Fighter Update, need feedback.

[hakarb]

Hello All, in my attempt to address the imbalance inherit with both Pathfinder and 3.5 I'm reworking all of the core material.

Here is my beta Fighter v0.09

Please give me any feedback you have, thank you in advance.

Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills
The fighter’s class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Table: Fighter
Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus feat
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus feat, bravery +1
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Armor training 1
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus feat
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Weapon training 1, Combat Clarity 1/enc
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Bonus feat, bravery +2
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Armor training 2
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Bonus feat
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Weapon training 2
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Bonus feat, bravery +3, Combat Clarity 2/enc
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Armor training 3
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Bonus feat
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Weapon training 3
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Bonus feat, bravery +4
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Armor training 4, Combat Clarity 3/enc
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Bonus feat
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Weapon training 4
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Bonus feat, bravery +5
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Armor mastery
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Bonus feat, weapon mastery, Combat Clarity 4/enc
Class Features
The following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”

Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.

Bravery (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on Will saves. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.

Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. In addition he also gains DR1/-. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed as well giving him DR4/-.

In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.

Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.

Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack, damage, and critical confirmation rolls, when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack, damage and critical confirmation rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack, damage, and critical confirmation rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.

A fighter also adds this bonus to any trip, disarm, sunder, or feint made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter’s roll when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.

Weapon groups are defined as follows (GMs may add other weapons to these groups, or add entirely new groups):

Axes: battleaxe, dwarven waraxe, greataxe, handaxe, heavy pick, light pick, orc double axe, and throwing axe.

Blades, Heavy: bastard sword, elven curve blade, falchion, greatsword, longsword, scimitar, scythe, and two-bladed sword.

Blades, Light: dagger, kama, kukri, rapier, sickle, starknife, and short sword.

Bows: composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, and shortbow.

Close: gauntlet, heavy shield, light shield, punching dagger, sap, spiked armor, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield, and unarmed strike.

Crossbows: hand crossbow, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, heavy repeating crossbow, and light repeating crossbow.

Double: dire flail, dwarven urgrosh, gnome hooked hammer, orc double axe, quarterstaff, and two-bladed sword.

Flails: dire flail, flail, heavy flail, morningstar, nunchaku, spiked chain, and whip.

Hammers: club, greatclub, heavy mace, light hammer, light mace, and warhammer.

Monk: kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and unarmed strike.

Natural: unarmed strike and all natural weapons, such as bite, claw, gore, tail, and wing.

Pole Arms: glaive, guisarme, halberd, and ranseur.

Spears: javelin, lance, longspear, shortspear, spear, and trident.

Thrown: blowgun, bolas, club, dagger, dart, halfling sling staff, javelin, light hammer, net, shortspear, shuriken, sling, spear, starknife, throwing axe, and trident.

Combat Clarity (Ex) : Starting at 5th level, a fighter can take a full attack action as a standard action once per encounter.

This amount of uses of this ability increases by one at 10th, 15th, and 20th level for a maximum of 4 uses per encounter at 20th level.
Example: a 7th level Fighter could use this ability to make a full attack action, giving him two attacks at his full BAB of +7/+2 and then take a move action afterwards but only once per encounter.

Armor Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a fighter gains DR 5/— whenever he is wearing armor or using a shield. In addition, whenever he is wearing armor, it reduces the armor check penalty to 0

Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.

[Vaz]

It's still kinda useless.

Sure, it's more resilient against Will Saves or die, and Combat Clarity is kinda nice as well, DR5/- comes far too late.

It still only hits things. A bit better than what it did before, but nothing exactly spectacular.

We also have a forum for this.

[hakarb]

It's still kinda useless.

Sure, it's more resilient against Will Saves or die, and Combat Clarity is kinda nice as well, DR5/- comes far too late.

It still only hits things. A bit better than what it did before, but nothing exactly spectacular.

We also have a forum for this.

I had no idea as I'm relatively new here, if a mod could move this topic I would be grateful.

Until then. Here are some other things I've considered.

DR1/- that would scale up to DR5/- at later levels

What should I fighter do other than hit things? With feats, he can hit things in a lot of different ways.

Also, keep in mind, this is using PF feat progression and skill progression.

I also added perception (spot, listen, search) as a class skill.

[IdleMuse]

What should I fighter do other than hit things? With feats, he can hit things in a lot of different ways.

You've just asked exactly the right question that should be asked when trying to do things like this. Usually before you even get started.

[hakarb]

You've just asked exactly the right question that should be asked when trying to do things like this. Usually before you even get started.

I've asked myself that question, and the answer is usually that they shouldn't be doing anything else. Fighters fight. It seems like the class should be tailored to be the ultimate weapons-based melee combatant and that variant classes should be used to fulfill other power fantasies. Just my 2 copper on that one.

What do YOU think a fighter should be able to do other than hit things?

[firebrandtoluc]

The imbalance you are trying to fix is intrinsically related to the fact that a wizard can do everything while a fighter can only hit things.

[Pandyman]

I think that's a really difficult question with no real straightforward answer. All non-magic classes in the PhB need a boost of some sort if the goal is to help boost them up with wizards, clerics, and druids. Tome of Battle does a decent job of creating good melee classes, by giving them options to interact offensively and defensively with melee, ranged, and magic on the battlefield, but even then the Tome of Battle classes aren't as versatile as spellcasters because of the sheer number of spells available.

[Vaz]

It means when your fighter is incapable of hitting things, what can he do? He can't even hit all that hard.

Sure, 4 Full attacks as standard is okay, but losing access to things like charging benefits, you're going to recieve more benefits from getting additional attacks - so TWF chain, but without access to some form of additional damage for each attack such as Sneak attack, you're struggling to match up to other CR20 opponents.

[hakarb]

It means when your fighter is incapable of hitting things, what can he do? He can't even hit all that hard.

Sure, 4 Full attacks as standard is okay, but losing access to things like charging benefits, you're going to recieve more benefits from getting additional attacks - so TWF chain, but without access to some form of additional damage for each attack such as Sneak attack, you're struggling to match up to other CR20 opponents.

This is excellent feedback, I'm doing a pass on classes first, then hitting feats. I'm thinking that the additional damage will really come in there.

For example: Weapon Specialization (current): You are skilled at dealing damage with one weapon. Choose one type of weapon (including unarmed strike or grapple) for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You deal extra damage when using this weapon.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 4th.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

I'm updating this feat to scale and give +2 at 4th and increase by +2 every 4 levels.

Keep the feedback coming, it's very helpful.

[Flickerdart]

The fighter doesn't need help in hitting things - existing feats like Shock Trooper ensure that you can murder whatever you set your mind to, provided that you can run up to it. If your vision of the fighter is so narrow, you should at least make sure they have the mobility to deliver their horrible murder to where it needs to go.

Consider also that you can hit things other than creatures. A way for the fighter to Sunder spell effects (ongoing or currently being cast at him) would be a unique ability that actually makes sundering useful. There are also a bunch of combat maneuvers that a 1st level fighter is always ore successful at than a 20th level one, because they require a massive commitment of resources to stay relevant. Let feats like Improved Trip or Improved Bull Rush scale, and the fighter suddenly becomes viable as a master of combat tactics and not just a one-trick pony.

In fact, I'm going to go make my own fighter fix that incorporates these now. Forget I said anything.

[hakarb]

The fighter doesn't need help in hitting things - existing feats like Shock Trooper ensure that you can murder whatever you set your mind to, provided that you can run up to it. If your vision of the fighter is so narrow, you should at least make sure they have the mobility to deliver their horrible murder to where it needs to go.

Consider also that you can hit things other than creatures. A way for the fighter to Sunder spell effects (ongoing or currently being cast at him) would be a unique ability that actually makes sundering useful. There are also a bunch of combat maneuvers that a 1st level fighter is always ore successful at than a 20th level one, because they require a massive commitment of resources to stay relevant. Let feats like Improved Trip or Improved Bull Rush scale, and the fighter suddenly becomes viable as a master of combat tactics and not just a one-trick pony.

In fact, I'm going to go make my own fighter fix that incorporates these now. Forget I said anything.

I've already added this to every class actually. Spellcasting is being changed and sunder can be used to stop it. It isn't going to be unique to the fighter. Also MANY MANY feats are being updated to be able to scale.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What should I fighter do other than hit things?
Until you can answer this question, there's not a lot you can do to fix the poor guy.

But even without that... you're only a tiny bit better at hitting things than the existing fighter. Weapon Training is an almost insignificant bonus, Combat Clarity is... OK, but can't really be used enough at low-levels, so you're still looking at using the standard methods of moving-and-full-attacking. (Pounce, swift action movement, etc). Armor Mastery and Weapon Mastery would be decent if they came 10 levels earlier, but are embarrassing when full casters are tossing around 9th level spells.

[hakarb]

Until you can answer this question, there's not a lot you can do to fix the poor guy.

But even without that... you're only a tiny bit better at hitting things than the existing fighter. Weapon Training is an almost insignificant bonus, Combat Clarity is... OK, but can't really be used enough at low-levels, so you're still looking at using the standard methods of moving-and-full-attacking. (Pounce, swift action movement, etc). Armor Mastery and Weapon Mastery would be decent if they came 10 levels earlier, but are embarrassing when full casters are tossing around 9th level spells.

I updated the original post. I moved some things around and made some adjustments.

I think that the fighter should be the master of weapons and armor, the optimizers here will have a field day once I get down to the nitty gritty of working on the feats.

My plan is to remove a vast amount of the bloat that exists to really give the fighter a chance to be amazing at combat maneuvers.

Also, would it be too much to also remove the speed penalty on armor for the fighter? I thought of that as a possibility too.

[RedMage125]

Also, all classes in Pathfinder can retrain one feat at ANY level, as long as they do not invalidate prerequisites for other abilities.

[Eldaran]

The problem is WotC already reworked the fighter, they called it the warblade. Short of giving a fighter maneuvers like that, or giving them supernatural abilities and spells like a paladin, there is no way to fix the fighter. The fighter is intentionally generic, and some people want a dude that just hits things with a weapon and nothing else, and those people are happy with the fighter. For everyone else, they seek out the ToB classes or other things that do have those combat options.

[hakarb]

The problem is WotC already reworked the fighter, they called it the warblade. Short of giving a fighter maneuvers like that, or giving them supernatural abilities and spells like a paladin, there is no way to fix the fighter. The fighter is intentionally generic, and some people want a dude that just hits things with a weapon and nothing else, and those people are happy with the fighter. For everyone else, they seek out the ToB classes or other things that do have those combat options.

I think there is enough room in this game for a guy who hits things and uses feats to do stuff other than hit things, as well as the guy that uses kung-fu magic to hit things.

[Gemini476]

I think there is enough room in this game for a guy who hits things and uses feats to do stuff other than hit things, as well as the guy that uses kung-fu magic to hit things.
The Warblade uses roughly zero Kung-Fu Magic, maybe a little bit if you really think that Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics are magical when they're really just indomitable will and expert leadership, respectively. Weeaboo Fightan Magics are more of the Swordsage's schtick.

The Warblade is just all about hitting people hard in inventive ways, inspiring others to fight on, and generally being the best at actually fighting.

[TheIronGolem]

What do YOU think a fighter should be able to do other than hit things?


Fortify a position
Train an army
Negotiate a cease-fire or surrender with the leader of an opposing force
Swim across an ocean and still be ready to fight the moment he crawls back onto dry land
Fell a mighty oak with one swipe of a blade
Pack your supplies, gear, and looted treasure with such expert efficiency that you'd swear he's got a Bag of Holding he's not telling you about
Perform crude-but-effective battlefield medicine on a fallen ally
Rally morale-broken allies for a counterattack
Tell you at a glance which of the 500 seemingly-identical hobgoblins in front of you is the warchief whose death will break the horde
Shove an ally out of the way of an oncoming attack, taking the brunt himself
Use his shield to save that batty wizard from the poison arrow trap he carelessly tripped
Convince the king that his battle plan is better than the incompetent general's
Reforge a subpar blade into a masterwork weapon


That's just off the top of my head.

Now, a given fighter shouldn't necessarily be able to do all of those things. And he shouldn't necessarily be able to do them quite as well as a character whose class specializes in that kind of thing. But he should be able to do several of them, of his choice, competently.

If you buy into the idea that a fighter should only be a beatstick, then any effort you make to fix the class is going to fail.

[Eldaran]

I think there is enough room in this game for a guy who hits things and uses feats to do stuff other than hit things, as well as the guy that uses kung-fu magic to hit things.

Like Gemini said, not much Kung-fu about the Warblade. I think some people are thrown off by their attacks having names, but what else are they gonna do, call it Diamond Mind Maneuver 1, Diamond Mind Maneuver 2...

As for the fighter, how do they use feats to do stuff other than hit things? They get normal feats like everyone else, and then from class features the only thing they get is combat feats, which are focused almost entirely around hitting things, or not being hit I guess.

[Gemini476]

Like Gemini said, not much Kung-fu about the Warblade. I think some people are thrown off by their attacks having names, but what else are they gonna do, call it Diamond Mind Maneuver 1, Diamond Mind Maneuver 2...

As for the fighter, how do they use feats to do stuff other than hit things? They get normal feats like everyone else, and then from class features the only thing they get is combat feats, which are focused almost entirely around hitting things, or not being hit I guess.

Not to mention that giving martial arts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_European_martial_arts#Late_Middle_Ages_ .281350_to_1500.29)maneuvers names (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1m-t_AAVpQ)is hardly a new invention. Or even Asian, for that matter. And even those Asian names are just descriptive of what exactly they do - the Crane Stance (or Jin Ji Du Li, Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg), for instance, has you stand on one leg with the other raised into the air in a prime position for kicking. It also makes you look like a bird standing on one leg, hence the name. Or the Capo Ferro, also known as The Lunge - that one got it's name from Ridolfo Capo Ferro, who laid it out in his fencing manuals.

I mean, look at modern boxing. "Left Hook", "Uppercut", "Straight"... People name their techniques, no matter where they come from. It's easier to reference them that way. If they're originally in foreign languages then they tend to stay that way or be translated into something easier to pronounce, but yeah. Just look at how often a fighter parries things and follows it up with a riposte.

[hakarb]

Fortify a position
Train an army
Negotiate a cease-fire or surrender with the leader of an opposing force
Swim across an ocean and still be ready to fight the moment he crawls back onto dry land
Fell a mighty oak with one swipe of a blade
Pack your supplies, gear, and looted treasure with such expert efficiency that you'd swear he's got a Bag of Holding he's not telling you about
Perform crude-but-effective battlefield medicine on a fallen ally
Rally morale-broken allies for a counterattack
Tell you at a glance which of the 500 seemingly-identical hobgoblins in front of you is the warchief whose death will break the horde
Shove an ally out of the way of an oncoming attack, taking the brunt himself
Use his shield to save that batty wizard from the poison arrow trap he carelessly tripped
Convince the king that his battle plan is better than the incompetent general's
Reforge a subpar blade into a masterwork weapon


That's just off the top of my head.

Now, a given fighter shouldn't necessarily be able to do all of those things. And he shouldn't necessarily be able to do them quite as well as a character whose class specializes in that kind of thing. But he should be able to do several of them, of his choice, competently.

If you buy into the idea that a fighter should only be a beatstick, then any effort you make to fix the class is going to fail.

This is great stuff, I'll add diplomacy to class skills, which would make some of these things possible.

I've already added perception to class skills, so I really just need to create a way to be able to size up an opponent using that skill.

Heal also makes sense flavor-wise as a fighter should know basic first aid (during training I bet he got hurt plenty of times and should at least be familiar with the medic)

Leadership is being overhauled, and will allow anyone to do a lot of these things. (Raise morale, train people, and a lot more, not just getting cohorts)

Diplomacy is being fixed as well to be more about convincing people you are correct, haggling down prices, talking your way out of a fight (instead of changing rampaging berserkers into zealots)

How about reforge a subpar blade into a powerful magical weapon? There's a feat for that :)

[Grod_The_Giant]

This is great stuff, I'll add diplomacy to class skills, which would make some of these things possible.
Better skills are always nice-- especially if you kick those skill points up from the criminally low 2/level-- but really don't make a big difference. He needs class abilities to do stuff like that.

[hakarb]

Better skills are always nice-- especially if you kick those skill points up from the criminally low 2/level-- but really don't make a big difference. He needs class abilities to do stuff like that.

I think I understand your point, let me know how this sounds...

Inspire Confidence: Beginning at 4th level, a fighter can give a rousing speech to inspire his allies. He can affect a number of allies equal to half his fighter level (rounded up) + his charisma modifier. The allies must be able to listen and observe for one full round to be affected. The effect lasts for 5 rounds. A fighter can inspire confidence once per day, gaining additional uses every 4 levels. IE 1/day at 4th level, 2/day at 8th level, and so on.

Inspired allies gain a +2 morale bonus to all saving throws, and +1 to attack and damage rolls. This ability only affects allies and does not affect the fighter.


Fits the flavor of the fighter, and it's the classic speech before the fight that we all know and love.

Also, let's keep in mind, that the fighter ends up with nearly 20 feats by level 20. There's a LOT of room to customize since many feat trees are being simplified.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I
Inspire Confidence: Beginning at 4th level, a fighter can give a rousing speech to inspire his allies. He can affect a number of allies equal to half his fighter level (rounded up) + his charisma modifier. The allies must be able to listen and observe for one full round to be affected. The effect lasts for 5 rounds. A fighter can inspire confidence once per day, gaining additional uses every 4 levels. IE 1/day at 4th level, 2/day at 8th level, and so on.

Inspired allies gain a +2 morale bonus to all saving throws, and +1 to attack and damage rolls. This ability only affects allies and does not affect the fighter.
That's the sort of thing I'm talking about, yeah. (Although it should scale somehow, and needs a duration). Try to come up with more of that sort of thing.


Also, let's keep in mind, that the fighter ends up with nearly 20 feats by level 20. There's a LOT of room to customize since many feat trees are being simplified.
It's hard to judge that sort of thing without seeing some of the revised feats. It's also worth remembering that each class should have its own identity. The fighter is bad not just because it's weak, but because it's got nothing to call its own. He's doing the same things as everyone else. He needs his own schtick. The barbarian gets rage, the druid gets wild shape, even the monk gets flurry of blows.

[hakarb]

That's the sort of thing I'm talking about, yeah. (Although it should scale somehow, and needs a duration). Try to come up with more of that sort of thing.


It's hard to judge that sort of thing without seeing some of the revised feats. It's also worth remembering that each class should have its own identity. The fighter is bad not just because it's weak, but because it's got nothing to call its own. He's doing the same things as everyone else. He needs his own schtick. The barbarian gets rage, the druid gets wild shape, even the monk gets flurry of blows.

That's a good point, each class should be a paragon of whatever they represent. Here's what I've got going.

the bard is the legendary performer
the cleric is the pious holy man that lives a life of devotion
the paladin is a zealot that seeks to root out and destroy evil
the wizard is the studious master of the arcane
the fighter is the weapons master and leader of men
the barbarian is raw wild strength that civilized men fear
the rogue is the skillful master of the shadows
the ranger is the hunter that lives on the edge of civilization
the druid is the defender of nature and shapeshifter
the monk is the disciplined master of the body
the sorcerer is the wielder of ancestral magic

This whole thread has been GREAT so far for the creative process btw.

[Pan151]

Fortify a position
Train an army
Negotiate a cease-fire or surrender with the leader of an opposing force
Swim across an ocean and still be ready to fight the moment he crawls back onto dry land
Fell a mighty oak with one swipe of a blade
Pack your supplies, gear, and looted treasure with such expert efficiency that you'd swear he's got a Bag of Holding he's not telling you about
Perform crude-but-effective battlefield medicine on a fallen ally
Rally morale-broken allies for a counterattack
Tell you at a glance which of the 500 seemingly-identical hobgoblins in front of you is the warchief whose death will break the horde
Shove an ally out of the way of an oncoming attack, taking the brunt himself
Use his shield to save that batty wizard from the poison arrow trap he carelessly tripped
Convince the king that his battle plan is better than the incompetent general's
Reforge a subpar blade into a masterwork weapon


That's just off the top of my head.

Now, a given fighter shouldn't necessarily be able to do all of those things. And he shouldn't necessarily be able to do them quite as well as a character whose class specializes in that kind of thing. But he should be able to do several of them, of his choice, competently.

If you buy into the idea that a fighter should only be a beatstick, then any effort you make to fix the class is going to fail.

Fighters can already do most of these things. The problem is, anyone can do most of these things, so long as they invest some skill points and maybe a couple of feats to do so.

Whether you like it or not, fighters are supposed to be masters of armed combat. You can give them as many abilities that improve that as you wish, but mastery of arms by itself will never translate to anything other than being able to beat things with a stick really well. The class concept itself is narrow like that. That's not to say that you cannot give them extra skill points, skill bonuses, cool feats and the like, but they're never gonna be able to do anything unique - not unless you redisign them from scratch to not be fighters anymore (see warblade).

PS. Since when is the fighter supposed to be a "leader"? The paladin is supposed to be the leader warrior archetype, what with the high charisma and noble cause. The average fighter is a guy that's really good with weapons and really bad with anything else.

[Grod_The_Giant]

the fighter is the weapons master and leader of men
That seems like the part to focus on, then. Start by ripping apart the marshal and feeding him lock, stock, and barrel to the fighter. Maybe also steal some of the bard's inspirational stuff. If the fighter is to be the best leader, he should be as good at buffing his allies as a bard or cleric.

[Doc_Maynot]

And maybe instead of a morale bonus, perhaps make it a competence since he's not inspiring them to do it, he's telling them what to do and how to do it better?

[RedMage125]

Fell a mighty oak with one swipe of a blade




Cut down the mightiest tree in the forest wiiiith...a Herring!

[hakarb]

And maybe instead of a morale bonus, perhaps make it a competence since he's not inspiring them to do it, he's telling them what to do and how to do it better?

Yes! That's great.


That seems like the part to focus on, then. Start by ripping apart the marshal and feeding him lock, stock, and barrel to the fighter. Maybe also steal some of the bard's inspirational stuff. If the fighter is to be the best leader, he should be as good at buffing his allies as a bard or cleric.

The marshal works a bit different, but I'm going to rework his aura to be something that the fight can use that will fit the flavor and still give the fighter the ability to be a powerful frontline fighter while inspiring his allies.

This will take some time to type up, will update tomorrow morning.

[TheIronGolem]

Fighters can already do most of these things.
Not well, though. And in some cases, not without explicit effort on the part of the DM. And they should be able to.



The problem is, anyone can do most of these things, so long as they invest some skill points and maybe a couple of feats to do so.


That's not necessarily a problem. Certainly, single-classed Fighters need not be able to, for example, compete with Bards in party-facing as a rule. However, a Fighter who specs for it should be able to Diplomance about as well as that Bard in matters relating to combat and warfare.


Whether you like it or not, fighters are supposed to be masters of armed combat.
I don't know why you're suggesting I don't want fighters to be that. I do want them to be that...just not exclusively that.


You can give them as many abilities that improve that as you wish, but mastery of arms by itself will never translate to anything other than being able to beat things with a stick really well.
Which is why they need to be given reasonable out-of-combat utility in addition to superior combat abilities.


The class concept itself is narrow like that.
That's silly. Fighter is probably the conceptually widest of all the classes (Rogue being a possible exception). The only narrow part of the fighter is its mechanical design.



That's not to say that you cannot give them extra skill points, skill bonuses, cool feats and the like, but they're never gonna be able to do anything unique - not unless you redisign them from scratch to not be fighters anymore (see warblade).

You're missing the point. Fighters don't need to be "unique". They do need to excel at both combat and non-combat things that are similar to or related to combat. Their current design is half-hearted on the former and almost totally lacking in the latter.

[Yondu]

Fortify a position
Train an army
Negotiate a cease-fire or surrender with the leader of an opposing force
Swim across an ocean and still be ready to fight the moment he crawls back onto dry land
Fell a mighty oak with one swipe of a blade
Pack your supplies, gear, and looted treasure with such expert efficiency that you'd swear he's got a Bag of Holding he's not telling you about
Perform crude-but-effective battlefield medicine on a fallen ally
Rally morale-broken allies for a counterattack
Tell you at a glance which of the 500 seemingly-identical hobgoblins in front of you is the warchief whose death will break the horde
Shove an ally out of the way of an oncoming attack, taking the brunt himself
Use his shield to save that batty wizard from the poison arrow trap he carelessly tripped
Convince the king that his battle plan is better than the incompetent general's
Reforge a subpar blade into a masterwork weapon


That's just off the top of my head.

Now, a given fighter shouldn't necessarily be able to do all of those things. And he shouldn't necessarily be able to do them quite as well as a character whose class specializes in that kind of thing. But he should be able to do several of them, of his choice, competently.

If you buy into the idea that a fighter should only be a beatstick, then any effort you make to fix the class is going to fail.

Amen The Iron Golem, the fighter is all of this, as far I remember, the fighter in ADD Dark Sun was in this spirit, more a leader and battlefield expert than a men with a sword...

[Gemini476]

PS. Since when is the fighter supposed to be a "leader"? The paladin is supposed to be the leader warrior archetype, what with the high charisma and noble cause. The average fighter is a guy that's really good with weapons and really bad with anything else.

The Fighting Man being a Leader of Men has kind of been a thing as long as the Fighter has. The Wizard gets a tower, the Rogue gets a thieves' guild, and the Fighter gets a castle. Where did you think the Leadership feat came from?

It also has a bit to do with him advancing faster than everyone else and thus being stronger at the same XP count, and also how they're generally the ones in front of the marching order since they can tank more.


Fighters may advance as high as 36th level.
Their rapid advances, both in combat ability and
in their amount of hit points, make them natural
leaders in human settlements, especially small
ones. High level fighters spend a lot of their time
training and leading men-at-arms, clearing the
wilderness of monsters, and expanding human
settlements.

When a fighter attains 9th level (becomes a “Lord”), he can automatically attract men-at-arms. These soldiers, having heard of the fighter, come for the chance to gain fame, adventure, and cash. They are loyal as long as they are well-treated, successful, and paid well. Abusive treatment or a disastrous campaign can lead to grumbling, desertion, and possibly mutiny. To attract the men, the fighter must have a castle or stronghold and sizeable manor lands around it. As he claims and rules this land, soldiers journey to his domain, thereby increasing his power. Furthermore, the fighter can tax and develop these lands, gaining a steady income from them. Your DM has information about gaining and running a barony.

In addition to regular men-at-arms, the 9th-level fighter also attracts an elite bodyguard (his “household guards”). Although these soldiers are still mercenaries, they have greater loyalty to their Lord than do common soldiers. In return, they expect better treatment and more pay than the common soldier receives. Although the elite unit can be chosen randomly, it is better to ask your DM what unit your fighter attracts. This allows him to choose a troop consistent with the campaign.

[ed. note: The tables are varied in their number and type, but he will easily get more than a hundred followers. Most 0th level, but a few dozen 1st level and a single 6th level character can also be expected.]

It was kind of their thing, whilst the Paladin got the spells and the Ranger had an animal companion. The Barbarian came later and hated spells and got a whole horde of barbarians, and I'm sure that there are more examples because AD&D had a crazy amount of kits and whatnot. I prefer Basic, and that's not just because BECMI is Fighter Edition.

Speaking of Fighter Edition, one suggestion I have is to emulate that a bit. Not to the degree that BECMI did (http://greywulf.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/weaponmastery.jpg), necessarily, but giving the Fighter some extra ways to make Weapon A different from Weapon B would be quite nice. As is they don't really have any unique options, after all. The Fighter is just what everyone has except more of it, and psuedopouncing 4/encounter doesn't really change that.
Not to mention that Barbarians are still better at fighting at all levels except 17-19 because of Rage increasing Strength and Strength increasing the same things that Weapon Training does. You need to grab Weapon Focus/Specialization to keep up, and at that point you're competing with combat feats vs. rage powers and that's not a fight that anyone wants to see.

[HammeredWharf]

Here are the guidelines I used in my fighter fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16875723&postcount=1):

- The fighter is a highly trained, professional soldier. Her abilities should reflect that.
- The fighter is a capable leader. She should be able to distinguish friend from foe (via Knowledge: Nobility), attend strategy meetings (via Knowledge: Geography) and know the details of many historical battles (via Knowledge: History).
- The fighter is a guard. She should have Spot and Listen as class skills.
- Unlike the Barbarian, the Fighter is a smart soldier, with a variety of special attacks at her disposal. She should benefit from Intelligence.
- The fighter is a class, so there should be something interesting and/or unique about her.
- Finally, the fighter shouldn't stumble around the battlefield, getting AoO:d constantly.

The last one is particularly important and often forgotten. The "elite warrior" class should be able to avoid AoOs for movement. This doesn't necessarily mean giving her Tumble - she's a fighter, not some silly acrobat - but some ability to move around without getting tripped and killed is pretty much necessary. I did it by letting her use Spot to avoid AoOs and fluffed it as seeing the cracks in your enemies' attention.

[Yondu]

[QUOTE=Gemini476;17649969]The Fighting Man being a Leader of Men has kind of been a thing as long as the Fighter has. The Wizard gets a tower, the Rogue gets a thieves' guild, and the Fighter gets a castle. Where did you think the Leadership feat came from? QUOTE]

I have an issue on the leadership Feat especially for fighters, because it is based on a generally dump stat, Charisma... I do think that if Goods tend to follow a Charismatic person, they can also follow someone who's physical prowess is exceptionnal, I think that leadership should be linked to the main stat of the class or charisma, whichever is higher, I don't think that orcs or barbarian follow only a charismatic leader if he is weak but highly charismatic....

[Andion Isurand]

The Might Makes Right feat (Races of Faerûn 166), allows one to add their strength score to their Leadership score for the purpose of determining how many followers they get from the Leadership feat.

[Gwendol]

Person Man has made the Knight Champion class, which is a combo of various classes. Take a look at that for inspiration: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?304306-3-5-Knight-Champion-Fighter-Knight-Samurai-Paladin-fix&p=16056437#post16056437

You might also want to check out his guide of melee combos: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127026-3-X-Person-Man-s-Guide-to-Melee-Combos

It has been suggested (Curmudgeon) that fighters get access to all feats in a tree simply by taking the first feat in the tree.

While I applaud your effort, please take some time to look into what others have done/proposed. You might find something to your liking.

[Yondu]

The Might Makes Right feat (Races of Faerûn 166), allows one to add their strength score to their Leadership score for the purpose of determining how many followers they get from the Leadership feat.

But you have to use two feats, and others characters, one.... not much an issue in PF but in 3.5....

[Andion Isurand]

Well, as written, the feat allows you to use strength in addition to charisma.

[bekeleven]

The problem is WotC already reworked the fighter, they called it the warblade. Short of giving a fighter maneuvers like that, or giving them supernatural abilities and spells like a paladin, there is no way to fix the fighter. The fighter is intentionally generic, and some people want a dude that just hits things with a weapon and nothing else, and those people are happy with the fighter. For everyone else, they seek out the ToB classes or other things that do have those combat options.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=332829)'s my tier 3 maneuverless replacement for the fighter. It's intentionally generic. So generic, in fact, that it's also a tier 3 replacement for the barbarian, rogue, scout, and marshal.

Tier 3 without spells or spell replacers is easy to emulate, it just requires a strong chassis combined with real class features.

[Svata]

For the part about being able to tell who the leader of the enemy force is, maybe a 3/day ability to know which enemy in a group has the highest CR, and what CR that enemy is.

[Doc_Maynot]

For the part about being able to tell who the leader of the enemy force is, maybe a 3/day ability to know which enemy in a group has the highest CR, and what CR that enemy is.

Or maybe something like, "X/(day/encounter) a fighter may use this feature to gain a competence bonus equal to (Fighter Level?) on a trained knowledge check to identify monsters and their special vulnerabilities."

[hakarb]

Yes! That's great.



The marshal works a bit different, but I'm going to rework his aura to be something that the fight can use that will fit the flavor and still give the fighter the ability to be a powerful frontline fighter while inspiring his allies.

This will take some time to type up, will update tomorrow morning.

Okay, here it comes.


Combat Leadership(EX): 1 + charisma modifier per day

Beginning at 4th level, a fighter can use his martial knowledge to direct his allies and improve their abilities in many situations. He can learn various ways directing his allies and learns new ways to improve his allies as his level increases.

The fighter spends a full round ordering, directing, encouraging, cajoling, or calming allies. The affected allies must be able to understand the fighter's language and be able to hear the full speech to gain the bonus.

The competence bonus gained is equal to 1/4 the fighter's level (rounded down) + his charisma modifier. This bonus last for 5 rounds + the fighter's charisma modifier.

The fighter may gain a new effect every 4 levels, for a maximum of 5 effects at level 20. Effects cannot be changed once chosen.

Hold Position: Allies gain a bonus to Armor Class, and to Combat Maneuver Defense

Motivate Ability: Choose one ability score, allies gain a bonus to all checks and skill checks that use that score. This effect can be learned multiple times, it's effects applying to a different ability score each time.

March on: Allies gain a bonus to movement speed equal to 5 ft X the bonus

Refuse Death: Allies gain the ability to fight while at less than 0 hitpoints, the bonus gained is the limit of negative hit points they can fight at while concious. If an ally was already unconcious, he does not regain conciousness. When the effect ends, allies remain at negative hit point totals, but do not continue to bleed out and are considered stabilized.

Press the advantage: Allies gain a bonus to attack and damage rolls when flanking an opponent, or attacking a prone opponent.

Defy magic: Choose one saving throw, allies gain a bonus to that saving throw. This effect can be learned multiple times, it's effects applying to a different saving throw each time.

Don't miss: Choose melee or ranged attack rolls, allies gain a bonus to the chosen roll. This effect can be learned multiple times, it's effects applying to a different roll each time.

[Vaz]

Sense Motive allows you to not only look out for using bluff in combat to make Feints, but also to check the targets HD (Complete Adventurer, I think), opposed by Bluff once again.

Perhaps to both you can add your class level, or learn additional information more akin to a knowledge check - maybe using Sense Motive to replace knowledge checks to identify monsters? Maybe sense enchantment also giving you a party face secondary role?

If you're looking at making an effective fighter, you might want to consider including status effects;

Dazing, Nausea, Fear, Stun, Entangling, Disarming, Bleeding, etc, without relying on fighter bonus feats (20 feats is still quite low when 15 or so are taken up to make a chain tripper, or something.

Aptitute, to apply weapon specific feats to others (like Warblade, perhaps, but explicitly allowing things like Dire Flail Smash to apply to any weapon, not just the Dire Flail, provided you meet all other prereqs etc).

Some form of bonus damage for TWF - perhaps +class level to all attacks - Weapon Specialization could be changed to not a set value, but a value equal to your levels in the fighter class, whichever is higher.

[Gemini476]

For the part about being able to tell who the leader of the enemy force is, maybe a 3/day ability to know which enemy in a group has the highest CR, and what CR that enemy is.

I'd just give them the ability to constantly know which enemy within a group has the highest CR. Maybe make it a move action/swift action or something, if you really need that.

Have it be something like Detect Evil, where the CRs are in some kind of broad categories. Maybe like this?

(All Challenge Ratings are in relation to the Fighter's character level, chart is stolen wholesale from p.49 of the DMG)


Strength
CR


Easy
CR lower than character level


Challenging
CR equals character level


Very difficult
CR 1-4 higher than character level


Overpowering
CR 5+ higher than character level



I don't really see any reason for it to be limited to a certain number of times per day - why would a Fighter suddenly stop being able to see who the most powerful enemy is?

[Andion Isurand]

Some form of bonus damage for TWF - perhaps +class level to all attacks - Weapon Specialization could be changed to not a set value, but a value equal to your levels in the fighter class, whichever is higher.

I've been dabbling with scaling fighter feats (http://magerune.blogspot.com/2014/04/fighter-feat-scaling.html) according to the number of feats one has from the list of fighter bonus feats, while also giving the fighter a bonus feat at every class level (and a d12 hit dice).

However, not all fighter feats lend themselves to scaling as easily as those I've altered.

[Grod_The_Giant]

For the part about being able to tell who the leader of the enemy force is, maybe a 3/day ability to know which enemy in a group has the highest CR, and what CR that enemy is.
Maybe also say that if you kill him, all of his allies have to make Will saves or be shaken for a bit (or worse-- a shaken/frightened/panicked tracked based on HD, CR, or how bad they fail the save would be great) . Because, you know, their leader just died.

[Svata]

Better yet, Will save or run away, as if effected by Turn Undead. To represent morale breaking.