4.0, Does someone know something I don't?

[Scalenex]

D&D 4.0 gets brought up non-chalantly a lot. Usually with a desired changed but sometimes with implied knowledge of what's there. Is it on the near horizon or not? I hope not. 2nd edition lasted for about ten years before it got updated. Then 3.0 gave way to 3.5. I hope we can get our money's worth out 3.5 for a few more years at least. The fact that editions seem to be getting closer together strikes me as an underhanded marketing ploy.

[TheOOB]

As far as I know there is no planned release date for 4th edition D&D, not to say it's not going to happen, but wizards hasn't said exactally when. Chances are 4e D&D won't come out until they run out of things people will by for 3.5

As far as I can tell, we're looking at between 4 and 7 years until the next edition of D&D, based on previous trends. It was about 12 years between AD&D and AD&D 2nd, and about 11 years between AD&D 2nd and D&D 3rd, with D&D 3.5 coming out about 3 years after that. Remember this is all speculation based on past trends and not the words of WotC.

[Aximili]

I really don't believe 4th edition is as close as some people think, if they're even planning it already (and I'm not saying they're not). I haven't seen any sign of it except for the eventual comments droped inside a post, which might be no more than rumors.

However, may I say, D&D is in dire need of a major clean up. Unfortunately, we all know that all the balance will go down the drain again as soon as those complements start comingo out.

(Not that don't like these complements. They're what kept me going so far.)

[ishi]

I've never heard anything official regarding a 4th edition; I assume that when someone says something about "4th Edition," they're merely stating what they hope/expect to see in the yet undetermined next form of the game.

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

when 3.5 was released WotC specifically stated that they were not half way to 4.0 or anything like that, and that there will not be another addition in the forseeable future. The reason they did 3.5 was that after things had been published and they began to get comments, WotC saw that there were things that just didn't work and a revision was needed.

[Ted_Stryker]

A discussion on this topic from another forum I frequent:

http://forum.criticalfumble.net/showthread.php?t=1932

Probably still at least a few years off from 4th ed., but it might be closer than you think.

[Ramza00]

Its called hopes and dreams. People hope they will fix everything in 4.0 and thus they want it soon. Of course they are likely to make as many messes in 4.0 as they did in 3.x

[Fhaolan]

4th edition will be more of an economic decision on behalf of Hasbro/WotC than a 'do we need to clean up the rules'. When the sales of D&D 3.5 products drop below a certain level, the work on 4th edition will go into high gear.

So, if you really want to keep 4th edition from happening, buy every 3.5 books, suppliment, and vaguely related product from WotC, preferably multiple copies, and constantly submit as much 3.5-based things as you can so they don't run out of stuff for them to make money off of.

Afterall, they're a business. They have to make business decisions. If 3.5 stops making sufficient money to justify the product line, the correct business decision is to create a new product line to replace it. Publishing costs, warehousing of product, and distribution costs mean there is a minimum amount you need to sell every day to justify the existance of a product line. Keeping an old product line going simply because a few die-hards can't let go is no way to make a profit, and therefore no way to run a business.

EDIT: Just as a note, I don't play 3.5 and have never bought a 3.5 book. I'm still back on 3.0. I honestly don't care if the publish 4th edition. I may buy into it, I may not. It makes no real difference to me. I haven't bought into 3.5 simply because of economics. I am in two relatively large playing groups, and many of the players make minimum wage. They can't afford to replace their existing books, and they don't want charity, so we all as a group decided to not upgrade.

[TheOOB]

We'll probally know well ahead of time when D&D 4e is being worked on. I belive DnD 3e took about 3 years, and WotC will make sure we have plenty of time to save that 100+ bucks for the new core rulebooks.

Thats still a ways down the line though.

[Cybren]

There's on average about 10 years between one edition and the next it seems. But I don't know if they're going to go from 3rd or 3.5, so it could be in three years, or six.

[clarkvalentine]

I'm guessing no announcement before 2008 at the earliest.

[Cobra]

I hope we can get our money's worth out 3.5 for a few more years at least. The fact that editions seem to be getting closer together strikes me as an underhanded marketing ploy.This kinda attitude comes up a lot, and it annoys me every time. First, you've already gotten great value out of your books. I'm gonna guess you spent at most, a few hundred bucks on your books, probably less. Now divide that amount by the number of hours you've spent playing DnD. I'm pretty sure most people's dollar per hour rate is quite low. Much lower than what you pay for a movie or most any other form of modern entertainment.

Also: another edition in does not force you to upgrade. Many people are still playing 3.0, and still having fun at it. Holdouts aren't even cut out of future supplements, since its usually not that hard to convert modules and supplements to older rule sets.

[ken-do-nim]

I'm guessing no announcement before 2008 at the earliest.

I would be shocked to my very core if 4e doesn't come out in summer 2008.

Just yesterday I read that Mattel was on the rise and Hasbro was on the decline. Hasbro needs d&d 4e. And if it ends most of the class balance debates, I'll be quite glad for it.

My gaming group probably wouldn't switch to it right away, but any new campaign I ran I'd seriously consider doing it for. As it is, I want to run a campaign of 1e modules that I absolutely love converted. It makes no difference to me what game system I convert them to; it's the stories & settings I love.

[MrNexx]

Just yesterday I read that Mattel was on the rise and Hasbro was on the decline. Hasbro needs d&d 4e.

Anyone own enough Hasbro stock to know how big of a piece of the pie WotC actually is within the Big H?

[Swordguy]

Anyone own enough Hasbro stock to know how big of a piece of the pie WotC actually is within the Big H?

Short answer: not much. Depending on whatever new WotC card game that's been released, it's between 8-15% of the total sales at the high end. Nice extra stuff for Hasbro, but not company-breaking.

Bottom line is that Hasbro has lots of income from varied sources. WotC's just the one we happen to care about.

[MrNexx]

Didn't think it was a lot; too big of a drain, and D&D gets flushed or sold, not revitalized.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Knowing and working closely with someone who games with WotC execs (being ex-WotC himself), my info is that there is no 4th Ed on the way - yet.
Of course, there will be one at some point, but there are no plans as such.

[Fax Celestis]

Didn't think it was a lot; too big of a drain, and D&D gets flushed or sold, not revitalized.

They won't flush it, they'll sell it, potentially to White Wolf, who has shown interest in the D&D franchise by purchasing the rights to Ravenloft.

[Matthew]

Didn't Wizards buy the rights to Ravenloft back recently?

[Fax Celestis]

Didn't Wizards buy the rights to Ravenloft back recently?

...and then never did anything with it and sold it to White Wolf (http://www.white-wolf.com/ravenloft/).

[MrNexx]

Another thought... assuming Swordguy's numbers are right (no offense to you, Swordguy, but you are "some guy on the internet" at this point), what percentage of that 8-15% is D&D? 20% 50% 80% Since nearly half is dependent upon how well the card market is doing, that would seem to put D&D on the low end of WotC's profitability scale.

[Fax Celestis]

Another thought... assuming Swordguy's numbers are right (no offense to you, Swordguy, but you are "some guy on the internet" at this point), what percentage of that 8-15% is D&D? 20% 50% 80% Since nearly half is dependent upon how well the card market is doing, that would seem to put D&D on the low end of WotC's profitability scale.

I don't know raw numbers, but according to the sheer quantity of gaming materials that Hasbro makes, I'd say D&D is about 20% of that 8-15%.

[Stevenson]

Eh. Don't really care. Mainly because if 4.0 does come out, chances are my group will keep on plugging with 3.5, maybe just buying some 4.0 supplements. Because honestly, I don't foresee big changes between 3.5 and 4.0. Fighters won't suddenly become far, far superior. Their won't be ten new base classes that totally eliminate the old. I suspect maybe some tweaks, a few new mechanics, maybe even a reputation mechanic a la Star Wars.

[Fax Celestis]

Their won't be ten new base classes that totally eliminate the old.

Actually, I expect exactly that.

[PaleAngel]

I would be shocked to my very core if 4e doesn't come out in summer 2008.

Just yesterday I read that Mattel was on the rise and Hasbro was on the decline. Hasbro needs d&d 4e. And if it ends most of the class balance debates, I'll be quite glad for it.


I'm not terribly sure where you received your information, but according to the federally filed annual earnings report, Hasbro closed 2006 with a record profit, having 6 consecutive years of income growth.

http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=HAS&script=411&layout=-6&item_id=961153

Hasbro reports all earnings company wide and does not provide specific breakdowns for their different brand names. All they state is that their WotC brand is performing "very strongly."

[MrNexx]

Hasbro reports all earnings company wide and does not provide specific breakdowns for their different brand names. All they state is that their WotC brand is performing "very strongly."

Which is why I was curious for someone who owned stock in the company... the stockholders reports are usually more detailed.

[Phoenix Talion]

*PLEASE* no... I'm still accumulating 3.5 stuff, and I just finished retraining myself from 1st ed AD&D to 3.5.

EDIT: O/T: Hello, fellow snotling!

[MrNexx]

*PLEASE* no... I'm still accumulating 3.5 stuff, and I just finished retraining myself from 1st ed AD&D to 3.5.

EDIT: O/T: Hello, fellow snotling!

Hey , PT.

[CharPixie]

I remember WotC having a more detailed breakdown; at least, somewhat more detailed. Corporate politics?

[Noneoyabizzness]

...and then never did anything with it and sold it to White Wolf (http://www.white-wolf.com/ravenloft/).

except for the fact it was reverted back to wotc in 2006 and wotc redid expedition to castle ravenloft later that year.

http://www.white-wolf.com/ravenloft/index.php?articleid=276
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/953937200

[Matthew]

...and then never did anything with it and sold it to White Wolf (http://www.white-wolf.com/ravenloft/).

Uh, Fax, all I could find on that Web Site was the assertion that Wizards and White Wolf: Arthaus had reached an agreement to continue selling old stock. As far as I can see, Wizards currently own the Ravenloft brand, they just aren't doing anything with it (aside from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft). The news was pretty old, though. Who owns Ravenloft now?

[Edit]Beaten to the punch.

[EvilElitest]

Wait, how did WOTC publish expetion to castle ravenloft?
from,
EE

[Noneoyabizzness]

they owned the rights to do so, thus they done did it

[Aximili]

Because honestly, I don't foresee big changes between 3.5 and 4.0.
Actually, I foresee just that.
3.5 uses exactly the same system as 3.0, with significant changes only in a few mechanics and classes (without ever changing the idea of whatever it changed mechanically).

When they change to 4.0, I expect it to be much more like the change from 2nd to 3rd. Classes will leave, classes will come, and the system should be remarkably diferent.
The conversions necessary to use 4.0 material in a 3.5 game will be certainly more extensive than the conversions you need from 3.0 to 3.5, and you'll probably need 4.0's core rulebooks for that.

[Matthew]

Nah, the difference between 2.x and 3.x is not very great. If it follows the 2.x to 3.x transition model, the Core Books will simply adapt material from ToB and ToM. I'm not saying it will, but really there are no grounds for imagining it will be a very different game, other than speculation about the SRD.

[Fax Celestis]

Nah, the difference between 2.x and 3.x is not very great. If it follows the 2.x to 3.x transition model, the Core Books will simply adapt material from ToB and ToM. I'm not saying it will, but really there are no grounds for imagining it will be a very different game, other than speculation about the SRD.

I'd certainly like to see ToB material be core.

[Were-Sandwich]

and psionics.

[Fax Celestis]

and psionics.

Entirely granted. However, as alternate magic systems go, psionics will probably remain an add-on.

ToB, as a martial magic system (and something that doesn't really replace wizards) may have a chance to become core, though.

[Aximili]

ToB, as a martial magic system (and something that doesn't really replace wizards) may have a chance to become core, though.
Oh boy... Would I love to see that.
Seriously, if it's to turn ToB into core material, I'd accept 4.0 even this year. And I'd convert everything with a smile on my face.