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kamikasei
2007-02-23, 08:42 PM
I've been giving some thought to a custom campaign setting for a home D&D game, and have a reasonable idea of how, in general, I want everything to fit together. I've got what I think are pretty solid and interesting explanations for things like elves, dwarves, orcs, humans, and so on; for the arrangements of the planes and the nature of magic. Where I'm stuck is with certain entities and backstories that I'd like to preserve but which seem to be at least partly setting-dependent.

The first issue is with entities like Lolth and Tiamat - I'd like to have these deities as part of my cosmology, but I don't really understand how local versions of an iconic deity are supposed to relate to the general archetype. Would the Lolth of my setting be connected to the Lolth of Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk in more than name? How would that work? I want to include these deities in the creation story, so having them as planar immigrants of some sort doesn't really work for me. What other options or perspectives are there?

The second issue is with mindflayers - specifically, with the gith. Even more specifically, it's with Gith herself. The mindflayers themselves I can explain easily enough as intruders from the Far Realm or another cosmology or something similar. However, I would like to include the story of the great mindflayer empire, their enslavement of the gith, the rebellion, the fall of the empire - all that (I see it as preferable to importing both flayers and gith post-rebellion from some other universe). How would that work? How does it work in other settings? Was there one Gith in one multiverse who incited the gith across all the multiverses to rebellion? Were the gith, the rebellion, the flayer empire, etc. all in one multiverse and exported to the others?

I suppose the basic question is: would I really be better off saying that the standard cosmology and the other campaign settings are completely incompatible with and unreachable from my own, and therefore mine only includes what I've specifically written into it, in the versions and with the history that I've decided?

Inyssius Tor
2007-02-23, 09:37 PM
As far as I know, rewriting anything that doesn't suit you and stealing anything that does is the standard arrangement.

Also, the non-setting-specific Lords of Madness has the illithids coming from a far-flung future in which they had won D&D; fleeing a "rocks fall, everyone dies," and enslaving the gith when they got here (in the distant past). Not that that's particularly relevant to anything.

Fhaolan
2007-02-23, 10:05 PM
You're going to hate me for this, but... It's up to you. :smallcool:

Basically, you can steal whatever you want. If you want your version of Lolth to be the exact same entity as the Forgotten Realms one, go ahead. Heck, Lolth is a wonderful example. The entity called Lolth has gone through so many revisions, retcons, and rewrites throughout the history of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting that no matter how you describe your version it will be inconsistant with several 'official' sourcebooks on the Forgoten Realms.

You don't need to have alternate Prime Material Planes. If you don't want to deal with Grayhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, Eberron, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Planescape, or whatever... those places just don't exist in your campaign. That's it. You're done.

In my campaign, I don't even have the Inner Elemental Planes, or Outer Planes that would be recognizable relative to the 'standard' D&D campaigns. My 'astral plane' equivalent is the Shadowlands, the plane where the dead travel to their final resting place. My 'ethereal plane' equivalent is the Mirrorlands, where magical goblin-creatures and dopplegangers live, stealing children from the mortal world in order to propigate their species.

My mindflayers are in a constant war with beholders in the superplane of the Outer Dark. Creatures of madness and true chaos, in a plane that even the Gods refuse to admit exists.

So on, so forth. Blah, blah, blah. It all boils down to you only being bound by the strictures you wish to be bound by. Your choice. :smallsmile:

kamikasei
2007-02-23, 10:16 PM
I should explain a little better, I guess. I realize that I can just say "this is how it is and damn the other settings". However, I'd like to leave things a little more open at the edges than that. In particular, if I'm being honest, I'd like to have some way to hook my cosmology into Planescape, at however many removes. If players could eventually find their way to Sigil I would consider that a Good Thing.

I guess what I'm really looking to know is how other settings handle this sort of thing. How are the Lolths of Greyhawk, Faerun, Krynn related? The Tiamats? How does the Gith rebellion fit into the history of Toril and that of Eberron? What do a githzerai from one setting and a githyanki from the other have to say to one another if they meet in the Cage?

Counterpower
2007-02-23, 10:28 PM
How are they related? Lolth is, indeed, a good example. It's assumed in all settings I've seen her in that she used to be a member of the Seldarine, but was cast out for some reason. Basically, it seems to me that they have the same history and abilities, changing place names as appropriate. I have only really played Eberron and Forgotten Realms though.

The Gith rebellion? Honestly, I can't answer that question. Great......... you've given me another thing to think about in the Eberron campaign I'm DMing. But that also illustrates a good point I'd like to make: how that rebellion fits into your campaign is, ultimately, yours to decide. How does Eberron handle it? In the Eberron books I've read, it doesn't. Thus, each Eberron DM, if that is important information, will decide that on their own, and most likely each one will handle it differently.

Fhaolan
2007-02-23, 10:42 PM
Ah! Sorry, I misunderstood the question.

This is something that is usually glossed over (and glossed over VERY HARD) in the 'official' game settings. And, to my knowledge, is one of the reasons WotC dropped most of the official game settings when moving to 3rd edition.

Back in 2nd edition, this issue was rammed into at full speed with Tiamat and Lolth. Tiamat was a powerful dragon-creature in Greyhawk, a demon-queen in Forgotten Realms, and a full-fledged diety in Dragonlance. Lolth had similar problems. This was simply explained as the campaigns having no connection to each other... Until Spell Jammer, Ravenloft, and Planescape came along. Campaigns *based* on the concept of all other campaigns being interconnected. Then there was Dark Sun, a campaign that had to be completely separate from the others, or it wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.

To my knowledge, the 'solution' of the problem was to say that these entities were actually as powerful as the most powerful version, and the lesser versions were either the entity not showing their full power at the time, or were powered-down 'avatars' instead of the full entity. Then, they said that certain campaign settings (Dark Sun) were locked away by some uber-powerful creatures so you couldn't travel from, or to, it.

With regards to planar races like the Githyanki, they just did a 'Oh, but they're *really*....' something or other, and declared them to be consistant across campaigns from that point on.

kamikasei
2007-02-23, 10:56 PM
Right so. It'll be a "rocks fall, the universe springs into being" sort of thing.

"Your people were once enslaved by mind flayers, you say? You're... 'githzerai'? Remarkable! We jithzerai were also enslaved by flayers... we rebelled and toppled their empire, you see. What? So did you? What a remarkable coincidence..."

As to such deities as Lolth, I guess I can say they're somehow so super-archetypal that completely separate creations all give rise to beings who converge on the same underlying god-image, the same way distinct settings can each have distinct but essentially identical Planes of Fire.

EvilElitest
2007-02-23, 11:21 PM
Already done. I did the whole thing with my champain. Here is the deal. I wanted to create a champain settings that i could use with about two dozen people (4 D&D groups) for about 10 years without running out of options. And i made it when i was 12, damn i am good. It has been working sences no problem, though not 10 years. I went a bit to far, but it is great. I compinded everything i could. All the champain settings i have accense to, FR, Ebberon, Ravenloft, Midnight, Dragonlance, Planescape, Scarred lands, WoW, Everquest, LOTR (games and book), Elder Scrolls, Harry potter (just kidding), Eragon, Zelda, Greyhawk (what little i know), Bad Axe books, White Wolf Books, Mongoose books (damn annoying to do), Arana evolved, The Shannara series, The belgarade books, most real life mytholigies, every WOTC book i have, Guildwars, Dark Sun, the other champain settings in the FR world who name i can't spell (the native american world, the arab world, the asian world, Orental adventures, Rokuga settings (or however you spell it) 70% if the things i find in the homebrew section of this website, Winie the Pooh, King Arther myths, some second edition stuff i find, a few other book who's names i can't recall, Earthsong, and a uniqe mix of my own elements. Dam i am good (and egotistic). yes i have most of real life gods and all D&D gos in my world, and all hte planes, races, and classes. And if i find some new, i jsut put it in without thought, because the world is so damn big the players will not notice. Oh and i put ewoks into my world, just so my PC can kill them in exotic ways.
The most importan rule is, when you find something new, think quickly on your feet. The world is so huge i can fit anything i want into it.

The deal with Tiamant is, i make each version of her a different creature. Lolth is slightly different, I just use i mix of the Greyhawk and FR drow panthoens, which is the most powerful of the three drow panthones (the others are from different source books). It is really easy if you think about like this, the gods are muti world, they are view slightly different each time.
What i did with the gith races (who are my third favorte race to play by the way) i made the Great Mind Flayer Empire of Thoughts a vast mutli universe power, that streached the limits of most worlds. The gith uprising complely destroyed it, wipping out 97% of the mindflayer race and driving their empire apart. The gith's empire is very vast and spilt up into many vassal cities, with a huge capatial in most sections of the Astrel plane. All of these vassal githyanki nation serve their lich queen however, but they hunt the flayer who are upon most of the worlds.

Everything you jsut read is the work of maddness and can not be held against me in any way.
from,
EE

Sardia
2007-02-24, 12:17 AM
[QUOTE=kamikasei;2083076] I guess what I'm really looking to know is how other settings handle this sort of thing. [QUOTE]

My take on it is, never explain fully, and never bother explaining the nature of the diety/whatevers, just display what they do. So the players will never understand the true nature of the divine beings...so much the better. Gives you as GM lots of flexibility, and keeps the clerics on their toes wondering.
You get no sure theological answers, but that's hardly required for a practicing faith.

EvilElitest
2007-02-24, 12:38 AM
My take on it is, never explain fully, and never bother explaining the nature of the diety/whatevers, just display what they do. So the players will never understand the true nature of the divine beings...so much the better. Gives you as GM lots of flexibility, and keeps the clerics on their toes wondering.
You get no sure theological answers, but that's hardly required for a practicing faith.[/QUOTE]

In my world, gods mind are ununderstandable by mortal standards. This is because they are made up of a mix of all of their worshipers beliefs. If their worshippers beliefs differ to much, then the god will change or split.
from,
EE

pyroguy_93
2007-02-24, 08:18 AM
You have to remember you are runnuing the game, and if your PC's are dedicated enough, they wont question the existence of Loth or Tiamat

EvilElitest
2007-02-24, 11:26 AM
You have to remember you are runnuing the game, and if your PC's are dedicated enough, they wont question the existence of Loth or Tiamat

That is the easy and basic way, but i think he wants to have multiple worlds here. Am i right?
from,
EE

Matthew
2007-02-24, 01:04 PM
Basically, Fhaolan has the right of it. If you want to keep these things interconnected, you can. If you want to keep them separate, you can.

There is no problem bringing Lloth or Tiamat into your game; whatever manifestation you eventually go with can simply be an aspect of their power (or not, as you prefer).

Illithids and Githyanki are slightly more problematic, but as you have realised, you can have mutliple versions of the same events without problem. On the other hand, you might have one version of events that is contradicted by another, hell, that's how real world history often is as well.

EvilElitest
2007-02-24, 10:34 PM
Is your question answered?
from,
EE

kamikasei
2007-02-24, 11:09 PM
Is your question answered?

Yes, though the answer appears to be "nope, no way to do that simply and consistently".

EvilElitest
2007-02-24, 11:25 PM
Yes, though the answer appears to be "nope, no way to do that simply and consistently".

Hey i pulled it off fine. Its worked for three years with 6 groups without a problem.
from,
EE

Beleriphon
2007-02-25, 03:03 AM
Illithids and Githyanki are slightly more problematic, but as you have realised, you can have mutliple versions of the same events without problem. On the other hand, you might have one version of events that is contradicted by another, hell, that's how real world history often is as well.

Not as such. The basic history always works. Enslaved pre-Gith rebel against their mind flayer masters. The only time you get a problem is if you want the game to be linked to every other setting. FR is particularly bad for this since at one point it was intrinsicly linked to Greyhawk. Eberron avoid the whole problem by just having its own radically different cosmology.

The Dirge
2007-02-25, 03:16 AM
The illithid had a universe sized empire. Just have your setting on world thats a different planet to forgotten realms but in the same galaxy.

kamikasei
2007-02-25, 01:52 PM
The illithid had a universe sized empire. Just have your setting on world thats a different planet to forgotten realms but in the same galaxy.

This would be explicitly a whole different universe, with a different version of the Great Wheel, different origins for the races, gods, planes etc. So that wouldn't work, unfortunately.

And EvilElitest: the grab-bag approach kind of goes against the point in my making this setting in the first place, which is to have a coherent multiverse with solid explanations for as much as can be managed, rather than - say - Forgotten Realms.

I guess I'll go with having a gith-like race who aren't actually gith. Give them an almost identical history and have them fulfill almost exactly the same role, but just change some names and handwave any parallel-plane encounters with "real" gith.

EvilElitest
2007-02-25, 03:08 PM
This would be explicitly a whole different universe, with a different version of the Great Wheel, different origins for the races, gods, planes etc. So that wouldn't work, unfortunately.

And EvilElitest: the grab-bag approach kind of goes against the point in my making this setting in the first place, which is to have a coherent multiverse with solid explanations for as much as can be managed, rather than - say - Forgotten Realms.

I guess I'll go with having a gith-like race who aren't actually gith. Give them an almost identical history and have them fulfill almost exactly the same role, but just change some names and handwave any parallel-plane encounters with "real" gith.

No you can have multiple cosmologies. The great wheel is just one of the many cosmologies in the world. Have the mindflayer empire streach to many different cosmologies. They came from the future, and so it makes sense they could take over so much.
as for races and classes, FR has different races than standard D&D.
from,
EE

CASTLEMIKE
2007-03-11, 03:53 PM
Keep it simple you can always make it more complex later. All you need now is a name for the Over Power and some of the more important Gods.

Consider making it an almost closed plane overseen by an Over Power like AO in the FRCS and Divine Invitation Only with the power to back it up inviting and allowing in some of the the Babylonians Incarnations like Enlil and some of the Pantheon to travel to the Toril crystal sphere via an artifact Enki's Galley of the Gods while he remained behind. These were the Mulhorandi and Untheric Pantheons.

If your party really wants a God or two for the world you can introduce them as Demi-Powers just establishing a base of worshippers or less well known Lesser Powers.

I like the planescape Guide to Hell with the creation mythos but a lot of people didn't and still don't. As far as I'm concerned the nonstatted but LN Lady of Pain in Sigil is the third leg of the creation mythos and the Great Wheel cosmology but many would disagree and think she should be Neutral.

illathid
2007-03-12, 12:20 AM
Well, here is a link to a history of the planes ripvanwormer put together on the WOTC boards.

History of the Lower Planes (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=786923)

If you want to stick with the great wheel cosmology, I would just say that your campaign is on a separate crystal sphere on the prime material plane. Lolth, Sekolah and the other more iconic deities could then be singular entities that receive veneration from multiple spheres.

The one problem with this approach is that the FR great wheel deviates from the standard one. However, it wouldn't be to hard to make the FR unique planes only attached its crystal sphere.

Midnight Lurker
2007-03-12, 01:06 AM
There is also a theory that the people of Toril perceive the multiverse wrongly, and that they're really interacting with the same Great Wheel as are Oerthlings.

As it stands, the Plane of Shadow is set up as the way to get from one cosmological system to another. It might be that the gods and paragons (archfiends, super celestials, etcetera) are extensions into the cosmologies of even higher entities, and events in each realm tend to echo one another because of that.

As a side note, Keith Baker has suggested (in the WotC forums) that in his personal Eberron campaign, daelkyr actually turned gith into mind flayers after destroying their homeworld.

illathid
2007-03-12, 02:55 AM
If I remember correctly, all of the crystal spheres are connected through the deep ethereal. Couldn't one move to different cosmological systems using that?

Clementx
2007-03-12, 11:45 AM
The general issue is that there is just too much planar baggage. You have inner and outer planes, you have the Far Planes, you have the Deep Ethereal, you have planets in the sky, Material Planes in the Plane of Shadow, creatures from archean-times-that-might-as-well-be-different-planets of all of them, neogi from space, and mild flayers from space and the future. Then you have the Material Plane- MMs full of creatures, gods, and empires that couldn't fit on a gas giant.

So when you start, you need to start trimming, and answer basic questions that don't get talked about in the PHB. Like is your Material Plane a planet? Does it float in space, leaving other planets to be visited like our universe? That can be your Mind Flayer empire. Or there could be no other planets. Maybe the Plane of Shadow is the only way to find other Material Planes, and that is where Mind Flayers and other abberations come from. You don't need both, and chances are your campaign can be better-expanded by traveling one avenue extensively rather than mixing and matching. If you like Grell, have them come from another planet instead of the PoS.

Once you get the basic setup of the Material Plane down, you should shape it up. Is your campaign on a continent that is far removed from everything else, and all the default DnD stuff exists there, but only gets fleshed out and defined for parts that have made it to your continent or get dragged by PCs? That is the general way I do it, since I don't want to spend time writing up elven empires to round out the world when I have no intention of ever directing the game there.

Then you start with the Planes. Mix and match what you like, and what fits your game. Mine focuses on the Plane of Shadow, the Negative Energy Plane, and an indeterminate Abyss-type place. I don't feel the need to have separate realities for Neutral Evil, Lawful Evil, and Chaotic Evil. After all, the Abyss is infinite. You might want The Hells of Baator to be so huge that they dwarf the Material, making them functionally infinite to mortals and your game. Either way, you ensure that you never run out of universe to continue introducing more and more adventures that don't hinge on the previous actions of the PCs. I admit the existence of the Elemental Planes, and even redefined them to suit my tastes, but my players will never see them. It just doesn't fit in a game about demons and the dead.

Now, you have to deal with overlap. The Wheel has its nice parts, like the River Styx flowing through the lower planes. I have one that goes from layer to layer of my singular Abyss. Then there are parts that are redundant, like the planes for each step around the alignment system, one intermediate for each, and a neutral plane. I drop the Law-vs-Chaos dimension of the universe. Archeron is in a very lawful spot of my Abyss, should I ever feel the need for a humongous prison. The Quantum Universe is the DM"s best friend. I make everything very mysterious and unknown. My players feel like explorers, and I don't have to flesh out my equivalent to any given outer plane until the story turns that direction. Or if you think it is better, you can define and specify and construct, so your players have a map and well-defined planar adversaries/empires.

silentknight
2007-03-13, 06:34 PM
As a player, I take what the DM says as what is true. If you, as a DM, say that the gods, the planes, the gith, or whatever are THIS WAY, then that's the way it is. I only assume that Forgotten Realms stuff is true when playing in that world. I don't care if the FR Lolth is the same as any other until the DM brings it up. Same with any other game or system.


As a DM, if the players aren't high enough level to achieve planar travel, it doesn't matter if the other cosmologies don't mesh with yours. If it is easier to not address the tricky inter-game-system issues, then ignore them until you can figure how you want to handle them.