Warblade/Berserker build

[Endril]

I know it's been done before, but I'd like to build a frenzied berserker that uses the iron heart surge maneuver to end frenzy. I'll be playing a home-brew fairy race (similar to a weak pixie) -- for flavor. I'm running into some problems with feat selection and multi-classing; the favored class would be druid or sorcerer, not fighter/barbarian/warblade. I was looking at doing something like this:

(level 10 character):
2 barbarian
2 warblade
2 fighter
4 frenzied berserker

If I understand the rules correctly, do I switch out my maneuvers for higher ones at level 6 (warblade 2 + 4 levels non-warblade = effectively level 4), level 8 (+2 more prestige class, IL 6), and 10 (IL 8)? And I still only have 3 maneuvers because of my 2 levels in warblade, but they can be levels 1-4 because my initiator level is effectively 8? Or did I do that wrong?

Second, I originally wanted to go 4 fighter with this build and take weapon mastery at level 9, but now it looks like I can't. I'm trying to think of a way to still put out damage without giving up a berserker level for a 3rd fighter level so I can take specialization (3 fighter + 2 warblade qualifies me), and I'm already down a feat because I no longer have 4 levels in fighter. After I take power attack, cleave, destructive/intimidating rage, I'll have my level 6 and level 9 feats still open. My options are leave it as is and try to think of something to do with those 2 feats other than specialization (extra rage comes to mind), or drop a level of berzerker for fighter so I can take weapon specialization at level 9, which allows me to take mastery at 12. Any idea which is better?

Note: I'm not arguing that +2 damage from specialization is very important as a feat; I'm saying that it's hard for me to pass up the +2 to hit and +4 to damage from specialization + mastery when I'm power attacking.

[Immabozo]

First, no, you do not make your choices of maneuvers to take at level 10. You take them when it is legal for you to take them. You take them at level 3 and 4 (IL 2 and 3 respectively) with how you have your build laid out. But there is no reason not to take them after fighter, giving you a whopping 1 IL, giving you IL 3 and 4, giving you access to three 2nd level maneuvers and one 2nd level stance and one third level maneuver.

Second, never take only 3 levels of fighter. Either take 2, or 4. 3 is a dead level.

third, weapon specialization/master/etc sucks. Dont bother with them. There are MUCH better things for you to do with your feats.

Four, Shock Trooper is what you want. You dont care about such a tiny bonus to hit. Shock Trooper entirely shifts the minus, plus gives you some nifty other combat maneuvers

[Endril]

First, no, you do not make your choices of maneuvers to take at level 10. You take them when it is legal for you to take them. You take them at level 3 and 4 (IL 2 and 3 respectively) with how you have your build laid out. But there is no reason not to take them after fighter, giving you a whopping 1 IL, giving you IL 3 and 4, giving you access to three 2nd level maneuvers and one 2nd level stance and one third level maneuver.
I must have worded this poorly. I meant do I get to switch out the lower level maneuvers I start with for higher level ones at even levels beginning at IL 4? That seems to be what the book is saying. And I was thinking each prestige class level adds to IL 1 for 1, but that isn't looking right; I think they meant martial adept prestige classes, and the book is worded in a confusing way.

What I'm getting out of what I read and what you're saying is I can wait until level 5-6 to take warblade, get 3 manuevers of up to level 2 at level 5 (IL 3), and then a 4th maneuver of up to level 2 at level 6 (IL 4), and at character level 10 (IL 6), I have the option of switching out a 2nd level maneuver for a 3rd level?


Second, never take only 3 levels of fighter. Either take 2, or 4. 3 is a dead level.
I usually tell ppl this myself; 1, 2, or 4 levels is best, primarily for feats. I was noticing I do a lot more damage/turn with mastery, primarily because I can dump the +2 into PA and effectively get +6 damage from the feat. The reason I was considering 3 levels is combined with the 2 warblade, I could qualify for specialization so I could take mastery later. I hadn't considered shock trooper. That seems like a much better option. I could take it at level 9, it combines nicely with lion's pounce from barbarian, and I can help nullify the low AC with wall of blades.

Does anyone think the wording in frenzy (for example, nothing that requires "patience") would prohibit the use of maneuvers?

[Immabozo]

I must have worded this poorly. I meant do I get to switch out the lower level maneuvers I start with for higher level ones at even levels beginning at IL 4? That seems to be what the book is saying. And I was thinking each prestige class level adds to IL 1 for 1, but that isn't looking right; I think they meant martial adept prestige classes, and the book is worded in a confusing way.

What I'm getting out of what I read and what you're saying is I can wait until level 5-6 to take warblade, get 3 manuevers of up to level 2 at level 5 (IL 3), and then a 4th maneuver of up to level 2 at level 6 (IL 4), and at character level 10 (IL 6), I have the option of switching out a 2nd level maneuver for a 3rd level?

I remember something about this. My person mastery of these rules is non-existent here.


I usually tell ppl this myself; 1, 2, or 4 levels is best, primarily for feats. I was noticing I do a lot more damage/turn with mastery, primarily because I can dump the +2 into PA and effectively get +6 damage from the feat. The reason I was considering 3 levels is combined with the 2 warblade, I could qualify for specialization so I could take mastery later. I hadn't considered shock trooper. That seems like a much better option. I could take it at level 9, it combines nicely with lion's pounce from barbarian, and I can help nullify the low AC with wall of blades.

Does anyone think the wording in frenzy (for example, nothing that requires "patience") would prohibit the use of maneuvers?

So that is 1 dead level of warrior and 2 horrendously sub par feats for a slight increase in damage? When PA, Shock Trooper, imp bull rush, knockback and combat reflexes is the greatest defense I have personally used in a game.

Full PA and knockback with reach, you will be throwing around a +45 to +65 to your bull rush (you dont move with them) after your attacks AND on AoO you get each time someone moves into your threatened squares, with reach, you will be devastating in combat. Who care what your AC is when no one can hit you with any regularity?

And Shocktrooper gives you the ability to guide them into obstacles, other characters, off cliffs, into pit traps, etc

EDIT: thats a 5 useful feat investment that are also prereqs for other things vs 2 useless feats and 1 dead level. 5 feats is easy with 2 flaws and two levels of warrior.

[Endril]

I guess it's a moot point because I'm not large, but how do you get +45 to your bull rush? Seems like you would have to be epic even with a two handed weapon, unless you're allowed to triple/quadruple the bonus using berserker's improved power attack, but that would require inferring rules that aren't stated.

EDIT: I realize +45 would be easy enough if you have 20 levels, but you were saying +45 or +65, which made me think you mean +25 without the +20/40 bonus from power attack, and that seemed a bit ridiculous for a bull rush modifier.

[Immabozo]

I guess it's a moot point because I'm not large, but how do you get +45 to your bull rush? Seems like you would have to be epic even with a two handed weapon, unless you're allowed to triple/quadruple the bonus using berserker's improved power attack, but that would require inferring rules that aren't stated.

EDIT: I realize +45 would be easy enough if you have 20 levels, but you were saying +45 or +65, which made me think you mean +25 without the +20/40 bonus from power attack, and that seemed a bit ridiculous for a bull rush modifier.

THF + Power Attack + Leap Attack + FB increase + combat brute + shock trooper at only level 10 you can get a -10 AC for a +45 before D20 roll, Expansion (which your DM might let you qualify for the feat, or take a LA/RHD for the size)

So that is +45 (PA) + 6 (18 str + 2 level +2 items) + 4 or 8 (size you could conceivably get up to +12) at level 10 you could easily throw a d20 +51 to +55. No body will be able to match your opposed bull rush. Laugh as you throw around stupid dwarves that wasted a feat for a measly +4

And you get another AoO for throwing them outside your reach and them running back in.

[Endril]

"If you score a hit while you are using the Power
Attack feat, you can make a free bull rush attempt against
the foe you hit, applying the number by which you reduced
your attack roll as a bonus on the opposed Strength check
(as well as on the damage you deal). If you hit with a two handed
weapon, you can apply double that number on
the opposed Strength check."

So that's +20 from PA and whatever you get from strength (although, even then it is getting impossibly hard to beat). It looks like you're adding the same amount to bull rush that you do to damage from power attack, and the feat isn't worded that way. Not that it will matter with this character; I actually want to stay small. You've sold me on shock trooper though. I might also find room for leap attack and/or combat brute in the build, but I might also want extra rage or mad foam rager.

[Immabozo]

it's not worded to say you can, but the way its worded naturally seems to leap into the other bonuses to PA from other sources, stacking onto it. I believe it to be RAI. Other feats that are not pre-reqs (i.e. leap attack, combat brute and FB level features) are never mentioned in feats.

But I am glad I sold you on shocktrooper. it really is a very good feat. You might also consider Steadfast Determination which lets you use con instead of wis on will saves