Getting in hits

[Kane0]

Hey playground,

In one of our recent sessions we came up against a foe with some higher defenses than what we are used to. By the end of the fight most of us could only hit on a 20, but we managed to get through alright.

This raised the question though, were our attack bonuses not good enough for our level? I'm sitting at +16 at level 12 and our psion I believe is the same, is that considered below average?

[Kurald Galain]

This raised the question though, were our attack bonuses not good enough for our level? I'm sitting at +16 at level 12 and our psion I believe is the same, is that considered below average?

No, that is fine (assuming an implement; if you're using weapons, you should be three points higher). Your DM shouldn't pull out monsters with defenses like that; by 4E standards, hitting only on a 20 is ridiculous.

[Kane0]

Yeah i'm an implement user.
That particular guy was there pretty much just to make us waste attacks, he was harmless otherwise. Clever DMing on his part, considering our usual tactics.

Thanks for the swift response!

[Tegu8788]

I will occasionally use a monster with very high defenses to try to nudge certain players certain ways. Yes, that AC will require a +15, but his Will needs +5. Controller, have fun. But yeah, requiring a crit is crazy.

[Kane0]

On an unrelated note, i see no returning magic enchantment for thrown weapons, well anywhere. Is it assumed that all magic (thrown) weapons return?

[Epinephrine]

On an unrelated note, i see no returning magic enchantment for thrown weapons, well anywhere. Is it assumed that all magic (thrown) weapons return?

Yes. Any magic light thrown or heavy thrown weapon automatically returns to its wielder’s hand after a ranged attack with the weapon is resolved.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yes. Any magic light thrown or heavy thrown weapon automatically returns to its wielder’s hand after a ranged attack with the weapon is resolved.

Actually, if I understand it correctly, it returns as many times as needed for the attack, as well as when the attack is resolved. A rogue with a dagger ranged multi-target attack uses the same dagger on every enemy, if it is magical, but needs as many daggers as targets when non-magical (although I doubt anyone has ever followed that last rule).

GW

[Epinephrine]

Actually, if I understand it correctly, it returns as many times as needed for the attack, as well as when the attack is resolved.

I'm never quite clear on what "when the attack is resolved" means; is it the actual attack roll, or is it all of the attacks included in an action? If an enemy has a power like Greatsword (one target) and a standard action that reads "[Enemy] uses Greatsword twice," targetting a defender with one Greatsword attack, and another PC with the other attack, has he included the defender in the attack (he has in the standard action that uses Greatsword twice, but only one Greatsword attack does)?

I would tend to agree - the goal of the system seems to be to make it painless to do things like attack by throwing daggers; if your weapon is magical, you don't need to worry about how many times it is thrown. It's funny that the description only states this effect for *ranged* attacks; if you have a weapon power area burst 1 within 10, it looks like by RAW the weapon doesn't return (but I'm not sure if by RAW you actually throw it?).

[Dimers]

I have the same questions, really. I think I know the RAI, but RAW gets weird fast. Here's another one: the monk feat Starblade Flurry basically says you throw a dagger as part of the flurry, but no matter how you look at it, that's not a ranged attack, so does a magical dagger return? Here's another: should inherent bonuses allow thrown weapons to return? Seems kinda nonsensical, but inherent bonuses are supposed to make the game easier to play, not harder.

[masteraleph]

Actually, if I understand it correctly, it returns as many times as needed for the attack, as well as when the attack is resolved. A rogue with a dagger ranged multi-target attack uses the same dagger on every enemy, if it is magical, but needs as many daggers as targets when non-magical (although I doubt anyone has ever followed that last rule).

GW

You don't actually need this solution (though I'm not sure whether the devs realized they'd gotten the solution right). "Attack" as a game term can mean either an entire attack power or an individual attack within that power. So if you have a magical dagger and use Twin Strike, you make an attack, the attack resolves, you get the dagger back, and you make another attack. Doesn't help if you have a non-magical thrown weapon, though. As for the area attacks- not sure if that fully works RAW, though it's worth noting that a burst or blast is a single attack no matter how many enemies you target.

Starblade Flurry- Really just a bad case of someone adding fluff text into crunch text. Either the power is a thrown melee power, or in throwing it becomes a ranged attack (which makes a little more sense given the opportunity attack text in the crunch).

Inherent Bonuses- there are several major problems with them, and I'm sort of surprised that, with all the Next talk about options, they never fully made IBs into an alternate system late in 4e's career. If I were DMing with IBs, here's how I would actually houserule them:

*At level 2, you may choose to treat weapons and implements you wield as having a +1 enhancement bonus. This bonus increases by 1 every 5 levels.
*At level 4, you may choose to treat armor and neck pieces your wear as having a +1 enhancement bonus. This bonus increases by 1 every 5 levels. If this bonus would make armor eligible to have a Masterwork type, you may choose to treat it as having a Masterwork type, as well.

That would solve the thrown weapons problem, it would solve the confusing masterwork text problem, and it would solve IBs making items that increase by tier much less useful (things that grant bonuses based on the number of +s, for example).

[zazq]

The expected values for player attack bonuses are listed below. vDef attacks should be 3 points lower. If you are within a point or two of this number, you are fine.

Lvl vAC
0 0
1 8
2 10
3 10
4 11
5 11
6 12
7 13
8 14
9 14
10 15
11 16
12 18
13 18
14 19
15 19
16 20
17 21
18 22
19 22
20 23
21 25
22 27
23 27
24 28
25 28
26 29
27 30
28 31
29 31
30 32

[masteraleph]

I'm not sure I agree entirely with Zazac's chart. Note that there's an implicit assumption there of Enhancement Bonuses coming at level 2+, which may only be true if you're playing with Inherent Bonuses. Here's how I'd break it down, with details, and including his assumption about Enhancement Bonuses. It also assumes that each time you get a stat bump, you take it to a primary stat (so at 4, 8, 14, 18, 24, and 28, as well as the automatic ones at 11 and 21):

Lvl vAC MonsterAC
1 +6 15 (post-racial bonus ability at 18= +4, +2 proficiency bonus)
2 +8 16 (1/2 level, +1 Enhancement bonus)
3 +8 17
4 +9 18 (1/2 level)
5 +9 19
6 +10 20 (1/2 level)
7 +11 21 (+2 Enhancement Bonus)
8 +13 22 (primary stat at 20=+5, 1/2 level)
9 +13 23
10 +14 24 (1/2 level)
11 +14 25
12 +16 26 (1/2 level, +3 Enhancement Bonus)
13 +16 27
14 +18 28 (1/2 level, primary stat at 22=+6)
15 +18 29
16 +19 30 (1/2 level)
17 +20 31 (+4 Enhancement Bonus)
18 +21 32 (1/2 level)
19 +21 33
20 +22 34 (1/2 level)
21 +23 35 (primary stat at 24=+7)
22 +25 36 (1/2 level, +5 Enhancement Bonus)
23 +25 37
24 +26 38 (1/2 level)
25 +26 39
26 +27 40 (1/2 level)
27 +28 41 (+6 Enhancement Bonus)
28 +30 42 (1/2 level, primary stat at 26=+8)
29 +30 43
30 +31 44 (1/2 level)

Obviously we have a problem here: we've gone from needing a 9 to hit (60% chance of hitting) to needing a 13 (40% chance of hitting). And a 60% chance isn't so great. Fortunately, there are a few things that can be done to mitigate this issue:

1) Take an Expertise feat. You may hear them referred to as a feat tax- that's because, without one, your character's math doesn't fully work. Wizards recognized customers' annoyance about this, which is why all of the Essentials and post-Essentials Expertise feats (Light Blade Expertise, Heavy Blade Expertise, Devout Protector Expertise, etc.) include some additional bonus- so you don't feel that you're taking a feat just to keep up. Some DMs give it to you for free as a house rule. The same is true, btw, about non-armor defenses, which is why Improved Defenses exists and is often subject to the same house rule.

2) If you're a weapon using class, use a weapon with a +3 proficiency bonus.

3) If you're an implement using class, take Superior Implement Proficiency and an appropriate Superior Implement- often Accurate is the best choice for the plain +1, but you might find something better if all of your attacks target the same defense and/or use the same damage type, for example.

4) Take a post-racial 20 in your primary stat, rather than an 18. But this isn't always wise, and often is a bad idea, depending on the class.

5) Find a way to regularly get combat advantage (feats, powers, conditions, party members helping out, etc.)

6) If you're a Basic Attack using class, Deft Blade (for melee), Deft Aim (for ranged), which target Reflex (typically 2 points lower than AC) and Eagle Eye Goggles (for ranged) to help more with accuracy.

7) Class features or racial powers or abilities. The Tiefling's feat Hellfire Blood for fire based attack, or the Rogue's Weapon Talent types, or the Ranger's Prime Shot and feats that modify Prime Shot and Hunter's Quarry are all examples of this.

8) Take one of the Epic Destinies that grants +2 to one or two stats at level 21. Note that Destined Scion, while the most boring ED on the planet, gives both this and an additional +1 to hit at level 24.

Ideally, most classes should hit on at least a 7 or so vs. enemies using a combination of these ideas. Implement users will be harder off than weapon users most of the time- they don't get a proficiency bonus, and while targeting Non-AC defenses should help, weapon users can gain ways to target non-AC defenses and get +3 proficiency weapons potentially without spending a feat. Certain weapon users (Rogues and Rangers, for example) can feasibly get down to needing a 2 to hit when they have combat advantage and are attacking an on level enemy.

[Telwar]

Ideally, most classes should hit on at least a 7 or so vs. enemies using a combination of these ideas. Implement users will be harder off than weapon users most of the time- they don't get a proficiency bonus, and while targeting Non-AC defenses should help, weapon users can gain ways to target non-AC defenses and get +3 proficiency weapons potentially without spending a feat. Certain weapon users (Rogues and Rangers, for example) can feasibly get down to needing a 2 to hit when they have combat advantage and are attacking an on level enemy.

Yup. My tiefling fire elementalist had a +19 to hit on my elemental bolt at level 12, with the racial feat, eagle eye goggles, and an incendiary dagger. I kept having to remind myself that the invoker and bard's attack bonuses weren't subpar but were actually about expected.

[Kurald Galain]

Obviously we have a problem here: we've gone from needing a 9 to hit (60% chance of hitting) to needing a 13 (40% chance of hitting). And a 60% chance isn't so great. Fortunately, there are a few things that can be done to mitigate this issue:

Here's a big one for your list: use multi-hit powers.

Suppose you hit 60% of the time; if you use a power with two attack rolls, you now hit 84% of the time (and 36% of the time you'll hit twice). Adding an extra attack is almost always more effective than any other bonus you can get.

For strikers, this means powers like Twin Strike or Demonsoul Bolts, or minor action or immediate action attacks. For controllers, this means area effects, and the bigger the better; often you'll don't particularly care which enemy you're debuffing, but you want to debuff as many enemies as possible. There are a few ways to add a target to an attack; these are very powerful.

[masteraleph]

Yup. My tiefling fire elementalist had a +19 to hit on my elemental bolt at level 12, with the racial feat, eagle eye goggles, and an incendiary dagger. I kept having to remind myself that the invoker and bard's attack bonuses weren't subpar but were actually about expected.

Yeah, it's entirely feasible to end up with an Elementalist needing a 2 to hit- the elements you've mentioned just all work so well together. If you're allowing dragonmarks, Lyrandar Windrider is a great PP for them, though it's rather feat intensive (Mark of Storm, Arcane Admixture on Elemental Bolt to add Lightning, Reserve Maneuver to grab Flame Spiral, Arcane Admixture on Flame Sprial) and adds another +1 to hit +lots to damage.