have a 20' movement speed (heavy armor), and no way beyond items of flying (very expensive and/or limited-use items), teleporting (expensive and limited use), or otherwise just plain getting to enemies, who often *are* very mobile (from high fly speeds to at-will teleporting). This means that even if the fighter survives un-disabled long enough to deliver a full attack, he can't get there to do it. Again, the fighter has this in common with many melee types, but he's got it worse than most. An archer fighter doesn't have this problem--but then he can't "tank", and "archer" really shouldn't be the only high-level-viable fighter type. The lack of mobility is so bad because the fighter is only relevant when he's hitting things. The wizard can throw spells from far away, *and* is far more mobile than the fighter to boot, between flight spells and teleportation spells.
-Monsters are better fighters than the fighter. This is really an issue with the "fewer monsters than party members, tough monsters" style of D&D, but a CR-appropriate monster is meant to pose a threat to a party of four, and therefore, if it's melee-inclined, will be tough enough to last in melee against several opponents. That means exchanging full attacks with many monsters can go pretty poorly for the Fighter. Really well-built fighters can get by this, though.

So, basically, the fighter has no unique strengths or abilities, has more weaknesses than pretty much any other PC class in the game barring crap like the Samurai, can get his best "abilities" at level six or eight, doesn't have the mobility to get to monsters to do his job, and has to do his job against enemies who are often better at his job than he is.
And that's why the fighter is a weak class.

Orzel
2007-02-23, 02:41 PM
Where's it come from? If there's an overpowered spell, that doesn't make a class weak, that makes a spell overpowered.

"Being useless" is not one of the Fighter's flaws, even at 20th level. "Poor Will Saves" might qualify, or "too much diversity". But a wizard - or even a cleric - can't take the fighter's place at high level play.

The problem must people see is that at higher level, must of the things fighters can do are no longer useful, effecient, or possible. Once you get to a point only basic combat tactics are needed or work at all.


How does the wizard buff himself and still deliver a touch spell in a single round?

For that matter, how did the wizard manage to start the encounter within 30 feet of the dragon so that he could cast, approach, and deliver the spell without an AoO (which, if the dragon was smart, would be a grapple. Wizard eliminated)?

One round is probably an exaggeration. A wizard walking around with a few hour/level spells on him casting 1-3 buffs and touching something is common with very experienced players

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-23, 02:43 PM
Where's it come from? If there's an overpowered spell, that doesn't make a class weak, that makes a spell overpowered.
It's from Frostburn. Use Arcane Reach or Reach Spell to deliver it safely from a distance.
Shivering touch is a seriously broken spell, as bad as Polymorph (or even worse). However, you can get a similar effect with Quickened Ray of Clumsiness plus (Split?) Ray of Exhaustion.
Or you can essentially win the fight with Arcane Reach plus the Irresistible Dance spell.
What's more, the wizard has tons of other tactics against the dragon. Resist Energy (breath weapon protection) lasts a long time, the wizard can survive a single attack from the dragon, with Freedom of Movement from a ring or from the Heart of Air spell or another source keeping him safe from grapples, and the dragon can't both full attack. The wizard can apply negative levels, throw high-level will-save spells (a well-built wizard has a solid 50% chance of beating a CR-appropriate dragon's will save with one of his higher-level spells), debuff the dragon (quickened empowered ray of enfeeblement plus split ray of exhaustion won't take the dragon out, but they'll certainly put a major crimp in his style)... the wizard has lots of effective options.
The fighter has the "move over and hit him" option, which he can't exercise, because the dragon has a 150-foot plus fly speed and Flyby Attack. He plinks at the dragon, a few 1d8+10(+2d6, let's call it an expensive magic bow) shots from a longbow against the dragon's significant AC.


"Being useless" is not one of the Fighter's flaws, even at 20th level. "Poor Will Saves" might qualify, or "too much diversity". But a wizard - or even a cleric - can't take the fighter's place at high level play.No, "being useless". A cleric can *easily* take the fighter's place, since he can buff himself in *one round* to be as good at melee as the fighter, *and* still spellcast; he can do productive things like throw a Greater Dispel Magic or will-save-or-lose spell at the dragon.
In many high-level encounters, the fighter can't contribute *at all*. The Balor, for example, has its tactics spelled out in the book. What does a fighter do against that, round by round?
The higher-level you are, the less the fighter contributes.


How does the wizard buff himself and still deliver a touch spell in a single round?Oh, I dunno. Celerity (Cheesy)? Time Stop (common Core spell)? Long-term buffs (hours/level, extended 10 mins/level)? Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability? Dropping a Solid Fog on the dragon to buy himself and the party a couple of rounds of buffing? Lots of different ways.


For that matter, how did the wizard manage to start the encounter within 30 feet of the dragon so that he could cast, approach, and deliver the spell without an AoO (which, if the dragon was smart, would be a grapple. Wizard eliminated)?If he really needs to, the wizard can use quickened spells to approach. Or he can deliver the spell as a ranged touch.

The fighter IS weak. He has tons of weaknesses, and one strength; he gets no unique abilities to support that strength, no way to cover his weaknesses, no way to contribute *at all, period* to many mid-high to high-level encounters... is it any wonder that people just dip the class for two levels?
And on top of that, even when the fighter *can* Do His Thing and walk up to something and melee it, there are plenty of other classes who can do it better. Some of them can do it better, have few to none of the Fighter's weaknesses, heal themselves, and still be full spellcasters (the cleric and druid).


If you think the fighter is capable of handling himself against high-level challenges, feel free to tell me what a well-built fighter would *do*, round by round, against various CR 20-ish threats. Balors, dragons, Titans, NPC spellcasters,and the like. Please don't assume that the monsters/NPCs will be idiots: the dragon is not going to sit there trading full attacks (not that that'd go that well for the fighter) and casts as a level 13-ish sorcerer, the Balor's tactics are outlined in the description, an NPC spellcaster has little gear compared to a PC caster, but still has tons of higly effective options and certainly won't just sit there while the fighter walks up to him, and so on.

Krellen
2007-02-23, 03:09 PM
To have a 50% chance to overcome an appropriate-CR'd dragon's Will Save at level 20, the wizard has to get +12 to his DC from Intelligence and feats. That's a 30 Intelligence and Greater Spell Focus; and if your wizard has a 30 Intelligence, maybe you need to reconsider the balance of your gameplay.

The wizard does not beat the dragon as handily as you think.

I've run a level 20 fight against a dragon. Not hypothetically, but in an actual campaign against actual players. The PCs were a Paladin/Spellsword, a Wizard and a Bard - no fighters, and they were slaughtered. Eventually, the wizard had to shapechange into a Gold Dragon and cast Tenser's Transformation to hold off the dragon (to do the Fighter's job) (the Paladin was already down) while the Bard kept casting Mind Fog until the dragon rolled a 1, so that she could then cast Hold Monster with a reasonable chance of success.

Flyby attack only prevents AoOs from those the creature actually attacks, just like Spring Attack does. If the dragon is using it to target the wizard, then all the fighter has to do is stand beside the wizard and wait. He'll get a readied attack and an AoO; two attacks at his highest BAB. And if you're fighting the dragon in an area where it can constantly and consistantly flyby you, you're facing a higher CR; dragon CRs are specifically stated as being balanced for a prepared party, not an unprepared one as are most CRs.

It seems the major problem is not any core mechanic, but a lack of proper feat choices. Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialisation are surely steps in the right direction; clearly, the answer is to develop new feats (or remove the [Epic] from some Epic feats, perhaps) to allow the Fighter to more fully specialise his combat abilities to reach a level unreachable by other classes. Feats further down the Improved Critical tree to improve his ability to deliver devastating blows with a single swing; feats further down the Cleave tree to make his mob tactics more powerful; feats furth down the Expertise tree to eliminate the penalties involved in trying to trip or disarm things ten times your size. If you want to make it special for the fighter, throw in fighter level requirements, like Weapon Specialisation does.

OotS is a really good example of how useless a fighter isn't. How useless is Roy?

Marcotic
2007-02-23, 03:16 PM
First, thanks for the imput. 2nd for now, im only trying to improve the fighter class, sure i know towards the end mellee doesn't much matter, but I just think the fighter needs a little umph to help it compete with a barbarian, not to mention some of the other, newer mellee classes, and heres the kicker, it can't completly steal any of there niche's

to that end I summit these 3 simple variants. (there the same as fighter exept where noted.

Skirmisher
Skill per level 4
add Tumble and Balance to class skills
add skill focus (tumble and balance) to fighter bonus feat list
at 5th level and every five levels there after, add 5 to your base movement speed. there is a penalty for wearing medium or heavy armor or carrying a medium or heavy load.

So as a break down of the speed increase.
...................Light...........Medium......Hea vy
5-9th.............+5............+0..............+0
10-14th..........+10...........+5..............+0
15th-19th.......+15...........+5..............+0
20th...............+20..........+10.............+0

pedrokraemer
2007-02-23, 03:35 PM
Have any of you ever read Conan D20 RPG???? That´s a book for fighter and alike!!!:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

I think that maybe the very true solution to end the "weakness" of fighters on high level (when comparated with druids, wizards...) is to play a low-magic - or even a NO-magic - campaign...

That´s what my group is doing.. we´rs playing Conan RPG, where everything is decided on the blade of the sword!!! :smallamused: :smallamused:

Harkone
2007-02-23, 03:48 PM
My take on the Fighter is two-fold.

First of all, the Fighter doesn't have as many problems as people think at low, medium, or higher levels because barring damage reduction (which is easily gotten around, especially at higher levels; usually simply by doing so much damage you hack right through the dmg red), nothing is "immune" to weapon damage. Many creatures (especially at high levels) are immune to lightning, fire, etc., or have spell resistance, or great saving throws, and so on. Thus these monsters can avoid the magical attacks of wizards, clerics, and other spellcasters. The fighter's melee weapon is always a good tactic, as nothing is really "immune" to it and it works on just about everything. There's no save against weapon damage, and no "damage penetration check" is ever necessary.

Second, the Fighter is one of those classes that's just made for a prestige class. Beyond level 6 or 8, the "bonus feats" ability gets less and less useful, and also gets kind of boring. Unlike most, if not all, of the other classes, the Fighter doesn't get anything really "interesting" as he gets higher in level; he just gets better and better at what he already does. Thus, for straight Fighter characters worried about versatility or getting bored with just more and more bonus feats, I'd suggest looking into one of the many fighter/warrior-themed prestige classes available. Many of these classes even allow the fighter to get a little magic and/or more skills to help him out when he needs it.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-23, 03:54 PM
To have a 50% chance to overcome an appropriate-CR'd dragon's Will Save at level 20, the wizard has to get +12 to his DC from Intelligence and feats. That's a 30 Intelligence and Greater Spell Focus; and if your wizard has a 30 Intelligence, maybe you need to reconsider the balance of your gameplay.

The wizard does not beat the dragon as handily as you think.
A wizard, alone, can take on a dragon if he's built/played right--without resorting to Shivering Touch and similar cheese. It'll be tough, and the dragon is likely to be able to get away if it tries to run away, but that's just how wizards are. Arcane Reach + Irresistible Dance. Bam! 1d4+1 rounds of disabled dragon. Period.

Here are the saves of a few high-CRdragons, Fort/Ref/Will:
-CR 20 Black Wyrm: +26/+19/+23 (best case)
-CR 19 Very Old Blue: +23/+17/+21
-CR 20 Old Red: +23/+16/+21
-CR 20 Very Old Copper: +22/+16/+21.

Here is a "best-case" high-level Wizard , without using things like age categories: 18 INT, +2 Grey Elf, +5 from levels, +5 from a Tome of Clear Thought or Wishes (from summoned Efreeti?), +6 item. That's a 36 INT. Add in Spell Focus, and your DC is 10 base + 13 INT + 1 Focus + 1 to 9 from spell level, or 25-33. In most cases, level 7 spells have a 50% chance of beating the dragon's Will save. This is without Greater Spell Focus, DC boosters like that swift-action Spell Compendium spell that increases the DC of the next spell you cast by 2, and save debuffs, like, oh, Split Ray Enervation (mmm, -5 to all saves on average).
Let's tone the base INT down to 16, not everyone can afford an 18 (28 point buy?) and make you a human. Okay, now only your level 9 spells have a 50% chance of working... that's a fifty percent likelihood of Dominating the Old red dragon. Your level 7 ones have a 40% chance; cast two and that's 80%.
Starting with an 16 in your main, having a +6 INT item, using Wishes or Gate or Tomes to boost your main stat... these aren't things that should be making you reconsider game balance.


I've run a level 20 fight against a dragon. Not hypothetically, but in an actual campaign against actual players. The PCs were a Paladin/Spellsword, a Wizard and a Bard - no fighters, and they were slaughtered. Eventually, the wizard had to shapechange into a Gold Dragon and cast Tenser's Transformation to hold off the dragon (to do the Fighter's job) (the Paladin was already down) while the Bard kept casting Mind Fog until the dragon rolled a 1, so that she could then cast Hold Monster with a reasonable chance of success. So, you had... an okay but unoptimized melee character, no divine caster, and a bard. So, really, as relevant to combat, you had an okay melee character and a wizard who apparently feels that melee is the best way to hold off a dragon and memorizes Tenser's Transformation.
And the fight went poorly. Gee!

So, here's the question: how would having a fighter have helped? What could the Fighter have done to contribute that the Paladin/Spellsword (did he, uh, have an arcanist class to qualify him for Spellsword? Paladin X/Sorcerer Y/Spellsword 10 is a pretty horrible gish) couldn't? What would've stopped the fighter from ending up mincement (or running frightened from the dragon's Fear aura) alongside the Paladin, or instead of him?
Why did the wizard Shapechange into a dragon, rather than into a choker for two spells/round? Even with one spell (plus another Quickened) a round, why did he try to delay the dragon with melee, rather than Solid Fog, Telekinetic Sphere, Irresistible Dance, all that jazz?
Basically, nothing you've said here illustrates the importance of fighters.


Flyby attack only prevents AoOs from those the creature actually attacks, just like Spring Attack does. If the dragon is using it to target the wizard, then all the fighter has to do is stand beside the wizard and wait. He'll get a readied attack and an AoO; two attacks at his highest BAB. And if you're fighting the dragon in an area where it can constantly and consistantly flyby you, you're facing a higher CR; dragon CRs are specifically stated as being balanced for a prepared party, not an unprepared one as are most CRs. Um, Flyby Attack and the flight speed are factored into a dragon's CR. It is NOT assumed you will be fighting the dragon in a cave. If you *are*, that's probably bad for you, since it can destroy you by trading full-attacks--or it can just fly (or Dim Door/Teleport, if it's got a decent caster level) on out of the cave.
Attacks of Opportunity? What's stopping the dragon from flying around to the *other side* of the wizard? And/or, you know, making attacks with his twenty-foot reach so that you won't be able to make your AoO or readied attack?
...why was the paladin even protecting the wizard, who can protect himself just fine with Blink/Greater Invisibility or Mirror Image/Repulsion/Resist Energy/et cetera?

Furthermore, I don't think you understand. A dragon with a 60' Cone breath weapon and a 200' fly speed can use Flyby Attack to fly to within 60' of you, breathe, and then fly 100' off to the side. He's now 115 feet away. Make his breath weapon the 120' line and it's even worse. Even without the breath weapon, Flyby Attack means that your party won't be able to gang up and all full attack him at all, much less several rounds in a row.

Again: what would the fighter DO against CR 20 enemies like Balors, Dragons, et cetera? Round by round? Much less against enemy spellcasters?
The answer is, unfortunately, nothing.


It seems the major problem is not any core mechanic, but a lack of proper feat choices. Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialisation are surely steps in the right direction; clearly, the answer is to develop new feats (or remove the [Epic] from some Epic feats, perhaps) to allow the Fighter to more fully specialise his combat abilities to reach a level unreachable by other classes. Feats further down the Improved Critical tree to improve his ability to deliver devastating blows with a single swing; feats further down the Cleave tree to make his mob tactics more powerful; feats furth down the Expertise tree to eliminate the penalties involved in trying to trip or disarm things ten times your size. If you want to make it special for the fighter, throw in fighter level requirements, like Weapon Specialisation does. Greater Weapon Focus and GWS are not steps in the right direction, because they're bad feats.
"Fighter-only" feats would address one of the issues, yes, but that's really just a hokey patch.
I listed the fighter's problems above. If you made feats to deal with every one of them, the Fighter couldn't afford them all and still be good at melee.


OotS is a really good example of how useless a fighter isn't. How useless is Roy?OotS is a story. It's not actual D&D. Even in OotS, though, Durkon and V are significantly more powerful.


I've run and participated in fights against dragons, too. I saw nothing to show that fighters are useful at high levels. Nothing in your example showed it, either.
So, tell me: what can a fighter DO? What are his actions, round for round, against a balor or a dragon?


Edit: Harkone--wizards have no-save spells, save-lowering spells (Enervation), and can target a creature's weak save. Even high-save creatures liked dragons have a solid chance of failing the right save. Spell Resistance is rarely high enough to be anything more than a nuisance, especially with Spell Penetration (much less Assay Resistance); there are also no-SR spells.

Meanwhile, a Balor IS immune to the fighter's weapon damage. Why? Because the fighter can't get close to deliver it.

Marcotic
2007-02-23, 04:23 PM
Next Guardian


Skill per level 4
Add Listen and Spot to list of skills
add Skill focus (listen and spot) to fighter bonus feats

at 5th level, add 5 hitpoints to your fighter
at 10th level add 10 hitpoints to your fighter
at 15th level add 15 hitpoints to your fighter
at 20th level add 20 hitpoints to your fighter

I did the math, and found that this'll have 10 more hit points on average then a non raging barbarian, and 70 less then when he's raging.

Krellen
2007-02-23, 04:30 PM
The brokenness of Irrisistible Dance and Shivering Touch aren't issues with the Fighter class, but the magic system. Me? I've always thought Irrisistible Dance was cheesy, from the launch of 3e. I've never allowed it in my campaigns.

The Balor's tactics aren't OGC. Therefore, my answer will be vague.

Round 1. High Fortitude save prevents instant death, and high hit die protects against damage. Powered with boots of striding and springing, the fighter charges; 35 damage (4d6+21, for a holy greatsword +5).
Round 2. High hit die prevents one spell; blessed with a plethora of feats and magic items to match your wizard, fighter enjoys a 50% or better chance to resist the second. Balor has moved, provoking an AoO and another attack, or has not, allowing Fighter a full attack. With a conservative AB of +35, fighter hits three times (two with an AoO); 70-105 damage.
Round 3. Entangled, fighter is still roaring to go. Full attack on Balor with a mere +5 power attack; 2 hits, dealing 90 damage.

At this point, the fighter has single-handedly dealt 2/3rds of the Balor's hit point total. If the Balor is not already dead because of the actions of the rest of the party, the fighter might be in trouble; more likely, however, is that the Balor will flee, trying to preserve its own skin.

If we allow for expanded fighter feats, the fighter probably has Dire Charge, or a similar ability, which boosts his damage appropriately; with it, the Balor's probably dead by round 3, from the Fighter's damage alone.

Oh, and one other thing; D&D is balanced for a dungeon. That's where playtesting is done. Non-dungeon encounters will not point out balance flaws in the system, because the system wasn't balanced with non-dungeon encounters in mind.

Orzel
2007-02-23, 04:35 PM
Next Guardian


Skill per level 4
Add Listen and Spot to list of skills
add Skill focus (listen and spot) to fighter bonus feats

at 5th level, add 5 hitpoints to your fighter every time he takes a level of fighter add 1 extra hitpoint.
at 10th level add 10 hitpoints to your fighter and every time another level of fighter is gained add an extra 2 hitpoints
at 15th level add 15 hitpoints to your fighter and every time another level of fighter is gained add an extra 3 hitpoints
at 20th level add 20 hitpoints to your fighter, and add an extra 4 hitpoints per level of fighter.


This is kinda confusing when you read it, so basically consider it like getting a +2 to your constitution at 5th 10th 15th and 20th level for purposes of hit points

My friend did the math, and in the end you have 30 more hp then a barbarian out of rage, but still 50 less then a barbarian who is raging.

Really doen't solve any of the fighter's problems.

The way to fix the fighter is to either buff some of his strengths and/or eliminate some of his weaknesses.

Either you:

Give it feats/class features that let it fight things that are almost immune to normal combat

OR

Give it feats/class features that let it do things outside of combat

OR

Reduce it's weakness to fast opponents, flying opponents, and opponents with will based abilities.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-23, 04:53 PM
The brokenness of Irrisistible Dance and Shivering Touch aren't issues with the Fighter class, but the magic system. Me? I've always thought Irrisistible Dance was cheesy, from the launch of 3e. I've never allowed it in my campaigns.

The Balor's tactics aren't OGC. Therefore, my answer will be vague.
As a matter of fact, the Balor's tactics are (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor) OGC. They're in the SRD, even.
The *nice* Balor opens up with Dominate Monster (DC 27), throws a PW:Stun at the rogue or wizard in round 2, and hits the fighter with Insanity (DC 25) in round 3. Alternatively, he uses Implosion--the Fighter's got a chance of failing, but no worse than any other melee type there. He probably targets the Rogue with Implosion in that case. After a full-round attack, he teleports off to where the fighter with his item of flight will have to spend a couple of rounds getting to him.

You've also got to consider that the Balor starts far away from the Fighter, most likely, has a 90-foot fly speed and can and will fly away rather than stupidly trading full attacks, can use Quickened Telekinesis thrice, and can teleport away whenever the fighter gets too close.


At this point, the fighter has single-handedly dealt 2/3rds of the Balor's hit point total. If the Balor is not already dead because of the actions of the rest of the party, the fighter might be in trouble; more likely, however, is that the Balor will flee, trying to preserve its own skin.

If we allow for expanded fighter feats, the fighter probably has Dire Charge, or a similar ability, which boosts his damage appropriately; with it, the Balor's probably dead by round 3, from the Fighter's damage alone.Except, of course, the Fighter can't get to the balor (90-foot fly speed, teleporting), and can't stay there when he does get there--so the fighter is dealing *no* damage beyond the occasional single attack.
Meanwhile, the wizard's got a 50 to 70% chance of ending that fight in round 1, from safety.


Oh, and one other thing; D&D is balanced for a dungeon. That's where playtesting is done. Non-dungeon encounters will not point out balance flaws in the system, because the system wasn't balanced with non-dungeon encounters in mind.Umm.
No. No, it isn't. That's absolutely ridiculous, considering how many monsters have habitats like "the forest" and "warm plains" and "the Abyss".
"Open spaces" happen as often as "dungeon", in D&D. Of course, a balor who can teleport around a dungeon, and put several walls between it and you, is even *more* dangerous--but if you want to argue that all of D&D is balanced for a literal dungeon, man, you are going to have to back that up so hard.

Druid
2007-02-23, 05:11 PM
The brokenness of Irrisistible Dance and Shivering Touch aren't issues with the Fighter class, but the magic system. Me? I've always thought Irrisistible Dance was cheesy, from the launch of 3e. I've never allowed it in my campaigns.

The Balor's tactics aren't OGC. Therefore, my answer will be vague.

Their in the SRD, you can post them here.


Round 1. High Fortitude save prevents instant death, and high hit die protects against damage. Powered with boots of striding and springing, the fighter charges; 35 damage (4d6+21, for a holy greatsword +5).

You've estabelished that the fighter probably won't die in one round. Good job. What if the Balor doesn't use fire storm or iplosion? How about the Balor summons more deamons, then spends the rest of the fight using its at will blasphemy? The fighter will be dazed as long as it does this while the summoned deamons scratch him to death. The balor doesn't even need the other deamons as he can just keap using blasphemy on the fighter who ran up to him until the fighter starves to death. What if the balor is air born? Boots of striding and stepping wount let the fighter fly after him.


Round 2. High hit die prevents one spell; blessed with a plethora of feats and magic items to match your wizard, fighter enjoys a 50% or better chance to resist the second. Balor has moved, provoking an AoO and another attack, or has not, allowing Fighter a full attack. With a conservative AB of +35, fighter hits three times (two with an AoO); 70-105 damage.
Round 3. Entangled, fighter is still roaring to go. Full attack on Balor with a mere +5 power attack; 2 hits, dealing 90 damage.

I could pick this apart bit by bit, by why bother when I can point out that you example requires the balor and its 24 int and wis to stand there and take hits from the fighter instead of using his 90 ft per round fly spead to leave the fighter behind.


At this point, the fighter has single-handedly dealt 2/3rds of the Balor's hit point total. If the Balor is not already dead because of the actions of the rest of the party, the fighter might be in trouble; more likely, however, is that the Balor will flee, trying to preserve its own skin.

If we allow for expanded fighter feats, the fighter probably has Dire Charge, or a similar ability, which boosts his damage appropriately; with it, the Balor's probably dead by round 3, from the Fighter's damage alone.

Actually, by round 3 the fighter is probably insane while the balor deals with the wizard and cleric who actualy constitute a threat.


Oh, and one other thing; D&D is balanced for a dungeon. That's where playtesting is done. Non-dungeon encounters will not point out balance flaws in the system, because the system wasn't balanced with non-dungeon encounters in mind.

So, what your saying is that the fighter is balanced as long as you make sure the party only fights in 20-20-10ft box. Why would a dragon, with the teleport ability it likely has, great mobility, and very high inteligence limit itself like this?

Marcotic
2007-02-23, 05:27 PM
Finally Tactition

4 skills per level
add Diplomacy, Knowlege (nobility), (geography), (dungeoneering)

At 5th level, after studing a opponent in combat for one round, you gain a bonus on all attack rolls against that opponent. If you spend one standard action, you can confer this bonus to any one within earshot.

at 10th 15 and 20th levels, the bonus increases by one

Marcotic
2007-02-23, 05:33 PM
Lets just say, for arguements sake that the fighter is a weak class, (this is the idea of the thread, I don't want to get into a fighter not good no it is good debate here, so lets just assume the fighter is weak

magic8BALL
2007-02-23, 05:37 PM
So, what your saying is that the fighter is balanced as long as you make sure the party only fights in 20-20-10ft box. Why would a dragon, with the teleport ability it likely has, great mobility, and very high inteligence limit itself like this?

...becouse its fun.

This seems to have turned out to be another "Fighter vs Caster" thread, and Im not entierly suprised that there's a link to BWL 'fix', despite the origional post complaining of being sent links instead of a solution, and a bunch of people going on about Balors and Dragons.

The real problem isn't so much that fighers are out shon by casters at level 20, rather casters become very powerful very quick and should be toned down.

Of cause the wizard and thye cleric can only fight one or two high CR things a day, and a fighter can take as maney as they come, but thats a different point.

Right, steering away from "OOoohh... my wizard casts a spell at the teleporting beast, as opposed to being stuck becouse you cannt hit anything in melee", and not bringing up goloms, against wich all casters are useless, I will attempt to a fighter 'fix' myself.


1 feat at every level except as noted:

+1 bonus to initiative at 3rd level, and every 4 levels thereafter. This bonus stacks with everything else. No choice in this.

+1 bonus to any one save at 3rd level, and every 4 levels thereafter. The4se bonuses stack with everything else.

Weapon Specialisation is given at 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter. No choice in this.

Weapon Specialisation is changed so that it gives +1 to attack, +2 to damage, and stacks with itself if the same weapon is chossen.

There. Simple. More powerful, yes, but that was the point, no? Sure the fighter still cant hit something thats not within reach in melee, but he's still got a bow, and no one can cast spells on stuff thats immune to magic, or hides in antimagic fields, are attacks after the caster has gone through all his nashy spells for the day...

Krellen
2007-02-23, 05:37 PM
You've also got to consider that the Balor [...] has a 90-foot fly speed and can and will fly away rather than stupidly trading full attacks [...]
No he won't.

I quote:
Round 3: Full melee attack with weapons, including entangle with whip.

The Balor does exchange full melee attacks. Blatantly stated.

Oh, and my sample fighter has, for the record, a Fortitude save of +22, a Reflex save of +11, and a Will save of +16. No fighter should be without a cloak of resistance.


[I]f you want to argue that all of D&D is balanced for a literal dungeon, man, you are going to have to back that up so hard.
Got back issues of Dragon? Don't think I can "back that up so hard" without violating copyright laws. There was an interview in Dragon (I own virtually every issue produced since the release of 3e) with the playtesters and designers of the game, where they explained what the CR meant (we all know they're balanced for 4 characters, right?) and what environment(s) they were tested in. They were tested in a dungeon.

Just for fun, here's Sean K. Reynolds's take (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/highlevelchallenges.html) on high-level encounters; seems one of the designers thinks high-end challenges might rely a bit too much on the Fighters.

Back on topic, I don't disagree the fighter class might need some work - the fighter does have definite weaknesses in mobility and Will. But I think we need to identify what weakenesses are class balance and what weakenesses need to be shorn up - and what strengths need to be boosted, as well.

I like that stacking Weapon Specialisation idea. Frankly, I don't think the 'Weapon Master' PrC should have ever existed. All fighters should be Weapon Masters, through their feat choices.

Druid
2007-02-23, 05:46 PM
No he won't.

I quote:

The Balor does exchange full melee attacks. Blatantly stated.

Funny thing about that. Thanks to his size and manuverability rating the balor can make full attacks from outside the fighters reach.


Oh, and my sample fighter has, for the record, a Fortitude save of +22, a Reflex save of +11, and a Will save of +16. No fighter should be without a cloak of resistance.

So he has a wisdom score of 18-19 and a constitution score of 24? What's his streagth score looking like at this point?

As for everything else you wrote, I'm sure Bears will do a much better job explaining whats wrong with it, and I have to go to dinner. Tootles.

Jack Mann
2007-02-23, 05:49 PM
Now, see, the question I have is why the Balor is exchanging full attacks with the fighter. Wouldn't he be targeting someone squishier, and more of a threat?

Krellen
2007-02-23, 05:55 PM
Funny thing about tha. Thanks to his size and manuverability rating the balor can make full attacks from outside the fighters reach.
5 ft away isn't outside the Fighter's reach. It's a 5-ft step.


So he has a wisdom score of 18-19 and a constitution score of 24? What's his streagth score looking like at this point?
Uh, no. He has a Constitution of 14 (20) and a Wisdom of 13. His strength is 20 (26). Intelligence 12, Dexterity 10, Charisma 8. Built with the "elite array" stats of 15 14 13 12 10 8. Constitution and Strength are boosted with an Amulet of Health +6 and a Belt of Giant Strength +6.
Fortitude: +12 (Base), +5 (Con), +5 (Cloak of Resistance +5)
Reflex: +6 (Base), +5 (Cloak of Resistance +5)
Will: +6 (Base), +1 (Wis), +5 (Cloak of Resistance +5), +2 Iron Will, +2 Greater Iron Will

The Fighter's greatest weakness as far as I'm concerned is his low Will save. Fighters get more than sufficient feats to spare two for a +4 bonus to it.

The best fixes for a Fighter would be ways - be it new feats, new class features, or just DM fiat - to alleviate his weakness to mind-controlling powers and improve his ability to close with the enemy. But I'd still like to know what the OP thinks the weaknesses of the class are. It's his thread, not BWL's.

Marcotic
2007-02-23, 06:24 PM
... for right now, I just want to make fighters up to par with barbarians and the like, not fix the MvM issues (magic vs. melee)

Krellen
2007-02-23, 07:18 PM
Okay, and in what ways do you think Barbarians are better than Fighters? More survivability thanks to HP and DR, and more damage thanks to Rage, right, thus basically doing everything a Fighter can do, but better; is that about right?

So really, we need to either raise fighter survivability - through AC and defensive tactics, probably - or increase fighter damage output.

Marcotic
2007-02-23, 07:22 PM
along those lines yes, also increase out of battle utility, without making the class so good you would Never take a barbarian. also I want to make a class that isn't dipped into or if it is dipped its more then 4 levels

Marcotic
2007-02-23, 07:30 PM
The reason that i believe a fighter is worse then a barbabian is because, of there lack out of battle utility, and actual class features. Just about any thing can be done that a fighter can do, somone else can too, and that saddens me. :smallfrown:

Krellen
2007-02-23, 07:44 PM
Sounds like really what we need are more specialisations and high-end feats. Something that comes after Great Cleave, for instance, or something that tops Whirlwind Attack. Having four or five prerequisite feats puts it out of the hands of all but the most dedicated character, but the fighter picks five-feat chains without breaking a sweat.

Feats to "one-up" the combat style feats - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Bullrush, and those sorts of things - requiring 4, 8, 12, or even 16 Fighter levels may be a nice way to give them more combat utility. Fighters are supposed to be the masters of combat tricks, so it'd keep with the flavour of the class. (This is also why I think fighter survivability boosts should come via Armour Class; high hit points is the realm of the Barbarian, and we shouldn't trod upon it.)

Something like this, maybe:

The Bigger They Are [General] [Fighter]

Prerequisites
Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Fighter level 4.

Benefit
When making a trip attempt, your opponent does not receive bonuses to his opposed check for his size. Size penalties still apply.

Normal
Without this feat, your opponent receives a +4 bonus for every size category larger than you he is.

And follow it up with:
The Harder They Fall [General] [Fighter]

Prerequisites
Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, The Bigger They Are, Fighter level 8.

Benefit
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt; this attack receives a +4 bonus to damage for every size category larger than you your opponent is.

How's that sound?

Orzel
2007-02-23, 07:54 PM
The reason why many say Barbarians are better than fighter past low levels is that fighter feats are outclassed and useless soon after acquired. Barbarian abiliites and skill at least give them something to do when there is no combat. Fighters are pure combat and combat effectiveness lower over time.

The way to boost fighters is to boost their strengths or allow them to cover their weaknesses. But fighters can't boost thier strengths or cover their weakness with their "class features". Fighter feats don't boost will, increase mobility, resist enchantment/illusions, nor remove enough combat restrictions.

Melee fighters need the abilty to stop or slow down mobile/highreach/ranged opponents. Since melee combatants are melee and there are few save-o-rsuck/on-hit-suck feats geared to melee, they can't do jack to people they can't reach and shutdown first round past a certain level.

But no one likes my signature ideas because they're "broken". :smalltongue:

Krellen
2007-02-23, 08:26 PM
I'd agree that melee fighters do need that ability. I think, however, that they need feats to accomplish this, not class features. No one, as far as I can tell, has ever claimed that fighters don't have enough abilities - ie, feats. They've claimed that the abilities available them aren't good enough.

Virtually any variant fighter I've seen proposed - including BWL's - could have whatever addition they were given instead reformulated into feats, with or without fighter level requirements, and accomplist the exact same goal.

Marcotic
2007-02-23, 08:40 PM
krellen, i like the idea, I still want somthing that let's a fighter keep moving between attacks, How bout

Surpreme Cleave (Frenzied beserker so I say it can be anyone's feat)
Prequisisit
power attack, Cleave, Great cleave. (3 feats) BAB 12
In between cleave attempts, you may take a 5 foot step


Wider focus (this ones for every one, but it helps fighters most
prequisite, weopon focus

Choose 3 weopons that you are profecient in, you may apply the benifeit of Weapon Focus,
Weapon Specialization,
Greater Weapon Focus, and
Greater Weapon Specialization to those 3 weopons.
This is so that a fighter can be as good with a sword and a bow without using 4 feats to do it.

Counterpower
2007-02-23, 09:08 PM
Hasn't the Giant already helped with this? I refer you to the Gaming section:

http://www.giantitp.com/articles/ruIuiKxNerFBCOi5fK8.html

http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tAIsESE3xc7MFFjrPPQ.html

Don't those add chains to the Fighter's list of possible choices, and add new things he can specialize in? Those feats available made me, personally, want to try a fighter.

Marcotic
2007-02-23, 11:14 PM
thought good, those variants are a bit too complicated

Krellen
2007-02-24, 01:20 AM
Hasn't the Giant already helped with this?
He has indeed. The Fighter's biggest problem isn't a lack of class features (he gets sufficient feats for them), but a lack of compelling and, more importantly, highly specialised choices to take for them. New feats are the best fix to the Fighter, in my estimation.

magic8BALL
2007-02-24, 06:35 AM
or at least a few more skills to help out of battle... or even give the poor tike a d12...

Marcotic
2007-02-24, 01:06 PM
truly all the fighter needs is listen and 4 skill points, I mean, looking at the poll it's safe to assume that the fighter has mechanical issues that make him better then the barbarian or ranger

Deepblue706
2007-02-24, 01:10 PM
No, I'd say the Fighter is fine with d10. He does need better feats, but I think there should be more abilities that scale with his level. Looking at BwL's Fighter Fix, I saw some good ideas - but I don't think all of them are appropriate.

I believe the Fighter should be able to study and do battle with nearly any intelligent foe, and in a number of ways. However, I also feel it very necessary to explain what exactly goes on when he does battle - I'd hate to see the Fighter become a class with abilities that read as "The Fighter studies mages and therefore gets +20 damage when attacking a Spellcaster" or something along those lines.

I started a brainstorming thread for a Fighter Fix, but not a single person posted. So, I ended up deleting it, with my ideas - but I wrote up a thing allowing Fighters to take a number of different paths - they were given the choice of gaining feats, taking new special training features, or improving one of either that they already had...instead of automatically having to choose one at each other level up.

So, you can probably surmize that I think the Fighter should choose when to take what ability, not just which one when their level says to do it.

jlousivy
2007-02-24, 02:06 PM
One potential 'fix'---- give some good ranged attack feats, if the fighter can't melee due to mobility and such, he has a good bow for a reason.

Also another idea along the same line is to have arrows with 'imbue spell-like ability' granted this comes with the problem of one time use. Alternatively a bow could be enchanted with a 3/day bestowing spell-like ability that can be activated as a swift action that applies to the next attack made that round.

As for the low will save (who really cares about a low reflex save?) Iron will- maybe it should be able to be taken multiple times with a limit of 3? so now the fighter has a will save of 12 before any ability modifiers or magic items. With the massive amounts of feats the fighter gains it isn't unreasonable to assume he'd spend 3 of them to help with one of his largest weaknesses.

Also weapon group feats- ie: weapon focus(slashing) makes alot of sense
weapon specialization(bows)... why would a fighter with WF, WS in longsword not be as useful with a shortsword--- which is easier to use?

just my 2 cents

Yakk
2007-02-24, 02:24 PM
So a two-ability fix for fighters:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35809

It doesn't matter all that much when you grant the abilities. They both scale with fighter level.

Say, Intercept at L 3 and Ignore Magic at L 7.

Toss in "Free" weapon specialization (any weapon with weapon focus) at L 5 and "Free" greater weapon specialization (any weapon with greater weapon focus) at L 11, and we have a simple Fighter class that won't be a liability, even when fighting a dragon or a necromancer.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-24, 04:45 PM
So lesee.

Flying balor nukes rogue with implosion. Likely dead.

Wizard Pwnzors balor. Fighter shoots bow.

Fighter goes insane (50%), or wizard is stunned.

Wizard owns. Fighter shoots bow.

Balor drops down, entangles fighter. Fighter Makes attack with penalty, maybe full hits. Wizard Pwnzorz Balor.

Balor grabs fighter, flies away while using blasphemy.

Fighter is dazed. Wizard continues to own. Fighter gets raped. Wizard wins.

Impressive fighter.

Course, the guide to how the balor fights is somewhat retarded, as it would be more effective to fly, stun the wizard, and screw everyone else with whatever you please, as they shoot at you.

The fighter needs more high level combat options, most of which don't fit the flavour well.

The effigy given as an example is nothing to the wizard. Assay spell resistance. Wizard does something. Wizard wins. (I.e. polar ray. 34d6 cold damage. Is that even subject to SR?)

Orzel
2007-02-24, 06:29 PM
There's really 4 types of fighter: ranged, offense, defense, and special actions. Ranged fighters are fine. They deal damage and disable casters fine. The 3 others are outclassed by outclasses and perform jobs that don't do much past level 7 or 8.

They should be more atacks available in the Special Attack section of the book. A leg/wing attack to lower movement speed for tactical and defense fighters. A way to knock foes helpless for offensive and tactical fighters.

Marcotic
2007-02-24, 07:49 PM
yeah good stuff that.

Demented
2007-02-24, 08:59 PM
Or just make all your tanking fighters as gnomes. Everyone will be so busy trying to beat the gnome into a puddle of red mush that they won't even notice there's a wizard about.

Marcotic
2007-02-24, 09:46 PM
hehe, yeah. I think im gonna take my fighter mod (changed slightly) and put it on a new thread, I hope you guys don't mind, but i want to see if I did well in its construction.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-02-25, 12:26 PM
Fighters have handle animal, ride and the whole Mounted Combat feat chain on their bonus feat list. Just buy him a flying pony and he can fly move and full attack the balor. If you're not fighting in a dungeon then that gives you advantages as well.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-25, 01:05 PM
Closet, non-class-feature (i.e. animal companion/special mount) mounts are pretty much too fragile to survive combat.

elliott20
2007-02-26, 12:37 PM
I personally agree with the feat tree approach. and as the feat tree becomes more involved, the feats themselves start approaching more and more fantastic effects.

Aquillion
2007-02-26, 02:33 PM
Closet, non-class-feature (i.e. animal companion/special mount) mounts are pretty much too fragile to survive combat.Hmm, I wonder if a feat could be devised to help there? Some sort of 'inspire mount' thing, maybe something to give fighters easier access to flying mounts, plus the existing feats for mounted combat. Of course, that would overlap with paladins a bit, and given how people often want to get away from the idea of paladin mounts it might not work... but, on the other hand, fighters do have feats to burn on this, so even if they can't use a mount in all situations it would still probably be worth taking sometimes.

elliott20
2007-02-26, 02:44 PM
I think it would be a great idea to create a whole bunch of feats that can emulate other class features in some limited fashion, but have it nested in a feat intensive chain. This way, only the fighter, with their number of feats, will be able to get to it.

Demented
2007-02-26, 05:35 PM
Or just have it as fighter-only.

Feats that are as spectacular as 9th-level spells, with prerequisites to match, would probably be on the drawing board.

alchemy.freak
2007-02-26, 11:25 PM
Have any of you Read the PHB II, that has some crazy fighter feats in it.

If you are looking for a Capstone ability try weapon supremacy. the final form of weapon focus, it is totally crazy.

KoDT69
2007-02-26, 11:49 PM
:smallbiggrin: I have a rework of my own on some feats much as suggested by some others. Here is what I think works for my campaign setting and will be letting my group playtest these. Let me know what yall think :smallsmile: I'm sure some will call it too much, some will like it, and the mage lovers will attack the new feats. Don't matter say what you will, but I tried to use some of what others suggested and some of my own thoughts to make up the fighter/caster gap and resolve some mobility issues.

Improved Feats

Simple Weapon Proficiency
Normal: Gain proficiency in a designated simple weapon.
Improved: Gain proficiency in all simple weapons.

Martial Weapon Proficiency
Normal: Gain proficiency in a designated martial weapon.
Improved: Gain proficiency in all martial weapons.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Normal: Gain proficiency in a designated exotic weapon.
Improved: Gain proficiency in all exotic weapons.

Weapon Focus
Normal: Gain +1 attack bonus with a chosen weapon.
Improved: Gain +1 attack bonus and +1 per 10 levels with all weapons of a chosen type (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning) to a max of +3.

Weapon Specialization
Normal: Gain +2 damage bonus with a chosen weapon.
Improved: Gain +2 damage bonus and +2 per 10 levels with all weapons of a chosen type (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning) to a max of +6.

Improved Critical
Normal: Doubles the threat range of a chosen weapon.
Improved: Doubles the threat range of all weapons of a chosen type (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning). Also grants the following bonuses to core fighter class only:
16th Level & STR 23: Virtual Feat – Overwhelming Critical
21st Level & STR 25: Virtual Feat – Devastating Critical

Weapon Mastery
Normal: Gain +2 attack and damage bonus with a chosen weapon.
Improved: Gain +2 attack and damage bonus and +1 per 10 levels with all weapons of a chosen type (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning) to a max of +5.

Dodge
Normal: Gain +1 AC dodge bonus against a chosen foe.
Improved: Gain +1 AC dodge bonus against all foes and +1 per 10 levels to a max of +3.

Mobility
Normal: Gain +4 AC dodge bonus when moving through threatened areas.
Improved: Gain +4 AC dodge bonus when moving through threatened areas and +1 per 10 levels to a max of +8.

Weapon Supremacy
Normal: Gain +1 attack bonus with a chosen weapon and +5 damage bonus on one strike per round.
Improved: Gain +3 attack and damage bonus with all weapons of a chosen type (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning).


New Feats

Weapon Aptitude - Yes stealing the Warblade ability! :smalleek:
Prerequisites: To Be Determined (Still under construction)
Benefit: Gain the ability to apply all weapons training feat benefits to all weapons you are proficient with.

Magical Defense Training
Prerequisites: To Be Determined (Still under construction)
Benefit: Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana become class skills, and gain a +1 resilience bonus per 2 levels to all saves against spells. Also grants a saving throw to spells that do not allow one.

Magical Restraint Defense
Prerequisites: To Be Determined (Still under construction)
Benefit: Gain the ability to attempt breaking magical binds or moving magical barricades. The fighter makes a check equal to his fighter level + STR modifier + weapon focus/mastery bonuses against the spell DC. Examples include overturning a Forcecage spell, pushing over a Wall of Force, or breaking a Hold Person spell.

Evade Enfeeblement
Prerequisites: To Be Determined (Still under construction)
Benefit: Gain the ability to evade stat draining magical abilities such as Ray of Enfeeblement or Ray of Clumsiness in the same manner a Rogue evades a breath weapon attack. Stat drain spells have no effect on a successful save.

Improved Evade Enfeeblement
Prerequisites: To Be Determined (Still under construction)
Benefit: Gain the ability to evade stat draining magical abilities such as Ray of Enfeeblement or Ray of Clumsiness in the same manner a Rogue evades a breath weapon attack. Stat drain spells have no effect on a successful save and only work at half power against the fighter on a failed save.

Tactical Strike
Prerequisites: To Be Determined (Still under construction)
Benefit: Gain a damage bonus equal to your INT modifier.

Fast Movement
Prerequisites: To Be Determined (Still under construction)
Benefit: Gain a +10ft bonus to speed. Can only take this feat once.

Mobile Defense Training
Prerequisites: To Be Determined (Still under construction)
Benefit: Gain the ability to take a full attack action against a mounted charging foe or against a flying creature swooping at the fighter.

Mobile Grapple Training
Prerequisites: To Be Determined (Still under construction)
Benefit: Gain the ability to make a grapple check against a mounted charging foe or against a flying creature swooping at the fighter to climb onto the foe. The fighter is considered 2 size categories larger for this maneuver.

:smallbiggrin: :smallwink: :smallbiggrin: :smallwink: :smallbiggrin: :smallsmile: OK so an extra +10 attack and +13 damage by level 20 (more for high INT score) and the ability to hop on the back of a charging knight or swooping dragon. Might seem high at first, but compare this to the epic casters and think again. This fighter version won't be dropping any quickened maximized intensified extended nuclear missile storm hellballs but it resolves some of the known issues with the core fighter class. Commense the criticism!

Marcotic
2007-02-27, 01:19 AM
I gave this some thought, and as far as damage goes, if you increase the amount of mundane damage output in a party, challeges become less challenging, so i think anything along those lines is too much, not because it isnt' balanced against a wizard, but because it means the poor dragon is going to be anihilated.

KoDT69
2007-02-27, 11:24 AM
Revised my original outline a bit. Still tweaking. :smallwink:

KoDT69
2007-02-28, 12:36 PM
No other thoughts? :smallsigh:

Marcotic
2007-02-28, 02:09 PM
If you make simple weapon and martial weopon an all in feat, then the fighter (and all classes that have full martial) significantly weaker, because one of there key features are so easy to replecate

Orzel
2007-02-28, 02:41 PM
The way to make fighters stronger is to give them feats that can't be replicated with an ability or size enchancement. The flaw with the fighter class is that all it can do is fight and all the other classes 'cept for 3 can fight as well or better than a fighter by mid levels.

Extra damage doesn't help. Bonus saves doesn't help. Bonus AC doesn't help. The Fighter's role in a party has to be redefined and harder to copy.

Indon
2007-02-28, 04:43 PM
One thing I thought fighters could have unique to themselves would be a "Consider" kind of ability.

Like the MUD command, the ability would give you an impression of the enemy being appraised. I imagine it would function much like Bardic Lore, revealing more information about more alien combatants with higher DC's.

Examples of things Fighter Consideration (needs a better name...) could estimate:
-Armor class
-Hit Dice/Class Levels
-To-hit/Grapple modifier
-Fortitude or Reflex save

KoDT69
2007-03-01, 07:24 AM
The way to make fighters stronger is to give them feats that can't be replicated with an ability or size enchancement. The flaw with the fighter class is that all it can do is fight and all the other classes 'cept for 3 can fight as well or better than a fighter by mid levels.

Extra damage doesn't help. Bonus saves doesn't help. Bonus AC doesn't help. The Fighter's role in a party has to be redefined and harder to copy.

Well the feat changes I proposed would be actual FIGHTER only for the added effects. As far as damage, saves, and AC not helping? Are you kidding? You say the fighter's role needs to be redefined, but that's a flawed view. The fighter's job IS TO FIGHT. My proposed changes address issues with mobility on the battlefield and keep the fighter at a better fighting skill than a buffed cleric. The fighter is no longer outshined by a buffed cleric, so that's one issue resolved. Giving a fighter actual magical abilities would be a cheesey way to change his overall class ability. The fact of the matter is that the fighter needs to compete power-wise with the other classes at THEIR RESPECTIVE jobs. His job is to hit things and make the enemies wish they hadn't gotten into melee with your party.

Orzel
2007-03-01, 09:35 AM
Well the feat changes I proposed would be actual FIGHTER only for the added effects. As far as damage, saves, and AC not helping? Are you kidding? You say the fighter's role needs to be redefined, but that's a flawed view. The fighter's job IS TO FIGHT. My proposed changes address issues with mobility on the battlefield and keep the fighter at a better fighting skill than a buffed cleric. The fighter is no longer outshined by a buffed cleric, so that's one issue resolved. Giving a fighter actual magical abilities would be a cheesey way to change his overall class ability. The fact of the matter is that the fighter needs to compete power-wise with the other classes at THEIR RESPECTIVE jobs. His job is to hit things and make the enemies wish they hadn't gotten into melee with your party.

The only core classes that can't fight naturally or with class abilities are the bard, rogue, and monk. Chances are, someone in the party can fight before you add the fighter. They may not be the best warrior but adding a fighter for a warrior is slightly redundant.

Sooo let's look at the fighter's other features.
... skills?

Making minor stuff (Craft)
Full Athletics (Climb, Jump,and Swim)
Minor Conversation (Intimidate)
Good Wilderness Lore (Handle Animal and Ride)

So overall the fighter class gives the group a very good warrior with excellent athletic ability and good wilderness skills

If I remove the "very" from the sentence, I can add more to it.
A good warrior with excellent athletic, wilderness, perception, stealth, and tracking skills; a pet, and minor spell casting (Ranger)
A good warrior with decent converation, perpection, wilderness skills; a pet, good restoration ability, and minor spell casting (Paladin)


Unless you need top-notch combat ability and major athletics, a ranger
or paladin fit a bit better in the party. I won't go into full casters or barbarians because it's the same thing.

Let's look at our Fighter
Very Good Warrior
Full Athletics (Climb, Jump,and Swim)
Minor Conversation (Intimidate)
Good Wilderness Lore (Handle Animal and Ride)

We would have to improved one of the above to the maximun ability or add more to the class. I personally would let them take Fighter feats ignoring the ability requirements and gain 2 class skills of the player's choice at level 1.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-03-01, 09:44 AM
Oh, fighters; so maligned are thee!

BWL has, o'course, a goodly number of points- especially as regards tactial mobility, which is more important now than ever, and the fighter's primary weakness.
I've always been more fond of nerfing casters, however, rather than powering up fighters- book o' nine swords did a loverly job of doing that, I hear (but can't verify).

Then again, I'm a Conan fan, so I'm not going to be big on foul, black sorceries anyways.

elliott20
2007-03-01, 11:08 AM
book of nine swords actually does NOTHING for the fighter other than introduce more base classes that makes them even more obsolete.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-01, 11:54 AM
Only if you're grimly determined to make a Fighter, not a Melee Guy.

elliott20
2007-03-01, 02:19 PM
well, okay, it doesn't do anything for the fighter class. It does give you an alternative to melee combat that is actually still relevant at higher levels.

KoDT69
2007-03-01, 03:12 PM
So then because casters are entirely broken at epic level, melee is not an option anymore? I think some people are just biased against the core fighter because it's not the broken awesome uber class and it has physical limitations. I personally can't wait for my group to playtest some of the higher end mobility feats to see if it plays out that well. No, the monsters don't have to be chaotic stupid and run to the fighter for full melee attack trade-off, but come on, a highly skilled fighter can impose melee against a lot of things. That's the point. I'm actually doing what I and my party feels is a decent fix that suits us. Most people seem to just invest more into splatbooks and extra optional rule publications than to just do what would make sense for their own game. Between my group we do own about half of all the WotC official books, but we do not let all of the extras overrun the campaign. You want game balance? Tell WotC to quit making more spells for casters to find loopholes or Pun-Pun combos with. And on the note of epic spellcasting, while the wizard up on the hill has a bunch of summoned peons to occupy the epic fighter he's challenged, I hope the summons last the 10 rounds or more to equal his casting time for his almighty cheese spell. Why did Gandalf take a rogue and 13 fighters in The Hobbit? Duh, because he needed to make sure to keep the melee off of him so he would have a chance to be all powerful. Kinda hard to cast a spell if you're overrun by 200 creatures double your size. And I'm not biased toward the core fighter either. I happen to enjoy the Paladin concept much more, like the Hinjo version of Paladin. The issue is how to make a core fighter not suck. :smallyuk:

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-01, 03:37 PM
KoDT, epic level fighters can't do stuff. Take a look at epic monsters some time. Take a look at just what you can do with epic casters even WITHOUT epic spellcasting (Improved Metamagic... Multispell, more Multispell, yet more Multispell... et cetera. Hell, a caster with a couple of Multispell feats can cast several quickened spells, then ready a Teleport to Way Over There as his standard action, and never have an enemy get close.)

Epic Spells that will be used in combat will have a casting time of a standard action or less, not 10 rounds, incidentally.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-01, 03:46 PM
I'll continue to say this in every "fighters suck" thread I see.

The problem is not with the fighter; it is with his non-scaling feats. Spells automatically scale to caster level, so that even low-level spells dramatically improve over time simply by the caster gaining levels. Feats should be the same, and should scale to the fighter's level accordingly.

EDIT: The Tome of Battle handles this well, giving noncasters evolving abilities based on "Initator Level". Maneuvers are how feats should be.

KoDT69
2007-03-01, 07:22 PM
Thank you Fax for acknowledging the actual point I was making. I understand there are conditions most will dub "fighter sucks" but that was not the freakin point. The point I made was to improve and scale feats for the fighter. And fine just to appease the overly mage-loving people, wealth by level the fighter buys an item to activate a null magic zone at epic radius usable for long durations and many times a day. He bears no magical items aside from that. Now the wizard is useless. Just because a fighter makes level 21 doesn't mean he's gonna pick fights with gods or CR 99 monsters. Did thge mage prepare the right spells? All the mage support I see against dragons and whatever MOSTLY, not all but MOST seem to be from the point of view that the mage is preparing fully for dragon hunting. What DM really tells you "make sure to cheese it up you're goin dragon hunting"? It's normally a suprise thing. Oh and look at epic monsters sometime huh? Like the ones with masive spell resist, reflective hides, spell immunities, and/or massive saving throws? Hmm forgot about those eh? :smallconfused:

Jack Mann
2007-03-01, 09:48 PM
If you look at any of Bears' posts, you'll find that his theoretical wizards have highly generalized spell lists that allow them to be extremely effective in 95% of encounters, and simply helpful in the other 5%. Not that this is the true problem. The true problem isn't the imbalance against casters, but the imbalance against monsters and their abilities.

Scaling feats only help so much. It's not enough to let fighters do more of what they are doing. Lack of damage is not the problem. The problem is getting a chance to deliver it. Your new feats help with this, somewhat.

Raising their saves is a good idea, though I'm not sure about the amount. It may even be a bit too high. Your evade enfeeblement doesn't work, however. There is no save for him to pass or fail. They're simply touch attacks. Fast movement is okay, I guess. Lets him move a bit better, though not by much.

Mobile defense and mobile grappling don't help. Mounted enemies don't turn up that often at high levels, and this still won't help against, say, dragons, since dragons don't need to be within the fighter's reach to be able to swoop and attack him.

You've helped a little bit, but you've failed to address some of the fighter's other weaknesses.

KoDT69
2007-03-02, 08:43 AM
Raising their saves is a good idea, though I'm not sure about the amount. It may even be a bit too high. Your evade enfeeblement doesn't work, however. There is no save for him to pass or fail. They're simply touch attacks. Fast movement is okay, I guess. Lets him move a bit better, though not by much.

Mobile defense and mobile grappling don't help. Mounted enemies don't turn up that often at high levels, and this still won't help against, say, dragons, since dragons don't need to be within the fighter's reach to be able to swoop and attack him.

You've helped a little bit, but you've failed to address some of the fighter's other weaknesses.

OK first evade enfeeblement doesn't work according to you, BUT the problem I have with your view is that the feat I proposed was designed specifically to resist or mitigate debilitating caster cheese. I won't even mention how broken Ray of Enfeeblement is with NO SAVING THROW, but the Magical Defense feat was made to trump that condition. I'm sorry if anybody is a mage fan-boy and believes any 21st level mage should rule the world, I just disagree. Period. I don't believe there should have ever been a NO SAVING THROW spell, especially a FIRST LEVEL SPELL :smallfurious: It's that crap that makes me dislike arcane casters even more. There are creatures with spell resist built in, why can't a fighter learn to shrug off magic over time? A monk can do it, so it CAN be learned by a mortal. And how does a dragon swoop and attack without chance of getting hit back? If he uses any melee attack, it must make contact with the character. Period. Breath weapons aside since the dragon can't do it EVERY round. And hmm what about mounts? Last time I emembered there's a good chance an epic fighter could be riding a griffin or even a small dragon or anything else with improved mobility. That's a resource that can be considered.
So to those who don't like my proposal, can you do better without use of anything but the core fighter class and also without adding magical casting abilities? The fighter should gain the ability to resist things like stat drains. If fighters are so useless, how did any of the warrior gods get to godhood? I don't care if Kord is a freaking barbarian instead of fighter, the point is he's a non-magic casting melee guy who made it to godhood, somehow. Who can really say NO SAVE spells are remotely balanced? :smallmad:

Jack Mann
2007-03-02, 09:05 AM
I don't have to make a better fighter fix. Bears already did.

KoDT69
2007-03-02, 10:53 AM
The fix Bears did was very good I agree. Mine was a similar approach, and while stated not completed yet, that attempted to simplify the system to be fighter only feats. I have a group of one advanced player, one who thinks he's advanced, and a bunch of noobs. I try to keep it simple. As for how mine stacks up to his was irrelevant at the time I posted mine being that I didn't read his first. Funny that we had similar thought process though, except he went into greater detail on the magic fighting. As far as anything goes, I don't think any one class should be able to do it all. The point of the game is to be a party, not an individual capapble of ending the world solo with some big dumb henchmen following him around. I mean the whole issue of balance is resolved when the caster of the party drops a greater dispelling on the BBEG wizard and a swift action later the fighter is mauling the wizard. I agree a fighter is much more useful in a party. I just don't see why I'm getting so much negativity on it. I've seen many many many worse ideas that made me want to soak my brain in acid. :smallbiggrin: And no I'm not trying to pick any fight or whatever guys. I'm hoping yall aren't getting mad or taking my posts in a bad way. I can handle criticism and enjoy many viewpoints. Seriously, if you couldn't handle opposing views, why post it in a forum? Having 100 brains to pick stuff apart ends in much more thorough content development. Bears, you always have a solid viewpoint and I respect that. Jack thanks for pointing out his post too. I finally read the post in it's entirety.
Next thing then, we still have mobility issues. What can be done about that? :smallsmile:

Deepblue706
2007-03-02, 01:00 PM
Superior Armor Training [Fighter]

Pre-reqs: STR 13+, CON 13+, Endurance

The fighter has put a great deal of effort in building up his mobility while wearing heavy armor. Treat all armors the Fighter wears as one category lower (Heavy ---> Medium ---> Light, light always stays light, tho). Therefore, all heavy armors allow the medium armor running speed (x4), all medium armors allow 30ft movement. Additionally, the Maximum DEX bonus to AC in all armors the Fighter wears is increased by two, and the armor check penalty for all these armors decreases by one. Finally, the base AC bonus all armors the Fighter wears is granted an additional +1.