A skill Houserule

[paperarmor]

Not having a skill as a class skill is punished twice once by spending 2 Skill points and again by only allowing half max ranks. For my next campagin as DM I want to drop one of them because that's frankly dumb. I'm leaning towards the first but what do you guys/gals think?

[georgie_leech]

If I was going to drop one, it would be the cap, given that it seems to me that having a hard time learning is better modeled by increased effort rather than a lower maximum ability. However it might help to know what you hope to accomplish with this change. For instance, I would have it be the other way around if I was trying to make it easier for characters to dabble in a multitude of skills; low skill caps with equal investment represent dabbling better than a concerted effort to learn a skill.

[Alex12]

The Able Learner feat does what you're suggesting.
In Pathfinder, all skills have the same cost and cap, but the first point you put into a class skill grants an additional +3 bonus.

[rexx1888]

the first option is good. Also consider making untrained skills just be class skills for all classes... though, i would do one or the other, not both. You dont want to break rogues or bards with your change(though i think they both get a boost if you make untrained skills class skills for everyone).

other thing you might consider is buffing all 2+int skill progressions to 4+ to be nice. Skills have less impact on game balance an let your mundanes do good things, so everyone wins :D

[With a box]

the first option is good. Also consider making untrained skills just be class skills for all classes... though, i would do one or the other, not both. You dont want to break rogues or bards with your change(though i think they both get a boost if you make untrained skills class skills for everyone).

other thing you might consider is buffing all 2+int skill progressions to 4+ to be nice. Skills have less impact on game balance an let your mundanes do good things, so everyone wins :D
Isn't wizard has 2+int skills?

[paperarmor]

If I was going to drop one, it would be the cap, given that it seems to me that having a hard time learning is better modeled by increased effort rather than a lower maximum ability. However it might help to know what you hope to accomplish with this change. For instance, I would have it be the other way around if I was trying to make it easier for characters to dabble in a multitude of skills; low skill caps with equal investment represent dabbling better than a concerted effort to learn a skill.

I was looking to capture the dabbling aspect and it just kind of rustles my jimmies that all the classes have craft but not the basic sensory skills. Plus the low caps help to push across the increased emphasis that some classes have on class skills.


The Able Learner feat does what you're suggesting.
In Pathfinder, all skills have the same cost and cap, but the first point you put into a class skill grants an additional +3 bonus.

Able learner also costs a feat slot and is mostly only good for certain builds. I do like parts of the pathfinder skill system particularly the ones that they merged. But honestly I don't think intorducing more numbers into my usual group is a good plan (they never have anything calculated up before hand.)

[georgie_leech]

I was looking to capture the dabbling aspect and it just kind of rustles my jimmies that all the classes have craft but not the basic sensory skills. Plus the low caps help to push across the increased emphasis that some classes have on class skills.

Then I would agree with removing the increased costs but keeping the cap. That reinforces the idea of "dabbling" in skills other than class skills, as you can do so relatively cheaply but without being able to achieve the same level of prowess as those specifically trained to do a given task.

[lytokk]

Isn't wizard has 2+int skills?

Yeah, but it's key ability is the one that increases skill points, so most likely, a wiz will come in with 18 int, and now 6 skill points per level.

I would say remove the cost and keep the cap, that way cross class means you can't be AS good as someone with the class skill, but you can access it the same.

[RogueDM]

The Able Learner feat does what you're suggesting.
In Pathfinder, all skills have the same cost and cap, but the first point you put into a class skill grants an additional +3 bonus.

Also keep in mind that PF doesn't give you that X4 skill point boost that 3.x gives you at first level. It's a small difference for the most part, but balances the flat +3 bonus to class skills. I don't know if this has any more numbers than the 3.x system, it actually struck me as simpler. All skills are governed exactly the same, save that your class skill gets a +3 bonus when you put that first skill point in. Now it's just like your racial bonus. No dividing by half, or fractional skill points. Boom, you go out, you get candy.

[Trasilor]

Not having a skill as a class skill is punished twice once by spending 2 Skill points and again by only allowing half max ranks. For my next campagin as DM I want to drop one of them because that's frankly dumb. I'm leaning towards the first but what do you guys/gals think?

First - keep in mind, you are only punished once. You can only spend X number of ranks on any given skill. Cross class skill only give you half a point per rank. The actual number of SP you invest however is not halved.

Second - What is the issue? Do you find that you don't have enough SP for all the skills you want to have or the skill selection is way to small? Different problems need different solutions.

If you don't have enough SP (or you think your players don't have enough). I find you have two options:

Combine like skills together (Balance & Tumble, Spot & Listen, etc). If either was on the class list, so is the new one.
Give the players 2 extra SP per level. Yes this means the Rogue gets 10 + per level but is that really a bad thing (plus it is only a 25% increase at best)? The Fighter and Wizard get 4+ a 100% increase!



If you don't like the limited nature of the SP selection (i.e. Fighters don't get Spot or Listen). Then change the list to be more to your liking. Most won't need any change, you could simply allow all classes to get Spot, Listen and Tumble and most players would be happy :smallbiggrin:

Last thing to remember - multi-classing eliminates this issue. When you take another level in a class, you add to your class skills. Once a class skill - always a class skill.

I don't like the Pathfinder method b/c some skills only need a handful of ranks - for feats, skill tricks or prestige classes.