How should i handle this (be warned I go into detail)

[Nicktacular]

THANKS
Resolved

[vhfforever]

A few quick questions to establish some facts, before other questions follow.

1. What level are they currently?
2. Did you apply penalties due to the Level Adjustments for their races (Drow and Golaith)?
3. At what level were they off performing tasks for a dragon?

[AlanBruce]

Ok, first of, please separate long walls of texts into paragraphs. They make reading the scenario a lot easier.

Now, first a few mechanical nitpicks.


I started the players at lvl 1. They consist of a Drow Ranger, a Human Wizard, and a Goliath Fighter.

Are you factoring in LA? Since if that were the case, the drow would be a 1st level character, with the goliath being a 2nd level and the wizard actually being 3rd. Otherwise, barring some LA buyoff, this party couldn't come to play.


The cause of the problem was that after they finished a quest for a mischievous Copper Dragon they were rewarded with a ring of three wishes that had one remaining wish, the idea was to have them fight over the wish cuz i have seen many a player be greedy in this kind of scenario and if they failed to use it before they left the area that they would have it confiscated by a large force they are going to encounter after leaving said area)

Right here. At low levels of play, awarding such a powerful item to a group that, outside of their character sheets will know how to abuse this ring is generally a bad idea. An alternative solution would have been for the dragon to grant them a wish himself, as a reward, considering what they had done to amuse him.


So in the end he ended up with six rings each with one wish remaining (cuz he didn't specify that they had to have all three wishes remaining), and to make matters worse i couldn't even use the dragon being upset with losing to my advantage because he immediately use a ring to wish for a grande feast "fit for a Dragon of my caliber" to leave on good terms with the dragon.

And I thought one was bad. Be aware that even though your player is a good role player, so should you when playing a copper dragon. They may be good, but they are also tricksters and rarely like being outsmarted by the "younger races". Dragons are also arrogant (even the good ones) and at no point should the copper, if played as a trickster type, had even hinted that the reward would be more wish rings. This would've given you leeway to award him something else- perhaps a satchel of gold from his hoard (which would be quite generous in and of itself for a low level party dealing with a dragon).


So i don't know what to do. He now deals way more damage to enemies then the rest of the party and can one shot like all the monsters i send, and if i raise the bar for encounters they will just one shot the party.

What's done is done. The player outsmarted you in the riddle game, he deserves his reward. Should it had been rings like that? No, you could've tailored a more approrpiate reward given their level. Now, if indeed all of them are level 1, massive strength will not amount for much if you play your enemies intellugently.

They have a guy who can splat people with a single hit? Send a rogue. Chances are the goliath isn't too perceptive and will fail at his spot checks to notice one and not be sneak attacked- something i'm certain the drow should be able to help at.

Casters. Those never engage in melee. A few magic missiles from afar and no matter what strength he has, it will amount for nothing. Enter the wizard, who can counterspell (and hopefully has magic missile prepared) and he just saved the goliath's life.

A high strength score is good. Nobody is denying that, but strength alone does not get you far in d&d, especially at higher levels where there are many other ways to utterly negate his ability to hit hard.

[Nicktacular]

1. they are lvls 3, 5, 6
Drow, Golaith, Human
2. I made it so they had to gain xp equal to to their lvl+the adjustment, ex: to get to lvl 2 for the Goliath he had to get Xp that it would take a lvl 2 human to get to lvl 3 (for encounters i still treated them as if they were lvl 3,2,1)
3.They were lvl 3, 4, 5 when the quest started

[Nicktacular]

Also the idea was that if they got something really nice from the wish like an item or just gold that after they were accosted by the large group of solders that they would lose said items or the ring itself, and in order to get it back they would have to somehow get it from the commanding officer(the ring would have been used before they would have a chance to get it back)

And also the dragon didn't suggest that the reward be more rings it was the player

[HammeredWharf]

The wizard should be fine balance wise, if played right. Goliath fighter is a good combination, especially with +5 Str, but a wizard is still more potent in theory. Of course, wizards are also pretty easy to screw up.

The drow ranger, on the other hand, is in trouble. Drow is a bad race not worth its LA to begin with and combining it with a middle of the road class like ranger is not a good idea. I'd lower his LA to +1 and see if it helps.

[vhfforever]

Hindsight and all...one Wish shouldn't have been able to provide for five more wishes. But, that's behind them now, and you're looking at an existing issue.

If I were the other characters, I would be a bit peeved the Goliath took all the glory and rewards in the form of 5 wishes, and perhaps be somewhat less inclined to help him, since he thought his strength was far more important than items that could help the groups survival.

As for how to deal with it, now? Strategy. It's just about the only factor that can come into play to balance the field without it looking like you're just punishing the player for his cunning. That, or have the wishes "wear off" after a set amount of time, with an explanation that you messed up, but so as to not completely take away his success...return the Inherent bonuses to his Strength every 4th level (when he would be getting an ability score increase) to represent him "growing into the enchantment" he cast upon himself.

Or just tell him as a 4th level Fighting Man he shouldn't have known how the wishes worked (assuming he doesn't have enough Knowledge: Arcana or Spellcraft) or enough know-how to even think the Ring of WIshes could be duplicated, and take it away.

[Firechanter]

a group that, outside of their character sheets will know how to abuse this ring

How is that "abuse"? He used it / them fair and square, wishing for effects that are right there in the description of the Wish spell.

Using all 5 Wishes for himself was a bit of a **** move, though, but certainly clever.
One question that remains is how the dragon possesses an arbitrary number of Wish rings. But ofc doesn't change anything about the facts.

The mistake was solely on behalf of the DM who first gave the party an item worth ~33000GP (it sounds like this would exceed their WBL) and then a single player treasure worth 165000GP.

Note that he appears to be planning for the long term. He could have just used one Wish for a Girdle of Giant Strength +6 (or 2 Wishes if you infer that no Wish may be worth more than 25K), and saved the rest for later or share with his party, whatevs. But that +5 Inherent bonus is the thing that most people put off until level 19-20.

So if you look at it straight, the impact of his wishes isn't really that great. The game effect, currently, is that of a +4 Str belt (a 16.000GP item), or a Bull's Strength buff up in all encounters. The bad news is that the impact is going to increase when your Goliath gets his paws on actual Str items, which stack.
You'll just have to get your players through the level range quickly where a 16K item exceeds individual WBL. During that time, hand out custom loot for the other characters and nothing for the Goliath. Luckily that should be easy, since Rangers and Wizards have entirely different needs. And the other poster already gave some ideas how to counter a pure melee build.

[Lord of Shadows]

Ok, so we have a Drow Ranger 3, a Goliath Fighter 5 with STR 27, and a Human Wizard 6.


What's done is done. The player outsmarted you in the riddle game, he deserves his reward. Should it had been rings like that? No, you could've tailored a more appropriate reward given their level. Now, if indeed all of them are level 1, massive strength will not amount for much if you play your enemies intelligently.

They have a guy who can splat people with a single hit? Send a rogue. Chances are the goliath isn't too perceptive and will fail at his spot checks to notice one and not be sneak attacked- something i'm certain the drow should be able to help at.

Casters. Those never engage in melee. A few magic missiles from afar and no matter what strength he has, it will amount for nothing. Enter the wizard, who can counterspell (and hopefully has magic missile prepared) and he just saved the goliath's life.

A high strength score is good. Nobody is denying that, but strength alone does not get you far in d&d, especially at higher levels where there are many other ways to utterly negate his ability to hit hard.

This is generally a good response, although it depends on the other characters (i.e., players) helping the Goliath even if they do realize that he suddenly seems to have gotten stronger. I would run all random encounters straight up as rolled, and this is where the other players might notice something is different, especially for random encounters that are with monsters that aren't strategy-minded.

Opponents who use strategy are going to be smart about it. It will be relatively obvious that the Goliath is the party "tank," and smart enemies will react accordingly. Besides sneak attacks and magic missiles, they are likely to use ranged weapons and/or weapons with reach to get to the tank. Also consider trip and disarm. If there is a Party/NPC/BBEG that the party has a long term conflict with, they will certainly be aware of what the party's strengths are, and will use that information to their advantage. Can you imagine what would happen if someone took over the Goliath? (Failed will saves really suck)


As for how to deal with it, now? Strategy. It's just about the only factor that can come into play to balance the field without it looking like you're just punishing the player for his cunning. That, or have the wishes "wear off" after a set amount of time, with an explanation that you messed up, but so as to not completely take away his success...return the Inherent bonuses to his Strength every 4th level (when he would be getting an ability score increase) to represent him "growing into the enchantment" he cast upon himself.

I'm not too sure I'd do this, unless the character also got the standard ability point in addition to this... .


Or just tell him as a 4th level Fighting Man he shouldn't have known how the wishes worked (assuming he doesn't have enough Knowledge: Arcana or Spellcraft) or enough know-how to even think the Ring of Wishes could be duplicated, and take it away.

This is an interesting idea, although perhaps it should have been implemented at the time of the wishes. Anything you do now to gimp the character may be viewed by the player as punitive.

What might be a better way to take advantage of the Goliath's sudden gain is to have word start spreading around that this "big, dumb, fighter out-riddled a riddle dragon," and just like in real life there are those who seek out the champions just to see if they can be defeated, have some "special" encounters of monsters/NPC's who hunt down this Goliath just to see if he is as good as he thinks he is. This could really put your Riddle-guy through the ringer if you do this a few times and keep using increasingly more difficult riddles. Heck, some NPC might even use a riddle with no answer, just to say they "stumped the one who cannot be stumped." If your player is as good at riddles as you say they are, the character could start getting quite the reputation and begin drawing attention. Just make sure not all of the attention is of the positive sort... <evil grin>
.

[Andezzar]

Hindsight and all...one Wish shouldn't have been able to provide for five more wishes. But, that's behind them now, and you're looking at an existing issue.He didn't. He used the ring to cast a single spell, Suggestion. The dragon rolled a 1 on the save. Everything else is negotiation on the part of the two parties.

[vhfforever]

He didn't. He used the ring to cast a single spell, Suggestion. The dragon rolled a 1 on the save. Everything else is negotiation on the part of the two parties.

I completely glossed over that when reading, apologies.

Then the issue is...why in the world does this Dragon have so many partially used Rings of Wishes lying around?

[prufock]

Your mistake was not in allowing the suggestion to work, but in assuming the dragon had that many rings of wishes lying around. Those things are rare and precious, and the one he gave the party should probably have been his only one. Either he should have said "I don't have that many rings of wishes, here is an alternate deal" or after the riddles should have said "I haven't the rings to pay my end of the bargain, but I do have this bracelet of friends. If you allow me, I will key the charms to each of you and call you when I have collected the rings."

But that's water under the bridge.


So i don't know what to do. He now deals way more damage to enemies then the rest of the party and can one shot like all the monsters i send, and if i raise the bar for encounters they will just one shot the party.

You can do this in a few ways.

The Jerk Way: Have monsters with Str draining attacks target his character. Don't drain him below his original score +1 though, he should still get some benefit for his games. Or just have the wishes wear off over time (-1 per day/session).
The OOC Way: "Listen, your character did something selfish and therefore is now way ahead of the party's power curve. I'm going to have to scale you back somehow, because I can't balance encounters for the party as a whole because of the imbalance. What would you be willing to give up?" Suggest lowering the strength bonus (no lower than enough to grant +1 to the modifier) or other methods.
The Monty Haul Way: Give the other characters similarly useful benefits. The wizard gets a staff/wand that increases his caster level and save DCs as long as he wields it. The ranger gains a camouflage cloak that allows him to become invisible. Keep in mind that you will still have to adjust encounter difficulty. Providing your party with wealth beyond WBL should raise their effective character levels by 1 or 2.

[Lord of Shadows]

You can do this in a few ways.

The Jerk Way: Have monsters with Str draining attacks target his character. Don't drain him below his original score +1 though, he should still get some benefit for his games. Or just have the wishes wear off over time (-1 per day/session).
The OOC Way: "Listen, your character did something selfish and therefore is now way ahead of the party's power curve. I'm going to have to scale you back somehow, because I can't balance encounters for the party as a whole because of the imbalance. What would you be willing to give up?" Suggest lowering the strength bonus (no lower than enough to grant +1 to the modifier) or other methods.
The Monty Haul Way: Give the other characters similarly useful benefits. The wizard gets a staff/wand that increases his caster level and save DCs as long as he wields it. The ranger gains a camouflage cloak that allows him to become invisible. Keep in mind that you will still have to adjust encounter difficulty. Providing your party with wealth beyond WBL should raise their effective character levels by 1 or 2.


Hmmm.. one more way:

4. Since the spell Suggestion has a duration - 1 hour per level or until completed - then at some point the dragon is going to realize what happened and he will come after the offending, uppity Goliath Fighter who has insulted him (by beating him at his own game). If that particular dragon isn't still around (the OP did not mention the outcome of the encounter other than the Suggestion), then other dragons are sure to learn what happened and do the same. Life could become very interesting for a certain Goliath Fighter who thinks he outsmarted a single, lone riddle-dragon.

[John Longarrow]

Also the idea was that if they got something really nice from the wish like an item or just gold that after they were accosted by the large group of solders that they would lose said items or the ring itself, and in order to get it back they would have to somehow get it from the commanding officer(the ring would have been used before they would have a chance to get it back)

And also the dragon didn't suggest that the reward be more rings it was the player

Fine for the characters to suggest the reward.
What reason as DM did you have for the dragon to be sitting on extra rings of wish? If the dragon didn't have them to begin with, no suggestion spell would allow for them to magically appear.

[Lord of Shadows]

What reason as DM did you have for the dragon to be sitting on extra rings of wish? If the dragon didn't have them to begin with, no suggestion spell would allow for them to magically appear.

Yeah, that's kinda where everything went pear-shaped for the OP. Fortunately the Goliath only asked for Strength, which as others have said is equal to a belt/girdle or the Bull's Strength spell. The player could have really mucked things up, but I think in this case the situation is salvageable through follow up encounters and consequences. Imagine the player's surprise when in the next big city people come up to him left and right wanting to challenge his "riddler abilities". Heck, people might even nick-name him The Riddler.. Well, maybe not. LOL
.

[Phelix-Mu]

Alright, so this doesn't seem so much a problem as, let's say, an unforeseen complication. And that is basically every other day for the average DM; get used to players doing something you didn't expect.

Accordingly, I prefer to look at all of these unforeseen complications as opportunities in disguise. Here's what we learned this time:

1.) The goliath's player is both canny and an excellent role player. Well, that's a good thing. Good role players who can remain in-character while pursuing their best advantage and come out on top of the DM? Hehe, that's quite the score the OP has. The way to turn this to the DM's advantage is to take what was learned about this one player and use that player's skills to help the others learn more about the game and role playing. I'd set up some kind of scenario where the characters must cooperate to solve some out-of-combat conflict, but not allow everyone to just let the goliath player figure it out. Instead, the characters each need to do stuff, perhaps separately, and while the goliath player may make out-of-character suggestions, can't communicate with them in-game.

One of my go-to things is a natural disaster. Your characters are the right level, as well. Have them come across a settlement or group of people (nomadic caravan of halflings, circus troupe, or a bog standard village). During the role play and events as they interact with those people (among whom are some interesting and useful npcs...nice place to drop a romantic interest), signs of a coming storm occur. Or an earthquake. Or a blizzard. Something climate-appropriate. During the event, pandemonium. Remember, primitive communities don't understand these phenomena and don't have drills to prep for them; panic is the appropriate response for all but the smartest or wisest of the npcs. The pcs can try to keep calm during the event, but, ultimately, much of the place is devastated, the players are separated, and people all over the place need help.

So, the goliath needs to do some heavy lifting, and there is likely a spell or two the wizard can cast to help. But the main thing all of them need to do is some problem solving to save lives and some role play to keep people calm and persuade them to listen to the advice and accept help from the freakish outsiders (if normal racism/elitism/xenophobia are in play, as they likely are with such a group). The ranger gets to help later, helping find food and fresh water, and rolling Survival to come up with ways to provide for so many helpless people who have had all their stuff wrecked. Finally, they probably need to travel somewhere else or lead the survivors to another place to live or settle, or the pcs need to bring construction supplies and workers from a nearby town to help rebuild.

See? Used to be a problem, now it's an adventure hook!

2.) Combat imbalance: I advise having ranged threats the goliath can't just hack through. Invisible or stealth enemies are also good. Finally, a nice dungeon with traps and confined spaces, along with denizens that can exploit said advantages to do some hit and run. I don't advise the full Tucker's Kobolds, as that would likely be serious overkill in this instance. But a couple dozen goblins or kobolds with traps and knowledge of the terrain, able to fall back when things go south, stick to ranged combat, travel through constricted spaces to avoid the larger goliath. Yeah, there are a bunch of ways to force the group to cooperate, instead of just letting the goliath wade in with his plotslayer greatsword.

[JackQ]

I suggest a retro removal on the wish rings...

It turns out that the Copper dragon...being smarter than a lowly Goliath gave him illusionary wish rings or perhaps one ring of Bull's Strength and the rest are rings of delusion.

An illusion explains the sudden (and highly improbable) appearance of multiple rings with one wish.

Thematically the Copper dragon ends up tricking the character and he still get's a temporary ego boost.

If I was DMing I'd let the player continue to think he had enormous strength (just subtract damage) and gradually hint that he's weaker than he believes.

[Segev]

Ultimately, while the +5 to strength is potent, it's just damage. Yes, he can one-shot things. But honestly, he was going to be doing this eventually, anyway. It's the one thing Tier 3-4s tend to get really, really good at.

This is also the only real problem that exists right now: the Goliath is stronger than you anticipated and is causing you balance problems. The story, while nifty, is just how we got here. (And, honestly, is brilliant gameplay on the Goliath player's part.) Up side: he cannot get advantage from tomes or anything else to give him inherent bonuses to Str anymore. He's capped there, and only enhancement bonuses are likely to pile on any time soon.

So, how to address this problem? There have been some good suggestions. One thing to consider is a threat that is high hp/low output, or which relies on something like regeneration. Trolls can be one-shot all day long, but they'll keep getting back up without the wizard's fireball or acid arrow to keep them down.

Remember, too, that all this is is combat. Challenges outside of it will be very limited when it comes to ways he can use his monstrous new strength. Mix it up a bit, and make sure the others have a chance to shine. Introduce flying enemies, too; that will mean the Goliath at least needs caster help to get to them.


Finally, the dragon. I wouldn't go the grossly punitive route; the Goliath played by the dragon's rules and, while he did use magic to trick the dragon into agreeing to something to which the dragon might not have otherwise agreed, that, too, is playing by the "mischievous trickster's" rules.

I'd have the dragon be impressed. Maybe a little eager for a chance to one-up the Goliath, but mostly recognizing a worthy challenger. Have the dragon - not all the time, but periodically - show up and treat the Goliath like a (friendly) rival. It may not actually let the Goliath know another challenge is going on, either. Prank wars, mysteries, even racing the Goliath (and his party) to find out information that they're after, just to prove it can do it faster. Then offering to trade it for a rematch, or as a prize if they can beat the dragon again in a battle of wits.

Also, dragons like this are clever and smart. Yes, it just lost 7 rings of 1 wish each to this Goliath...but the Goliath is now a much more dangerous powerhouse of strength. Surely, the dragon has some plans in motion where so powerful a source of damage and muscular skill-checks could be useful. Have it arrange for the party to find these situations and take them up as quests. Get some "free" work out of them.

Heck, if the dragon is of the appropriate gender, this could have some potential for romance (or romantic comedy) shenanigans, too.

[Phelix-Mu]

Heck, if the dragon is of the appropriate gender, this could have some potential for romance (or romantic comedy) shenanigans, too.

Yay. Goliath half-dragon babies?! This campaign just got way better.:smallwink:

THat is actually something that I would have used in one of my campaigns.

Also, the idea of the dragon covertly grooming the goliath (and the rest of the party) as minions is a pretty interesting idea. Perhaps the OP should read about Xorvintaal, the Great Game, which was in either Monster Manual 4 or 5. I think it was 4.

[Adverb]

Strength is most effective at lower levels, so the good news is, this problem will become less severe as your group gains in levels.

[Trundlebug]

So he OHKO's some mooks and stuff. Keep the BBEG's away from him and it will sort itself out soon. Strong or not he's a +1 LA fighter. Even if he builds intelligently from here on in, still easily dealt with. It's all good just have creative encounters. That should be default.

Taking away the stuff after the fact, as the illusion and other suggestions, will be seen as blatant hamfisted fiat. I'm pretty sure the goliath player will see right through that if the opening post says anything.

[icefractal]

Definitely do not do any kind of "the wishes wear off / were an illusion" thing. That will rightly be seen as BS by the players. And it'd be unfair to boot - he faced actual consequences if he failed, so making the rewards fake - not cool. On the subject - what's with giving the party a "reward" you don't actually expect them to benefit from anyway? Just seems like a way to annoy people. :smallconfused:

Anyway, the good news is that this isn't a huge balance problem. Well, not with the Wizard anyway - once 4th level spells hit, "melee guy who kills things in one hit" is a good match with "wizard who disables lots of things at once" (and in a few more levels after that, the Goliath will be the one needing some DM help to keep up). The Ranger will probably need a boost though. I suggest reducing the Drow LA, and giving him some tailored items.

[Andezzar]

Or let him retrain as wildshape ranger.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Definitely do not do any kind of "the wishes wear off / were an illusion" thing. That will rightly be seen as BS by the players. And it'd be unfair to boot - he faced actual consequences if he failed, so making the rewards fake - not cool.
Very much this.

My suggestion? Treat the Goliath as though he gained a +1 LA template. That'll slow him down a bit while you wait for the Strength boost to become less of an issue. (And it soon will, don't worry). Drop some particularly nice stuff for the other players along the way, so they don't start to feel left behind.

[Alent]

You could always invoke the "Twisted wish" clause and have one or all of the STR increases be via Festering Anger.

Suddenly the entire quest, for him, becomes about restoring himself to normal when he realizes he's the incredible hulk and this will eventually kill him without help.

[Grim Portent]

I think you'd be best off just rolling with it. +5 strength is good but hardly the end of the world and you do have a chance to make the dragon a recurring NPC trickster playing pranks on the party or engaging in friendly contests with them.

[Mellack]

Yeah, that's kinda where everything went pear-shaped for the OP. Fortunately the Goliath only asked for Strength, which as others have said is equal to a belt/girdle or the Bull's Strength spell. The player could have really mucked things up, but I think in this case the situation is salvageable through follow up encounters and consequences. Imagine the player's surprise when in the next big city people come up to him left and right wanting to challenge his "riddler abilities". Heck, people might even nick-name him The Riddler.. Well, maybe not. LOL
.

Be very careful with this. Since the player seems to be very good at riddles, it would seem he would most often win these challenges. Since he would be betting in these challenges, as he has proven he would with the dragon, you may just end up making him richer/more powerful.

I also agree with others who have said do NOT take away his strength or make them illusions. He played fairly, with high risk/reward. The extra strength is not that big a deal, and will become less important over time. Let him enjoy a well played victory.

[Bluydee]

+1 to the copper dragon coming after him. Do it at a time where they are busy themselves and thus the only person to stand up at the time is the goliath.

[Lord of Shadows]

Be very careful with this. Since the player seems to be very good at riddles, it would seem he would most often win these challenges. Since he would be betting in these challenges, as he has proven he would with the dragon, you may just end up making him richer/more powerful.

I also agree with others who have said do NOT take away his strength or make them illusions. He played fairly, with high risk/reward. The extra strength is not that big a deal, and will become less important over time. Let him enjoy a well played victory.

True, there would be some who would want to place a bet on a riddle. But there would also be a fair number of people who would just want to try to beat the best for the sake of doing it, and bragging rights. And there would be those with nothing to "bet" that the Goliath would be interested in. There would also be some who would present the Goliath with riddles that would be nothing but gibberish, without a "correct" answer, thereby setting up this "master riddler" for defeat. There are many ways this can be used without making the PC any richer or more powerful, except perhaps in reputation, which has its own dangers.

This could even be a way to draw the party into a particular adventure the DM wanted them to complete. Or some ingenious BBEG (or copper dragon) could build or remodel a dungeon designed just for this riddle-solver. Think Tomb of Horrors crossed with the Netbook of Riddles, for instance. Perhaps someone with a freind/relative/ally being kept prisoner by a Sphinx seeks the Goliath's help in freeing them (or at least, that's what the party is told). There are all sorts of ways this can play out over the rest of the campaign.

Also, I would not pound the player with riddle after riddle... He might start getting annoyed as a player. But a difficult, well-though out encounter every so often would keep him on his toes, and he may start to think twice about being so good at riddles.
.

[Nibbens]

Dude, I don't know what anyone else here thinks, but you (as a DM) got off easy with him only getting a +5 bonus to strength! The alternatives could have been a heck of a lot worse. In truth +5 str isn't that bad, it's only an extra +2 to attack and +2 to damage. He let you off easy.
Continue as normal and allow him to enjoy his extra damage for as long as he can. In a couple of levels it will even out and not even matter! You're fine. :)

[The Oni]

What might be a better way to take advantage of the Goliath's sudden gain is to have word start spreading around that this "big, dumb, fighter out-riddled a riddle dragon," and just like in real life there are those who seek out the champions just to see if they can be defeated, have some "special" encounters of monsters/NPC's who hunt down this Goliath just to see if he is as good as he thinks he is. This could really put your Riddle-guy through the ringer if you do this a few times and keep using increasingly more difficult riddles. Heck, some NPC might even use a riddle with no answer, just to say they "stumped the one who cannot be stumped." If your player is as good at riddles as you say they are, the character could start getting quite the reputation and begin drawing attention. Just make sure not all of the attention is of the positive sort... <evil grin>
.

I agree with this as the best roleplay-centric solution. Give him the Young Gunfighter problem - suddenly anyone trying to make a name for himself is coming to see him. And they'll be more prepared than he is, because they've heard of him.

[Vizzerdrix]

Dude, I don't know what anyone else here thinks, but you (as a DM) got off easy with him only getting a +5 bonus to strength! The alternatives could have been a heck of a lot worse. In truth +5 str isn't that bad, it's only an extra +2 to attack and +2 to damage. He let you off easy.
Continue as normal and allow him to enjoy his extra damage for as long as he can. In a couple of levels it will even out and not even matter! You're fine. :)

I feel this needs to be said again. At least he didn't wish for a candle of Invocation.

[jiriku]

Lucky you to have such a clever player! A pity he didn't share the wishes out among the party. I'd also chime in that this is a call for you to grow your encounter design skills, not nerf or punish the player for his success.

Others have touched on stealth, archery, ambush, and traps.

Let me also add: low-level battlefield control spells are a great way to give powerful melee characters a hard time. You only need a 1st level wizard to cast grease, or a 1st level druid to cast entangle, and both can cast obscuring mist. 2nd level spells offer you gems like glitterdust, web, fog cloud, summon swarm, and soften earth and stone. You don't need high-level casters to toss some solid battlefield control into your fights.

Exploit mobility too. A couple of 3rd level varag scouts (varags are in MM4 p168, scouts in CAdv p10) have a 70-foot move, Spring Attack, and get skirmish damage with their scimitars or with short-range throwing weapons like hand axes. They're also super stealthy, and can't be tracked. Upgrade them to falchions instead of scimitars and use them as hit-and-run harassers, perhaps in support of a big monster like an owlbear. For an even tougher fight, back them up with a 3rd- or 4th-level hobgoblin druid who casts surefooted stride to give them full move speed in difficult terrain, and make sure that the encounter occurs on difficult terrain, like a slope of broken rock or an area of dense underbrush in the woods. They'll have great maneuverability while the players will move at half speed -- and that gets even worse when the druid starts casting battlefield control spells like entangle and soften earth and stone to help them out. Your players will be amazed at how such low-level opponents put up such a tough fight.

[Lord of Shadows]

Dude, I don't know what anyone else here thinks, but you (as a DM) got off easy with him only getting a +5 bonus to strength! The alternatives could have been a heck of a lot worse. In truth +5 str isn't that bad, it's only an extra +2 to attack and +2 to damage. He let you off easy.

Continue as normal and allow him to enjoy his extra damage for as long as he can. In a couple of levels it will even out and not even matter! You're fine. :)

Yea, I would agree. This DM now has ample opportunity for future plot lines involving one or more dragons, making the player deal with a famous (or infamous, depending) character, and multiple opportunities for adventures. Just don't forget the other two characters, though. If they start getting the feeling that they are just along for the ride they may react negatively.

Lots of good ideas are flowing here for how to integrate this into the campaign. This is more an opportunity than it is a problem.
.

[Firechanter]

A pity he didn't share the wishes out among the party.

That was also my initial reaction, but when you think about it, it was probably the best course of action. Remember that ability bonuses granted by Wish are of the Inherent type, and Inherent bonuses do not stack unless the Wishes are made in immediate succession. So if he had now given one or two Wishes to his mates, and kept maybe 3 for himself for a +3 Str bonus, he couldn't ever upgrade that to a +5 bonus at higher levels -- he'd have to pay for a full +5 Manual all over again.

Sure, when his party members eventually find out ("...Wait a minute... ever since you returned from the Riddle Contest, you have killed every enemy in one blow..."), they may be majorly pissed. And it would be only fair for him to compensate them somehow. Then there should be no hard feelings.

[jiriku]

Hehe I would have wished for stuff waaaay more broken than +5 Strength. The OP got off easy with this one. Reminds me of a game where we got a deck of many things and my wizard gained 5 levels.

[Lord of Shadows]

Sure, when his party members eventually find out ("...Wait a minute... ever since you returned from the Riddle Contest, you have killed every enemy in one blow..."), they may be majorly pissed. And it would be only fair for him to compensate them somehow. Then there should be no hard feelings.

They may also wonder why so many people are coming up to the Goliath challenging him to a Duel of Riddles. This is assuming, of course, that word gets out about it. This can happen many ways.. the Golaith bragging, the Dragon seeking the Goliath, and yes, the other party members noticing an increase in the Goliath's damage output since "that dragon thing."

I don't recall if the OP mentioned whether the others discussed with the Goliath what had happened with the dragon. As a player, I would be all over that, worried that something had happened to the Goliath, or that he was somehow "changed," which of course he is, just not in the way I would be worried about.
.

[Andezzar]

That was also my initial reaction, but when you think about it, it was probably the best course of action. Remember that ability bonuses granted by Wish are of the Inherent type, and Inherent bonuses do not stack unless the Wishes are made in immediate succession. So if he had now given one or two Wishes to his mates, and kept maybe 3 for himself for a +3 Str bonus, he couldn't ever upgrade that to a +5 bonus at higher levels -- he'd have to pay for a full +5 Manual all over again.You bring up an interesting point, can you even cast 5 wishes in immediate succession with magic rings? You can wear at most two of them. After yousing two you would have to exchange them for new ones. I doubt taking the rings off and poutting on new ones qualify as immediate succession.

[Firechanter]

It's not specified what "immediate succession" means exactly. I think the main point of this rule is to allow something to stack what normally doesn't stack, so replacing rings probably shouldn't be a showstopper. Otherwise, it's a matter of negotiating what kind of action pulling off one ring and putting on another is.
You could say that pulling off is a Swift Action, putting on another one is a Move Action, and activating the Wish is a Standard Action. Presto.

[Bronk]

It's not specified what "immediate succession" means exactly. I think the main point of this rule is to allow something to stack what normally doesn't stack, so replacing rings probably shouldn't be a showstopper. Otherwise, it's a matter of negotiating what kind of action pulling off one ring and putting on another is.
You could say that pulling off is a Swift Action, putting on another one is a Move Action, and activating the Wish is a Standard Action. Presto.

You probably wouldn't even have to take the old one off, since it isn't a magic item anymore. Put one on, wish, put another one on, wish, and so on. That would at least make it a move action, standard action combo, so you could make one wish per round.

[Firechanter]

Haha, good call! ^^

[Jeff the Green]

Wait, why are people praising this player for clever roleplaying and suggesting the character should keep the reward? That was a profoundly stupid plan that succeeded only because of a lucky natural 1. If he'd failed, he would have had a moment of chagrin before having his face go all Raiders of the Lost Ark from the dragon's breath weapon. Now that he's succeeded, he has maybe a few weeks to enjoy his +5 Strength before the (highly intelligent, highly charismatic, and highly scary) dragon finds him and makes him do his Nazi impression.

It doesn't matter that copper dragons are good—if you steal from them they will melt your face off.

[LordBlades]

Sure, when his party members eventually find out ("...Wait a minute... ever since you returned from the Riddle Contest, you have killed every enemy in one blow..."), they may be majorly pissed. And it would be only fair for him to compensate them somehow. Then there should be no hard feelings.

Majorly pissed for what? Not getting part of the rewards of a challenge they said they wanted no part in?

[facelessminion]

In the end, I don't see what the fuss is.

Mechanically, the Goliath only got +5 strength, Taken on its own, that is nice, but not terribly impressive or gamebreaking. Just lean the next few magic items in the direction of the other players, and it balances out.

Roleplaying wise... the guy just pissed off at least one ridiculously wealthy (though somewhat dumb) dragon, and may have temporarily boosted himself into something of a local legend. People are definitely going to be coming for him. The DRAGON is definitely coming for him, at some point; even if he somehow died, he obviously had the resources required to get himself resurrected.

And again, remember that in the end it was just 5 Strength. It's very nice, but in the end it is pretty much just a belt of +4 strength at this level.

Make the challenges notable, but by no means something to deliberately sink the party. Use this point to add a bit of interesting flavor to your game. He pulled one over on you, and could have done much worse with it.

[Firechanter]

Majorly pissed for what? Not getting part of the rewards of a challenge they said they wanted no part in?

Pissed for not getting their benefit of 1/3 Wish. If nothing else, they could have wished for 25K GP and split them threeways. Or they could have thought of something else that would have benefited the whole party. The Goliath paid his entry fee with party funds and never paid back.

[Jeff the Green]

Given the dragon's breed, it might consider enlisting the help of the wizard and ranger in getting revenge. That sort of trickery, turning of tables, and self-petard-hoisting is very copper dragon.

[Oddman80]

I don't see why anyone is troubled. Maybe the dm is pissed he was outsmarted by a player. But seriously, the player basically had in his possession rings with a combined value of about 194,000 gp. And he used all of it to gain something worth 25,000 gp. Now I get this is an inherent bonus and so it is more valuable than an enhancement bonus.... But strictly in terms of effect, it was an extremely mild wish.

I don't even get why the dragon would be coming after him. I thought the OP said they left in good cheer due to fighter giving the dragon an amazing feast. If fighter keeps tight lips, rumors don't spread. Dragon isn't going to go around broadcasting the embarrassment. To acknowledge it happened would add insult to injury. Retaliation would be an acknowledgment of weakness...

The only way the dragon comes after the fighter is if it's a festering obsession that he just can't control anymore.... But that would be like a year off or something... When the fighter has forgotten about it and doesn't see it coming (has stopped looking over his shoulder)

But seriously, he probably could have gotten a +5 to strength from a single wish. If OP Wants to be annoyed it should be that he squandered them on such minor wish.

[Andezzar]

I don't see why anyone is troubled. Maybe the dm is pissed he was outsmarted by a player. But seriously, the player basically had in his possession rings with a combined value of about 194,000 gp. And he used all of it to gain something worth 25,000 gp. Now I get this is an inherent bonus and so it is more valuable than an enhancement bonus.... But strictly in terms of effect, it was an extremely mild wish. Huh? A +5 Manual of Gainful Exercise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#manualofGainfulExercise) costs 137500 gp and can be sold for half.


I don't even get why the dragon would be coming after him. I thought the OP said they left in good cheer due to fighter giving the dragon an amazing feast. If fighter keeps tight lips, rumors don't spread. Dragon isn't going to go around broadcasting the embarrassment. To acknowledge it happened would add insult to injury. Retaliation would be an acknowledgment of weakness...

The only way the dragon comes after the fighter is if it's a festering obsession that he just can't control anymore.... But that would be like a year off or something... When the fighter has forgotten about it and doesn't see it coming (has stopped looking over his shoulder)I agree with those points


But seriously, he probably could have gotten a +5 to strength from a single wish. If OP Wants to be annoyed it should be that he squandered them on such minor wish.Not without an unsafe wish.

[Yahzi]

Dude, I don't know what anyone else here thinks, but you (as a DM) got off easy with him only getting a +5 bonus to strength! The alternatives could have been a heck of a lot worse.
Exactly what I was thinking.

Also, what Phi-Mu said: make adventures that don't revolve solely around smashing things.

Finally, casting Suggestion on a dragon is dangerous game. At some point that Dragon is going to repay him in kind - by casting a Suggestion on him. :smallbiggrin:

[Jeff the Green]

I don't even get why the dragon would be coming after him. I thought the OP said they left in good cheer due to fighter giving the dragon an amazing feast. If fighter keeps tight lips, rumors don't spread. Dragon isn't going to go around broadcasting the embarrassment. To acknowledge it happened would add insult to injury. Retaliation would be an acknowledgment of weakness...

The only way the dragon comes after the fighter is if it's a festering obsession that he just can't control anymore.... But that would be like a year off or something... When the fighter has forgotten about it and doesn't see it coming (has stopped looking over his shoulder)

Because dragons have an ego and anyone that wounds it, even in private, has to be punished. From a purely CG perspective (because that's copper dragons' alignment) casting mind-affecting spells for personal benefit is Not Cool. Also, it violates the sanctity of the Riddle Game to use mental control, and I don't see a copper dragon being okay with that.

Finally, who says that anyone needs to know that it was the dragon that killed him? Assuming no one else knows the story, it'd be trivial for the dragon to melt the goliath unseen while out in the wilderness. Copper dragons are the prankster illusionist dragons.

[Yahzi]

Finally, who says that anyone needs to know that it was the dragon that killed him?
Who says the dragon kills him? The golaith used a Suggestion spell to essentially rob and humiliate the dragon, so I would expect the dragon to repay him in kind.

[Oddman80]

Who says the dragon kills him? The golaith used a Suggestion spell to essentially rob and humiliate the dragon, so I would expect the dragon to repay him in kind.

People keep saying he used mental control to embarrass and rob the dragon. But that's bs too. The competition proposed one in the field the copper dragon excelled at. The DM had the list of riddles all ready to go. He planned ahead. He was ready. He was confident.... Just imagine how sure of himself that dragon would have been. As far as the suggest wish, honestly, it seems like the player cast it vs. the DM and not the dragon. The DM was the one who would worry about a lower lvl guy walking away with potentially 6 wishes. What would the copper dragon care about this (especially, if as was pointed out he inexplicably happened to have a stash of partially used wish rings just lying around). Think David walking up to Goliath and challenging him to an arm wrestling match for high stakes... CHALLENGE ACCEPTED B****!!!!!

No suggestion necessary.

Riddles, were this dragons' jam, yo. Would he be embarrassed that this puny mortal schooled him in his own game? Yeah, probably. But if he didn't face melt the guy instantly, due to the feast provided to him, what changes later, that would make the dragon go after him?

Still doesn't make sense to me. Suggestion wasn't used to help the fighter get away, an act of great diplomacy did. That doesn't disappear like an enchantment would. Only if the fighter stats bragging about it, then the tables change.... Then word gets back to dragon, and dragon can be pissed. But going after the fighter now, given the facts laid out by the DM, would be bs. It would be a ooc dm attack, not in ic dragon attack.

[Segev]

He only used suggestion to get the dragon to agree to the terms of an actually fair contest. He got a more-valuable-than-usual bet agreed to, but it was still a fair bet, and the contest was still one that Copper Dragons are known for initiating against others. It likely was an imminently reasonable suggestion, too: the dragon had no reason to believe it would lose a fair riddle contest. The Goliath surprised it, and, if they left on good terms, should more likely have impressed than angered it.

While he did convince the other players to let him effectively have the first ring, the other players refused any part in the contest. For good reason, if the post about "a lucky Nat 1" being all that stood between the Goliath and a face-melting. The Goliath took the risks; the rewards were his to reap. This isn't even a case of him choosing to take the risk without the other PCs having a chance; they had the chance and chose not to.

If the Goliath had died in this contest, would it be argued that it's unfair that the other two got off without dying, too? Of course not; they chose not to partake in the risk.

Now, it's reasonable to perhaps ask the Goliath to let the others have more loot than normal until they each have 1/3 a Wish in price, or to collect the resources to buy a wish the other two can use. But that's the absolute maximum a just assessment can demand.


As for the other PCs being passed, I suppose they COULD be, but it would be as reasonable as if they'd refused to put their own money up to buy a lottery ticket and then being upset the Barbarian spent the jackpot on himself when the ticket won. They didn't take part in the risk, would have been out nothing if it had failed, and thus have little business being mad about the reward not being shared. (Again, minus their share of that first ring's value.)

[Oddman80]

^ Amen!
As far as rewards moving forward, its reasonable for the DM to tailor loot to help the others catch up a bit, but he shouldn't withhold loot from goliath entirely. Gold shared equally amongst party, and wondrous items to benefit non-goliath players should be good for a level or two.