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Irk
2014-06-16, 05:03 PM
For a while now I've wanted to create a timeline of the achievements of the Dungeons and Dragons community in the form of a Timeline, just to be able to see how that particular facet of the game has evolved.

FORMATTING
When I can only find a year, an item will be listed at the end of the year.
PRE-3.X
1985 or 1986- Eric and the Dread Gazebo
November 1987- Tucker's Kobolds described in Dragon Magazine #127
1995- Player's Options: Skills&Powers opens up a new realm of MinMaxing

2002
July 23, 2002- Oberoni Fallacy (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Oberoni_Fallacy) introduced by user Oberoni on Wizards D&D forum

2003

June 2003- D&D 3.5 Introduced: a Golden Age of Optimization dawns
2003- Pun-Pun (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1013486) created by Khan_the_Destroyer on the Wizards D&D forums
2003- Twice-Betrayer of Shar (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1007491) created by LordofPRocrastination on Wizard D&D forum

2004
January 11, 2004- snow_savant posts the Fighter-20 (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/891756) on the Wizards &D forum
February 21, 2004- That Damn Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) on the Wizards site
November 18, 2004- Frank & K. posts the Wish and the Word (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=7059&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) for an optimization contest on the Wizards D&D forum

2005
May 1, 2005- Weapons of Legacy suck
June 5, 2005- LordofProcrastionation introduces the 100^10 optimization challenge (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6590.0) on the Wizards D&D forum
August 24, 2005 Zemyla creates the Totally Overpowered Basketweaver (to take out LoP's Twice-Betrayer of Shar)
December 3, 2005- LordofProcrastination creates the Omniscifier (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1481596) on the Wizards D&D forum in response to Pun-Pun
2005- Tleilaxu_Ghola's Terminator (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1033641) created on Wizards D&D forum
2005- surreal's first list (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1008946) on Wizards D&D forum

2006
January 10, 2006- The first That Lanky Bugger story (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?23784-I-think-I-just-dealt-with-the-worst-gaming-session)
February 27, 2006- Tleilaxu_Ghola creates the Psionic Sandwich on the Wizards D&D forum
March 14, 2006- Tome of Magic released
May 15, 2006- Stormwind Fallacy (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2861636) introduced by user Tempest_Stormwind on Wizards D&D forum
May 30, 2006- caelic posts Jack B. Quick (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1062806) on the Wizards D&D forum
June 22, 2006- Caelic posts Bunko's Bargain Basement (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=350.0) on the Wizards D&D forum
July 24, 2006- Tleilaxu-Ghola's Temporal Workshop (http://web.archive.org/web/20070717224217/http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=673975)
August 8, 2006- Tome of Battle released
September 2006- Planar Shepherd
2006- Stupid Monsters someone was paid to make = the best job (http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm) by Jared Hindman
2006- loneknife posts Experience is a River (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1077406) on the Wizards D&D forum

2007
February 2, 2007- One of the earlies instances of the Commoner Railgun (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-35725.html) is posted on the GitP forum
June 27, 2007- Dictum_Mortuum creates the Basketweaver's Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1121371)
August 2007- WotC announces 4E
October 5, 2007- Bassetking creates the 1d2 Crusader on the GitP forum
October 7, 2007- SilverClawShift begins what becomes the first SilverClawShift Campaign journal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?59107-Horror-Campaign-(prev-Army-of-Commoners))
September 19, 2007- Fax Celestis posts that Pseudonatural Paragon Damn Crab (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?57301-That-Pseudonatural-Paragon-Damn-Crab!) on the GitP forum
2007- Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards: Being a God (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1146876) is posted on the Wizards D&D forums
2007- caedrus creates the Jumplomancer on the Wizards D&D forum
2007- surreal posts the Lists of Stuff (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1068066) on the Wizards D&D forum
2007- Chuck E. Cheese (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1164211) created on Wizards D&D forum
2007- snizor posts Living in a Flying Box (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1128391) on the Wizards D&D forum

2008
May 13 2008- Saph posts the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)) on the GitP forum
May 16, 2008- Ejothims achieves 1,067,212 attacks in a single action on BG
May 17 2008- tsuyoshikentsu reposts ridiculous cohort shenanigans (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=150.msg1246#msg1246) on BG
June 2008- A 4E build (http://community.wizards.com/forum/4e-character-optimization/threads/1360801) is created that defeats the toughest monster in the 4E books
July 6, 2008- JaronK posts the Tier System for Classes on the MinMax Boards
August 28, 2008- Caelic posts the first Iron Chef on BG
December 1, 2008- Oldest thread I can find Emperor Tippy talking about Tippyverse on gitp, although it looks like it was first called that by hewhosaysfish, and it sounds like something Tippy had already established.
December 14, 2008- DeAnno creates the Mailman on the Wizards D&D forum

2009
January 7, 2009- JeminiZero creates the Emerald Legion on the GitP forum
February 6, 2009- Eldariel reposts Being Batman: the Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards on the GitP forum
June 4, 2009- Test of Spite is created by Doc Roc on the GitP forum
July 31, 2009- Gr1illedcheese posts Why Each Class is in its Tier (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5256.0) on BG
October 12, 2009- Fishy posts the Dream of Metal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?121334-The-Dream-of-Metal) on the GitP forum
September 1, 2009- Olo Demonsbane kills himself while fighting 9mm in a Test of Spite match (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?123544-Test-of-Spite-Olo-vs-9mm-the-second&highlight=test+of+spite+Olo+vs+9mm) (bounced Mortalbane Voracious Dispelling)
September 10, 2009- sonofzeal creates Bubs the Commoner on the GitP forum
September 11, 2009- The first Dysfunctional Rules Thread "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection is posted by Firechanter on the GitP forum
September 21, 2009- Person_Man creates X stat to Y bonus on the GitP forum
September 21, 2009- Test of Spite, Olo Demonsbane vs. PhoenixRivers. Olo fails a Will save vs. death urge, delivering 44756 damage to himself
September 22, 2009- ShnekkeytheLost's Takahashi no Onisan (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726) wins in Test of Spite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125885-ShneekeyTheLost-vs-Pharaoh-s-Fist-ToS)
2009- Wizards Gleemax migration

2010
January 4, 2010- Darrin creates the Archon of Nine on the GitP forum
February 18, 2010- First Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge on the GitP forum with Heliomance as chairwoman
April 6, 2010- Darrin posts Shax's Indispensable Haversack on the GitP forum
August 10, 2010- Doc_Roc posts his "Commodore Guff" magic jar trick
October 20, 2010- Darrin reposts Cindy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14084622&postcount=50) by Karsh, popularized by Emperor Tippy, on the GitP forum
September 2010- Beholder Mage


2011
October 30, 2011- BrilliantGameologists nuked out of existance by spam attacks at about 5am board time
November 7, 2011- MinMax Board launched
November 8, 2011- Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse created by Emperor Tippy on GitP forum
December 8, 2011- First Zinc Saucier competition on GitP forum with motoko's ghost as chairman
December 31, 2011- Dictum_Mortuum preserves LordofProcrastination's Dirty Tricks Handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/12/lordofprocrastinations-dirty-tricks.html).

2012
February 14, 2012- Zonugal posts the Commoner Handbook on the GitP forum
May 10, 2012- Captnq's work on the EVD begins
September 23, 2012- Arcanist posts The Stuffy Doll Vs the PLayground Challenge. V.1 is defeated in 2 minutes. Later versions take CONSIDERABLY longer.
October 18th, 2012- toapat posts the Ultimate Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258802-Lets-finish-the-Ultimate-Tarrasque) on the GitP forum
October 29, 2012- Sgt. Cookie posts the Dread Blossom Swarm Symbiote (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?259833-Gather-round-children-and-let-me-tell-you-a-story-about-the-forgoten-template) on the GitP forum
December 28, 2012- Anthrowhale posts the ExFighter on the GitP forum
December 29, 2012- Afroakuma creates the first Planar Questions Thread
December 2012- Crystalkeep's downfall
2012- First Weekly Optimization Showcse by Tempest_Stormwind and his Gaming group
2012- New terrible Wizards forum latyout

2013
March 30, 2013- Captnq posts the Noob Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9479.msg153181#msg153181) to BG
April 15, 2013- Cruiser 1 posts Priya the Prismatic Priestess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280365-Priya-the-Prismatic-Priestess-Buffs-Across-the-Spectrum) on the GitP forum
April 30, 2013- Anthrowhale's The Stutter Caster is posted on the GitP forum, inspired by dextercovia's attacks on the ExFighter
May 29, 2013- Tippy's Terrifically Terrible Trial
August 4, 2013- Vadskye posts the Seventy-Five Theses on the Design and Brokenness of Spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?296170-The-Forty-Five-(EDIT-Seventy-Five)-Theses-on-the-Design-and-Brokenness-of-Spells) on the GitP forum
November 28, 2013- Dalebert posts the Implications of Witches (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?316975-Implications-of-Witch-spells-known-according-to-RAW) on the GitP forum
November 29, 2013- Version b0.01 of the Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis released by Captnq on the MinMax Boards

2014
January 18, 2014- Snowbluff creates the Snowbluff Axiom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?326153-Ewen-Cluney-thinks-4th-Edition-was-your-fault&p=16817557#post16817557) on the GitP forum
March 19, 2014- Kazudo creates the first Junkyard Wars in the Playground on the GitP forum
June 11, 2014- Grod_The_Giant posts Grod's Law (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328767-More-realistic-D-amp-D-Economy/page4&p=17613518#post17613518) on the GitP forum


Feel free to contribute more or correct dates. I'm really interested in expanding this, so please help! I don't mind adding anyone's handbooks, I just want to put everything I can. I'll add links later.

If you would like your name to be removed just inform me and I'll do so.

Juntao112
2014-06-16, 05:12 PM
We should probably mention something about the more prominent character guides, such as Being Batman: TLN's Guide to Wizards, Treantmonk's Guide Playing a God, and Sir Giacomo's Guide to Partially Charged Wands.

jedipotter
2014-06-16, 05:17 PM
Well, how about:

1973-2003 thousands of people play D&D for fun without ever hearing the word ''optimization''.

1989-2000 hundreds of people play horrible unbalanced 2E, but even with a character that has, for example less then ten in all ability scores, has fun. There are a dozen or so people that don't have fun, and sadly most of them go on the write 3E.

Kazudo
2014-06-16, 05:22 PM
Well, how about:

1973-2003 thousands of people play D&D for fun without ever hearing the word ''optimization''.

1989-2000 hundreds of people play horrible unbalanced 2E, but even with a character that has, for example less then ten in all ability scores, has fun. There are a dozen or so people that don't have fun, and sadly most of them go on the write 3E.

This seems unnecessarily sarcastic. The denizens of online forums for D&D optimization probably only make up a small percentage of players. Thousands of people STILL play D&D for fun without caring about optimization, and the reason for the 2E 3E changeover wasn't just satisfaction but also a change in publisher. You'll notice that no 3.e material wears that pretty TSR logo anymore, and WoTC is just doing to D&D what WoTC does to everything: it is prolific. Why lean on all the 3rd party stuff in the world when you can MAKE the 3rd party content?

Eh? EHH???

Arael666
2014-06-16, 05:23 PM
There is a thread here that came to the conclusion that Dragonwrought Kobolds are not true dragons, I belive that should be on your list.

Juntao112
2014-06-16, 05:30 PM
Well, how about:

1973-2003 thousands of people play D&D for fun without ever hearing the word ''optimization''.

1989-2000 hundreds of people play horrible unbalanced 2E, but even with a character that has, for example less then ten in all ability scores, has fun. There are a dozen or so people that don't have fun, and sadly most of them go on the write 3E.

Shall I get off your lawn?

Boci
2014-06-16, 05:34 PM
Well, how about:

1973-2003 thousands of people play D&D for fun without ever hearing the word ''optimization'', and a select few of these thousand (isn't that a fraction of a %-tage of D&D players, thereby unintentionally claiming that optimizers are the overwhelming majority, or am I over estimating the global player basis?) feel compelled to point this out in optimization threads.

Fixed that for you.


1989-2000 hundreds of people play horrible unbalanced 2E, but even with a character that has, for example less then ten in all ability scores, has fun. There are a dozen or so people that don't have fun, and sadly most of them go on the write 3E.

No one is forcing you to play 3rd edition, or force you to post about it on a forum.

Kantolin
2014-06-16, 05:39 PM
You should probably put information about Mailman/Cindy builds as well. They mark an interesting shift back to 'casters dealing damage' being a thing, and away from save-ors.

Madara
2014-06-16, 05:45 PM
Iron Chef and Test of Spite challenges should be mentioned.

Kazudo
2014-06-16, 05:53 PM
Yeah, Iron Chef at BG should be mentioned, with another mention of Iron Chef itP and its spinoffs.

Kurald Galain
2014-06-16, 05:54 PM
Also worth mentioning, August 2007 WOTC announces fourth edition, and since many people complained about 3E's lack of balance, an important design factor is to create a very balanced game. In June 2008, just before the game is released, optimizers respond by creating a mid-level 4E character that by RAW easily defeats the toughest (level 30+) monster in the book.

(edit) other famous charop builds to include are the Jumplomancer, the King of Smack, and the Hulking Hurler; and then there was the Gestalt Challenge right here at the GiantITP forums.

ngilop
2014-06-16, 05:57 PM
Pre history a long time ago- somebody realizes sharpening the stick is better and so optimization begins

Kazudo
2014-06-16, 05:59 PM
Pre history a long time ago- somebody realizes sharpening the stick is better and so optimization begins

Pre history, slightly more recent- Somebody begins arguing that sticks are horribly unoptimized and explores the use of broken rock fragments.

:smalltongue:

TheIronGolem
2014-06-16, 06:06 PM
Well, how about:

1973-2003 thousands of people play D&D for fun without ever hearing the word ''optimization''.

1989-2000 hundreds of people play horrible unbalanced 2E, but even with a character that has, for example less then ten in all ability scores, has fun. There are a dozen or so people that don't have fun, and sadly most of them go on the write 3E.

If you think optimization is a thing that started with 3rd edition D&D, then you aren't nearly the grizzled gaming veteran that you're trying to appear to be.

NichG
2014-06-16, 07:03 PM
This isn't exactly what the OP was asking about, but there's some data I'd love to see, just as a timeline of the evolution of 3.5ed play:

- The average CR gap that parties successfully defeat without casualties as a function of time
- The average value of various statistics (martial ACs, damage per round, etc) as a function of time
- The average value of characters' highest stat as a function of level and time
- The average character level as a function of time

I think it'd be neat to see how the style of playing the game has itself evolved, and it'd be useful data in designing future games to be able to take into account the increase in player skill over a decade of play.

Rebel7284
2014-06-16, 08:01 PM
- Crystalkeep taken down.
- birth of dndtools.eu

Kazudo
2014-06-16, 08:09 PM
The Tomes series of books released. That's a big one.

Irk
2014-06-16, 08:15 PM
We should probably mention something about the more prominent character guides, such as Being Batman: TLN's Guide to Wizards, Treantmonk's Guide Playing a God, and Sir Giacomo's Guide to Partially Charged Wands.
Added


Well, how about:

1973-2003 thousands of people play D&D for fun without ever hearing the word ''optimization''.

1989-2000 hundreds of people play horrible unbalanced 2E, but even with a character that has, for example less then ten in all ability scores, has fun. There are a dozen or so people that don't have fun, and sadly most of them go on the write 3E.
Every type of event is welcome, please don't be sarcastic.


There is a thread here that came to the conclusion that Dragonwrought Kobolds are not true dragons, I belive that should be on your list.
Will add when I can find it


You should probably put information about Mailman/Cindy builds as well. They mark an interesting shift back to 'casters dealing damage' being a thing, and away from save-ors.
added

Iron Chef and Test of Spite challenges should be mentioned.
added

Yeah, Iron Chef at BG should be mentioned, with another mention of Iron Chef itP and its spinoffs.
added, looking for the BG one

Also worth mentioning, August 2007 WOTC announces fourth edition, and since many people complained about 3E's lack of balance, an important design factor is to create a very balanced game. In June 2008, just before the game is released, optimizers respond by creating a mid-level 4E character that by RAW easily defeats the toughest (level 30+) monster in the book.

(edit) other famous charop builds to include are the Jumplomancer, the King of Smack, and the Hulking Hurler; and then there was the Gestalt Challenge right here at the GiantITP forums.
added

This isn't exactly what the OP was asking about, but there's some data I'd love to see, just as a timeline of the evolution of 3.5ed play:

- The average CR gap that parties successfully defeat without casualties as a function of time
- The average value of various statistics (martial ACs, damage per round, etc) as a function of time
- The average value of characters' highest stat as a function of level and time
- The average character level as a function of time

I think it'd be neat to see how the style of playing the game has itself evolved, and it'd be useful data in designing future games to be able to take into account the increase in player skill over a decade of play.
Certainly would be fascinating, but the general shape of the graph could be predicted, and it would be quite difficult to chart that

- Crystalkeep taken down.
- birth of dndtools.eu
added

The Tomes series of books released. That's a big one.
added

If you have dates for these, feel free to post

Emperor Tippy
2014-06-16, 08:20 PM
Cindy was primarily created by Karsh. I made it popular but it wasn't my build. My version of that type of build for that particular game was actually worse as it used massive amounts of negative levels but it was fine as both of those builds were developed in conjunction and to work as a team.

Catalysis
2014-06-16, 08:21 PM
The Wish and The Word: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Wish_and_the_Word_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Bu ild)

I also like this one: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15474863&postcount=732

Have fun!

Irk
2014-06-16, 08:25 PM
Cindy was primarily created by Karsh. I made it popular but it wasn't my build. My version of that type of build for that particular game was actually worse as it used massive amounts of negative levels but it was fine as both of those builds were developed in conjunction and to work as a team.
Thanks, I'll credit Karsh. Is there anything else of yours I should add?


The Wish and The Word: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Wish_and_the_Word_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Bu ild)

I also like this one: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15474863&postcount=732

Have fun!
Thanks! added.

There may be lengthy-ish periods of time between when I update this, but it will happen. I do have finals to attend to, though.

Irk
2014-06-16, 09:05 PM
To be added:
Gazebo Jones
Any Campaign Jounrals, suggest some
more handbooks (Dictuum Mortuum, etc)
That Damn Crab (that damn pseudo natural crab?)
more builds (chicken infested, festering anger, running guy)
optimization by the numbers, Incarnate by the numbers

Darrin
2014-06-16, 10:00 PM
2-27-2006: Tleilaxu_Ghola posts the "Psionic Sandwich" trick.

6-22-2006: Caelic posts the original Bunko's Bargain Basement thread on the wizards board.

12-1-2008: Oldest thread I can find Emperor Tippy talking about Tippyverse on gitp, although it looks like it was first called that by hewhosaysfish, and it sounds like something Tippy had already established.

5-11-2009: dark_samurai posts the Utility Belt on BG.

9-21-2009: Test of Spite, Olo Deathsbane vs. PhoenixRivers. Olo fails a Will save vs. death urge, delivering 44756 damage to himself. While this isn't anywhere near a World Record for damage, this is probably the one battle from Test of Spite that anyone can clearly remember.

8-10-2010: Doc_Roc posts his "Commodore Guff" magic jar trick.

Emperor Tippy
2014-06-16, 10:07 PM
12-1-2008: Oldest thread I can find Emperor Tippy talking about Tippyverse on gitp, although it looks like it was first called that by hewhosaysfish, and it sounds like something Tippy had already established.

Not sure who called it the Tippyverse first but yeah, I was talking about the idea way before that. Like more than a year pre board change over when a ton of posts were eaten. I actually had a campaign in it hosted on these boards but that got eaten as well.

Svata
2014-06-16, 10:18 PM
The name of the competition where you emulate a class without using any levels in it is the Zinc Saucier.

Seffbasilisk
2014-06-16, 10:21 PM
Bassetking's 1d2 Crusader was cut down from level 15 to level thirteen within hours, and brought below level 10 within three days if IIRC.

Valhalla (Level 20 arena matchup) likely isn't going to make the books, as it involved a high Cha 'Handle DM' check and a melee-r taking 1st before rules arguments brought it down.

I'll second the Mailman addition, and make a motion for a flowering of the Warmage (Rainbow Servant) unless that's too basic.

If we're going for a full timeline, who was it that first broke down the argument between Greatsword and Greataxe?

Irk
2014-06-16, 10:43 PM
2-27-2006: Tleilaxu_Ghola posts the "Psionic Sandwich" trick.

6-22-2006: Caelic posts the original Bunko's Bargain Basement thread on the wizards board.

12-1-2008: Oldest thread I can find Emperor Tippy talking about Tippyverse on gitp, although it looks like it was first called that by hewhosaysfish, and it sounds like something Tippy had already established.

5-11-2009: dark_samurai posts the Utility Belt on BG.

9-21-2009: Test of Spite, Olo Deathsbane vs. PhoenixRivers. Olo fails a Will save vs. death urge, delivering 44756 damage to himself. While this isn't anywhere near a World Record for damage, this is probably the one battle from Test of Spite that anyone can clearly remember.

8-10-2010: Doc_Roc posts his "Commodore Guff" magic jar trick.
Added. The test of spite was same day as X stat to Y bonus.

Not sure who called it the Tippyverse first but yeah, I was talking about the idea way before that. Like more than a year pre board change over when a ton of posts were eaten. I actually had a campaign in it hosted on these boards but that got eaten as well.
Wow, I would have loved to read that campaign. Too bad.

The name of the competition where you emulate a class without using any levels in it is the Zinc Saucier.
Thanks! Added.

Bassetking's 1d2 Crusader was cut down from level 15 to level thirteen within hours, and brought below level 10 within three days if IIRC.

Valhalla (Level 20 arena matchup) likely isn't going to make the books, as it involved a high Cha 'Handle DM' check and a melee-r taking 1st before rules arguments brought it down.

I'll second the Mailman addition, and make a motion for a flowering of the Warmage (Rainbow Servant) unless that's too basic.

If we're going for a full timeline, who was it that first broke down the argument between Greatsword and Greataxe?
Greataxe v. Greatsword would be good, not sure what you mean by rainbow servant, but I'm sure it could be added. Valhalla I can't find.

Darrin
2014-06-16, 11:30 PM
King of Smack was originally done by LordShade.

8-24-2005: Zemyla posts the Totally Overpowered Basketweaver (to take out LoP's Twice-Betrayer of Shar).

6-27-2007: Basketweaver's Handbook posted by Dictum_Mortuum.

Dimers
2014-06-16, 11:57 PM
I'd say the Commoner Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232822-The-Commoner-Handbook) deserves a mention. Perhaps not the most famous, but very well thought-out and thorough.

ben-zayb
2014-06-17, 04:07 AM
Optimization Related
1. Team Solar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?188138-Team-Solars-%28Archiving%29)(not the original thread), by douglas (i think?)
2. Chuck E. Cheese (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1164211), by skydragonknight
3. Assplomancer
4. ExFighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?265730-The-ExFighter), by anthrowhale
5. Stutter Caster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?281601-The-Stutter-caster), by anthrowhale
6. Stuffy Doll vs. the Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?256950-3-5-The-Stuffy-Doll-Vs-the-Playground-%28V-1-V-28%29), by Arcanist
7. Shax's Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-(Equipment-Handbook))
8. Dirty Trick Handbook fixes (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8846.0), by PlzBreakMyCampaign
9. Tier System for PrC (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0), started by sonofzeal
10. Tier System for Templates (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044), by snakeman830

EDIT: In hindsight, we already do have a Famous Optimized Character Builds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258580-Famous-optimized-character-builds&p=14058241#post14058241) thread. So it's either a good place to look at if you still want to add some, or skip it entirely.

not really optimization related
1. Bubs the Commoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127927-Making-Due-An-Optimisers-Challenge&p=7097263#post7097263)
2. E6 (and the E6 Balor challenge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?160998-Optimize-or-Die-Playgrounders!-E6-Balor-Challenge-Thread) *shrugs* probably)

Kurald Galain
2014-06-17, 04:25 AM
Wait, are you looking for a history of D&D, or a history of optimization? Because much as I like That Lanky Bugger, his stories have nothing to do with optimization. Nor were partially charged wands ever a fad, they were promoted by one particular member that wasn't into optimizing at all (his aim was to prove that everything in the PHB is equally balanced) and his ideas were much derided by basically everybody else. For that matter, the Oberoni fallacy is not related to optimizing either, although the Stormwind fallacy is.

Other optimized builds/tricks include the healing by drowning trick (no idea when), Beholder Mage (september 2010), Omnicaster (february 2008), 1000000 Attacks per Round (may 2008), and of course planar shepherd. Oh yeah, and that floating cube made of prismatic walls that was tier zero.

Eldan
2014-06-17, 04:41 AM
THere was also that one Test of Spite match which will ever remain my favourite, where someone built a Samurai that utterly dominated at least one match. By intimidating his opponents into uselessness with just one of his actions every turn.

Erik Vale
2014-06-17, 04:43 AM
There is a thread here that came to the conclusion that Dragonwrought Kobolds are not true dragons, I belive that should be on your list.

Problem is, that doesn't stop that bundle of cheese, the clause never mentions true dragons. And I couldn't find one, not that I care to. I won't respond further as to not de-rail the thread.

I don't think handbooks would be good to add, except perhaps the first handbook/class guide, and the first handbook/guide compilation/repository/etc. Similarly the first optimized build compilation, coining of the term Theoretical Optimization and when the first definitions of the difference between Theoretical and Practical Optimization was made.

Edit: Also, the first actually completed handbook, there are lots of incomplete ones. Like, so damn many.

Strategos
2014-06-17, 04:47 AM
August 28, 2008: The first brilliantgameologists Iron Chef Thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1701.0).

Beardbarian
2014-06-17, 06:24 AM
i don't know if this is the original post, but you should include the List of Stuff (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1068066)

Madara
2014-06-17, 12:47 PM
Its getting pretty full, you might want to drop some of the specific builds, as not all of them are fundamental to Optimization's growth, and as said before, we have a list of these builds already. You could like that list instead of clogging up this timeline.

NichG
2014-06-17, 01:14 PM
A graphical version showing builds, publications, and other things on three separate bars might help to clarify the list a bit. The problem is the '2003' versus 'June 2003' resolution issues, since you're going to get a lot of points sitting at the same spot.

Darrin
2014-06-17, 02:14 PM
Its getting pretty full, you might want to drop some of the specific builds, as not all of them are fundamental to Optimization's growth, and as said before, we have a list of these builds already. You could like that list instead of clogging up this timeline.

I was puzzled why my Lightning Thief build was specifically mentioned. (My guess is it was just easier to find.) As far as importance goes, it doesn't really do anything that the Jumplomancer didn't already do better. (It's not the build I'm most proud of. Archon of Nine took me... three years to figure out, I think?)

I do think there are certain builds that do represent important optimization milestones. Obviously, Pun-Pun should be mentioned, but there were actually several iterations of Pun-Pun. I think he started out as a Psion with metamorphic transfer, may have been a Sorcerer/MoMF before the Divine Minion trick was discovered.

Then LoP came up with the Omniscifier to stop Pun-Pun. After that, someone came up with the Pazuzu trick to beat the Omniscifier (ECL 4) and get it down to ECL 1.

TG started working on the Terminator, again to stop an ECL 1 Pun-Pun, but ran into a chicken/egg timing issue. The Neo-Terminator was supposed to find a way around that, but it became more of a handbook of temporal manipulation tricks.

There's a progression of builds there with some genuine "Eureka" moments that in turn inspired new TO builds.

Chuck E. Cheese should probably get a mention, along with WotC's bungled attempt to erratify it. I'm a bit fuzzy on some of the World Record holders, as they are hard to track down and hard to verify if they haven't been beaten since.

Some other dates I'd like to see on there:

"339" board created/retired
Gleemax created/retired
Boards migrated to Wizards.com
BG created, date BG was hacked/abandoned
Minmax created

Irk
2014-06-17, 02:34 PM
Lots of good points and ideas all around.

Kurald, anything player-created in D&D of note is included.

Madara, I'll begin refining it.

Darrin, I'll swap out Lightning Thief for the Archon of 9

Some of the things mentioned were added.

Irk
2014-06-17, 02:52 PM
I was puzzled why my Lightning Thief build was specifically mentioned. (My guess is it was just easier to find.) As far as importance goes, it doesn't really do anything that the Jumplomancer didn't already do better. (It's not the build I'm most proud of. Archon of Nine took me... three years to figure out, I think?)

I do think there are certain builds that do represent important optimization milestones. Obviously, Pun-Pun should be mentioned, but there were actually several iterations of Pun-Pun. I think he started out as a Psion with metamorphic transfer, may have been a Sorcerer/MoMF before the Divine Minion trick was discovered.

Then LoP came up with the Omniscifier to stop Pun-Pun. After that, someone came up with the Pazuzu trick to beat the Omniscifier (ECL 4) and get it down to ECL 1.

TG started working on the Terminator, again to stop an ECL 1 Pun-Pun, but ran into a chicken/egg timing issue. The Neo-Terminator was supposed to find a way around that, but it became more of a handbook of temporal manipulation tricks.

There's a progression of builds there with some genuine "Eureka" moments that in turn inspired new TO builds.
also nigh impossible to find, but I'll work on it.

Chuck E. Cheese should probably get a mention, along with WotC's bungled attempt to erratify it. I'm a bit fuzzy on some of the World Record holders, as they are hard to track down and hard to verify if they haven't been beaten since.
Indeed.


Some other dates I'd like to see on there:

"339" board created/retired
Gleemax created/retired
Boards migrated to Wizards.com
BG created, date BG was hacked/abandoned
Minmax created
Agreed


Everyone, I've streamlined the Timeline, Hope it's more likable now. If I ought to remove anything, lemme know.

Gemini476
2014-06-17, 04:02 PM
...I feel like some mention should be made of the Player's Option books, if you truly want a comprehensive timeline. Those made some crazy min-maxery possible back in 2E. Also, darts. So many darts. I'm sure that there are some older articles in Dragon or similar regarding min-maxing and munchkinry, but that's a whole lot of issues to look through.
Optimization a thing even back in 2E, it's just that the internet wasn't quite as developed back then.

Come to think of it, is there anything interesting about 3.0 that has survived the tests of time? I know that Haste was incredibly broken back then, but you don't hear much about it these days.

Oh, and the 4E build that soloed Orcus was Kenshiro Cascadero "Rattata" Orcuslayer (http://community.wizards.com/forum/4e-character-optimization/threads/1360801). And optimization didn't stop in 4E, either - look at frostcheese, for instance, or zone abuse. It just got a bit scaled down from 3.5. Someone who's more well-versed in 4E could probably mention more things. There was a dirty tricks wiki before, although it seems to be gone - I remember that it had a trick that let two Warlocks teleport an infinite distance on a single turn, for instance. Something about being able to teleport and having an ability to teleport whenever someone else within a certain range teleported. 4E also had some infinite loops as well - I do believe that the Artificer had an infinite damage loop that they managed to catch before release.

Juntao112
2014-06-17, 04:11 PM
February 6, 2009- Eldariel reposts Being Batman: the Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards not he OoTS forum
I think you a word.

TheIronGolem
2014-06-17, 04:11 PM
I haven't been able to find a definitive first mention of it yet, but I would like to nominate the Commoner Railgun for inclusion.

Irk
2014-06-17, 04:14 PM
...I feel like some mention should be made of the Player's Option books, if you truly want a comprehensive timeline. Those made some crazy min-maxery possible back in 2E. Also, darts. So many darts. I'm sure that there are some older articles in Dragon or similar regarding min-maxing and munchkinry, but that's a whole lot of issues to look through.
Optimization a thing even back in 2E, it's just that the internet wasn't quite as developed back then.
1995, right?


Come to think of it, is there anything interesting about 3.0 that has survived the tests of time? I know that Haste was incredibly broken back then, but you don't hear much about it these days.
Not sure


Oh, and the 4E build that soloed Orcus was Kenshiro Cascadero "Rattata" Orcuslayer (http://community.wizards.com/forum/4e-character-optimization/threads/1360801). And optimization didn't stop in 4E, either - look at frostcheese, for instance, or zone abuse. It just got a bit scaled down from 3.5. Someone who's more well-versed in 4E could probably mention more things. There was a dirty tricks wiki before, although it seems to be gone - I remember that it had a trick that let two Warlocks teleport an infinite distance on a single turn, for instance. Something about being able to teleport and having an ability to teleport whenever someone else within a certain range teleported. 4E also had some infinite loops as well - I do believe that the Artificer had an infinite damage loop that they managed to catch before release.
Yeah, 4E probably had important things as well, but this is more 3.X and things that had a big influence on that (like Tucker's Kobolds and old books that initiated optimization efforts).

Irk
2014-06-17, 04:15 PM
I think you a word.
Ha! Fixed.

I haven't been able to find a definitive first mention of it yet, but I would like to nominate the Commoner Railgun for inclusion.
I'll put it under the search list.

thethird
2014-06-17, 05:07 PM
It took some google fu but here is the the temporal workshop (http://web.archive.org/web/20070717224217/http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=673975) and the original terminator (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1033641) is here.

I would suggest cribbing this (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1008946) thread. Also if possible try to include links to the optimization milestones.

JustIgnoreMe
2014-06-17, 05:08 PM
THere was also that one Test of Spite match which will ever remain my favourite, where someone built a Samurai that utterly dominated at least one match. By intimidating his opponents into uselessness with just one of his actions every turn.
That's Shneekey's build Takahashi no Onisan (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726), and this is the Test of Spite link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125885-ShneekeyTheLost-vs-Pharaoh-s-Fist-ToS).

Gemini476
2014-06-17, 05:22 PM
1995, right?
Ayup. '95 for Skills & Powers and Combat & Tactics, '96 for Spells & Magic. But Skills & Powers is the one everyone remembers since it's so prone to min-maxing.

Take abilities, for instance. All abilities got two sub-abilities. Strength had Muscle and Stamina, with the latter mostly just being carrying capacity. So you dump Stamina to increase Muscle and get even higher stats.

Or you make a Cleric with Wizard spells and Fighter THAC0 and HP. Yeah. Imagine Paizo's Advanced Race Builder except expanded to classes as well.

Player's Option was pretty much D&D 2.5, much like Essentials (also called Player's Option, BTW) is kind of like D&D 4.5.

toapat
2014-06-17, 05:28 PM
Brilliant Gameologists was nuked out of existance by spam attacks on October 30th, 2011 at about 5am board time.

Minmax was launched on November 7th that year


2012: Tempest Stormwind begins the weekly optimization series on WotC boards

Chuck was originally concieved shortly after Tome of battle came out. The original thread is just gone but it was in 2007



When was the 1d2 crusader disproved?

Irk
2014-06-17, 05:48 PM
That's Shneekey's build Takahashi no Onisan (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726), and this is the Test of Spite link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125885-ShneekeyTheLost-vs-Pharaoh-s-Fist-ToS).


Ayup. '95 for Skills & Powers and Combat & Tactics, '96 for Spells & Magic. But Skills & Powers is the one everyone remembers since it's so prone to min-maxing.

Take abilities, for instance. All abilities got two sub-abilities. Strength had Muscle and Stamina, with the latter mostly just being carrying capacity. So you dump Stamina to increase Muscle and get even higher stats.

Or you make a Cleric with Wizard spells and Fighter THAC0 and HP. Yeah. Imagine Paizo's Advanced Race Builder except expanded to classes as well.

Player's Option was pretty much D&D 2.5, much like Essentials (also called Player's Option, BTW) is kind of like D&D 4.5.


Brilliant Gameologists was nuked out of existance by spam attacks on October 30th, 2011 at about 5am board time.

Minmax was launched on November 7th that year


2012: Tempest Stormwind begins the weekly optimization series on WotC boards

Chuck was originally concieved shortly after Tome of battle came out. The original thread is just gone but it was in 2007
All added. Working on links.

Snowbluff
2014-06-17, 06:00 PM
4e has things like Eladrin Fey Charging, but stuff like that gets errataed.

toapat
2014-06-17, 06:11 PM
wait. Why did the stuffydoll never get Evasion+Mettle?

Kurald Galain
2014-06-17, 06:23 PM
Note that omnicaster is unrelated to omniscificer, and that 1000000 attacks per round is also unrelated to the 100^10 challenge.

Since you've already listed the Basketweaver, it may be relevant to include the Lightning Warrior and the Samurai Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?66567-A-strong-Samurai-build).

And of course you should list the Locate City Bomb.

Eldan
2014-06-17, 06:25 PM
I think The dream of Metal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?121334-The-Dream-of-Metal) should go on there. Not because it's powerful. But because it is one of the most utterly absurd combinations of weird rules I've ever seen. As step eight out of thirteen, one thousand years of history are unmade. It gets better from there, until eventually, the universe is remade in the character's image.

Kurald Galain
2014-06-17, 06:41 PM
Here's another one of Treantmonk's guides (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1145491).

Speaking of which, the two monk guides actually accepted by the community are not the one listed now, but AmberVael's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80888-The-Optimized-Monk-Guide) and Bekeleven's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338524-Bekeleven-s-Monkday-Guide-to-Monks).

Irk
2014-06-17, 06:58 PM
Here's another one of Treantmonk's guides (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1145491).

Speaking of which, the two monk guides actually accepted by the community are not the one listed now, but AmberVael's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80888-The-Optimized-Monk-Guide) and Bekeleven's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338524-Bekeleven-s-Monkday-Guide-to-Monks).
I'll add those, but you can't deny that the one listed is so funny.

Irk
2014-06-17, 07:14 PM
Nope, never mind. It's horrifying. Deleting now, I don't want that to be remembered.

Snowbluff
2014-06-17, 07:18 PM
I really wanted to see it.

2014 doesn't have a lot going for it. May I humbly suggest the Snowbluff Axiom? It only ever applies when a new system is being made, but some may say it's important to recognize lousy balance as being useful/fun.

Also, we need to find out where people started realizing that dead levels were a sham.

toapat
2014-06-17, 07:27 PM
Whats with the That Lanky Bugger story? its a good example of the Stormwind Fallacy but im not seeing how it belongs in this thread.


Also, we need to find out where people started realizing that dead levels were a sham.

Officially, the Dead Levels article 1 came out October 13th, 2006. but i would snowball late 2001 at best.

Irk
2014-06-17, 07:47 PM
I really wanted to see it.
The Giamonk?

2014 doesn't have a lot going for it. May I humbly suggest the Snowbluff Axiom? It only ever applies when a new system is being made, but some may say it's important to recognize lousy balance as being useful/fun.
Absolutely, just give me a date if possible.

Also, we need to find out where people started realizing that dead levels were a sham.
Ha, yeah.

Whats with the That Lanky Bugger story? its a good example of the Stormwind Fallacy but im not seeing how it belongs in this thread.
See, the problem is I titled it "optimization timeline" when I really wanted to make a timeline of cool stuff that the community as a whole has done. That's why I have Lanky Bugger and SilverClawShift. They are big parts of the community but not examples of optimization. However, optimization WILL play a big role in the timeline, it being one of the most explored parts of the game. Feel free to suggest any community made thing, though.

toapat
2014-06-17, 08:05 PM
the WotC gleemax migration was in 2009, the second migration to the horrible layout they currently use was 2012

Snowbluff
2014-06-17, 08:05 PM
The 18th of January, 2014.

toapat
2014-06-17, 08:08 PM
The 18th of January, 2014.

really? it has felt like they have used that horrid (visually its really pretty) layout for years

Karnith
2014-06-17, 08:13 PM
really? it has felt like they have used that horrid (visually its really pretty) layout for years
Snowbluff's talking about the Snowbluff Axiom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?326153-Ewen-Cluney-thinks-4th-Edition-was-your-fault&p=16817557#post16817557), not the WotC boards (which have indeed been terrible for years).

Anthrowhale
2014-06-17, 08:29 PM
ExFighter was the culmination of a series which started on 2012-08-06 with a last edit on 2013-02-02.

Stutter caster was posted on 2013-04-30. I think of it as an idealization of one the attack forms Dextercorvia used against an earlier version of ExFighter.

Talya
2014-06-17, 08:40 PM
Feels wrong not to include TLN's guide to being batman.

Irk
2014-06-17, 08:56 PM
the WotC gleemax migration was in 2009, the second migration to the horrible layout they currently use was 2012
added

The 18th of January, 2014.
added

ExFighter was the culmination of a series which started on 2012-08-06 with a last edit on 2013-02-02.

Stutter caster was posted on 2013-04-30. I think of it as an idealization of one the attack forms Dextercorvia used against an earlier version of ExFighter.
added

Feels wrong not to include TLN's guide to being batman.
It's there. Can't find the original so I used Eldariel's repost.

Irk
2014-06-17, 09:05 PM
Actually, let me ask a question. Should I include things that were conducive to unpleasant forum debate? For instance, the ExFighter and the partially charged wands monk guide.

toapat
2014-06-17, 09:08 PM
Actually, let me ask a question. Should I include things that were conducive to unpleasant forum debate? For instance, the ExFighter and the partially charged wands monk guide.

probably, growing pains are still imporant

DeAnno
2014-06-17, 09:11 PM
Mousing over the "6 years ago" on the current Wizards forum, my first Mailman post (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1765181) was apparently made on December 14th, 2008, which seems to jive with my admittedly sketchy memories. [This mouseover method might be useful for getting other exact dates]

If anyone has anecdotal interest, much of what is in there was discovered by trial and error in a real campaign over a period from 2006 to 2008.

Chambers
2014-06-17, 09:16 PM
I think The dream of Metal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?121334-The-Dream-of-Metal) should go on there. Not because it's powerful. But because it is one of the most utterly absurd combinations of weird rules I've ever seen. As step eight out of thirteen, one thousand years of history are unmade. It gets better from there, until eventually, the universe is remade in the character's image.

Second'd.

I'd like to add Snow Savant's "Fighter-20: The "Gatling Chain Gun" Tripper (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/891756)" (Jan 11, 2004) and Caelic's "6 hits to 1: Jack B. Quick (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1062806)" (May 30, 2006). A few Fighter 20 builds that actually made good fighters. There's no tricks with magic, just solid Fighter builds when not many of those were around.

Kurald Galain
2014-06-18, 04:18 PM
Actually, let me ask a question. Should I include things that were conducive to unpleasant forum debate?

No, because unpleasant and repetitive debate actually has nothing to do with optimization. Come on, we get weekly threads about "tires dont exits" or "yes my fighter can kill your caster lololol", you really want to include all of that?

Irk
2014-06-18, 04:25 PM
Mousing over the "6 years ago" on the current Wizards forum, my first Mailman post (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1765181) was apparently made on December 14th, 2008, which seems to jive with my admittedly sketchy memories. [This mouseover method might be useful for getting other exact dates]

If anyone has anecdotal interest, much of what is in there was discovered by trial and error in a real campaign over a period from 2006 to 2008.
I find that fascinating.

Second'd.

I'd like to add Snow Savant's "Fighter-20: The "Gatling Chain Gun" Tripper (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/891756)" (Jan 11, 2004) and Caelic's "6 hits to 1: Jack B. Quick (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1062806)" (May 30, 2006). A few Fighter 20 builds that actually made good fighters. There's no tricks with magic, just solid Fighter builds when not many of those were around.
Added (along with the Dream of Metal).

No, because unpleasant and repetitive debate actually has nothing to do with optimization. Come on, we get weekly threads about "tires dont exits" or "yes my fighter can kill your caster lololol", you really want to include all of that?
Agreed.

QuackParker
2014-06-18, 04:37 PM
Maybe not the best contribution, but my opinion is that obsession with optimization is one of the worst things that can happen to a campaign. If you use all of the Paizo material and especially if you dig into 3rd party stuff, you can easily craft an extremely overpowered character to break the game in any number of pieces you choose. Maybe your friends at the table, hearts in the right place, built their PCs with an emphasis on the actual character. Maybe they "wasted" a feat or trait on something wildly ridiculous or thought it would be fun to be an orc wizard. Alas, the Min-Maxer will always take over the combats and make the others feel unnecessary out of a bizarre need to treat tabletop gaming like League of Legends. What fun is that?

So to be a tad saccharine and a lot trite, just build your characters with fun in mind. If you are a barbarian that loves to study poetry, so what if you didn't max out your strength at level one! Be the best Alfred, Barbaric Chieftain Tennyson you can be! Be an antisocial bard that only raps the spoken word or a Merfolk druid afraid of the water! Be the ratfolk fighter in a party of catfolk rogues! Be you, my friends! Let's all have fun!

Dusk Eclipse
2014-06-18, 05:57 PM
1) This thread specific purpose is to make a timeline of optimization, so you post is completely besides the point and frankly somewhat rude. We don't go into other threads saying "I think the point of this thread is the worst thing that can happen"

2) What if I told you some people enjoy optimizing characters? For many of us, diving into splatbooks, looking for class/feat synergy is as much (or even more) fun that playing said character.

Spuddles
2014-06-18, 06:10 PM
Not sure who called it the Tippyverse first but yeah, I was talking about the idea way before that. Like more than a year pre board change over when a ton of posts were eaten. I actually had a campaign in it hosted on these boards but that got eaten as well.

I remember back in like 2004-2005 reading some crazy **** you were posting about at will items of disintegration and fabrication.

Spuddles
2014-06-18, 06:11 PM
Maybe not the best contribution, but my opinion is that obsession with optimization is one of the worst things that can happen to a campaign. If you use all of the Paizo material and especially if you dig into 3rd party stuff, you can easily craft an extremely overpowered character to break the game in any number of pieces you choose. Maybe your friends at the table, hearts in the right place, built their PCs with an emphasis on the actual character. Maybe they "wasted" a feat or trait on something wildly ridiculous or thought it would be fun to be an orc wizard. Alas, the Min-Maxer will always take over the combats and make the others feel unnecessary out of a bizarre need to treat tabletop gaming like League of Legends. What fun is that?

So to be a tad saccharine and a lot trite, just build your characters with fun in mind. If you are a barbarian that loves to study poetry, so what if you didn't max out your strength at level one! Be the best Alfred, Barbaric Chieftain Tennyson you can be! Be an antisocial bard that only raps the spoken word or a Merfolk druid afraid of the water! Be the ratfolk fighter in a party of catfolk rogues! Be you, my friends! Let's all have fun!

how would you feel if I told you to take your magical tea party back to drama club?

cause that's kind of how you're coming off- really goddamn rude

thethird
2014-06-18, 06:24 PM
"tires dont exits"

I demand my hover car.

toapat
2014-06-18, 06:26 PM
No, because unpleasant and repetitive debate actually has nothing to do with optimization. Come on, we get weekly threads about "tires dont exits" or "yes my fighter can kill your caster lololol", you really want to include all of that?

I think its sorta a double edge: Stuff that isnt exactly the nicest to read shouldnt be included so long as its not highly relevant and came to a definitive conclusion

Hecuba
2014-06-18, 06:42 PM
Is there any chance we can track down the original instance of the Wish & the Word? There's a repost on the list, but if memory serves it was from a very early Optimization challenge. I think we're slighting it by several years.

Edit: Frank & K. Nov 18 2004, per his discussion about it on another forum:
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=7059&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

QuackParker
2014-06-18, 06:46 PM
how would you feel if I told you to take your magical tea party back to drama club?

cause that's kind of how you're coming off- really goddamn rude

My point isn't that a degree of optimization isn't ok or even good, it was that these threads often serve the purpose of convincing players, especially new ones, that this is a stat game of the same sort as any MMORPG. But it isn't. Feel free to take offense, but I really do think playing for optimization's sake will burn anyone out really quickly. So you had the thrill of building the best character possible and then what? When the party's bard interacts in town, the optimizers yawn and wait to show off their combat bonuses?

I don't mean to step on everyone's toes and certainly all of you are invited to join me at the tea party in the drama club room at high noon Wednesday, but the players that have been at my table that focused intensely on optimization also were the biggest buzzkills, the worst (read: laziest) roleplayers, and also had the least fun actually playing the game.

With that, I hope to see you at the party. We have chocolate biscuits and piping hot Earl Grey.

vhfforever
2014-06-19, 01:38 AM
The first time I recall seeing drown healing was during the Omniscifier progression, though I'm not certain if it was actively used for anything before then.

Chronos
2014-06-19, 09:14 AM
Personally, I'd be interested in seeing, along with each optimization trick, the date of the last-published-material that made the trick possible. Like, for instance, the d2 crusader requires ToB and CCham, and I think that ToB was the later of those two, so it was possible as soon as ToB was published... How long was it between the publishing of ToB and the discovery of the trick?

toapat
2014-06-19, 09:17 AM
Personally, I'd be interested in seeing, along with each optimization trick, the date of the last-published-material that made the trick possible. Like, for instance, the d2 crusader requires ToB and CCham, and I think that ToB was the later of those two, so it was possible as soon as ToB was published... How long was it between the publishing of ToB and the discovery of the trick?

week of. but D2 was proven incorrect later due to insufficient comprehensiveness of Aura of Chaos.

flare'90
2014-06-19, 09:51 AM
Someone knows when and where the Tier list was first posted?

Irk
2014-06-19, 11:31 AM
My point isn't that a degree of optimization isn't ok or even good, it was that these threads often serve the purpose of convincing players, especially new ones, that this is a stat game of the same sort as any MMORPG. But it isn't. Feel free to take offense, but I really do think playing for optimization's sake will burn anyone out really quickly. So you had the thrill of building the best character possible and then what? When the party's bard interacts in town, the optimizers yawn and wait to show off their combat bonuses?

I don't mean to step on everyone's toes and certainly all of you are invited to join me at the tea party in the drama club room at high noon Wednesday, but the players that have been at my table that focused intensely on optimization also were the biggest buzzkills, the worst (read: laziest) roleplayers, and also had the least fun actually playing the game.

With that, I hope to see you at the party. We have chocolate biscuits and piping hot Earl Grey.
I think you may have missed my purpose, and I'm sorry for not responding to you earlier. Though the subject of this is Optimization Timeline, what i really want to encapsulate is any player-created achievement concerning the game. It just so happens that most of those involve optimization.

I'm not sure what the purpose of mentioning the tea party, but I can say that you represent an excellent example of the Stormwind Fallacy. Would you mind if I included this post to demonstrate it?

Telonius
2014-06-19, 11:55 AM
If we're noting famous builds, Saph's Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)) deserves a mention. May 13 2008.

Dusk Eclipse
2014-06-19, 12:00 PM
Someone knows when and where the Tier list was first posted?
Not sure the when, but JaronK first posted it in BG


If we're noting famous builds, Saph's Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)) deserves a mention. May 13 2008.

+1 to this, the horizon tripper is definetely one of the biggest achievements in Core-only Melee optimization.

Sgt. Cookie
2014-06-19, 12:23 PM
The 29th of October 2012 was when the Dread Blossom Swarm Symbiote (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?259833-Gather-round-children-and-let-me-tell-you-a-story-about-the-forgoten-template) reared it's ugly, cheesy head.

Telonius
2014-06-19, 12:36 PM
9/19/2007: Fax Celestis makes That Damn Crab even more horrifying by stacking Pseudonatural and Paragon templates (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?57301-That-Pseudonatural-Paragon-Damn-Crab!).
(Original Monstrous Crab posted 2/21/2004 on the Wizards site (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)).
1985 or 1986: Original appearance of the Dread Gazebo in print (per Wikipedia).
April 2005: Dragon 330 introduces the Chicken-Infested flaw as an April Fools Day prank.

toapat
2014-06-19, 01:00 PM
October 18th, 2012: Toapat creates a ridiculous tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258802-Lets-finish-the-Ultimate-Tarrasque).

(only posting this because other people have linked to it before without me prompting)

Telonius
2014-06-19, 01:11 PM
Commoner Railgun: the earliest posting I've found referencing it is February 23 2007 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-35725.html). It's pretty clearly common knowledge before then, but I couldn't find any posts about it. Most likely, the original was lost to the forum purge(s).


ExHunterEmerald 2007-02-23, 06:53 PM
Someone once used that quarterstaff free thing with leadership...or was it Thrallherd...to make a D&D railgun.
Basically, you line up the bunchtillion followers, all ready an action to pass it to the next guy, the end guy lets it fly. They calculate how many five foot squares it moves through in six seconds and it's incredibly fast.

Eldan
2014-06-19, 01:32 PM
The Railgun itself is just wrong the rules. There's no rules for momentum in D&D. Lightspeed is never mentioned anywhere as having any kind of effect. So the commoner at the end would just be throwing a quarterstaff as an improvised weapon dealing 1d4 damage.

But it's applications for transport of goods and messages are very interesting, as is the infinite line of mounts.

Thrice Dead Cat
2014-06-19, 04:08 PM
I recall there being an old thread on the WotC boards where someone using all d20 sources for a 20th level build asked for advice. The end rest was a bunch of leadership cheese that culminated in fast time planes and the creation of a freaking star destroyer piloted by undead minions.

QuackParker
2014-06-19, 05:19 PM
I think you may have missed my purpose, and I'm sorry for not responding to you earlier. Though the subject of this is Optimization Timeline, what i really want to encapsulate is any player-created achievement concerning the game. It just so happens that most of those involve optimization.

I'm not sure what the purpose of mentioning the tea party, but I can say that you represent an excellent example of the Stormwind Fallacy. Would you mind if I included this post to demonstrate it?

You may certainly reproduce anything I post if you find it useful, though I believe the context of my argument is rather that an obsession with optimization is the bane of good roleplaying, rather than demonizing any optimization at all as does the Stormwind Falacy.

Telonius
2014-06-19, 06:33 PM
I recall there being an old thread on the WotC boards where someone using all d20 sources for a 20th level build asked for advice. The end rest was a bunch of leadership cheese that culminated in fast time planes and the creation of a freaking star destroyer piloted by undead minions.

Oh, I remember that too - is this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=150.msg1246#msg1246) it? May 17, 2008. EDIT: Looking at the first post in that thread, it looks like the original appeared much earlier - apparently saved from a forum purge.

There was a similar post on the Wizards boards, here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1128391). It posted "Seven Years Ago," so sometime around 2007?

Irk
2014-06-19, 10:40 PM
You may certainly reproduce anything I post if you find it useful, though I believe the context of my argument is rather that an obsession with optimization is the bane of good roleplaying, rather than demonizing any optimization at all as does the Stormwind Falacy.
No, the Stormwind Fallacy is saying "an obsession with optimization is the bane of good roleplaying". The two are mutually exclusive.

Captnq
2014-06-19, 11:25 PM
The Proto-EVD Started on May 10, 2012 with The Spell Book.
Followed by The Weapon Handbook on February 25, 2013.
Both were combined with a core dump of handbooks in various states of completion on November 29, 2013 - b0.01
May 23, 2014 was Beta 0.04

Working on the Wizard Guidebook and when I finish it, I'll upload it along with a wide number of upgrades/updates. I finally got around to cleaning up the Spell Lists.
ETA: A month or so.

And if I may toot my own horn, I originally was unhappy with The Noob Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9479.msg153181#msg153181), but I've since taken a shine to it.
Original Posting: March 30, 2013

QuackParker
2014-06-20, 12:53 AM
No, the Stormwind Fallacy is saying "an obsession with optimization is the bane of good roleplaying". The two are mutually exclusive.

I tend to disagree. While, granted, a player might very well be excellent at optimization AND a strong roleplayer, maximizing every stat and ability does prohibit the player from delving into the finer nuances, quirks, and deficits a good character ought to have. Very few can build the perfect, completely optimized, min-maxed character and also have a dynamic, interesting, compelling persona. It isnt't impossible, but given how often it becomes a stumbling block to good roleplaying, I continue to maintain my assertion that is "the bane of good roleplaying."

Exceptions: Those trying to roleplay Superman, Hercules, and Goku obviously might benefit from obsessive optimization.

Madara
2014-06-20, 02:02 AM
I tend to disagree. While, granted, a player might very well be excellent at optimization AND a strong roleplayer, maximizing every stat and ability does prohibit the player from delving into the finer nuances, quirks, and deficits a good character ought to have. Very few can build the perfect, completely optimized, min-maxed character and also have a dynamic, interesting, compelling persona. It isnt't impossible, but given how often it becomes a stumbling block to good roleplaying, I continue to maintain my assertion that is "the bane of good roleplaying."

Exceptions: Those trying to roleplay Superman, Hercules, and Goku obviously might benefit from obsessive optimization.

So this is starting to get distracting, but it seems like you're not able to differentiate between TO an PO.

I recommend starting a different thread to discuss this, before our nice little timeline gets locked or something. :smallannoyed:

flare'90
2014-06-20, 08:24 AM
Found it!
Tier system for classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) on the old BG board and Why each class is in it's tier (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5256.0).

Chronos
2014-06-20, 08:36 AM
An obsession with optimization interferes with roleplaying, but the problem isn't the optimization, it's the obsession. An obsession with anything will interfere with roleplaying. And in my experience, an obsession with a lack of optimization poses a problem more often than an obsession with optimization.

Just remember: The people who post TO tricks don't actually use them in game. Some of us like roleplaying with sane optimization levels around the table, but also like coming up with these crazy ideas when we're not sitting around the table, with almost no connection between them.

ben-zayb
2014-06-20, 09:04 AM
I suggest our little side-conversation about RPing and Optimization be redirected here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357799-Stormwind-Fallacy-discussion-continued&p=17656020#post17656020), so as to not derail this thread.

Your welcome!Thanks!

Thrice Dead Cat
2014-06-20, 01:26 PM
Oh, I remember that too - is this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=150.msg1246#msg1246) it? May 17, 2008. EDIT: Looking at the first post in that thread, it looks like the original appeared much earlier - apparently saved from a forum purge.

There was a similar post on the Wizards boards, here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1128391). It posted "Seven Years Ago," so sometime around 2007?

I'm surprised that managed to survive the purge! The BG link is definitely a copy of the original, but 2007 does sound like it would be about the right time for it.

Irk
2014-06-20, 05:06 PM
Is there any chance we can track down the original instance of the Wish & the Word? There's a repost on the list, but if memory serves it was from a very early Optimization challenge. I think we're slighting it by several years.

Edit: Frank & K. Nov 18 2004, per his discussion about it on another forum:
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=7059&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


If we're noting famous builds, Saph's Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)) deserves a mention. May 13 2008.


The 29th of October 2012 was when the Dread Blossom Swarm Symbiote (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?259833-Gather-round-children-and-let-me-tell-you-a-story-about-the-forgoten-template) reared it's ugly, cheesy head.


9/19/2007: Fax Celestis makes That Damn Crab even more horrifying by stacking Pseudonatural and Paragon templates (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?57301-That-Pseudonatural-Paragon-Damn-Crab!).
(Original Monstrous Crab posted 2/21/2004 on the Wizards site (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)).
1985 or 1986: Original appearance of the Dread Gazebo in print (per Wikipedia).
April 2005: Dragon 330 introduces the Chicken-Infested flaw as an April Fools Day prank.


October 18th, 2012: Toapat creates a ridiculous tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258802-Lets-finish-the-Ultimate-Tarrasque).

(only posting this because other people have linked to it before without me prompting)


Commoner Railgun: the earliest posting I've found referencing it is February 23 2007 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-35725.html). It's pretty clearly common knowledge before then, but I couldn't find any posts about it. Most likely, the original was lost to the forum purge(s).


Oh, I remember that too - is this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=150.msg1246#msg1246) it? May 17, 2008. EDIT: Looking at the first post in that thread, it looks like the original appeared much earlier - apparently saved from a forum purge.

There was a similar post on the Wizards boards, here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1128391). It posted "Seven Years Ago," so sometime around 2007?


The Proto-EVD Started on May 10, 2012 with The Spell Book.
Followed by The Weapon Handbook on February 25, 2013.
Both were combined with a core dump of handbooks in various states of completion on November 29, 2013 - b0.01
May 23, 2014 was Beta 0.04

Working on the Wizard Guidebook and when I finish it, I'll upload it along with a wide number of upgrades/updates. I finally got around to cleaning up the Spell Lists.
ETA: A month or so.

And if I may toot my own horn, I originally was unhappy with The Noob Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9479.msg153181#msg153181), but I've since taken a shine to it.
Original Posting: March 30, 2013


Found it!
Tier system for classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) on the old BG board and Why each class is in it's tier (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5256.0).

ADDED


Personally, I'd be interested in seeing, along with each optimization trick, the date of the last-published-material that made the trick possible. Like, for instance, the d2 crusader requires ToB and CCham, and I think that ToB was the later of those two, so it was possible as soon as ToB was published... How long was it between the publishing of ToB and the discovery of the trick?
I think that this is a cool idea, but there is a lot of stuff on the time line, so I was wondering who else would like to see this? If so, I'll work on it.

eggynack
2014-06-20, 06:20 PM
The Railgun itself is just wrong the rules. There's no rules for momentum in D&D. Lightspeed is never mentioned anywhere as having any kind of effect. So the commoner at the end would just be throwing a quarterstaff as an improvised weapon dealing 1d4 damage.
Lightspeed and momentum may not have an exact mention of the rules, but the prime material plane explicitly acts alike to our world, physics and all. Thus, while the claim that physics isn't RAW is a popular one, it is also an incorrect one, at least on certain planes of existence. In any case, it's a bit of cheese that probably deserves a place whether it works or not, simply due to how powerful an idea it is.

Kazudo
2014-06-20, 06:54 PM
It's quoted enough and makes you realize that you don't need crazy tricks or feats or races or access to any more than core to do something stupid cheesy. Just a few thousand villagers who all agree that a quarterstaff needs to get from one end of town as soon as possible and one villager who likes throwing things.

Karoht
2014-06-20, 06:55 PM
I'm noticing almost no mention of anything Paizo so far.
While not a complaint really, has there been just that little that has come from their camp?
How about the Horrific Implications of Witches (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?316975-Implications-of-Witch-spells-known-according-to-RAW) thread?

Irk
2014-06-21, 10:53 AM
I'm noticing almost no mention of anything Paizo so far.
While not a complaint really, has there been just that little that has come from their camp?
How about the Horrific Implications of Witches (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?316975-Implications-of-Witch-spells-known-according-to-RAW) thread?
Added. Any Paizo is welcome as well.

Spuddles
2014-06-21, 09:06 PM
An idle musing- I wonder how fast the ask your DM camp in PF will become standard tricks. Since 3.5 stopped publishing, things like the Magic Blooded template and Dragon Magazine stuff has become pretty standard optimization advice. I wonder if eventually a Drunk Advanced Human will start being the standard recommended LA0 template stack in PF. Drunk probably isnt a 1st party template, so maybe bad example.


9/19/2007: Fax Celestis makes That Damn Crab even more horrifying by stacking Pseudonatural and Paragon templates (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?57301-That-Pseudonatural-Paragon-Damn-Crab!).
(Original Monstrous Crab posted 2/21/2004 on the Wizards site (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)).
1985 or 1986: Original appearance of the Dread Gazebo in print (per Wikipedia).
April 2005: Dragon 330 introduces the Chicken-Infested flaw as an April Fools Day prank.

The exploitativeness of Pseudonatural & Paragon have been known since before being slapped on the advanced crab. One of the earliest was a pre-mailman challenge that had nigh-unbreakable SR. Wizards couldnt hurt it because there was to much SR. Dont remember anything more specific than that, though.

Of course, the nastiness of that crab is due to template stacking.

Irk
2014-06-21, 10:03 PM
An idle musing- I wonder how fast the ask your DM camp in PF will become standard tricks. Since 3.5 stopped publishing, things like the Magic Blooded template and Dragon Magazine stuff has become pretty standard optimization advice. I wonder if eventually a Drunk Advanced Human will start being the standard recommended LA0 template stack in PF. Drunk probably isnt a 1st party template, so maybe bad example.
3rd party is much more accepted in PF, I think, so that's a rather fitting example. I think it's going to be interesting to see how that changes in the next 2 or 3 years.

The exploitativeness of Pseudonatural & Paragon have been known since before being slapped on the advanced crab. One of the earliest was a pre-mailman challenge that had nigh-unbreakable SR. Wizards couldnt hurt it because there was to much SR. Dont remember anything more specific than that, though.

Of course, the nastiness of that crab is due to template stacking.
If anyone finds that, I'd love to add it. I think the Fax crab is a good example because that damn crab was already an iconic monster, though.

Chronos
2014-06-21, 10:05 PM
Personally, I think that That Pseudonatural Paragon Damn Crab is a lot less impressive than the original. The original's claim to fame wasn't that it was powerful in the grand scheme of things, just that it was powerful for its CR. Stacking templates on it to pump its CR well into epic territory raises the bar considerably, and makes it into a reasonable or even underpowered monster for its new CR.

Irk
2014-06-21, 11:55 PM
Personally, I think that That Pseudonatural Paragon Damn Crab is a lot less impressive than the original. The original's claim to fame wasn't that it was powerful in the grand scheme of things, just that it was powerful for its CR. Stacking templates on it to pump its CR well into epic territory raises the bar considerably, and makes it into a reasonable or even underpowered monster for its new CR.
Well, the OP of that thread hasn't weighed in on it, so I can remove it if you'd like. Personally, i agree that the original crab was impressive, Fax's was more of a joke, but it can be removed if necessary. Just so people know, I keep every item that I've removed just in case it becomes relevant later, so it isn't an inconvenience to repost them if necessary.

toapat
2014-06-22, 12:46 AM
i say keep the Pseudonatural Paragon Damn crab in unless you can find earlier threads applying the pair of templates to something

Irk
2014-06-25, 09:32 PM
It has been a while, and though I really hate to bump this thread, I wanted to make it as complete as possible, so I was hoping that there would be some other things that people could think of to add.

Karoht
2014-06-25, 09:44 PM
I wish there was more I could add from Paizo. Nothing really sticks out that 3.5 didn't already do.

Something to consider for the timeline. When did Monk Monday's start and when did they kind of drop off? I guess I'm asking when the Monk-Hate began.

How about when DMPC's first started getting criticized? Probably hard to pin down, but maybe some intrepid google-fu master can figure it out.
While I'm at it, I might as well ask, who put the bop in the bop-shoo-bop-shoo-bop?

Telonius
2014-06-25, 10:19 PM
When did Monk Monday's start and when did they kind of drop off? I guess I'm asking when the Monk-Hate began.


I think the most famous example of it falls under the forum's "don't glorify/discuss banned posters" rule. (Probably, anyway - I can't remember if the individual was actually banned or just came really close to it).

Karoht
2014-06-25, 10:39 PM
I think the most famous example of it falls under the forum's "don't glorify/discuss banned posters" rule. (Probably, anyway - I can't remember if the individual was actually banned or just came really close to it).That bad huh? Ouch. Sounds memorable, didn't realize I was treading close to forum rules territory.

Randomly, does Lucy Lawless and the trope coddifier of "A wizard did it" seem relevant enough to mention on the timeline? Or is that one a bit too far and away from gaming, closer to pop culture?

georgie_leech
2014-06-25, 10:44 PM
Randomly, does Lucy Lawless and the trope coddifier of "A wizard did it" seem relevant enough to mention on the timeline? Or is that one a bit too far and away from gaming, closer to pop culture?

Probably pop culture; I see that phrase anywhere comedic fantasy exists.

Thrice Dead Cat
2014-06-26, 10:38 AM
I haven't been able to find it, so it may take using The Wayback Machine to search for it, but the template talks reminded me about some posters attempting to stat up a salmon capable of reliably hitting the DC 80 swim check necessary to swim up a waterfall. I've looked through a few books, so I can't tell which aquatic animal they used to model the salmon, but I know it involved silly amounts of templates.

Kurald Galain
2014-06-26, 10:56 AM
I guess I'm asking when the Monk-Hate began.

Before I registered. Yes, back in 2007 we already had frequent and repetitive debates about monks.

Eldan
2014-06-26, 12:47 PM
And I'd assume that the first DMPC probably came into existence, oh, three days after the first edition of D&D hit the open market.

Karoht
2014-06-26, 01:50 PM
And I'd assume that the first DMPC probably came into existence, oh, three days after the first edition of D&D hit the open market.Likely. I was more curious as to when the first big famous/notorious rant or argument denounced them. That was more my suggestion, if it's even attainable.
IE-The Tier System existed before JaronK posted about it. JaronK is credited with one of those early posts. Chances are, other people talked about the Tier System before JaronK, but his post was famous/notorious.

Xander_Phoenix
2014-06-26, 03:29 PM
I think Cruiser1's Priya (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280365-Priya-the-Prismatic-Priestess-Buffs-Across-the-Spectrum) is worth mentioning.

Irk
2014-06-26, 04:07 PM
I think Cruiser1's Priya (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280365-Priya-the-Prismatic-Priestess-Buffs-Across-the-Spectrum) is worth mentioning.
Yes! I've been meaning to do so. Also, I just realized that it is redundant to include the year in each date. I am going to keep that so that if people want to ever quote the timeline, they don't have to specify the year on their own (not that I expect that to happen, but I might do it myself).

9mm
2014-06-26, 05:11 PM
I'll go try and find the second time Olo Demonsbane killed himself due to me bouncing a mortal bane voratious dispelling.

Found IT! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?123544-Test-of-Spite-Olo-vs-9mm-the-second&highlight=test+of+spite+Olo+vs+9mm)

Fighting Olo was always hillarious, as we never, ever really got to see what the other could do due to one-shoting eachother.

Karsh
2014-06-27, 07:00 AM
Wow, I'm honored to show up in some pretty rarefied air, here.

Cindy was a lot of fun, wasn't she? My favorite part was how she could kill a Xixecal in one round with cold damage.

It's kind of ironic in that we originally created her as a concrete example of the overpoweredness of Wizards rather than the standard Schrodinger's Wizard back in the day, but when I lost my TangledWeb account a couple of years ago, she sort of became a Schrodinger's Wizard herself. Darrin was evidently kind enough to salvage the build, somehow, which can be seen here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14084622&postcount=50)

Graypairofsocks
2014-06-27, 08:31 AM
I don't think that Body Outside Body has been mentioned yet.

I think this may be the origin of it: link (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=6m2692dm0mas69cl3dv7buqdk2&topic=663.msg3637#msg3637).

I also found this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?246489-3-5-New-TO-abuses&p=13415288#post13415288) which elaborates it a bit.

toapat
2014-06-27, 01:27 PM
Vadskye's analysis of what is wrong with spellcasting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?296170-The-Forty-Five-(EDIT-Seventy-Five)-Theses-on-the-Design-and-Brokenness-of-Spells)

Irk
2014-06-27, 02:51 PM
I'll go try and find the second time Olo Demonsbane killed himself due to me bouncing a mortal bane voratious dispelling.

Found IT! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?123544-Test-of-Spite-Olo-vs-9mm-the-second&highlight=test+of+spite+Olo+vs+9mm)

Fighting Olo was always hillarious, as we never, ever really got to see what the other could do due to one-shoting eachother.
Heh, added. I'm really sad I was not around for these, they seemed like a lot of fun. Why don't they happen anymore?


Wow, I'm honored to show up in some pretty rarefied air, here.

Cindy was a lot of fun, wasn't she? My favorite part was how she could kill a Xixecal in one round with cold damage.

It's kind of ironic in that we originally created her as a concrete example of the overpoweredness of Wizards rather than the standard Schrodinger's Wizard back in the day, but when I lost my TangledWeb account a couple of years ago, she sort of became a Schrodinger's Wizard herself. Darrin was evidently kind enough to salvage the build, somehow, which can be seen here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14084622&postcount=50)
I just wish I could provide a greater degree of recognition. I'm glad you appreciate it. I still wish I could have known this forum existed when all this was going on.


I don't think that Body Outside Body has been mentioned yet.

I think this may be the origin of it: link (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=6m2692dm0mas69cl3dv7buqdk2&topic=663.msg3637#msg3637).

I also found this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?246489-3-5-New-TO-abuses&p=13415288#post13415288) which elaborates it a bit.
I appreciate that you tracked those down, but since it is essentially reposting of LoP's Dirty Tricks, I won't be including it solely for the reason that I already have one of those. I really hope this doesn't come off as unkind, I'm happy to add them if you would prefer.


Vadskye's analysis of what is wrong with spellcasting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?296170-The-Forty-Five-(EDIT-Seventy-Five)-Theses-on-the-Design-and-Brokenness-of-Spells)
Huh, never seen that before. added.

Irk
2014-06-28, 12:12 AM
added the original Experience is a River (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1077406).

Irk
2014-06-28, 04:57 PM
Added Grod's Law (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328767-More-realistic-D-amp-D-Economy/page4&p=17613518#post17613518).

9mm
2014-06-28, 05:05 PM
Heh, added. I'm really sad I was not around for these, they seemed like a lot of fun. Why don't they happen anymore?


The workload on the sheet checkers was quite frankly waaaaay to high. More characters than anyone could actually reasonably go through were getting submitted. The fact that all of them also ended up on the Legend dev team also taxxed their limited free time didn't help. Finally Doc couldn't get anyone to DM the dungeons the winners were supposed to end up in.

In short, not enough judges and our decision to write Legend.

Irk
2014-06-28, 05:26 PM
The workload on the sheet checkers was quite frankly waaaaay to high. More characters than anyone could actually reasonably go through were getting submitted. The fact that all of them also ended up on the Legend dev team also taxxed their limited free time didn't help. Finally Doc couldn't get anyone to DM the dungeons the winners were supposed to end up in.

In short, not enough judges and our decision to write Legend.
Well, it's definitely understandable, I couldn't even imagine managing such an event. They seemed like a lot of fun, though.
I'm not sure what Legend is, but that's because I don;t know much

Snowbluff
2014-06-28, 06:57 PM
Added Grod's Law (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328767-More-realistic-D-amp-D-Economy/page4&p=17613518#post17613518).

Oh thank god. That one is important.

137ben
2014-06-29, 12:16 AM
Also, sigged Grod's law. I feel like it is the perfect response to more than half of what Paizo puts out and a (somewhat smaller) chunk of what WotC put out.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-06-29, 12:22 AM
Minor note: shouldn't it be "GitP forums," not "OOtS forums?"


Oh thank god. That one is important.

Also, sigged Grod's law.
Aww, you guys :smallredface:

Irk
2014-06-29, 02:58 AM
Minor note: shouldn't it be "GitP forums," not "OOtS forums?"

Good point. Changing now.

Graypairofsocks
2014-06-29, 04:21 AM
I appreciate that you tracked those down, but since it is essentially reposting of LoP's Dirty Tricks, I won't be including it solely for the reason that I already have one of those. I really hope this doesn't come off as unkind, I'm happy to add them if you would prefer.

Oh no problem, I didn't notice that you mentioned it in the opening post.

One thing though: I think you may have forgot to post a link for his handbook though.

Irk
2014-06-29, 05:28 PM
Oh no problem, I didn't notice that you mentioned it in the opening post.

One thing though: I think you may have forgot to post a link for his handbook though.
Thanks! Fixed that.

137ben
2014-07-13, 08:08 PM
Now that it has been used on multiple threads, is the coining of the word "rudisplorking" worth adding to the timeline?
:smalltongue:

Snowbluff
2014-07-13, 08:15 PM
Now that it has been used on multiple threads, is the coining of the word "rudisplorking" worth adding to the timeline?
:smalltongue:

What is that?

Irk
2014-07-13, 08:49 PM
Now that it has been used on multiple threads, is the coining of the word "rudisplorking" worth adding to the timeline?
:smalltongue:
yes!

What is that?
It was from the "can you cheat a d&d thread" by Kazudo:

The point is that if YOU call it cheating at your table, then it's cheating at your table. If Slipperychicken calls it cheesing at their table, then it's cheesing at that table. If I call it exceptional cleverness at my table, then it's exceptional cleverness at my table. If someone else calls it rudisplorking at their table, then it's rudisplorking at their table.

Snowbluff
2014-07-13, 08:50 PM
I can't help but feel like there's already a word for this. :smalltongue:

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-13, 08:51 PM
Now that it has been used on multiple threads, is the coining of the word "rudisplorking" worth adding to the timeline?
:smalltongue:
Has it been used in non-jedipotter threads?

Irk
2014-07-13, 08:53 PM
Has it been used in non-jedipotter threads?
Yes, but only briefly, and as a joke. I can remove it if you guys'd like, I just thought it was kinds funny. (But really np, if you'd prefer it another way.)

Snowbluff
2014-07-13, 09:00 PM
Didn't we avoid other material on a similiar basis? I mean, I think it sounds a little funny, but it might not fit the thread.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-13, 09:35 PM
Yes, but only briefly, and as a joke. I can remove it if you guys'd like, I just thought it was kinds funny. (But really np, if you'd prefer it another way.)
Yeah, my thought is that it's a joke thing, coined recently pretty much only used in one unimportant thread. If it spreads or sticks around, it can go back in, but for now it seems kind of inappropriate.

Irk
2014-07-13, 10:25 PM
Didn't we avoid other material on a similiar basis? I mean, I think it sounds a little funny, but it might not fit the thread.

Yeah, my thought is that it's a joke thing, coined recently pretty much only used in one unimportant thread. If it spreads or sticks around, it can go back in, but for now it seems kind of inappropriate.
Actually, you're right, that would be inconsistent, sorry about that. fixed.

Erik Vale
2014-07-13, 11:17 PM
The Railgun itself is just wrong the rules. There's no rules for momentum in D&D. Lightspeed is never mentioned anywhere as having any kind of effect. So the commoner at the end would just be throwing a quarterstaff as an improvised weapon dealing 1d4 damage.

But it's applications for transport of goods and messages are very interesting, as is the infinite line of mounts.

DnD does however have the rule that real life physics etc works where the rules don't say otherwise. Of course, DM just rule 0's that passing it along actually takes some time, so you're not lightspeeding a quaterstaff by passing it along a line.

toapat
2014-07-13, 11:28 PM
DnD does however have the rule that real life physics etc works where the rules don't say otherwise. Of course, DM just rule 0's that passing it along actually takes some time, so you're not lightspeeding a quaterstaff by passing it along a line.

Following the RAW physics is a cleaner way to break the railgun, why people need fancy ways on the internet to do so is insanity. Its an amusing idea but its just an idea

EjoThims
2014-07-14, 12:37 AM
Just got pointed to this thread. Thanks for including my build. :D

Lans
2014-07-14, 03:55 AM
Didn't read entire thread- Didn't Snow Savant also propose SOD over fireballs back in the 3.0 days?

Norin
2014-07-14, 05:38 AM
If this has not been mentioned yet, I suggest The Lightning Thief (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?142080-3-5-The-Lightning-Thief-Epic-Sleight-of-Hand-Abuse) by Darrin.

Shinken
2014-07-14, 09:39 AM
I think anything in the CO thread of world records deserves to be mentioned.