Tiers of e6

[ddude987]

Hi Playgrounders!

So I love e6. There are also a lot of people on here who seem to love e6. I was wondering, when playing e6, including the custom capstone feats, if the tiers are different in any way? Also general e6 discussion is welcome here.

Lastly, any love for e8? Find it better or worse than e6? Reasons, experiences, discussions?

[heavyfuel]

I'm DMing my first e6 campaign now, and I've also played in one once before and overall, I really do like e6. Sure, I sometimes miss beating creatures 8 times my size to a pulp and killing whole armies all by myself, but these are thing that get boring pretty quickly and that's the main reason I dislike rocket-tag high level play.

As for your question: It's no surprise that Tier 1s aren't as world breaking as their 20 levels counterparts, but a lv6 Wizard will still kick the lv6 Fighter in the butt. The reason for this is that the Fighter still lacks the versatility and utility a Wizard or Cleric presents as well as their raw power. With so many feats any arcane caster can load up on Metamagic feats and then start picking Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic to apply many of them for free while the Cleric can get Extra Turning loads of times and use DMM to also use metamagic for free. So while the Fighter is maybe dishing out 3 attacks per turn (if the wizard was kind enough to Haste him), the caster is throwing Quickened Twined Reach Chained Acid Fell Drain Invisible Shocking Grasp and dealing 4 negative levels + spell damage to up to 7 guys per turn (or 2 negative levels to 14 guys), all while maintaining their flexibility out of combat.

Regarding e8, I played it once (never DMed) and I have to say I didn't really like it. While Tier 1s still dominate in e6, the gap has been somewhat closed. E8 defeats this almost completely! Casters now have 4th level spells which is the breaking point that even guys that don't play Batman Wizards will be dominating each and every encounter with plenty of spell slots and spells that will make mundanes cry (even more than usual). E8 also mean that 3/4 BAB classes such as the Rogue will get 2 attacks per turn and lose only 2 BAB in comparison to a Full BAB class, making full BAB classes pretty useless. All in all, I dislike e8 and much prefer e6 over it. Hell, I prefer regular high magic up to level 20 games than e8, especially if the DM enforces tiers somewhat (aka "no classes above tier 3") to make sure all players are on the same level.

[ddude987]

Hmm okay interesting. That makes sense. As a general question, how fast do you like leveling up in e6 or how fast do you like to level up?

[vhfforever]

The previous posters have it. You can't really break the world in as many ways, but the possibility is still there for a few classes.

[heavyfuel]

Hmm okay interesting. That makes sense. As a general question, how fast do you like leveling up in e6 or how fast do you like to level up?

I don't really distribute XP, I just say after I think enough experience has been gained "Ok, everyone leveled up!". This campaign I'm DMing right now started at lv 1 but I ended up regretting it. Because of that, I made the players reach lv 3 ASAP... Afterwards, I slowed them down a bit, maybe a bit too much for levels 4 and 5, but for lv6 and the feats thereafter I think I reached a sweet spot.

Basically, every 12 encounters I judge CR appropriate for them, they get a Feat. Note that these are "encounters", not "combat". If the managed to convince the Wizard in the tower to help them out on their quest, yeah, that counts as one, maybe even two encounters. A trapped door I may consider as 1/4 of an encounter. This very much resembles distributing XP, but because the players are oblivious to it, they don't "go hunting" to get those last encounters they need to get a Feat. I also find this method much more simple, albeit more biased.

While I don't mind a slower level up for my characters, if you're the DM, try reading your players... If they are complaining they don't have enough feats to get the build they want the way they want, maybe speed up the process a bit. If they are forgetting to use their feats, that means they haven't had the time to get used to having it, so turn it down a notch.

[heavyfuel]

Adding to my previous post, you should know that there are two major ways of playing e6. Quoting straight from the E6 Sourcebook:

You could structure two campaigns the same way in terms of encounters: The players speak with a 6th-level cleric, who implores them to do battle with a wyvern living in the nearby hills while he takes the pass beneath the wyvern's lair to a town in need of his healing magic.

Under my approach, the cleric is described as a Very Important NPC. He might be Raulim, wandering mystic, servant of Fiutiel, the Angel of Virtue. The towns the players are helping are made up of 1st-level commoners and a few 1st-level experts and warriors. The head of the local militia is a 3rd-level warrior (he's been around a bit).

Under the other approach, the cleric is Raulim, the town cleric. He hasn't travelled much and although he's quite skilled as a cleric, his life is just as local as the peasants in his flock. If he's important to the story, it's because the PCs are familiar with him and have seen him before. In this case, the town probably has quite a few levelled characters; maybe the head of the town guard is a 6th level fighter, and many of the townsfolk are 3rd level commoners.

Approach 1 - This implies a slower level up speed. If a guy can become "Aedan, champion of the City of Jerdum, Protector of the weak and Slayer of Giants" after a few weeks, something is clearly wrong.

Approach 2 - The one I'm currently using (and the one used in the campaign I played). Yeah, after a few weeks of things trying to kill you, and you surviving, you can become a good warrior, hell, you're probably a very good warrior. But you're not the best... Far from it. That orc that has the title of "Scrumm, Bringer of Chaos and Blighter of Lands" won't just be a lv6 guy, he's probably lv6 AND has like 40+ feats. Not to mention his private army of death composed of a lot of lv2 characters, some lv3 or 4. His generals are lv6 with 5~10 feats and his right hand is lv6 with 20 or so feats. This means you need to have charactes level up quickly, otherwise they'll look like a bunch of incompetent schmucks...

[Kaeso]

Adding to my previous post, you should know that there are two major ways of playing e6. Quoting straight from the E6 Sourcebook:

You could structure two campaigns the same way in terms of encounters: The players speak with a 6th-level cleric, who implores them to do battle with a wyvern living in the nearby hills while he takes the pass beneath the wyvern's lair to a town in need of his healing magic.

Under my approach, the cleric is described as a Very Important NPC. He might be Raulim, wandering mystic, servant of Fiutiel, the Angel of Virtue. The towns the players are helping are made up of 1st-level commoners and a few 1st-level experts and warriors. The head of the local militia is a 3rd-level warrior (he's been around a bit).

Under the other approach, the cleric is Raulim, the town cleric. He hasn't travelled much and although he's quite skilled as a cleric, his life is just as local as the peasants in his flock. If he's important to the story, it's because the PCs are familiar with him and have seen him before. In this case, the town probably has quite a few levelled characters; maybe the head of the town guard is a 6th level fighter, and many of the townsfolk are 3rd level commoners.

Approach 1 - This implies a slower level up speed. If a guy can become "Aedan, champion of the City of Jerdum, Protector of the weak and Slayer of Giants" after a few weeks, something is clearly wrong.

Approach 2 - The one I'm currently using (and the one used in the campaign I played). Yeah, after a few weeks of things trying to kill you, and you surviving, you can become a good warrior, hell, you're probably a very good warrior. But you're not the best... Far from it. That orc that has the title of "Scrumm, Bringer of Chaos and Blighter of Lands" won't just be a lv6 guy, he's probably lv6 AND has like 40+ feats. Not to mention his private army of death composed of a lot of lv2 characters, some lv3 or 4. His generals are lv6 with 5~10 feats and his right hand is lv6 with 20 or so feats. This means you need to have charactes level up quickly, otherwise they'll look like a bunch of incompetent schmucks...

I like to second the second approach (:smalltongue:) by saying this is the most true to the E6 approach. Sure, by the time you reach level 6 you're a really, really strong and talented guy, but you're not the greatest warrior in the realm. That would be a man with more experience, more combat skill, more training. That is best represented by feats. Sure, you and Scrumm may be roughly equally matched, but Scrumm has been around so long that he knows all sorts of strange, exotic techniques you could never have dreamed of.

Also, another thing that I like about E6 is that even a 6th level character never becomes effectively immortal. A bunch of 3rd level warriors (trained, somewhat experienced but by no means special) can still take down Scrumm, Bringer of Chaos, if they outnumber him 10 to 1.

[PsyBomb]

I like e6 a lot... With the caveat that metamagic can't bring an unmitigated spell slot above 4th. Given that caveat, the T1/2 classes really aren't edging out the others by that much, and you stop seeing things like the DMM Persistomancers and Twin Fell Drain Spam.

Given that, in E6, Druids take top slot with Wild Shape and the Animal Companion. Even then, though, if you want to go by JaronK's definitions they are probably T3

[heavyfuel]

I like e6 a lot... With the caveat that metamagic can't bring an unmitigated spell slot above 4th. Given that caveat, the T1/2 classes really aren't edging out the others by that much, and you stop seeing things like the DMM Persistomancers and Twin Fell Drain Spam.

Given that, in E6, Druids take top slot with Wild Shape and the Animal Companion. Even then, though, if you want to go by JaronK's definitions they are probably T3

I'd still put Druid in Tier1, even with your houserule about metamagic. Animal Companion gives the Druid two actions per round, the capstone is a Large Animal wild shape, which means that he's stronger than a Barbarian in combat and Extra Wild Shape means you can stay in Wild Shape all day if you so choose (4 uses of 6 hours each). With that many feats, getting things like Imp Natural Attack, Multi Attack, Improved Natural Armor and Vow of Poverty (because you don't need money for anything) will make you a melee monster. You're also the most SAD thing in existence because you "want" 13 in the physical attributes to qualify for some feats (though this is debatable), and the rest in Wis. You also have 4+Int skills and a decent list that includes Diplomacy and Spot to pick from. And you have spells. Not spells like a ranger has spells, but ACTUAL FULL CASTING CAPABILITIES!

Druids are by far the most broken class in e6. They're still Tier1 by definition: Can do everything well, and do things better than classes made for it (Fight better than Fighter or Barbarain, detect better than a Ranger)

Edit: Also, a Snowcast Flashfrost Sculpted Invisible Grease is still a 3rd level spell that forces two Balance checks to stay afoot. So while you may not have the Wizard spamming Twined Fell Drain, he can still control the battlefield like it's nothing. I'd say the sheer versatility of the Wizard with things like these, Abrupt Jaunt, +6 Initiative Hummingbird familiar (with the Obtain Familiar feat), as well as spells like Fly, Nerveskitter, Grease, Reduce/Enlarge Person and whatever else. He also qualifies for Tier 1, even with the houserule.

[Komatik]

Wildshape Mystic Rangers w/Sword of the Arcane Order might be pretty tough competition though?

[ddude987]

Wildshape Mystic Rangers w/Sword of the Arcane Order might be pretty tough competition though?

I don't see how this isn't better than a druid in some ways. Full BaB means an iterive attack in e6, gets the same wild shape capability, and can cast wizard spells.

[heavyfuel]

Wildshape Mystic Rangers w/Sword of the Arcane Order might be pretty tough competition though?

Sorry, but this combo is ilegal.

OTHER CLASS VARIANTS
[...]

Ranger
A ranger might forgo training in weapon combat in exchange
for the ability to take animal form and move swiftly through
the woodlands.
Gain: Wild shape (as druid; Small or Medium animals only),
fast movement (as barbarian).
Lose: Combat style, improved combat style, combat style
mastery.


Sword of the Arcane Order
[...]

Prerequisite
Paladin 4th of Azuth or Mystra, or ranger 4th of Mystra;


Emphasis added.

While it might be fine to houserule it otherwise, a Mystic Ranger isn't a Ranger. It's a different base class, even if they share a similar name and similar features. You only qualify to get wild shape if you're a Ranger, and you must have 4 levels in Ranger to qualify for Sword of the Arcane Order.

If the combo seems broken, it's because it literally is:


Verb (used with object), broke or (Archaic) brake; broken or (Archaic) broke; breaking.

2. to infringe, ignore, or act contrary to (a law, rule, promise, etc.):
She broke her promise.

Straight from dictionary.com

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Sorry, but this combo is ilegal.

OTHER CLASS VARIANTS
[...]

Ranger
A ranger might forgo training in weapon combat in exchange
for the ability to take animal form and move swiftly through
the woodlands.
Gain: Wild shape (as druid; Small or Medium animals only),
fast movement (as barbarian).
Lose: Combat style, improved combat style, combat style
mastery.


Sword of the Arcane Order
[...]

Prerequisite
Paladin 4th of Azuth or Mystra, or ranger 4th of Mystra;


Emphasis added.

While it might be fine to houserule it otherwise, a Mystic Ranger isn't a Ranger. It's a different base class, even if they share a similar name and similar features. You only qualify to get wild shape if you're a Ranger, and you must have 4 levels in Ranger to qualify for Sword of the Arcane Order.

If the combo seems broken, it's because it literally is:



Straight from dictionary.com


Where is the wording for Mystic Ranger? Depending on the wording it probably counts as a Ranger. Variant classes tend to count as that class.

[heavyfuel]

Where is the wording for Mystic Ranger? Depending on the wording it probably counts as a Ranger. Variant classes tend to count as that class.

It's in Dragon Magazine 336, pg 105. And it is a variant Ranger, but that doesn't matter because so is Wild Shape. You can't have two variants unless stated as such (like the Thug and Sneak Attack Fighter).

To get Sword of the Arcane Order, you don't need to be Ranger, but a Ranger that's of the Order of the Shooting Star. And since Mystic Ranger isn't the standard Ranger, he doesn't get to pick the substitution levels and can't therefore get the Sword of the Arcane Order feat

From page 34 of Champions of Valor:

Substitution levels are levels of a given class that you take to gain certain benefits instead of the level benefits associated with the standard class. Selecting a substitution level is not the same as multiclassing; you remain in the class for which the substitution level was taken. The class features of the substitution level simply replace those of the normal level. To qualify for a substitution level, you must be of the proper class.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

It's in Dragon Magazine 336, pg 105. And it is a variant Ranger, but that doesn't matter because so is Wild Shape. You can't have two variants unless stated as such (like the Thug and Sneak Attack Fighter).

To get Sword of the Arcane Order, you don't need to be Ranger, but a Ranger that's of the Order of the Shooting Star. And since Mystic Ranger isn't the standard Ranger, he doesn't get to pick the substitution levels and can't therefore get the Sword of the Arcane Order feat

From page 34 of Champions of Valor:

I believe somewhere there was a rule that said you can have multiple variants as long as they took different abilities from the original. Pathfinder later used this for the archetypes.

The wording on the fighter variant class seems more like a reminder than a hard rule. It doesn't say "unlike other variants this one may be taken with the Thug variant".

Variant Classes are the same class, just a variant. If you say that they are different classes then their abilities and such then things get weird. This is from UA...

"Multiclassing And Variant Classes
Multiclassing between variants of the same class is a tricky subject. In cases where a single class offers a variety of paths (such as the totem barbarian or the monk fighting styles), the easiest solution is simply to bar multiclassing between different versions of the same class (just as a character can't multiclass between different versions of specialist wizards). For variants that are wholly separate from the character class—such as the bardic sage or the urban ranger—multiclassing, even into multiple variants of the same class, is probably okay. Identical class features should stack if gained from multiple versions of the same class (except for spellcasting, which is always separate).

In any case, only the first version of a favored class is treated as favored; a halfling rogue/wizard who later begins gaining levels in the wilderness rogue variant class can't treat both the rogue and wilderness rogue classes as favored, only the class gained first (in this case, rogue). Under no circumstances does spellcasting ability from multiple classes (even variants of the same class) stack. A character with levels of bard and levels of bardic sage has two separate caster levels and two separate sets of spells per day, even though the classes are very similar."

So if the Mystic Ranger is wholly different then you have an argument that it isn't a ranger, but only slightly. If the mystic ranger is similar enough then it is still a ranger. Either way I see the Mystic Ranger as a Ranger variant and this counts as a Ranger because a variant is just that, slightly modified.

Or are you saying that Wilderness Rogue would never qualify for a Prestige Class that asks for Rogue levels? Cause then you are going into weird territory.

[heavyfuel]

I believe somewhere there was a rule that said you can have multiple variants as long as they took different abilities from the original. Pathfinder later used this for the archetypes.

The wording on the fighter variant class seems more like a reminder than a hard rule. It doesn't say "unlike other variants this one may be taken with the Thug variant".

Variant Classes are the same class, just a variant. If you say that they are different classes then their abilities and such then things get weird. This is from UA...

"Multiclassing And Variant Classes
Multiclassing between variants of the same class is a tricky subject. In cases where a single class offers a variety of paths (such as the totem barbarian or the monk fighting styles), the easiest solution is simply to bar multiclassing between different versions of the same class (just as a character can't multiclass between different versions of specialist wizards). For variants that are wholly separate from the character class—such as the bardic sage or the urban ranger—multiclassing, even into multiple variants of the same class, is probably okay. Identical class features should stack if gained from multiple versions of the same class (except for spellcasting, which is always separate).

In any case, only the first version of a favored class is treated as favored; a halfling rogue/wizard who later begins gaining levels in the wilderness rogue variant class can't treat both the rogue and wilderness rogue classes as favored, only the class gained first (in this case, rogue). Under no circumstances does spellcasting ability from multiple classes (even variants of the same class) stack. A character with levels of bard and levels of bardic sage has two separate caster levels and two separate sets of spells per day, even though the classes are very similar."

So if the Mystic Ranger is wholly different then you have an argument that it isn't a ranger, but only slightly. If the mystic ranger is similar enough then it is still a ranger. Either way I see the Mystic Ranger as a Ranger variant and this counts as a Ranger because a variant is just that, slightly modified.

Or are you saying that Wilderness Rogue would never qualify for a Prestige Class that asks for Rogue levels? Cause then you are going into weird territory.

That quote from UA means nothing. Ok, so I can have 3 lvs in Wilderness Rogue and 17 in Rogue. What does this have to do with having two Variant Classes on a single Class? Ok, you should* be able to get 3 lvs in Mystic Ranger and 3 in Wild Shape ranger, but the quote makes no mention of having both variants in a single "'Mystic Ranger that can wildshape class" that gets the benefits of both with a single spellcasting progression. Hell it explicitly says that for spellcasting variants the spellcasting component is always separate. (*you should, if the Mystic Ranger didn't outright forbid you)

If anything, it just further proves that these are different classes because you can't pick Barbarian 2 twice to get Imp Uncanny Dodge a level earlier. Being different classes, they don't qualify for Substitution Levels from Champions of Valor, because they are clearly not the standard class that is required.

I honestly don't know of any PrC that requires "Rogue levels", but if there is one, than by RAW, the Wilderness Rogue (a different class) shouldn't qualify. If the RAW seems like weird territory, that's because it usually is (as can be seen in Drown Healing, Monks not being proficient with their Unarmed attacks or any of the things listed in the Dysfunctional Rules thread)

I feel there's been enough thread-hijacking here. If your DM thinks that a Mystic Ranger can qualify for Shooting Star levels and Wildshape variant, that's fine (how you're exchanging Endurance you only get a level later and an animal companion you never had in the first place is another issue). But it's not RAW, it's rule 0.