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View Full Version : Optimization Feats vs. Stat Boosts



Angelalex242
2014-06-18, 11:52 PM
In this edition, the great choice for optimization is stats vs. feats.

So...when are feats more important then boosting your raw stats to 20s? And what feats actually pull their weight better then another statboost?

For example...

I have a human Paladin with Str 16, Cha 16. Ideally, I'd like to get those stats to 20.

However, for strength, I could simply rely on a belt of giant strength and focus on getting charisma to 20, then grab a couple feats. (there doesn't seem to be a cloak of charisma in this edition. Not yet, anyway...)

What's the best way to do this?

Fwiffo86
2014-06-18, 11:56 PM
There is a discussion about this somewhere. The general consensus I believe is to use the feats instead of the attributes.

Yes you can supplement with Attribute boosting gear, but there is a limit. It's not like previous editions where you can wear a piece of gear on every extremity and carry around a sack full of other ones. If you notice, magic items aren't really needed overall.

See the description of Asmodeus. I think thats his name. He takes half damage from non-magical weapons. Which means.... you don't "NEED" magic weapons. He also only has an AC of 17. Your average character (especially at 17th) should be able to hit this AC routinely.

Angelalex242
2014-06-19, 12:18 AM
I dunno. Charisma 20's still pretty useful.

But, for that Paladin, what feats should I be using? I'm currently set up sword and board, in an attempt to keep my first level character from dying.

But by level 4, I'll face the first choice.

Lokiare
2014-06-19, 01:39 AM
There is a discussion about this somewhere. The general consensus I believe is to use the feats instead of the attributes.

Yes you can supplement with Attribute boosting gear, but there is a limit. It's not like previous editions where you can wear a piece of gear on every extremity and carry around a sack full of other ones. If you notice, magic items aren't really needed overall.

See the description of Asmodeus. I think thats his name. He takes half damage from non-magical weapons. Which means.... you don't "NEED" magic weapons. He also only has an AC of 17. Your average character (especially at 17th) should be able to hit this AC routinely.


I dunno. Charisma 20's still pretty useful.

But, for that Paladin, what feats should I be using? I'm currently set up sword and board, in an attempt to keep my first level character from dying.

But by level 4, I'll face the first choice.

Magic item drops also aren't ensured, unless your DM is going with the default magic item tables. In which case you can probably just grab feats all the way. If not, then I'd say it still doesn't matter much. Your damage increases over levels will far outstrip your strength modifier of +1 that you gain from getting a slightly higher strength. Not only that your proficiency bonus will also outstrip it, while AC remains static on enemies. In almost all cases taking the feats are better as long as you avoid trap feats.

Kurald Galain
2014-06-19, 03:56 AM
So...when are feats more important then boosting your raw stats to 20s? And what feats actually pull their weight better then another statboost?
Getting +2 (a +1 modifier) to your primary attack stat (strength for any melee character, int for a wizard, and so forth) is a decent bonus but not all that impressive; this is comparable to Weapon Focus, which in 3E is generally considered a weak feat. Getting +2 to any other stat is really a waste of a feat.

From the latest playtest packet, most characters get four or five feats over the scope of 20 levels. From an optimization standpoint, you should really spend all of those on maneuvers, magical tricks, multiclassing, rerolls, and similar extras; and you're not going to run out of good picks before you run out of levels. From a flavor standpoint, I would take any flavorful feat that fits my character over a +1 bonus any day of the week.

So yeah. Raising ability scores? It's a trap (possibly excepting your primary).

Angelalex242
2014-06-19, 04:11 AM
Which feats are considered traps? Again, Paladin at the moment.

Possible choices that make some kind of sense...

Alertness, Tactical Warrior, Shield Master, Mounted Combatant, Mobile, Lucky, Heavy Armor Master, (Fencing Master?) (Great Weapon Master?) Charger.

If I can have up to 5 of those, which 5 should I get, and in what order? Assume I'm going Pal 20.

Envyus
2014-06-19, 06:19 AM
Which feats are considered traps? Again, Paladin at the moment.

Possible choices that make some kind of sense...

Alertness, Tactical Warrior, Shield Master, Mounted Combatant, Mobile, Lucky, Heavy Armor Master, (Fencing Master?) (Great Weapon Master?) Charger.

If I can have up to 5 of those, which 5 should I get, and in what order? Assume I'm going Pal 20.

All Feats to him are trap feats.

Kurald Galain
2014-06-19, 06:28 AM
Which feats are considered traps? Again, Paladin at the moment.
That depends on which playtest package you're using. Also, note that the free basic set is coming out in about a month, which will undoubtedly offer you more feats to choose from. You're not going to level up to 20 before that :smallbiggrin:

da_chicken
2014-06-19, 06:51 AM
Feats are still considered an optional rule, IIRC. I doubt they will be in Basic.

Angelalex242
2014-06-19, 07:01 AM
http://www.elliotnegelev.com/atlin/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/00-All-Rules-Combined-101413.pdf

I'm using the feats as listed there.

So...of THAT list...which 5 feats, in which order? (Or should I just go ahead and max out my Str and Cha after all if you guys have no better ideas?)

Kurald Galain
2014-06-19, 07:01 AM
Feats are still considered an optional rule, IIRC. I doubt they will be in Basic.

That's a good point, but leaving out feats would vastly reduce the interest in Basic. I would expect that one of the goals of the free Basic set is to converting 3E and 4E fans, and many such players would probably consider the absence of feats a dealbreaker.

Kurald Galain
2014-06-19, 07:09 AM
http://www.elliotnegelev.com/atlin/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/00-All-Rules-Combined-101413.pdf

Oh wow, that's a horrible character sheet. I'm glad they changed that!

In terms of feats, if you want an offensive character I'd go with Polearm Master, Charger, Mobile, Alert, and boosting your strength once.
If you want a defensive character I'd go with Fencing Master, Heavy Armor Master, Shield Master, Alert, and Lucky.

Millennium
2014-06-19, 07:10 AM
That's a good point, but leaving out feats would vastly reduce the interest in Basic. I would expect that one of the goals of the free Basic set is to converting 3E and 4E fans, and many such players would probably consider the absence of feats a dealbreaker.

More to the point, don't the Starter Set excerpts already show a feat or two? It's unclear what will or will not be in Basic, but I think it's pretty safe to assume that it will, at a bare minimum, contain and expand upon everything that appears in the Starter Set.

Kurald Galain
2014-06-19, 07:14 AM
More to the point, don't the Starter Set excerpts already show a feat or two?

It does not. We've seen the TOC of the (short) starter set rulebook and a character sheet for one of the pregens, and neither of them has any feats in it.

Person_Man
2014-06-19, 07:55 AM
A lot will depend on whether or not they actually stick to Bounded Accuracy in the final version of the game.

If bonuses are extremely rare and do not continuously creep up as you gain levels, and in most combats you spend most of the time making rolls modified by one attribute (like Str for a Fighter), then my guess is that the optimal path will be to max out your primary attribute, and then use everything else for Feats.

If bonuses are somewhat or very common (can be gained through class abilities, magic items, spells, etc) and/or automatically increase as you gain levels, then spending a rare resource on a bonus to an attribute is a poor decision.

Based on what we've seen so far, I'm guessing that something closer to latter will be true, especially once they publish a few supplements.

Angelalex242
2014-06-19, 09:47 AM
Hmmm.

Which order should the feats be taken in for best effect?

That is, which feat do you NEED first at level 4, and so on.

I think Charisma is actually best for defense, as Charisma to saves is still a thing, and there's no cloak of resistance item yet that I've seen. And magic is always a bigger threat then melee.

Both suggestions (offense and defense) mention Alert, so it seems like it's likely the most important 4th level feat.

Lokiare
2014-06-19, 10:27 AM
Which feats are considered traps? Again, Paladin at the moment.

Possible choices that make some kind of sense...

Alertness, Tactical Warrior, Shield Master, Mounted Combatant, Mobile, Lucky, Heavy Armor Master, (Fencing Master?) (Great Weapon Master?) Charger.

If I can have up to 5 of those, which 5 should I get, and in what order? Assume I'm going Pal 20.

Alert is a trap option. You can get the equivalent of alert by being a fighter for a few levels. Shield Master is nice. Great Weapon master is nice if you want the extra attack or advantage or whatever it gives now. Heavy Armor Master is nice because there are very few places in the game where you can increase your AC.

Angelalex242
2014-06-19, 10:46 AM
Alert seems to be "Improved Init+Skill Focus(Perception)+Can't be surprised."

At least, in this version.

So in general, it's about as useful as Improved Init.

obryn
2014-06-19, 12:35 PM
A lot will depend on whether or not they actually stick to Bounded Accuracy in the final version of the game.

If bonuses are extremely rare and do not continuously creep up as you gain levels, and in most combats you spend most of the time making rolls modified by one attribute (like Str for a Fighter), then my guess is that the optimal path will be to max out your primary attribute, and then use everything else for Feats.

If bonuses are somewhat or very common (can be gained through class abilities, magic items, spells, etc) and/or automatically increase as you gain levels, then spending a rare resource on a bonus to an attribute is a poor decision.

Based on what we've seen so far, I'm guessing that something closer to latter will be true, especially once they publish a few supplements.
I'm guessing it's the first, personally, and the value will scale based on how much you get out of it. If it's a Fighter and Fighters only attack about 5-6 times per fight, they could skip it for a while. (More like 10-15 times per fight? Boost it.) If it's a Wizard, and a single spell can end a battle, you'll want to max it out ASAP.

Angelalex242
2014-06-19, 01:15 PM
The list of magic items I see in the PDF I linked here suggests that strength has a magic item, but charisma does not. Hence, it seems most prudent to get the strength boosting item and max out charisma manually.

obryn
2014-06-19, 01:18 PM
The list of magic items I see in the PDF I linked here suggests that strength has a magic item, but charisma does not. Hence, it seems most prudent to get the strength boosting item and max out charisma manually.
You can't just "get" the Belt of Giant Strength, though.

There's no assumed magic item marketplace, and last I saw it was "artifact" grade or something like that.

Angelalex242
2014-06-19, 06:06 PM
There doesn't need to be a magic item marketplace.

Divination spell: Where can I find a Belt of Giant Strength?

Answer: Appropriate vision/quest

Problem solved.

It's like that with the Holy Avenger I'll want to wield someday too.

Divination: Where can I find a Holy Avenger?

Etc.

obryn
2014-06-19, 06:53 PM
There doesn't need to be a magic item marketplace.

Divination spell: Where can I find a Belt of Giant Strength?

Answer: Appropriate vision/quest

Problem solved.

It's like that with the Holy Avenger I'll want to wield someday too.

Divination: Where can I find a Holy Avenger?

Etc.
I think you're oversimplifying it more than a smidge. :smallsmile:

da_chicken
2014-06-19, 07:28 PM
There doesn't need to be a magic item marketplace.

Divination spell: Where can I find a Belt of Giant Strength?

Answer: Appropriate vision/quest

Problem solved.

I don't think it works that way. First, gods and their agents aren't omniscient. You're as likely to get "What am I, a tanner? I have no idea." as "Seek the great archmage." Even then, the archmage might not even have it. It might be just the best idea that the deity's agent happens to have.


It's like that with the Holy Avenger I'll want to wield someday too.

Divination: Where can I find a Holy Avenger?

"In hands more worthy than thine."

Second, gods and their agents also don't really reward greed. Don't ask for what you want. Ask for what you need.

unwise
2014-06-19, 07:39 PM
I think that you might want to clarify with your DM your expectations about magical items. You might find yourself getting annoyed and you definetly don't want to be "that guy" that feels entitled to items that may or may not exist at all in a campaign setting. I think you would be disappointed in any game I DMed.

As far as feats go, I am just in love with Polearm Mastery, especially for any class that has some way to knock people back. The extra Opportunity Attacks it gives is just great. Heavy Armor mastery is great if you want to be the tank. Tactical-whatever is great for protecting your friends and gives you more of a feel of a 4e Defender.

The defensive style that lets you grant disadvantage to an enemy attack is just too good to pass up. Combine that with Heavy Armor Mastery and the tactical feat and you have a great defender of the weak.

Angelalex242
2014-06-20, 03:43 AM
I've...never played a Polearm Paladin before. The current equipment on my character is a more standard sword and board.

On magic items, well, it's only level 1 so far. If I put in a request for a Holy Avenger later in life, I'm sure my DM can accommodate me. It's adventure bait, after all, to find the darn thing, and then any number of adventures to use it on appropriate creatures. There's no particular harm in asking for a 'wish list' of magic items from your DM, who can give them to you when it suits his game.

And really, common sense suggests every PC Paladin wants a Holy Avenger. Darn things are classics for a reason, ya know. The sword of swords that only Paladins can use.

Lokiare
2014-06-20, 06:04 AM
I don't think it works that way. First, gods and their agents aren't omniscient. You're as likely to get "What am I, a tanner? I have no idea." as "Seek the great archmage." Even then, the archmage might not even have it. It might be just the best idea that the deity's agent happens to have.



"In hands more worthy than thine."

Second, gods and their agents also don't really reward greed. Don't ask for what you want. Ask for what you need.

Except of course for the gods of greed and avarice right?


I've...never played a Polearm Paladin before. The current equipment on my character is a more standard sword and board.

On magic items, well, it's only level 1 so far. If I put in a request for a Holy Avenger later in life, I'm sure my DM can accommodate me. It's adventure bait, after all, to find the darn thing, and then any number of adventures to use it on appropriate creatures. There's no particular harm in asking for a 'wish list' of magic items from your DM, who can give them to you when it suits his game.

And really, common sense suggests every PC Paladin wants a Holy Avenger. Darn things are classics for a reason, ya know. The sword of swords that only Paladins can use.

I'd talk to the DM ahead of time and see what they think. Some DMs might give you whatever you want while others might roll on the random charts while yet others might not give you anything more than a +1 weapon at level 20.

da_chicken
2014-06-20, 06:26 AM
Except of course for the gods of greed and avarice right?

Sure. Those Gods just exact a price that makes you wish you hadn't asked. After all, they're greedy, too.

Angelalex242
2014-06-20, 10:11 AM
These are forgotten realms gods. Which reminds me, I should probably switch my character to a Greatsword later in life to match up with Torm. Ya know, the Duty&Loyalty guy. His order has Holy Avenging Greatswords, because that's how his priesthood does things, to mimic Duty's Bond. I guess that means I should grab the Heavy Weapon feat.