Barb/Fighter

[gr8artist]

Why is it that the Barbarian is considered the better damage dealer? A fighter could have the same build, with many more feats (weapon specialization) and the Barbarian is only getting 3-9 extra damage when he rages. The difference between them seems minor, though the fighter always ends up in a lower tier, despite being more customizable.

[TheIronGolem]

Fighters get more feats, but most of the feats they get aren't worth a whole lot due to the way feat chains are broken out. Barbarians get access to more tricks like Pounce and Whirling Frenzy that act as force-multipliers for their overall damage potential.

[Telonius]

Focus and Specialization really don't add too much to a build. If we're confined to just Core, by level 20, a Fighter might have +2 to attack (from Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus) and +4 to damage (from Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization); and you've spent 4 of your 11 bonus feats. A Barbarian11 with Greater Rage gets (effectively) +3 to attack and +4 (or so, depending on where the strength score breaks for a two-handed weapon) damage just from the strength increase when raging.

Barbarian also gets a better Will save when raging, a better hit die, much better skills, and little perks (like Improved Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense) that the Core fighter just can't get. The skill difference is the most crucial one, IMO; that can let a Barbarian occasionally solve an encounter that combat wouldn't solve.

If you move out of Core, a lot of options open up for Barbarian - things like Lion Totem for Pounce, feats and prestige classes that require Rage, that kind of thing. Fighter Feats proliferate, but (other than Dungeon Crasher, which takes up one or two feats; and Shock Trooper, which Barbarian will also aim for) there isn't all that much that would clearly put Fighter ahead. The versatility really doesn't change. There aren't any Fighter feats that give the Fighter the ability to solve more encounters where "hit it with a pointy stick" isn't going to cut it. It is true that Fighter can use his feats for maneuvers from ToB (that really do help versatility). But if ToB is in play then Fighter has already been overshadowed in its intended role.

[Vogonjeltz]

Why is it that the Barbarian is considered the better damage dealer?

You said it yourself, there's an undervaluation of the Fighter specific (or Fighter-realistic) feats, and an overvaluation of Barbarian rage/skill points.

Weapon Focus/GWF + Weapon Specialization/GWS + Melee Weapon Mastery is +4 hit/+6 damage. That exceeds the attack benefits of Mighty Rage (20 levels of Barbarian required) by level 12. As another comparison, the fighter is getting the attack benefits of rage all the time at a level when the Barbarian is only netting +3 hit/+3 damage, but also sucking up a penalty to AC, an advantage of +1 hit/+3 damage for the Fighter when the Barbarian actually has rage active, which isn't an all day thing.

This requires 5 of 7 bonus feats, which means the Fighter still has 2 bonus feats to outshine the Barbarian.
The Barbarian has +10 feet of movement, trap sense, uncanny dodge, and damage reduction 2/-.

So I suppose you have to ask which you would prefer: +10 feet movement + bonus vs traps + can't be flanked by non-rogues + minor DR or +1 to hit/+3 damage + 2 feats. Which could include Brutal Strike or Flay.

Pounce isn't worth anything at all until there are multiple attacks to be made. So while it might shine at 20th level, at 1st-5th it's dead weight and from 6th-10th it's only so-so.

I'd also disagree with irongolem's assertion that feat chains are a problem. There are plenty of great feats that have no other requirements (or, alternatively, feats for which the chain start is inherently useful, Combat Reflexes for example).

All things being equal, the Fighter will always be doing more damage than the Barbarian.

[Svata]

All things being equal, the Fighter will always be doing more damage than the Barbarian.


Pounce allows you to gain the benefit of Leap Attack on a full attack. Barbarians get it easily. Fighters not so much. Even in levels 6-10 it doubles your damage output any and every round that you can charge.

[Teron]

Pounce isn't worth anything at all until there are multiple attacks to be made. So while it might shine at 20th level, at 1st-5th it's dead weight and from 6th-10th it's only so-so.
You know, if you didn't do things like ignore the mention of Whirling Frenzy in the same sentence, people might actually take you seriously.

[Vogonjeltz]

Pounce allows you to gain the benefit of Leap Attack on a full attack. Barbarians get it easily. Fighters not so much. Even in levels 6-10 it doubles your damage output any and every round that you can charge.

If the enemies aren't deliberately underperforming the characters should get at most 1 charge opportunity per encounter (if they win initiative).

*whirling frenzy imposes a -2 to hit, which negates the bonus from +4 str, this just skews things further for the Fighter.

[Karnith]

Weapon Focus/GWF + Weapon Specialization/GWS + Melee Weapon Mastery is +4 hit/+6 damage. That exceeds the attack benefits of Mighty Rage (20 levels of Barbarian required) by level 12.
... No, it doesn't? Mighty Rage is +8 Str (and +8 Con, but let's stick with just the Str effect); that's +4/+6 if you're using a weapon two-handed (and you really should be). Are you thinking of Greater Rage, which is at Barbarian 11 and gives +6 Str/Con?

Pounce isn't worth anything at all until there are multiple attacks to be made. So while it might shine at 20th level, at 1st-5th it's dead weight and from 6th-10th it's only so-so.
Pounce is really, really good at any time you can make multiple attacks, which can start as (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) early as level 1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#twoWeaponFighting), and are pretty easy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm) to acquire later (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#speed). Fighter having very bad access to Pounce (or some other method of moving and attacking) is a pretty big problem with the class.

I'd also disagree with irongolem's assertion that feat chains are a problem. There are plenty of great feats that have no other requirements (or, alternatively, feats for which the chain start is inherently useful, Combat Reflexes for example).
And those feats can be taken by anyone for minimal investment. The Fighter can get more of them, sure, but very few of the "entry-level" feats are synergistic with feats outside of its chain (and which frequently do not scale well at high levels, because they are accessible at low levels).

EDIT:

If the enemies aren't deliberately underperforming the characters should get at most 1 charge opportunity per encounter (if they win initiative).

*whirling frenzy imposes a -2 to hit, which negates the bonus from +4 str, this just skews things further for the Fighter.
Whirling Frenzy gives you an extra attack, which, when combined with Pounce, is vastly better than a small bonus to hit. This is often the difference between getting in some damage on an enemy during the first round and killing it in the first round.

[Svata]

If the enemies aren't deliberately underperforming the characters should get at most 1 charge opportunity per encounter (if they win initiative).

*whirling frenzy imposes a -2 to hit, which negates the bonus from +4 str, this just skews things further for the Fighter.

If there are multiple enemies, you should be able to charge from one to another. Also, a if -2 to hit makes a significant difference in your ability to reliably hit enemies past level 2, you're likely doing something wrong.

[Vogonjeltz]

... No, it doesn't? Mighty Rage is +8 Str (and +8 Con, but let's stick with just the Str effect); that's +4/+6 if you're using a weapon two-handed (and you really should be). Are you thinking of Greater Rage, which is at Barbarian 11 and gives +6 Str/Con?

I think I might have been, as the Fighter has mighty rage equivalent bonuses by level 12.


Pounce is really, really good at any time you can make multiple attacks, which can start as (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) early as level 1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#twoWeaponFighting), and are pretty easy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm) to acquire later (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#speed). Fighter having very bad access to Pounce (or some other method of moving and attacking) is a pretty big problem with the class.

And those feats can be taken by anyone for minimal investment. The Fighter can get more of them, sure, but very few of the "entry-level" feats are synergistic with feats outside of its chain (and which frequently do not scale well at high levels, because they are accessible at low levels).

Pounce is only useful off a charge, which is only happening off a clear line with no rough terrain. I suppose some DM could just gift the players with only encountering enemies in wide open rooms with no furniture...

[Karnith]

Pounce is only useful off a charge, which is only happening off a clear line with no rough terrain. I suppose some DM could just gift the players with only encountering enemies in wide open rooms with no furniture...
Leap Attack and the skill tricks Twisted Charge and Nimble Charge are staples of charge-based builds (and are all achievable circa level 6). Charging is still not terribly difficult to shut down, but it's more useful than standing still and full attacking.

[heavyfuel]

Something that hasn't been touched yet is the fact that the Fighter is Tier 5 and Barbarian is Tier 4 doesn't really make the Fighter a worse class and it's all theoretical.

Any Fighter can dip Barb to get Pounce and Rage, but a Barb can't dip Fighter to get Weapon Mastery, Zhentarim or Dungeoncrasher.

Somehow, the Barb is worse at intimidating. The Fighter can get Zhentarim Soldiers substitution levels and Imperious Command to Cower-lock anyone that isn't outright immune to fear. A large (or powerful build) fighter ALSO gets Dungeoncrasher that can be used with Knockback to get Dungeoncrasher damage to every attack (instead of a standard action).

I know that specific builds don't have tiers, but it's pretty well accepted that DC and Zhentarim put the Fighter in Tier 4, the same as the Barbarian. Overall, both stand toe-to-toe in combat, with the Fighter being weaker but more versatile... And unless you want bring the uber-charger in, it's just a matter of preference, but then you might as well invite the d2 crusader.

[Oddman80]

Leap Attack and the skill tricks Twisted Charge and Nimble Charge are staples of charge-based builds (and are all achievable circa level 6). Charging is still not terribly difficult to shut down, but it's more useful than standing still and full attacking.

Not to mention a pretty cheap pair of rock boots to ignore difficult terrain. My barb has a pair of "Steadfast Rock Boots of Sprinting" using the multiple different ability rules from DMG. In case he losses initiative, and a guy charges him.... He gets to intercept the charge with an attack that deals x2 damage... What's that? Oh, that's right, thanks to wolf totem barb at level 2, he also has easy access to knockdown feat. So whenever anyone charges me, it ends with them being smashed, tripped and stomped on for good measure.

What's that? You just saw what happened to your friend and now you are running away? +30 ft speed (140 ft of movement on a charge or 120 ft with whirling frenzy) from the "of sprinting". Leap in the air, and shock trooper his A** for nearly 400 damage at level 6 - thanks to pounce whirling frenzy, and my little friend, the +1 Valorous heavy flail.

Looks like your squishy parts have some sight seeing to do today.

[Juntao112]

Somehow, the Barb is worse at intimidating. The Fighter can get Zhentarim Soldiers substitution levels and Imperious Command to Cower-lock anyone that isn't outright immune to fear.

Instantaneous Rage (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/instantaneous-rage--1670/) + Intimidating Rage (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/intimidating-rage--1674/) + Imperious Command


I think I might have been, as the Fighter has mighty rage equivalent bonuses by level 12.


To how many weapons?

[heavyfuel]

Instantaneous Rage (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/instantaneous-rage--1670/) + Intimidating Rage (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/intimidating-rage--1674/) + Imperious Command

This only make the foe cower for 1 round. Unlike the fighter that can keep the guy cowering for as long as he wants considering Intimidate is so easy to optimize

[Juntao112]

Or you could just kill him.

[heavyfuel]

Or you could just kill him.

You can do that too. Because you can make them cower forever just by spending your swift actions, you can kill them more quickly because they're taking a -2 to AC as well losing their Dex bonus! Your Rogue will also thank you because Cowering doesn't make targets flat-footed, just denies Dex bonus. Which means any attack by the Rogue will be a Sneak Attack

[Juntao112]

I think you kill them more quickly when you hit them for a ton of damage in one round.

[heavyfuel]

I think you kill them more quickly when you hit them for a ton of damage in one round.

Being able to Power Attack them for more damage due to his lowered AC doesn't count?

[Juntao112]

At which point the barbarian is doing as well as, or better than, you.

[Lans]

You know, if you didn't do things like ignore the mention of Whirling Frenzy in the same sentence, people might actually take you seriously.
Whirling frenzy doesn't need a full attack to get the extra hit in, so pounce is still worthless in this regard. Actually how its worded you could probably drink a potion and get an extra hit in.

[Teron]

There's a general rule that making multiple attacks requires a full attack action, and Whirling Frenzy gives no indication of being an exception.


Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

Source: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm

[eggynack]

You said it yourself, there's an undervaluation of the Fighter specific (or Fighter-realistic) feats, and an overvaluation of Barbarian rage/skill points.
That's not an undervaluation. It's a fair valuation. Weapon focus/specialization/whatever are terrible feats, and barbarians have even better access to improved trip than fighters do. It's also notable that charging grants access to shock trooper, which is a staple of high damage builds. Not fighter specific fighter feats are reasonable though, which is why folks tend to dip for two levels.

[Grod_The_Giant]

There's a general rule that making multiple attacks requires a full attack action, and Whirling Frenzy gives no indication of being an exception.
Pounce (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce)does, though.

[Urpriest]

This only make the foe cower for 1 round. Unlike the fighter that can keep the guy cowering for as long as he wants considering Intimidate is so easy to optimize

The Barbarian can do it off-turn, though, interrupting enemy attacks.

[Karnith]

That's not an undervaluation. It's a fair valuation. Weapon focus/specialization/whatever are terrible feats, and barbarians have even better access to improved trip than fighters do. It's also notable that charging grants access to shock trooper, which is a staple of high damage builds. Not fighter specific fighter feats are reasonable though, which is why folks tend to dip for two levels.
What are the Fighter-specific feats (i.e. the ones that actually require Fighter levels, ignoring Warblade for the moment)? I know about the Weapon Focus line, but are there even other ones to talk about?

I guess that some of the Fighter ACFs that replace feats (e.g. in Dungeonscape, Complete Champion, or PHBII) count, though they aren't technically feats and most of them are bad.

Pounce (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce)does, though.
Pounce lets you make a full attack after charging, yes, but Lans was arguing that you don't need to perform a full attack to get the extra attack from Whirling Frenzy.

[eggynack]

What are the Fighter-specific feats (i.e. the ones that actually require Fighter levels, ignoring Warblade for the moment)? I know about the Weapon Focus line, but are there even other ones to talk about?

I'm not sure at all. I think those are the meat of it though, and what I was referring to. I suppose there's a remote possibility that there's some cool fighter only feat that isn't horribly burdened with prerequisites. I would think that that's the sort of thing I would have heard mention of in the past, however.

[Lans]

Thanks for the bit about extra attacks, I see the requirement for a full attack in nearly every example of bonus attacks I didn't know there was a general rule on it

A non ACF fighter might be able to deal more damage than a non ACF barbarian, but it is going to be lacking in skill points and durability as a result, and pounce and whirling frenzy outstrip any fighter ACFs in damage except maybe optimized dungeon crasher in the right circumstances.