Is Black Sand really that good? (3.5)

[Chester]

I need to choose a new Necromancy spell for my Dread Necro's advance learning (level 8).

I could go the obvious Shivering Touch, but I keep reading that Black Sand is a great spell. I just don't see why?

I mean, I guess I cast it in my area and keep gaining 1d4 HP from Tomb-Tainted Soul, but I'm not necessarily worried about that.

Cast it while enemies are entangled by Evard's Black Tentacles? Well, our Ranger can pick them off with his bow more effectively....

I mean, it's a cool spell, and I think I'm missing something. Convince me why I should either a) take it, or b) take something else. I'm open to suggestions.

[Segev]

The argument goes that, because anything that dies due to Black Sand crumbles into more of it, and the Effect of the spell is only the sand that's conjured, if you kill even one creature with the Black Sand spell, the sand into which they crumble is real and distinct from the sand created by the spell. Therefore, since only the Effect of a spell goes away when its duration passes (and not any side-effects, such as healing, damage, or the transformation of a creature into a corpse), only the sand conjured by the spell goes away when the spell ends. This means the sand left behind by a creature slain by the stuff remains.

Cast the spell once to kill something, and now you have permanent Black Sand. Put some in your boots. Put more in the boots of your undead minions. You now have 1d4 healing per round...permanently.

[Chester]

The argument goes that, because anything that dies due to Black Sand crumbles into more of it, and the Effect of the spell is only the sand that's conjured, if you kill even one creature with the Black Sand spell, the sand into which they crumble is real and distinct from the sand created by the spell. Therefore, since only the Effect of a spell goes away when its duration passes (and not any side-effects, such as healing, damage, or the transformation of a creature into a corpse), only the sand conjured by the spell goes away when the spell ends. This means the sand left behind by a creature slain by the stuff remains.

Cast the spell once to kill something, and now you have permanent Black Sand. Put some in your boots. Put more in the boots of your undead minions. You now have 1d4 healing per round...permanently.

That makes sense . . . now, if a creature damaged by black sand dies within the area of effect (say, from a fatal shot from an arrow), does that creature still crumble to sand? In other words, I deal 2 damage with black sand, Ranger finishes him off with a hell of a lot of arrow damage, do I get my sand?

[Segev]

You'd have to look up the substance in Sandstorm and see if it converts corpses to Black Sand, or only those the Sand itself kills.

[Mcdt2]

That makes sense . . . now, if a creature damaged by black sand dies within the area of effect (say, from a fatal shot from an arrow), does that creature still crumble to sand? In other words, I deal 2 damage with black sand, Ranger finishes him off with a hell of a lot of arrow damage, do I get my sand?

The Exact text is "Creatures that come in contact with the sand take 1d4 points of damage per round from negative energy (no save).
Those reduced to 0 hit points crumble into black sand themselves."

I think that the intent here was that people killed by the Black Sand turn into more of the stuff, but I don't know where the RAW would fall. I imagine they didn't feel the need to elaborate, as they probably intended for crumbled creatures to vanish at the end of the duration as well. Of course, even if it all vanishes at the end of the spell, it's relevant because it determines whether or not raise dead and the like are enough to revive them or if one needs higher level magic. Furthermore, if sand-ified creature remains do stick around, is the sand sufficient for resurrection, or does one need true resurrection?

[Rijan_Sai]

The Exact text is "Creatures that come in contact with the sand take 1d4 points of damage per round from negative energy (no save).
Those reduced to 0 hit points crumble into black sand themselves."

I think that the intent here was that people killed by the Black Sand turn into more of the stuff, but I don't know where the RAW would fall. I imagine they didn't feel the need to elaborate, as they probably intended for crumbled creatures to vanish at the end of the duration as well. Of course, even if it all vanishes at the end of the spell, it's relevant because it determines whether or not raise dead and the like are enough to revive them or if one needs higher level magic. Furthermore, if sand-ified creature remains do stick around, is the sand sufficient for resurrection, or does one need true resurrection?

RAI may be that only creatures killed by the sand become more of it, but the RAW states that (to quote your quote) "Those reduced to 0 hit points crumble into black sand themselves." It would seem then that any source that reduces the HP to 0 will cause sandification. (Which kind of makes sense to me, as otherwise it would seem that any source of external damage while in the area of BS would prevent it...I could poke myself with my dagger, doing 1 point of damage, and so long as I remain in the area of the BS, I would be protected from sandification, even if the rest of the damage came from the BS itself...
A little pedantic, but that's RAW for you! :smallamused:)

[nedz]

Of course: if they have 1 HP, and you do them 2 HP of damage, ..., then they miss being on 0 HP ?

[subject42]

Of course: if they have 1 HP, and you do them 2 HP of damage, ..., then they miss being on 0 HP ?

General rules imply that being reduced to -1 hp also reduces you to 0 hp. If that's not the case, the normal language used is "exactly 0" hp. (See staggered for an example.)

[Kazudo]

It's possible that it's black sand, not black sand that they turn into.

Which is to say that they just turn into sand which happens to be black as opposed to black sand, the spell material.

[Segev]

It's possible that it's black sand, not black sand that they turn into.

Which is to say that they just turn into sand which happens to be black as opposed to black sand, the spell material.

The environmental hazard of Black Sand spells it out pretty clearly, IIRC, and the spell draws ALL of its mechanics on what the summoned sand actually does from those rules.

[Necroticplague]

It's possible that it's black sand, not black sand that they turn into.

Which is to say that they just turn into sand which happens to be black as opposed to black sand, the spell material.

You're right, they don't turn into the spell. They turn into the substance that's statted as an environmental hazard elsewhere in the same book. It does the same thing as the spell, though.

[Kazudo]

Then in that case it should be fairly clear what happens and yes, that means that black sand really is pretty good.

[Coidzor]

The equivalent of fast healing for all of your undead is fairly nifty. But if you've any likelihood of encountering black sand without needing the spell, then with appropriate inventory management, the attractiveness of the spell will diminish aside from denying certain enemies easy resurrection.

[Shalist]

Black sands + tarrasque with 1 hp = ? (It regenerates "if it fails a save against disintegrate, death affect, etc.," but since there's no saving throw :smallcool: )

Also, frenzied berserkers?

[Esgath]

Tarrasque: No, her hitpoints will never be reduced, she only takes nonlethal damage.
Frenzied Berserker: Yes.

[Jeff the Green]

The thing is that for a DN all it really does is save time between encounters; you have Charnel Touch. It's a useful trick for a wizard, archivist, or cleric, but for a DN I prefer using Advanced Learning on a spell that will increase my capabilities more, like shivering touch or kelgore's grave mist.

[Shalist]

Tarrasque: No, her hitpoints will never be reduced, she only takes nonlethal damage.

Alrighty, so you're strolling along this desert of black sand, when suddenly you see this tarrasque that juuuust drowned (reducing it to 0 HP without needing to damage it, or requiring any fortitude saves)...

edit:


It is possible to drown in substances other than water, such as sand, quicksand, fine dust, and silos full of grain

Hmm...

Black sands doesn't actually say it kills the creature, just that their body crumbles into black sands, so it doesn't necessarily contradict the whole "can only kill with wish / miracle" thing...

I believe the only reasonable interpretation of these rules is as follows:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dmag_gallery/100230.jpg

[otakumick]

Alrighty, so you're strolling along this desert of black sand, when suddenly you see this tarrasque that juuuust drowned (reducing it to 0 HP without needing to damage it, or requiring any fortitude saves)...

edit:



Hmm...

Black sands doesn't actually say it kills the creature, just that their body crumbles into black sands, so it doesn't necessarily contradict the whole "can only kill with wish / miracle" thing...

I believe the only reasonable interpretation of these rules is as follows:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dmag_gallery/100230.jpg

Dustform Tarrasque made of black sand?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Dustform Tarrasque made of black sand?

I like to think that the Dustform Tarrasque also counts as an Incorporeal Swarm...

I know what I'm throwing at my players soon!

[Vizzerdrix]

The thing is that for a DN all it really does is save time between encounters; you have Charnel Touch. It's a useful trick for a wizard, archivist, or cleric, but for a DN I prefer using Advanced Learning on a spell that will increase my capabilities more, like shivering touch or kelgore's grave mist.

This, I have to agree with. When I played a DN I only cast Black Sand once on a few chickens. After that I had enough to keep making the stuff for whatever plans I could think up. Honestly, if any spell has it as a material component you can start harvesting the stuff without having to take the spell at all.

[Blackhawk748]

I used Black Sand a few times as a DN, i started putting it in Flour Bags and i used it as a thrown weapon. Though i would say its a bit better for an Uttercold Assault Necromancer, as a DN id take Kelgores Gravemist and cast it with Fell Animate to get.......... FREE ZOMBIES!

[Bonzai]

In the OP's case he should go with Shivering touch and just buy a scroll for a one time casting of Black Sand. Pretty much all you will need.

[Vizzerdrix]

Shivering Touch is such a poorly worded mess of a spell that it should be avoided.

[137beth]

Shivering Touch is such a poorly worded mess of a spell that it should be avoided.

Not really. Black Sand is a poorly worded mess. Shivering touch is very clear, it's just also really powerful.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Not really. Black Sand is a poorly worded mess. Shivering touch is very clear, it's just also really powerful.

Well, powerful but it isn't like it is the only low level really powerful spell.

Grease comes to mind, as does protection from evil.

[Jeff the Green]

Not really. Black Sand is a poorly worded mess. Shivering touch is very clear, it's just also really powerful.

No, it's poorly worded. It does ability damage, but has a duration. That's like making fireball's duration 1/min per level and not saying what happens after the first detonation. Ability damage is like damage; it doesn't go away once the effect causing it expires.

I think they meant it to be a ray of clumsiness that could reduce your Dexterity to 0, but it's absolutely not clear from the text.

[Vizzerdrix]

No, it's poorly worded. It does ability damage, but has a duration. That's like making fireball's duration 1/min per level and not saying what happens after the first detonation. Ability damage is like damage; it doesn't go away once the effect causing it expires.

I think they meant it to be a ray of clumsiness that could reduce your Dexterity to 0, but it's absolutely not clear from the text.

I can see your way of reading it 100%, but at the same time I always thought that you could hold the spell for the time limit until you discharged it. And i'm sure several other people will chime in with their own interpretation of the spell too.

[Jeff the Green]

I can see your way of reading it 100%, but at the same time I always thought that you could hold the spell for the time limit until you discharged it. And i'm sure several other people will chime in with their own interpretation of the spell too.

That's the case with any touch spell:

In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipate

Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

It doesn't say that you can make multiple touch attacks and it doesn't specifically say that you can only hold the charge for that long, so the first section rules.

[Chester]

In the OP's case he should go with Shivering touch and just buy a scroll for a one time casting of Black Sand. Pretty much all you will need.

Yeah, that's what I went with. With the debate surrounding Black Sand, the group kind of felt that a permanent black sand was not the intention.

I'm OK with that, though. I'll just abuse Shivering Touch! :smalltongue:

[Seto]

RAI may be that only creatures killed by the sand become more of it, but the RAW states that (to quote your quote) "Those reduced to 0 hit points crumble into black sand themselves." It would seem then that any source that reduces the HP to 0 will cause sandification. (Which kind of makes sense to me, as otherwise it would seem that any source of external damage while in the area of BS would prevent it...I could poke myself with my dagger, doing 1 point of damage, and so long as I remain in the area of the BS, I would be protected from sandification, even if the rest of the damage came from the BS itself...
A little pedantic, but that's RAW for you! :smallamused:)

Well, if you really want to take the literal meaning here, it's pretty clear to me that, once you've been touched by Black Sand, there's no going back. There's no indication of time or space. Even if a dragon reduces you to 0 HP twelve years later, you still crumble into black sand.
(Yeah, RAW are pretty silly and should not be at thing)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Well, if you really want to take the literal meaning here, it's pretty clear to me that, once you've been touched by Black Sand, there's no going back. There's no indication of time or space. Even if a dragon reduces you to 0 HP twelve years later, you still crumble into black sand.
(Yeah, RAW are pretty silly and should not be at thing)

This would make a great campaign setting/adventure. Let's say that your soul also turns into black sand and everyone has been touched by it because of some long ago BBEG.

So now you have a world that has proof of an afterlife, however once they die they know they won't get there, they will just be black sand.

The social aspects of this could be amazing. Knowing that the afterlife, good and bad, is real but you will never reach it... How messed up of a world would that be? Pretty dark setting most likely. Would the deities abandon this world? Why pray to a deity that can't help you? Why not be as evil as possible if your only punishment is the same as everyone else's, black sand.

So parties are set out to find a cure all the time. They never find it. However the PC's goals can lead them to a cure, but it won't be easy.

I kinda want to make this as a giant adventure package...

Edit: totally making this a world where major deities have abandon it as helpless and unusable. Make it somewhat like dark sun.

Psionics, ToB, MoI, ToM based setting... Hmmm

[Necroticplague]

This would make a great campaign setting/adventure. Let's say that your soul also turns into black sand and everyone has been touched by it because of some long ago BBEG.

So now you have a world that has proof of an afterlife, however once they die they know they won't get there, they will just be black sand.

The social aspects of this could be amazing. Knowing that the afterlife, good and bad, is real but you will never reach it... How messed up of a world would that be? Pretty dark setting most likely. Would the deities abandon this world? Why pray to a deity that can't help you? Why not be as evil as possible if your only punishment is the same as everyone else's, black sand.

Well, assuming this is the Prime, the gods would have good reason to panick. Their domains are built up of the spirits of their followers. No spirits, their domains remain static. And most other planes have too many outsiders or elementals to be useful for these purposes.

Because people would hold on to the hope that they could. I mean, deities in dnd have helped their followers in the past, so there's reason to believe something this expansive would cause some reaction.

Well, given the existence of evil when they know their gonna get cast in the pit of fire later, I don't think divine punishment is really that big a factor in people's behavior. And the fact their are reasons other than to avoid divine punishment to be good, like the upholding of social contract (ex: follow a societies rules so that that society will protect me).

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Well, assuming this is the Prime, the gods would have good reason to panick. Their domains are built up of the spirits of their followers. No spirits, their domains remain static. And most other planes have too many outsiders or elementals to be useful for these purposes.

Because people would hold on to the hope that they could. I mean, deities in dnd have helped their followers in the past, so there's reason to believe something this expansive would cause some reaction.

Well, given the existence of evil when they know their gonna get cast in the pit of fire later, I don't think divine punishment is really that big a factor in people's behavior. And the fact their are reasons other than to avoid divine punishment to be good, like the upholding of social contract (ex: follow a societies rules so that that society will protect me).

Perhaps the deities would become vestiges, or move on to a new multiverese to preserve themselves? Some of the minor ones may try to stick around and fix the problem to become more powerful but... Yeah nothing for them to do.

No. The souls are black sand, there would be no threat of burning in hell/abyss. There would be nothing to send to the abyss or hell. The soul and body are destroyed. Even outsiders wouldn't reincarnate, because black sand is just black sand not a body or soul.

Sure the stuff heals undead already created but it would stop more being created (at least in the campaign setting).

Good and Evil would neither have a reward or punishment at the end of their lives. Children born could be said to have contracted this black sand through the parents.

No creature from other planes would want to come to the material plane, black sand might spread to them. Teleportation doesn't work because the astral plane, the plane of existence doesn't want that stuff. No calling effects and alternate teleportation would be dangerous (plane of shadow or some undead plane) might allow it... But for the most part the material plane would be blocked off from the rest of the multiverse...

It would be a lot like Darksun but with different problems.

There could be groups of Evil and Good working together to find a cure, because everyone wants to stop this crazy stuff. Hell, perhaps alignment is gone due to being shut off from the other planes and gods, perhaps everyone is Unaligned?

The potential for a campaign would be limitless >:D

This could be a multiverse plague, lasting for however long you want the time line to be :).

Edit: Summoning could still work, the stuff summoned is either not real or not going back to which it came.

Edit:

I could totally see a BBEG pulling something off like this in order to destroy a Tippy-Verse setting causing a post apocalypse type setting... Hmmm