PDA

View Full Version : golems and flight



krossbow
2007-02-23, 11:00 AM
hey, are there any sub-types of golems with the ability to be affected by the flight spell? I know golems are known for spell immunity, but their might be a outlier in the groupings.

The reason I'm asking this is that I figured out a way to make an easy airship, and am only stopped by the golem thing; I'm simply going make a golem fashioned in the shape of an airship skeleton, then cast a meta-magic persistent flight on it each day; if the ship is built around it, it would allow for an easy, yet controllable airship.





However, the golems magic immunity is making this hard to pull off; any help on this would be appreciated.
________
Ford mtx transmission (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_MTX_transmission)

oriong
2007-02-23, 11:05 AM
There aren't any golems that will do what you want, but what you want isn't a golem: golems come only in the humaniod form, nothing else.

What you want is a custom construct, or the easiest: a permanently animated object (preferably in the form of an enchanted object rather than simple permanency spells).

It would be at least Gargantuan or collossal if it's the size of a full sized ship.

ampcptlogic
2007-02-23, 11:07 AM
If you can afford to craft a golem, why not just craft an airship or some other kind of naturally flying construct?

Thomas
2007-02-23, 11:51 AM
Dragonflesh golems (MM2) have a fly speed of 120 ft. (poor maneuverability). The humanoid form bit, obviously, is incorrect; dragonflesh golems are shaped (more or less) like dragons.

Anyway, this idea sounds weird. Pick another type of construct instead; golems are a pretty specific sort, and (as far as I know) always have magic immunity.

Gamebird
2007-02-23, 11:54 AM
There aren't any golems that will do what you want, but what you want isn't a golem: golems come only in the humaniod form, nothing else.

Not true. Golems are presented in the MM as being humanoid. It also notes that they can come in other shapes. (Edit: The SRD is silent, but I'm pretty sure the line is there in the MM. There's a quadruped warforged called a charger in one book.)

Another point is that golems, and any creature with spell immunity or spell resistance, can lower their immunity or resistance to allow friendly spells cast on them to work. There's no reason why a golem can't be equipped with magical items, like a Cloak of the Bat or Wings of Flying and make full use of them. (Well, there's the issue of INT and ability to understand how to activate magical items, but that's a discussion for you and the DM about how he runs them.)

oriong
2007-02-23, 12:02 PM
Not true. Golems are presented in the MM as being humanoid. It also notes that they can come in other shapes.

Another point is that golems, and any creature with spell immunity or spell resistance, can lower their immunity or resistance to allow friendly spells cast on them to work. There's no reason why a golem can't be equipped with magical items, like a Cloak of the Bat or Wings of Flying and make full use of them. (Well, there's the issue of INT and ability to understand how to activate magical items, but that's a discussion for you and the DM about how he runs them.)

Nope. it doesn't note that they can come in other shapes anywhere. Now, obviously some (like the dragonflesh golem) can be made into different shapes, so it might be better to say that golems only appear in the forms presented unless your DM is allowing a custom made one.

And golems can't lower their magic immunity. It is not the same as Spell Resistance.

Thomas
2007-02-23, 12:06 PM
And golems can't lower their magic immunity. It is not the same as Spell Resistance.

We had a huge, long argument about this once.

I don't recall what the conclusion was.

We need some sort of archive about conclusions on arguments...

oriong
2007-02-23, 12:09 PM
Well, from what I understand the basis for the arguement is that it's supposed to be unbeatable SR, which it isn't.

Or I suppose you could take the stance that all innate abilities are 'lowerable' in which case why is SR the only one where that is ever specified.

Hunter_Rose
2007-02-23, 12:09 PM
I was always under the impression that stone golems were what ever you carved them to be (humanoid, insect, or animal), and there were some non-humanoind golems in second edition ie: the amber golem.

Thomas
2007-02-23, 12:10 PM
Most shapes you create a golem in would or could have the exact same stats, anyway.

Gamebird
2007-02-23, 12:17 PM
Nope. it doesn't note that they can come in other shapes anywhere. Now, obviously some (like the dragonflesh golem) can be made into different shapes, so it might be better to say that golems only appear in the forms presented unless your DM is allowing a custom made one.

I'll try to remember to check the book tonight.


And golems can't lower their magic immunity. It is not the same as Spell Resistance.

SRD

Spell Immunity

A creature with spell immunity avoids the effects of spells and spell-like abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) that directly affect it. This works exactly like spell resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance), except that it cannot be overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell resistance are not affected by spell immunity.

SRD

Spell Resistance

A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions) that does not provoke an attack of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm). Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature’s next turn. At the beginning of the creature’s next turn, the creature’s spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).
A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.

So the question is: Is Spell Immunity the same thing as Immunity to Magic?

A Demi-lich is an epic-level monster who uses spell-like abilities *and* has Magic Immunity, making it clear that just being immune to magic doesn't keep you from using magical effects. It is also specified that the demi-lich can cast all spells it knows from being a lich.

However, this http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_immunity&alpha= conflicts with the above, saying that a creature with "immunity" can't suppress it. There are other types of immunities, such as Fire and Cold immunity, which aren't suppressable.

I'll keep looking for a clearer citation.

oriong
2007-02-23, 12:21 PM
No, it's not the same:

Read the golem's ability description.


Immunity to Magic (Ex (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities))

A clay golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) that allows spell resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance). In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.


They do not have spell immunity, they have immunity to magic.

Gamebird
2007-02-23, 12:23 PM
Okay, then is "immunity to magic" (which golems have) the same as "magic immunity" (that demi-liches have)?

Edit: Demi-liches can clearly use spells and benefit from magical effects. Also, the Colossus, another epic-level monster, which is described as an enormous golem, has "magic immunity" (same as the demi-lich) instead of "immunity to magic".

Edit 2: It's worth mentioning that golem's description of their ability is stated twice, in two different ways:

Immunity to Magic (Ex (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities))
Golems have immunity to most magical and supernatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) effects, except when otherwise noted.

Immunity to Magic (Ex (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities))
A clay golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) that allows spell resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance). In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

Clay golem just used as an illustration. The first listing makes it sound like they're immune to breath weapons, Scorcher, Melf's Acid Arrow - even things that don't allow SR. The second listing says they're only immune to spells or spell-like abilities that allow SR. They're both in the SRD. Which is right? And are either of them suppressable?

oriong
2007-02-23, 12:25 PM
That is a good question, since it notes in the general golem description that they are immune to most supernatural effects, but nothing in the individual golem description mentions this.

However, nothing I've seen indicates a demi-lich can lower their immunity either.

Gamebird
2007-02-23, 12:42 PM
However, nothing I've seen indicates a demi-lich can lower their immunity either.



Spells

The demilich can cast any spells it could cast as a lich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm). This sample demilich was a 21st-level wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard) (spells per day: 4/12/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/3). The last three spell slots are 10th-level slots and available for 0-9th level metamagic spells.
Perfect Automatic Still Spell (Ex (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities))

A demilich can cast all the spells it knows without gestures.
Spell-Like Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities)

At will—astral projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm), create greater undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createGreaterUndead.htm), create undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm), death knell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathKnell.htm), enervation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm), greater dispel magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagicGreater.htm), harm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/harm.htm) (usually used to heal itself), summon monster I (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm)-IX, telekinesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm), weird (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/weird.htm); 2/day—greater planar ally (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyGreater.htm). Demiliches use these abilities as casters of a level equal to their spellcaster level, but the save DCs are all 36. The DC is Charisma-based.
Magic Immunity (Ex (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities))

Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) effects, except as follows. A shatter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shatter.htm) spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelEvil.htm) spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#fortitude) for half damage). Holy smite (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySmite.htm) spells affect demiliches normally.

It says they have spells. It says they can cast them. Now you might argue that because they have magic immunity, they can't be affected by their own spells. I think that's something it would have mentioned, if it were true.

Edit: Here's another excerpt, amusing because they are one after the other (I didn't edit anything out):

Magic Immunity (Ex (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities))

Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) effects, except as follows. A shatter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shatter.htm) spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelEvil.htm) spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#fortitude) for half damage). Holy smite (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySmite.htm) spells affect demiliches normally.
Phylactery Transference (Su (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities))

Headbands, belts, rings, cloaks, and other wearable items kept in close association with the demilich’s phylactery transfer all their benefits to the demilich no matter how far apart the demilich and the phylactery are located. The standard limits on types of items utilized simultaneously still apply.

So the first says they're immune to all supernatural and magical effects. The very next ability says they get benefits from magical items.