UA's Racial Paragon Classes

[paperarmor]

Two questions 1How good are they from an optimization stand point? Are they worth the three levels? and 2 What does it take to acually qualify? could a Wispling from Fiend Folio take Halfling Paragon levels?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Some of them are decent in the correct build. Some of them are never, ever worth even considering.

If it counts as a [race] then it can take that racial paragon class. A Wispling is a planetouched version of a halfling, but it doesn't count as a halfling. In Races of Destiny p150 there's the Half-Humans and Humanlike Races variant, which allows the planetouched Human races to be Humanoid (Human) instead of an Outsider and qualify for Human-exclusive feats and classes. You could easily adapt this to the Wispling, and make it a Humanoid (Halfling) to be able to take Halfling Paragon with that.

[Trundlebug]

The Human Paragon can be useful in a gish trying to tie in a specific skill. Currently don't have access to factotum or other more int based approaches, using HP to make a ardent/swordsage telflammar shadowlord with Iaijutsu. It's not what I wanted but hey.

[Kazudo]

Human Paragon is a great dip. Seriously. Any ten skills to be class skills. Need a build that's HORRENDOUSLY specific about its skills? Wham. Adaptive Learning which is kind of like a poor, feat-starved man's Able Learner. A bonus feat at 2nd. Yes, another one. You're human and you love eating feats? That's cool. Oh, and you advance spellcasting at 2nd and 3rd level. Take a class in something spellcasty and go to town. Then, at 3rd level? +2 to any ability score. Yeah, that's right. You're legit human now. The humaney-est human ever.

The rest are good for their specific races too. Human just is hard to ignore.

[Renen]

Human paragon is pretty good.
Free feat, +2 to any stat, and progresses spellcasting for 2 of 3 levels.

[ngilop]

I have my own racial paragons as well if you wana take a look at them

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?332334-Racial-Paragon-Classes-for-my-world

[paperarmor]

Coolio. So aside from Human, which is friggen awesome, what would you say are the best ones/worst ones?

[Doc_Maynot]

Half-Orc is good, gives access to Rage without an alignment requirement.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Coolio. So aside from Human, which is friggen awesome, what would you say are the best ones/worst ones?

Human, Half-Orc, and possibly Elf and Halfling in the right situations, are the best. Half-Dragon is by far the absolute worst, considering there's a feat in Races of the Dragon that makes your breath attack usable every 1d4 rounds but otherwise an unlimited number of times/day.

[Flickerdart]

Drow Paragon is pretty handy as a dip if you're making a build that's powered by their racial SLAs.

[Bullet06320]

you can also take them at 1st level, as race is the only pre-req
and if you do, u get x4 skill points for each level, but only if taken at 1st level

[Jeff the Green]

Drow Paragon is pretty handy as a dip if you're making a build that's powered by their racial SLAs.

It's not bad for a drow cleric or wizard, either. From Cleric 5, Cleric 4/DP 1 loses an HD size but gains 2 skill points and +2 Reflex. Wizards are a bit more tricky since their 5th level actually gets them something, but I'd rather go Wizard 1/DP 1/Master Specialist than Wizard 2/Master Specialist.

Are there any builds using drow SLAs that wouldn't be better served with a dip in warlock? There's only a couple things based on dancing lights and faerie fire and they're not great.

[Flickerdart]

Are there any builds using drow SLAs that wouldn't be better served with a dip in warlock? There's only a couple things based on dancing lights and faerie fire and they're not great.
Gift of the Spider Queen provides fantastic uses for both Dancing Lights and Faerie Fire. Sweet flashbang disappearing ninja move? Check. Mirror Image? Check. See Invisibility and the light-extinguishing thing are just bonuses.

[Baroknik]

you can also take them at 1st level, as race is the only pre-req
and if you do, u get x4 skill points for each level, but only if taken at 1st level

That is an EXTREMELY liberal reading of
"
Like the fighter, the wizard, and the other standard character classes, the racial paragon classes have no prerequisites (other than being a member of the appropriate race). Paragon class levels can be taken any time a character gains a new level, even at 1st level (in which case they receive four times the normal number of skill points gained at each succeeding level). A character can multiclass freely between standard character classes, prestige classes for which he or she qualifies, and the character's appropriate racial paragon class.
"

Pretty sure you are getting 4x the number of skill points you receive at all other Paragon levels, not 4x every paragon level...

[Bullet06320]

That is an EXTREMELY liberal reading of
"
Like the fighter, the wizard, and the other standard character classes, the racial paragon classes have no prerequisites (other than being a member of the appropriate race). Paragon class levels can be taken any time a character gains a new level, even at 1st level (in which case they receive four times the normal number of skill points gained at each succeeding level). A character can multiclass freely between standard character classes, prestige classes for which he or she qualifies, and the character's appropriate racial paragon class.
"

Pretty sure you are getting 4x the number of skill points you receive at all other Paragon levels, not 4x every paragon level...

page 32 UA paragraph 4
Paragon class levels can be taken any time a character gains a new level, even at 1st (in which case they receive four times the normal number of skill points at each succeeding level).

I wasn't the one in my group to find that, but we debated that and that is how we play it, based on how its written

[VariSami]

page 32 UA paragraph 4
Paragon class levels can be taken any time a character gains a new level, even at 1st (in which case they receive four times the normal number of skill points at each succeeding level).

I wasn't the one in my group to find that, but we debated that and that is how we play it, based on how its written

It is pretty obvious that at least the intent of that phrase is 'if you take this at 1st level (at that level) you gain four times [the amount of skill points you gain at each succeeding level]'. The phrasing on the original is as clumsy as it gets but I suppose the designers simply could not fathom the alternative reading being used.

[Jeff the Green]

page 32 UA paragraph 4
Paragon class levels can be taken any time a character gains a new level, even at 1st (in which case they receive four times the normal number of skill points at each succeeding level).

I wasn't the one in my group to find that, but we debated that and that is how we play it, based on how its written

You sure you didn't leave out a "gained"? Because in the SRD it's "in which case they receive four times the normal number of skill points gained at each succeeding level", which is read "in which case they receive four times the normal number of skill points [that will be] gained at each succeeding level".

[Bullet06320]

your right I did leave out the word gained, it should be
Paragon class levels can be taken any time a character gains a new level, even at 1st (in which case they receive four times the normal number of skill points gained at each succeeding level).

oops transcription error, I had the book sitting right in front of me too, DOH!!!!

but that accidental omission doesn't change my interpretation to mean anything other than you get 4x skill points at every paragon level if you take the paragon class as a 1st level character

that's how it was debated in my group and agreed upon when it was found

and I hadn't thought to check the srd, but it appears to be worded exactly as written in UA word for word

[Thanatosia]

The phrasing is awkward enough you could legitimately argue it either way, but I think the Intent is pretty crystal clear to anyone with a lick of sense. If you get away with 4x skillpoints for all 3 levels because of it, you're running a pretty rules lawyer utopian campaign and there are far worse abuses you can commit most likely.

[paperarmor]

That is an EXTREMELY liberal reading of
"
Like the fighter, the wizard, and the other standard character classes, the racial paragon classes have no prerequisites (other than being a member of the appropriate race). Paragon class levels can be taken any time a character gains a new level, even at 1st level (in which case they receive four times the normal number of skill points gained at each succeeding level). A character can multiclass freely between standard character classes, prestige classes for which he or she qualifies, and the character's appropriate racial paragon class.


Yeah, thats silly RAW and silly RAW is kinda Dangerous around my parts

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Yeah, thats silly RAW and silly RAW is kinda Dangerous around my parts

"Paragon class levels can be taken any time a character gains a new level, even at 1st level (in which case they receive four times the normal number of skill points gained at each succeeding level)."

So if you take Human Paragon at 1st level, you get four times the normal number of skill points you would normally gain at each succeeding level. If you have Int 14 you would normally gain seven skill points per succeeding level (4+human+Int), so taking Human Paragon at 1st level gives you four times that number of skill points. I don't see it indicating that your succeeding levels each get four times the normal number of skill points, it just says that taking it at 1st level gives you four times what a succeeding level would normally get just like any other class. There is no exception to the standard rules in the quoted sentence, it's just worded in a way that it can be misinterpreted by someone who really, really wants to misinterpret it.

[dascarletm]

your right I did leave out the word gained, it should be
Paragon class levels can be taken any time a character gains a new level, even at 1st (in which case they receive four times the normal number of skill points gained at each succeeding level).

oops transcription error, I had the book sitting right in front of me too, DOH!!!!

but that accidental omission doesn't change my interpretation to mean anything other than you get 4x skill points at every paragon level if you take the paragon class as a 1st level character

that's how it was debated in my group and agreed upon when it was found

and I hadn't thought to check the srd, but it appears to be worded exactly as written in UA word for word

If you choose to interpret the skill gain to apply to each succeeding level, then only levels 2 and 3 would net a 4x increase. If you instead apply "you receive" to taking it at 1st level, which is how the sentence actually is structured, then the following level must gain 4 times less due to the transitive property

Gain at 1st level=X
Gain at succeeding levels=Y

The sentence is either set up as
X=4Y
Y=4X

Either way, there are two level types described, 1st level, and succeeding levels. For X to gain 4 times the Y, Y must have 1/4 X.

If you're trying to take the normal rate to mean the rate gained if this wasn't taken at first level, you'd need it to read: (in which case they receive four times the normal number of skill points gained at that level and each succeeding level)

[Vortenger]

Yeah, thats silly RAW and silly RAW is kinda Dangerous around my parts

It's kind of dangerous to be near your raw parts, eh? TMI, buddy. TMI.