what's so great about eldritch knight / abjurant champion?

[CryptbornAkryea]

Seriously, I don't get it

[Ratatoskir]

If you want to make a character that can fight AND use magic, abjurant champion is generally seen as the best prestige class in 3.5 for it. Eldritch knight, while losing a spellcasting level, is still useful for the same type of character due to the full BAB.

[HammeredWharf]

Abjurant Champion gets full casting, full BAB and some minor, but useful abilities. Eldrich Knight isn't as good, but is ok for a gish because of its full BAB.

[CryptbornAkryea]

Wouldn't duskblade cover all those bases better?

[Gwendol]

There is also the Spellsword.

Also, you can simply use the Duskblade (a.k.a Gish in a Can) if you want a simple solution.

On the divine side there is the Ordained Champion.

[Gwendol]

Wouldn't duskblade cover all those bases better?

Not better, but perhaps easier as it requires nothing besides continuing to advance in the class.

[eggynack]

Wouldn't duskblade cover all those bases better?
It's certainly more elegant, but duskblades run off a worse and slower casting progression than a wizard, and casting tends to be everything

[CryptbornAkryea]

So the big bonus is the full wizard spell list, correct?

[Andezzar]

Pretty much. Wizard casting, full BAB, better HD. And in case of the Abjurant Champion the boosts to abjurant spells are nice too. In certain cases setting your CL to your BAB can also be helpful.

[Gwendol]

So the big bonus is the full wizard spell list, correct?

As always, yes. Have you looked at the Duskblade spell list? It's not that great.

[CryptbornAkryea]

Certain cases? Such as..?

[HammeredWharf]

When your BAB is higher than your CL. Of course, in that case you're not an optimized abjurant champion to begin with.

[Alleran]

If I'm remembering rightly, there's an Eberron PrC that was very similar to the Eldritch Knight, except it actually had class features to go along with it. Something involving Phantom Steeds?

[kardar233]

You're thinking of the Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4).

[Andezzar]

Certain cases? Such as..?When your CL is lower than your BAB. However for most decent Gish builds that is not an issue. For example an Outsider Wizard 5/Edritch Knight 10/Abjurant champion 5 has a BAB of 17 and CL 19 and as such would not benefit from the class feature, but WotC seems to think that Gish builds do not try to get 9th level spells or maximize their CL in which case the feature can be good.

Knight Phantom looks nice but has more semi-useless feats as prerequisites.

[LordBlades]

You're thinking of the Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4).

Which is worse than Ekdritch Knight on most/ all mechanical accounts. It costs you 2 feats ( Still Spell to enter and 1st level Eldritch Knight bonus feat) in exchange for some flavorful but not great class features and slighly better HD (d8 instead of d6).

[CryptbornAkryea]

Thanks for the clarification, gents, it's much appreciated.

[Mnemnosyne]

Which is worse than Ekdritch Knight on most/ all mechanical accounts. It costs you 2 feats ( Still Spell to enter and 1st level Eldritch Knight bonus feat) in exchange for some flavorful but not great class features and slighly better HD (d8 instead of d6).

It does grant the ability to cast in light armor and ignore arcane spell failure, though. Depending on what defensive spells the character plans on casting, this can be more or less valuable. The phantom steed power is actually pretty decent also.

[Andezzar]

You can get light armor without ASF or ACP even without this or similar class features, if you want to wear armor. You can get a chainshirt without ASF or ACP fairly cheaply. A breatplate with simiilar properties and counting as light armor is more expensive.

[Fouredged Sword]

Abjurant champion applies quicken to all low level abjurations and extend to all abjurations for free, and adds +5 to all abjuration spells that grant an armor or shield bonus to your AC. That makes the simple 1st level shield spell a swift action to cast and adds +9 to your AC for longer than combat is going to run.

And it has full casting progression and costs at most 2 feats to enter.

[Andezzar]

Abjurant champion applies quicken to all low level abjurations and extend to all abjurations for free, and adds +5 to all abjuration spells that grant an armor or shield bonus to your AC. That makes the simple 1st level shield spell a swift action to cast and adds +9 to your AC for longer than combat is going to run.
It gets even better if BoED is in play and the Abjurant champion is good. (Greater) Luminous armor for +10 (+13) AC and a nice debuff to your enemies all day long. If you don't want to keep the STR damage at the end of the duration, get an Eternal Wand of Lesser Restoration.

[Droningbass]

I'd like to point out that Abjurant Champion is an excellent prestige class for any Elf Wizard or Sorcerer, since they already start play with proficiency with a couple martial weapons. For the cost of just one sort of lousy feat (Combat Casting) you get 5 levels of full BAB, full casting progression, and a handful of Abjuration abilities and a couple decent combat bonuses that you can use at the cost of a spell slot (handy in a pinch!).

It's definitely worth looking at for Elf Wizards, especially if you need to catch up on your BAB after a dip or two into a PrC!

[Svata]

Reminds me of my self-titled Master of Arcane Defense. Abjurer Wizard 3/Master Specialist 5/IotSV 7/Abjurant Champion 5. Obviously abjuration focused, but with illusion to back it up, and addan extra layer of defense. Nothing could touch him.

[Zanos]

It gets even better if BoED is in play and the Abjurant champion is good. (Greater) Luminous armor for +10 (+13) AC and a nice debuff to your enemies all day long. If you don't want to keep the STR damage at the end of the duration, get an Eternal Wand of Lesser Restoration.
How are you getting Lesser Restoration as an arcane spell?

[Andezzar]

How are you getting Lesser Restoration as an arcane spell?Knight of the Weave is an arcane caster and has Lesser Restoration on its spell list. So such an Eternal Wand should be available.

[Forrestfire]

Extra Spell works as well, if you can't find a Knight of the Weave to make you a wand.

[Zanos]

Knight of the Weave is an arcane caster and has Lesser Restoration on its spell list. So such an Eternal Wand should be available.
Interesting.

Rod of Bodily Restoration is a better option, I think. Unless you can get lesser restoration as a 1st level spell it should be cheaper than an eternal wand. Only 3.1k GP. The wand has more applications than healing strength damage, however.

[malonkey1]

How are you getting Lesser Restoration as an arcane spell?

Take Extra Spell (Complete Arcane)


You learn one additional spell at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast. Thus, a 4th-level sorcerer (maximum spell level 2nd) gains a new 0-level or 1st-level spell known with which to expand her repertoire. For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.

[Malroth]

or give a wand of it to your raven familiar and take UMD ranks.

[Andezzar]

Interesting.

Rod of Bodily Restoration is a better option, I think. Unless you can get lesser restoration as a 1st level spell it should be cheaper than an eternal wand. Only 3.1k GP. The wand has more applications than healing strength damage, however.Lesser Restoration is a 1st level spell for the Knight of the Weave.


Take Extra Spell (Complete Arcane)It is debatable whether you can use Extra Spell to get a spell outside your spell list.

[malonkey1]

Lesser Restoration is a 1st level spell for the Knight of the Weave.

It is debatable whether you can use Extra Spell to get a spell outside your spell list.

Well, it seems like that's the explicit intent, based on the clause noting its use for Wizards who otherwise "would be unable to research [such spells]". Of course, RAI uncertainty comes into play here. In my games, I'd rule it as RAW-legal, but a slice of American Cheese (not actually cheese, but close).

[Andezzar]

Being unable to research the spell can also be due to not having access to a library.

[malonkey1]

Being unable to research the spell can also be due to not having access to a library.

Shush! You're not supposed to have counterarguments!

[Andezzar]

As a DM I wouldn't mind someone using the Feat to get a spell outside his class list, but I just don't see the RAW allowing it explicitly (contrary to Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge)).

[malonkey1]

As a DM I wouldn't mind someone using the Feat to get a spell outside his class list, but I just don't see the RAW allowing it explicitly (contrary to Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge)).

Mild derail, I just realized something. You could conceivably use this to learn a power of a level 1 higher than you can cast. Psionics, see, count as Spell-Like abilities. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#psionics) Therefore, they can be used with the Heighten Spell-Like Ability Feat (Complete Arcane), bring the level of power you can manifest up by two levels, effectively. This means you can now manifest powers at (normal Maximum+2). You can then take Expanded Knowledge to learn a power of one less than your new effective maximum, Old Maximum + 2 - 1, or Old Maximum +1. Technically, if you could find a way to pump Manifest Level sufficiently to increase PP expenditure limits, you could use this in a loop, ignoring your class's maximum power level almost entirely ("Screw you, 6th-level powers!" shouts the Psychic Warrior).

The idea has been posed, take it and run with it, Playgrounders. Red is now the challenge color.

[DeAnno]

Which is worse than Ekdritch Knight on most/ all mechanical accounts. It costs you 2 feats ( Still Spell to enter and 1st level Eldritch Knight bonus feat) in exchange for some flavorful but not great class features and slighly better HD (d8 instead of d6).

Eh, Blade of the Phantom is pretty good. It's not unreasonable to say 10 rounds of touch attacks a day (granted, not against constructs or undead, but not consuming spell slots or swift actions like Wraithstrike) is worth a feat to some builds. Everything else, taken together, and 10 hp ... not the worst feat.

I think you're selling it a little short, though it is very backloaded compared to EK.

[Pyromancer999]

Mild derail, I just realized something. You could conceivably use this to learn a power of a level 1 higher than you can cast. Psionics, see, count as Spell-Like abilities. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#psionics) Therefore, they can be used with the Heighten Spell-Like Ability Feat (Complete Arcane), bring the level of power you can manifest up by two levels, effectively. This means you can now manifest powers at (normal Maximum+2). You can then take Expanded Knowledge to learn a power of one less than your new effective maximum, Old Maximum + 2 - 1, or Old Maximum +1. Technically, if you could find a way to pump Manifest Level sufficiently to increase PP expenditure limits, you could use this in a loop, ignoring your class's maximum power level almost entirely ("Screw you, 6th-level powers!" shouts the Psychic Warrior).

The idea has been posed, take it and run with it, Playgrounders. Red is now the challenge color.

Actually, you can't.

You see, that is not from the Psionics section of the SRD. That is word-for-word copied from the Monster Manual, where various monsters(such as Illithids and Couatl), had "psionics", which in the end were essentially just SLAs with psionic flavor. Not sure why they did that, but that's the case. So, no, you can't do that in the least.

[Eldariel]

When your BAB is higher than your CL. Of course, in that case you're not an optimized abjurant champion to begin with.

This mostly comes up in builds involving a fast progression class such as Suel Arcanamach. Suel Arcanamach/Abjurant Champion can have BAB 19 and thus get CL 19 while Suel Arcanamach's own caster level would never be in reasonable levels.