Dragonwrought Kobolds and True Status

[Ruethgar]

I would like to first apologize for bringing this subject up, I know many view it as beating a dead horse.

Can someone point me to a post stating the reasoning behind DWKs not being true dragons? All the ones I have found quote the full list of true dragons published to date in the RotD, however when those rules were written they, and the DWKs, were not published voiding the list as a definitive source for the very book in which it resides. Disregarding RotD, one must fall upon the Dracinomicon for which DWKs fulfill the prerequisites of true dragons fairly well.

[Deophaun]

The strongest argument, IMHO, is not the list, but the requirement that a true dragon advances by age categories. Draconomicon page 142 explains how this works. It also shows why if DWKs were consistently treated as true dragons, no one would want to play them.

[Chronos]

The argument from list isn't valid, because DWKs are on the list. They gain dragon varieties as well as the dragon type, so a dragonwrought kobold can be a white dragon, or a copper dragon, or whatever.


The strongest argument, IMHO, is not the list, but the requirement that a true dragon advances by age categories.
Dragonwrought kobolds do have age categories, and they do get more powerful as they progress through those categories, since their mental scores increase. I'm not sure why age categories would make anyone not want to play a DWK; could you elaborate?

And it's also almost completely moot whether they count as "true dragons", anyway, since almost all of the dragon goodies just need the dragon creature type (which they unambiguously have), not "true dragon" status. I think the only thing that requires "true dragon" is the dragon psychoses like Spellhoarder.

[Aegis013]

And it's also almost completely moot whether they count as "true dragons", anyway, since almost all of the dragon goodies just need the dragon creature type (which they unambiguously have), not "true dragon" status. I think the only thing that requires "true dragon" is the dragon psychoses like Spellhoarder.

Yes, Dragon type creatures automatically qualify for anything that requires Dragonblooded (ignoring other requirements), due to the sidebar on page 4 of Races of the Dragon. They qualify for Epic feats which they meet the prerequisites as long as they are Old category or older, according to Draconomicon page 66.

Among other things.

True status only gets access to Spellhoarding Psychosis from Dragon Magazine #313, and to take a Sovereign Archetype, such as Loredrake, from Dragons of Eberron page 30.

[Deophaun]

Dragonwrought kobolds do have age categories, and they do get more powerful as they progress through those categories, since their mental scores increase. I'm not sure why age categories would make anyone not want to play a DWK; could you elaborate?
I would ask that you re-read what I wrote. I did not say anything about how a true dragon must "have age categories." I said something else (as does Draconomicon). I did not say anything about them getting "more powerful as they progress through those categories," I said something else. I also pointed exactly to a specific page in a specific book. I did not say age categories would not make someone want to play a DWK. I said being a true dragon is why no one would want to play a DWK (An ECL 20 Venerable (Great Wyrm) true dragon DWK Sorcerer would have a caster level of 9, as opposed to a non-true dragon DWK's 20).

[WhamBamSam]

The relevant line is in dragon magic in the section concerning dragon pacts. It defines a true dragon as a dragon with 12 age categories.

[Deophaun]

The relevant line is in dragon magic...
Which is trumped by Draconomicon, being that Draconomicon concerns itself with what dragons are, while Dragon Magic concerns itself with, well, draconic magic.

Errata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules
sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the
primary source is correct. One example of a
primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over
a table entry. An individual spell description takes
precedence when the short description in the beginning
of the spells chapter disagrees.
Another example of primary vs. secondary sources
involves book and topic precedence.

[WhamBamSam]

Which is trumped by Draconomicon, being that Draconomicon concerns itself with what dragons are, while Dragon Magic concerns itself with, well, draconic magic.Draconomicon only establishes itself as the primary source for the 10 true dragons in the Monster Manual by my understanding. I remember some argument on this point, but not exactly how it goes. Either way, now that I'm not on my phone, we should talk about the second bit.


I would ask that you re-read what I wrote. I did not say anything about how a true dragon must "have age categories." I said something else (as does Draconomicon). I did not say anything about them getting "more powerful as they progress through those categories," I said something else. I also pointed exactly to a specific page in a specific book. I did not say age categories would not make someone want to play a DWK. I said being a true dragon is why no one would want to play a DWK (An ECL 20 Venerable (Great Wyrm) true dragon DWK Sorcerer would have a caster level of 9, as opposed to a non-true dragon DWK's 20).Could you explain this a bit? Are you suggesting that the kobold would have to gain LA or RHD to advance in age categories? Because that's not the case. There's nothing to suggest that a Venerable Kobold has a different ECL than an Adult. A Green Wyrmling has the same LA as a Very Young Green Dragon, so there's no change in LA between the two age categories. There's a difference in HD, but that's not the case for different aged kobolds ordinarily, and I can't see why it would become so.

Or am I misunderstanding what you're arguing?

[Deophaun]

Draconomicon only establishes itself as the primary source for the 10 true dragons in the Monster Manual by my understanding....
And Dragon Magic establishes itself as the primary source regarding true dragons... how? Not at all? Got it.

No, the book says "for the most part," that still leaves 49.9999% to cover all true dragons. Indeed, there are an additional 10 true dragons given in the book.

Could you explain this a bit? Are you suggesting that the kobold would have to gain LA or RHD to advance in age categories? Because that's not the case
Point to me a single dragon that has its advancement plotted out that does not have to take a dragon level when it reaches a new age category, and I'll accept your conclusion. If you want your DWK to be true dragons, then they need to advance by age category. Enjoy your 11 dragon levels that give you nothing.

[WhamBamSam]

And Dragon Magic establishes itself as the primary source regarding true dragons... how? Not at all? Got it.

No, the book says "for the most part," that still leaves 49.9999% to cover all true dragons. Indeed, there are an additional 10 true dragons given in the book.By writing a line that says what a true dragon is, I guess, though both books do that, and the earlier one would be the primary source. So, whatever, I guess.


Point to me a single dragon that has its advancement plotted out that does not have to take a dragon level when it reaches a new age category, and I'll accept your conclusion. If you want your DWK to be true dragons, then they need to advance by age category. Enjoy your 11 dragon levels that give you nothing.Those levels represent the difference in ECL between one age category and the next. If there's not a difference in LA, no LA gets stuck into the progression (again, see the Green Dragon).

Also, there's this...


For True Dragons other than those found in the Monster Manual, construct tables such as those above using the information on Table 3-22: Additional Level Adjustments.

On the table, Hit Dice and Level Adjustments are given for wyrmling, very young, (usually) young, and (sometimes) juvenile dragons.

For example, a sapphire dragon has 5 HD and a level adjustment of +2 as a wyrmling, 8 HD and a level adjustment of +3 when it reaches the very young stage, 11 HD and a level adjustment of +4 at the young stage, and 14 HD and a level adjustment of +4 as a juvenile. It's progression is identical to that of a Copper Dragon.The table this references gives only extends to dragons printed up to the point of Draconomicon's publishing, natch. But it's clear that the only thing that makes dragons take RHD and LA as they age is the difference in RHD and LA between age categories. If a dragon is printed with no difference in LA from one category to the next, it doesn't have to take any levels of LA between those age categories. If a hypothetical dragon were to be printed with no difference in RHD between age categories, it wouldn't have to take any RHD levels either.

That hypothetical dragon was printed. It's called a dragonwrought kobold.

Anyway, you could circumvent all of this by hitting a 1st level Venerable non-Dragonwrought Kobold with Psychic Reformation.

[Gemini476]

Anyway, you could circumvent all of this by hitting a 1st level Venerable non-Dragonwrought Kobold with Psychic Reformation.

Why a Venerable Kobold? Do it to a non-venerable one, so they don't get the penalties as they age. I'm pretty sure that those would stay if they got them before the feat, but don't quote me on that.

Also, most things that care about being a True Dragon don't care about your age that much. Some care about you being an adult, IIRC, but I don't know of anything that specifically needs you to be a Great Wyrm.

...Well, if you want [Epic] feats I guess you'll want to be Middle Age (covers Very Old to Ancient). But that's pretty much it, isn't it?

[WhamBamSam]

Why a Venerable Kobold? Do it to a non-venerable one, so they don't get the penalties as they age. I'm pretty sure that those would stay if they got them before the feat, but don't quote me on that.

Also, most things that care about being a True Dragon don't care about your age that much. Some care about you being an adult, IIRC, but I don't know of anything that specifically needs you to be a Great Wyrm.

...Well, if you want [Epic] feats I guess you'll want to be Middle Age (covers Very Old to Ancient). But that's pretty much it, isn't it?
Ability penalties due to age do not apply to dragonwrought kobolds. See the Dragonwrought feat, page 100.So your age penalties to physical stats just stop applying. The only things it really matters for are the bonuses to mental stats, and Xorvintaal SLAs and Dragon Toxin if you're a non-spellcasting class (like say a Factotum, PsyWar, or Binder), though, so yes, just using a middle aged one would be fine.