A Campaign to Kill Asmodeus

[atemu1234]

I've noticed it appearing a lot in the forums, and I'm not only wondering if it can be done, but if stats exist for Asmodeus' true form, whether or not it could be used as a campaign, among other things. Any tips?

[ddude987]

Isn't he encased in ice and stuck there on the 10th layer of hell? To the planar questions thread! Nope, I'm an idiot, that is Levistus

[Promises Kept]

Stats for Asmodeus' true form, assuming it is indeed an immense creature in the depths of Hell (because while that's the general assumption, it isn't exactly confirmed), do not exist in any official 3.0/3.5 content. Whether or not it is valid as a campaign idea depends entirely on how the DM chooses to play Asmodeus. Played at the level he deserves, it would take one hell of a curve ball to throw him off his game, much less kill him. Played at the limits of a DM's capacity, it is entirely possible to take him down. Generally, I would advise putting PC's in direct opposition to one of the most ancient, dangerous, and intelligent beings to have ever existed. It can't possibly end well, particularly if the Pact Primeval gets drawn into matters.

[ddude987]

It does seem rather suicidal and/or a grueling quest. I'm not sure what level you'd start at, but for a full grown campaign, from low to high levels, all that just to kill Asmodeusis quite a while. Maybe instead of having the players directly fight and kill Asmodeus, stopping some evil plot to bring him to the mortal world or something similar would be as interesting?

[Emperor Tippy]

There are no RAW stats for his true form, at least to the best of my memory. I believe the ones in the Fiendish Codex and Book of Vile Darkness are both for aspects or avatars but I could be misremembering one of them.

That being said, you can certainly run a campaign where the PC's are trying to kill Asmodeus.

If you actually do him justice though then you need to both be able to DM Epic level, paranoia style, D&D very well and have a group that is comfortable playing at that level. Even then you are going to have to homebrew a lot of stuff and stack the plot so that the PC's can do it (i.e. finding artifacts to protect against or counter various powers of Asmodeus, doing quests for other gods to get blessings from them to counter other things, building alliances, etc.).

[Renen]

All hail tippy!

[atemu1234]

There are no RAW stats for his true form, at least to the best of my memory. I believe the ones in the Fiendish Codex and Book of Vile Darkness are both for aspects or avatars but I could be misremembering one of them.

That being said, you can certainly run a campaign where the PC's are trying to kill Asmodeus.

If you actually do him justice though then you need to both be able to DM Epic level, paranoia style, D&D very well and have a group that is comfortable playing at that level. Even then you are going to have to homebrew a lot of stuff and stack the plot so that the PC's can do it (i.e. finding artifacts to protect against or counter various powers of Asmodeus, doing quests for other gods to get blessings from them to counter other things, building alliances, etc.).

I'd probably start with the Pact Primeval: I'd probably go the elder scrolls route (any mortal reading it goes blind, because you're basically staring into the heart of the universe) and maybe have them have to kill him the moment the Pact ceases to work (like it expires, like a normal contract). Then there's stat-ing the true form of Asmodeus- probably would have to go to the homebrew forums for that one. Finally, who would help the PCs achieve this? Harking back to the older additions, they did at one point stat Lucifer, updated third-party by the people that made Tome of Horrors. Using the backstory presented there, it would be understandable of him to want revenge.

[ChaosArchon]

Not that I'm an expert but isn't part of his mythology that when he was cast out of heaven he fell so hard that he was practically unable to go to the material plane due to the damage he sustained and him becoming the torturer of the damned was his way to heal himself? Maybe the campaign can be in pre-history before he got fully healed and isn't this all powerful Mary Sue devil the forums love.

[atemu1234]

Not that I'm an expert but isn't part of his mythology that when he was cast out of heaven he fell so hard that he was practically unable to go to the material plane due to the damage he sustained and him becoming the torturer of the damned was his way to heal himself? Maybe the campaign can be in pre-history before he got fully healed and isn't this all powerful Mary Sue devil the forums love.

I honestly don't know about this. Source please.

[ChaosArchon]

Asmodeus' Fall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asmodeus_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#Fictional_characte r_biography) 10th paragraph in fictional character biography.

[atemu1234]

Asmodeus' Fall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asmodeus_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#Fictional_characte r_biography) 10th paragraph in fictional character biography.

Using wikipedia as a source? My english teacher would've hated you. I'll recheck that against the Codex. I remember him getting thrown out, but not much about anything else.

[ChaosArchon]

I would cite the Codex but I forgot the page and wikipedia is alot easier to search through :P Plus I feel like the D&D pages on wikipedia aren't big targets for griefers.

[atemu1234]

I would cite the Codex but I forgot the page and wikipedia is alot easier to search through :P Plus I feel like the D&D pages on wikipedia aren't big targets for griefers.

True. I was kidding, for the most part. The part about my english teacher hating you probably wasn't. But hey, thanks for the help.

[Slipperychicken]

1. I figure that a deity-like being without stats is immortal in the truest sense of the word, being totally unable to die. That is to say that finally killing Asmodeus is truly impossible.

2. Asmodeus' true form probably still has that awesome sword called "Punishment", which is unstatted and would probably whoop any adventurer's behind.

3. Destroying Asmodeus is a pretty bad idea if the Blood War is still going on. Then the gods would have to go back to spending all their time fighting demons, leaving them no time to tend to creation. They gave Asmodeus his plane and let him punish souls specifically so the gods could take a break from battling Chaos all the time.

4. Good luck destroying the god-powered schemer who is such an incredible strategist that his finite numbers of devils can fight infinite demons for ever. And he still has time left over to plot the gods' downfall. Of course he can take down some do-gooder adventuring punks.

[icefractal]

Sure, Asmodeus has all the powers, all the pacts, his true form is inconceivable, etc, etc.

But ... that doesn't mean jack, really. I mean, D&D has a lot of powerful beings in it. Like, for example, the gods. Who actually have divine rank, whereas Big A may or may not. But if you suggested that killing a god could be the focus of a campaign, I don't think people would treat that as impossible. I mean heck, arguably some of the Elder Evils are on his level, and those were all solo'd by a Monk! :smallbiggrin:

Well, for whatever reason, Asmodeus has more resonance with a lot of the fanbase, so he's considered more powerful. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But we should keep in mind that in terms of canon, he doesn't actually need to be unbeatable in any given campaign.


So as to the OP - yes, obviously, this could be a campaign. You'd need to decide what the major components were. At an overview level, you need to:
1) Negate/circumvent the pact primordial.
2) Find and get to the real Asmodeus.
3) Be able to kill him.
4) Make him stay dead.
5) Deal with the fallout.

Each of those steps would have a lot of subtasks.

That's just the most straightforward route. Instead of attacking him, you could try to engage in string-manipulation to undermine Asmodeus and trick him into his demise. Based on how he's described, I would think this would actually be harder than killing him.

[ChaosArchon]

Sure, Asmodeus has all the powers, all the pacts, his true form is inconceivable, etc, etc.

But ... that doesn't mean jack, really. I mean, D&D has a lot of powerful beings in it. Like, for example, the gods. Who actually have divine rank, whereas Big A may or may not. But if you suggested that killing a god could be the focus of a campaign, I don't think people would treat that as impossible. I mean heck, arguably some of the Elder Evils are on his level, and those were all solo'd by a Monk! :smallbiggrin:

Well, for whatever reason, Asmodeus has more resonance with a lot of the fanbase, so he's considered more powerful. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But we should keep in mind that in terms of canon, he doesn't actually need to be unbeatable in any given campaign.

as I said above, he is this forum's devilish Mary Sue :smallwink:

[TheDarkDM]

as I said above, he is this forum's devilish Mary Sue :smallwink:

I mean, that's kind of an inevitability when the books have you bleeding max HD, max hp Pit Fiends. As badass as those other ancient and elder evils are, very few have the attention paid to them or the hard numbers to really compare to Asmodeus on a fluff or crunch level.

[Alleran]

Sure, Asmodeus has all the powers, all the pacts, his true form is inconceivable, etc, etc.
And, of course a super-charged greater deity of magic (Mystra), using a spell that included a divinely-granted insanity as a component (Halaster's Shar-imposed madness), was only able to inflict the equivalent of about a cantrip (Daze with a couple of seconds of a "mental blank" on what he was about to do) on him, even when she had the drop on him. In a book written by the guy who created Mystra.

Asmodeus is well and truly in the Big Leagues (capitalisation intentional). If you're able to go head to head with him and, even better, outplan him, well... maybe it's time to make new characters?

[Eldariel]

Sure, Asmodeus has all the powers, all the pacts, his true form is inconceivable, etc, etc.

But ... that doesn't mean jack, really. I mean, D&D has a lot of powerful beings in it. Like, for example, the gods. Who actually have divine rank, whereas Big A may or may not. But if you suggested that killing a god could be the focus of a campaign, I don't think people would treat that as impossible. I mean heck, arguably some of the Elder Evils are on his level, and those were all solo'd by a Monk! :smallbiggrin:

Well, for whatever reason, Asmodeus has more resonance with a lot of the fanbase, so he's considered more powerful. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But we should keep in mind that in terms of canon, he doesn't actually need to be unbeatable in any given campaign.

The thing with Asmodeus is, he's kinda beyond the level where D&D mostly operates. He's more comparable to Ao than anything else - if he were merely on the level of the countless deities, Hells would've been gone long ago. He's also a master strategist on a divine level where he plays the whole pantheon with his left hand. In a world where everyone has similar power, the smartest one is the best able to put that to use and Asmodeus's past exploits mark him more or less unparalleled in that regard, hence how he managed to guile everybody into Pact Primordial in the first place.

Now that his position is way stronger than in the start and he already has millenia of activities, underlings and powers to protect him, taking him down without the powers on the level of Ao would be nigh impossible. And Ao really doesn't care.

[TheGeckoKing]

His true form isn't inconceivable or even that notable, and the books say as much:


.....directly confronting an archdevil in the seat of his power is a classic and time-honored D&D campaign goal. Statistics for archdevils in their true forms have appeared in Book of Vile Darkness, and those presentations.....

Asmodeus is CR32, and tl;dr if you can kill an epic level cleric you can kill Old Asmo'. Mind you, it would be entirely in character for him to use PO/TO tricks against anyone who actually threatened him, so you might have to take that previous statement with a pinch of salt, depending on your game's optimization level.

[Shining Wrath]

Set a thief to catch a thief; set a godlike creature to catch a godlike creature.

I would start the campaign by having each PC choose a greater deity and undertake a quest to become a level 1 demigod in that pantheon. Then they can start assembling what they need to take on Big A after they become immortal, because they'll need some time to get what they need.

They also require the blessing (literal and figurative) of their respective greater deities to do this. Maybe things have reached the point where the Pact Primordial isn't working from the perspective of most gods of most alignments. Perhaps the Blood War is spilling over into other planes somehow (after all, an infinite number of demons is going to have an infinite number of epic level spellcasters, and all readers of these forums know that such an entity can do just about anything). Or everyone except maybe Cuthbert agrees that no level of mortal evil deserves an eternity of punishment. Whatever excuse works.

Having achieved demigod status the PCs can read and understand the Pact Primordial. And know how to end it. And replace it with something different (hopefully better). And in the course of remaking the Pact, Big A has to go.

All discussion of the fall of Asmodeus go back to the fact that some of Gary Gygax's sources for D&D cosmology were Dante and Milton. If you haven't read Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost, they are worth the effort.

[Vedhin]

I'd probably start with the Pact Primeval: I'd probably go the elder scrolls route (any mortal reading it goes blind, because you're basically staring into the heart of the universe) and maybe have them have to kill him the moment the Pact ceases to work (like it expires, like a normal contract).

The Pact Primeval isn't going to expire. And the other Powers That Be have a vested interest in keeping it the Pact Primeval intact, lest the whole afterlife situation get all messed up.

Let me reiterate the bolded part. Asmodeus is in such a situation that if he was seriously threatened, it would be in the best interests of even Good gods to close ranks and smite the upstart, rather than let the Lord Below get beat. And he manipulated his way into this situation.


His true form isn't inconceivable or even that notable, and the books say as much:

Asmodeus is CR32, and tl;dr if you can kill an epic level cleric you can kill Old Asmo'. Mind you, it would be entirely in character for him to use PO/TO tricks against anyone who actually threatened him, so you might have to take that previous statement with a pinch of salt, depending on your game's optimization level.

Check the Manual of the Planes. That thing there is something along the lines of a highly advanced project image.

[Shining Wrath]

The Pact Primeval isn't going to expire. And the other Powers That Be have a vested interest in keeping it the Pact Primeval intact, lest the whole afterlife situation get all messed up.

Let me reiterate the bolded part. Asmodeus is in such a situation that if he was seriously threatened, it would be in the best interests of even Good gods to close ranks and smite the upstart, rather than let the Lord Below get beat. And he manipulated his way into this situation.



Check the Manual of the Planes. That thing there is something along the lines of a highly advanced project image.

I think any campaign with the goal of taking out Asmodeus has to assume that the Pact Primeval is somehow no longer working, for the reason you state that otherwise you're not just fighting Big A, but the whole pantheon. Maybe the gods themselves have second thoughts; maybe new forces have appeared on the scene from some aberrant plane; maybe an infinite number of demons with an long amount of time found a loophole and are exploiting it. The first thing the DM has to work out is why the gods themselves would permit someone to remove the King of Hell.

Which could, conceivably, lead to Big A *not* being the BBEG, but simply someone who must be removed so that the Pact Primeval can be rewoven to deal with the REAL BBEG.

[Bluydee]

Basically, if you try to kill Asmodeus, you essentially are fighting against every god and devil alive. Perhaps another archdevil will help you in your quest, but they wouldn't be able to defeat the upper planes.

[Red Fel]

I've noticed it appearing a lot in the forums, and I'm not only wondering if it can be done, but if stats exist for Asmodeus' true form, whether or not it could be used as a campaign, among other things. Any tips?

The first thing to understand about Asmodeus is that, as a Major Power in the cosmology (deity or otherwise), being able to beat him boils down to DM fiat: If the DM wants you to be able to beat Asmodeus, he will be run like any other boss encounter; if the DM does not want you to be able to beat Asmodeus, there is no level of optimization (other than perhaps upper-Tippydom) that will win the day for you.

This is true of most encounters, naturally, but especially true of Asmodeus because - as mentioned - we have no idea what his real power is. We haven't yet seen his anime-style final form or anything. Asmodeus' full capabilities are somewhat left up to DM discretion.

So, unlike, say, the Tarrasque, which is supposed to be terrifyingly powerful but has stats and can therefore be killed, The True Form of Asmodeus is this nebulous thing, to be defined by the DM; as such, no amount of arguing over "that should have worked" or "the rules say I can" will let you win if the DM says you don't.

That said: If the campaign is actually designed around killing Asmodeus, we can assume the DM is at least on board with the possibility of the PCs killing Big A. The question becomes getting there.

As others have mentioned, beings on the Lawful spectrum, Good or Evil, will have a vested interest in A's survival, because of the Pact Primeval. The Pact ensures that Asmodeus gets the naughty souls, the Good planes get the nice souls, and all is right with the cosmos. A dead Asmodeus means no Pact, souls flying every which way, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria. It would be bad. So expect to find enemies not only amongst the Devils, but amongst the LG Celestials, and the LN Inevitables tasked with cosmological stability. Similarly, the NE Yugoloths, having a vested interest in the continuing conflict between LE and CE, won't be too happy about the PCs threatening to disrupt the balance.

By the same token, expect to find unexpected allies. CE Demons will see the opportunity to turn the tide of the Blood War. LE Devils, operating through agents behind agents, may see the opportunity for advancement by killing Asmodeus, even as others see the opportunity to gain favor by opposing you. CG Celestials may give less than two hoots about the Pact Primeval if it means destroying one of the greatest sources of Evil in the cosmology. Heck, find some Slaads and offer them the chance to go nuts in the Hells; they'll love it.

Now, the PCs. For a campaign with the explicit goal of killing a Major Power, you need to become extraplanar fairly quickly. Get off the Material. Here's why: For the PCs to pose a threat to a Major Power, they need to be powerful. Extremely powerful. That kind of power makes you powerful enemies (see above). It also makes you radiate like a bonfire in the Underdark. Your PCs will need to get off of the Material and into the Outer Planes, to stay on the move, to blend in with more powerful beings, and to recruit allies to their cause - because even a party of God Wizards will need help taking on Asmodeus.

[ben-zayb]

Hmm, didn't we already had the above discussion at least (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355530-Conquering-the-Nine-Hells) twice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?356729-Asmodeus-vs-4-lower-deity), for the past few weeks?

@OP The given stat blocks are presumably for his avatar-like forms only, from what I understand.

[Elderand]

Hmm, didn't we already had the above discussion at least (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355530-Conquering-the-Nine-Hells) twice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?356729-Asmodeus-vs-4-lower-deity), for the past few weeks?

@OP The given stat blocks are presumably for his avatar-like forms only, from what I understand.

You will quickly come to realise that whenever a thread is posted about a topic there is a higher than normal chance that a similar or outright identical new thread about the same subject will be posted in a short amount of time.

[atemu1234]

His true form isn't inconceivable or even that notable, and the books say as much:



Asmodeus is CR32, and tl;dr if you can kill an epic level cleric you can kill Old Asmo'. Mind you, it would be entirely in character for him to use PO/TO tricks against anyone who actually threatened him, so you might have to take that previous statement with a pinch of salt, depending on your game's optimization level.

I've reread that bit (the BOVD, not FCII) and it seems out of line with the powers presented elsewhere. Maybe that's the source of the confusion.

[Flavel]

Killing Asmodeus is possible but probably not directly.

The Politics of Hell incorporates a lot of opposing interests within an environment where loyalty is maintained by strength as much as law. Just about every Arch-Duke in hell would like nothing better then to see Asmodeus be deposed if for no other reason then the opportunities that would open up from the resulting power vacuum.

If enough Arch-Dukes were to oppose Asmodeus in a coordinated fashion to provide a united front, then yeah, it could happen. So far the Arch-Dukes have been played off and against each other. But all of this is delicate and precarious power politics.

As an example, if two Arch-Dukes who previously were fighting each other somehow became allies this could weaken the position of Asmodeus. After several such arrangements Asmodeus might be perceived as having a vulnerable position.

Vulnerability is weakness and weakness is among the deadly sins within hell.

One tiny little problem with this methodology being that Asmodeus wrote the book on politics and intrigue so the party is going to have its work cut out....

[TheDarkDM]

Killing Asmodeus is possible but probably not directly.

The Politics of Hell incorporates a lot of opposing interests within an environment where loyalty is maintained by strength as much as law. Just about every Arch-Duke in hell would like nothing better then to see Asmodeus be deposed if for no other reason then the opportunities that would open up from the resulting power vacuum.

If enough Arch-Dukes were to oppose Asmodeus in a coordinated fashion to provide a united front, then yeah, it could happen. So far the Arch-Dukes have been played off and against each other. But all of this is delicate and precarious power politics.

As an example, if two Arch-Dukes who previously were fighting each other somehow became allies this could weaken the position of Asmodeus. After several such arrangements Asmodeus might be perceived as having a vulnerable position.

Vulnerability is weakness and weakness is among the deadly sins within hell.

One tiny little problem with this methodology being that Asmodeus wrote the book on politics and intrigue so the party is going to have its work cut out....

The only problem with that is that you've essentially described the Reckoning, which Asmodeus won handily. You also have to account for the Dark Eight, who have authority over the majority of the baatezu armies and who are explicitly loyal to Asmodeus.

[Flavel]

The only problem with that is that you've essentially described the Reckoning, which Asmodeus won handily. You also have to account for the Dark Eight, who have authority over the majority of the baatezu armies and who are explicitly loyal to Asmodeus.

Well I didn't say it would be easy.

Still, there are other sources besides the Arch-Dukes and their assets. What about critters on the other side of the blood war? What about celestial interests?

The biggest problems would be convincing potential allies that:

#1 You are serious.
#2 You are not crazy.
#3 You bring enough to the table to be worth dealing with.
#4 You are not an agent of Asmodeus or other interests.
#5 Stuff I haven't thought of.

Then there is the likelihood that Asmodeus would get wind of what the party is doing. I'd guess that at some point he would no longer be amused.

[Shining Wrath]

Well I didn't say it would be easy.

Still, there are other sources besides the Arch-Dukes and their assets. What about critters on the other side of the blood war? What about celestial interests?

The biggest problems would be convincing potential allies that:

#1 You are serious.
#2 You are not crazy.
#3 You bring enough to the table to be worth dealing with.
#4 You are not an agent of Asmodeus or other interests.
#5 Stuff I haven't thought of.

Then there is the likelihood that Asmodeus would get wind of what the party is doing. I'd guess that at some point he would no longer be amused.

As I wrote, the first thing you need to do is become demigods. That offers a lot of protections. But to keep it, you need the blessing of your greater deities. Which means:

Any campaign where offing Asmodeus is the end game has to assume godly acquiescence, which means the Pact Primordial is no longer considered vital.

Which, in turns, may mean a bigger threat than both Hell and the demons put together.

[TheDarkDM]

Well I didn't say it would be easy.

Still, there are other sources besides the Arch-Dukes and their assets. What about critters on the other side of the blood war? What about celestial interests?

The biggest problems would be convincing potential allies that:

#1 You are serious.
#2 You are not crazy.
#3 You bring enough to the table to be worth dealing with.
#4 You are not an agent of Asmodeus or other interests.
#5 Stuff I haven't thought of.

Then there is the likelihood that Asmodeus would get wind of what the party is doing. I'd guess that at some point he would no longer be amused.

All true. Sadly, the Pact Primeval puts the kibosh on some of the more promising anti-Asmodeus alliances. Still, you could probably get the Eladrin and the Guardinals on board. Of course, then you have the hilarious situation of Celestia having a vested interest in preventing the invasion, so you've essentially set up Fields of Pesh 2: Electric Boogaloo.

[Flavel]

Aside from acquiring allies of one sort or another there is another possibility that could be explored that could be done in parallel with what has been previously discussed. Mainly pursuing the opposite of acquiring allies.

Some sort of disinformation campaign wherein the PCs attempt two agendas.

#1 Convince deities that Asmodeus is planning attacks (or was responsible for attacks) against their interests.

#2 Convince Asmodeus that deities are planning attacks (or was responsible for attacks) against his interests.

While deities and Asmodeus are not omniscient, they do tend to be well informed in their respective spheres of influence. Figuring out where blind-spots exist and what it would take to perform black operations outside divine scrutiny could well be several adventures in and of itself.

This is along the lines of stealing the Wand of Orcus and planting it on Pitfiends loyal to Asmodeus.
Okay, yeah, that's a rather crude analogy but you get the idea.

[Flavel]

As I wrote, the first thing you need to do is become demigods. That offers a lot of protections. But to keep it, you need the blessing of your greater deities. Which means:

Any campaign where offing Asmodeus is the end game has to assume godly acquiescence, which means the Pact Primordial is no longer considered vital.

Which, in turns, may mean a bigger threat than both Hell and the demons put together.

Depending on the campaign it may not be workable if the PCs are demigods. I'm not well versed on the Pact Primeval but isn't there a a sub-section that limits what deities can do in Hell? The advantage mortals have is they can operate outside such constraints. The disadvantage, obviously, is that they lack divine power.

Would seem to me that the PCs would have to come up with some sort of event or enticement by which Asmodeus would leave Hell.

[atemu1234]

I think we're making quite a few assumptions about the pact primeval. We know very little about its actual terms and we just assume it means that deities come to the rescue if Asmodeus is threatened; you look down on DM fiat but at the same time you're making assumptions not actually backed by fact, which is the core reason for DM fiat.

[Flavel]

I think we're making quite a few assumptions about the pact primeval. We know very little about its actual terms and we just assume it means that deities come to the rescue if Asmodeus is threatened; you look down on DM fiat but at the same time you're making assumptions not actually backed by fact, which is the core reason for DM fiat.

I said "depending on the campaign." The Pact Primeval is background material that is referenced but not completely described in detail.

Regardless, any campaign that involves the attempted removal of Asmodeus should take a hard look at what the pact primeval actually is. This, obviously being something the DM would do as a fiat interpretation.

[animewatcha]

You could mean, one cannot just IHS asmodeus or the pact?

[Slipperychicken]

You could mean, one cannot just IHS asmodeus or the pact?

I doubt the Pact Primeval is an effect whose duration is measured in rounds.

[Vogonjeltz]

Check the Manual of the Planes. That thing there is something along the lines of a highly advanced project image.

Manual of the Planes, published September 2001.
Book of Vile Darkness, published October 2002.

So that really is his stats.

[Elderand]

Manual of the Planes, published September 2001.
Book of Vile Darkness, published October 2002.

So that really is his stats.

Meanwhile in Fiendish Codex 2 the 3.5 source for asmodeus stats, they specificly call it an aspect, never stating the full thing.

[atemu1234]

Meanwhile in Fiendish Codex 2 the 3.5 source for asmodeus stats, they specificly call it an aspect, never stating the full thing.

They reference Asmodeus and his aspect being started in that book, so I'm inclined to believe the author never read the book.

[TheGeckoKing]

They reference Asmodeus and his aspect being started in that book, so I'm inclined to believe the author never read the book.

Not quite. The FCII states that the stats in FCII are for aspects, and that they were inspired by their stats for their TRUE FORMS in BoVD.
Seriously though, why are people so adamantly against Old Nick having stats? If Greater Deities can have stats and be killed, then why not Asmodeus? If you don't like him having stats, that's one thing, but it's entirely different to pretend he doesn't have stats when he does.

[Vedhin]

Seriously though, why are people so adamantly against Old Nick having stats? If Greater Deities can have stats and be killed, then why not Asmodeus? If you don't like him having stats, that's one thing, but it's entirely different to pretend he doesn't have stats when he does.

Personally, I'm against Deities of any sorts getting stats.

In general though, it's because the stats just plain don't match well with the fluff.

[TheGeckoKing]

Personally, I'm against Deities of any sorts getting stats.

In general though, it's because the stats just plain don't match well with the fluff.

Eh, if you were gonna start retconning stats and mechanics away because they didn't match up well with the fluff, you might as well cut out the middle man, burn most of your D&D 3.5 books and write your own stuff. :smalltongue:

[Vedhin]

Eh, if you were gonna start retconning stats and mechanics away because they didn't match up well with the fluff, you might as well cut out the middle man, burn most of your D&D 3.5 books and write your own stuff. :smalltongue:

That's far too much work. Simply saying "No, that's not Asmodeus, it's an Aspect/the advance project image thing/etc." works fine.

I prefer a similar approach for Deities also. You aren't actually fighting the god directly, but rather some fragment of it's power.

[Elderand]

Not quite. The FCII states that the stats in FCII are for aspects, and that they were inspired by their stats for their TRUE FORMS in BoVD.

Except that's not what the book actually say.

Here is what the book actually say about the true form of archdevils.


Statistics for archdevils in their true forms do not appear in this book, because the actual power level of such a
being should vary depending on the nature of your campaign.

And here is what it has to say about stats in book of vile darkness.


Statistics for archdevils in their true forms have appeared in Book of Vile Darkness, and those presentations have directly inspired the statistics for archdevils aspects presented in this book.

These two quotes taken together mean one thing and one thing only. As far as 3.5 goes the stats for the archdevil in book of vile darkness aren't the definitive stats, a DM can use them if he wants, or he can say archdevil don't have stats and can't be killed or any other potential solution.

It's a DM choice.

For 3.0 the stats in book of vile darkness are canon, for 3.5 they are just one possibility.

[Phelix-Mu]

For 3.0 the stats in book of vile darkness are canon, for 3.5 they are just one possibility.

I believe when Monte Cooke, the main author of BoVD, released errata/3.5 updates for his book, he commented on the versions in the original book not being up to snuff and being more appropriate for aspects. Really wish I had a .pdf for that update; darn laptop turnover, always messing up my filing system. And when I get organized enough to back it up somewhere, miraculously that fails too.

Anyway, a big failure of all official material was its use of the optimization baseline established in the core books. Which is to say, almost no optimization (and a good deal of downright idiocy). So I don't think that any of the creatures in the upper echelons of the CRs are what they should be, with a few choice exceptions. Pit fiends are a great example; mighty diabolic generals they are not. Impressive, capable of being a challenge in many a campaign, but solar pretty much blows them out of the water, and solar isn't really optimized either.

Anyone that runs gods by-the-book isn't going to get high marks with me. dicefreaks is how to run deities and the most powerful fiends/celestials. Google it. Their orcus renewed my faith in humanity. (lol, Orcus wouldn't be too pleased with that.)

[I3igAl]

In my campaign my GM-PC one rounded him with his dual Katanas.


Joke aside. You can use Book of Vile Darkness stats or make him stronger or weaker as you wish OP. You can also adjust the fluff accordingly to make him killable and you would likely have to remove the bloodwar from your continuity to not cause any side effects.

Anyway it should be an Epic level campaign, if you intent to down such a foe.

A good asset would be an epic lvl Expert(Lawyer) declaring the Pact Primeval as invalid due to procedural errors.

[TheGeckoKing]

I believe when Monte Cooke, the main author of BoVD, released errata/3.5 updates for his book, he commented on the versions in the original book not being up to snuff and being more appropriate for aspects. Really wish I had a .pdf for that update; darn laptop turnover, always messing up my filing system. And when I get organized enough to back it up somewhere, miraculously that fails too.

The only one I can find isn't in the official list (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a), but is an unofficial errata called the Leaflets of Triel (http://images.wikia.com/d20npcs/images/c/cc/Leaflets_of_Triel.pdf). It even outlines ways you can change the archfiend stats to suit your campaign.

As for the discussion about Asmodeus' stats, I'll just agree to disagree. If I'm honest, it seems to me that the FCII writers knew the BoVD stats were garbage but didn't want to update them themselves, and tried to hint that without calling out Monte.

[Shining Wrath]

... SNIP ...

Anyway it should be an Epic level campaign, if you intent to down such a foe.

A good asset would be an epic lvl Expert(Lawyer) declaring the Pact Primeval as invalid due to procedural errors.

I like how you think. A Lawful Neutral lawyer made immortal by a LN deity with one purpose for his immortality: find a way to nullify the Pact Primeval so that the chaotic may be properly punished for their sins.

[Reshy]

You could always bind Zargon the Returner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258840-Binding-Elder-Evils-A-miniguide), sure he'd like nothing more than to pound on Asmodeus for all eternity. He's also an excellent grapple bot and can probably hold Asmodeus down. You'll have to back him up though obviously because he's already lost once. Consider getting a graft for Zargon that grants fly-speed, as that's his major weakness. Zargon is vulnerable to cold and fire, as those break his 50HP regeneration; See if you can't get him the fire and cold subtype or otherwise get him immunities. Also you'll need to keep Asmodeus from ripping off his horn. Also he has freedom of movement, be careful of that when binding.

And remember doooon't summon him in the material plane unless you want his mark affecting that.

[atemu1234]

I prefer to go by the book on this one and say that BOVD is actually his stats; or rather, the closest we'll get to his actual stats, by the book. FCII may have said in a single sentence something about it, but quite frankly if we're going to actually try and kill Asmodeus, we should probably go by the stats in BOVD.

[Spuddles]

vecna blood yourself, eschew material travel through time to a quintessence bubble before time began, mind rape yourself and mentally reprogam you to do what needs to be done (kill big A), then chill in stasis until the present day where you hatch from your time-cocoon and use some 10^100 shenanigans.

[Vedhin]

You could always bind Zargon the Returner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258840-Binding-Elder-Evils-A-miniguide), sure he'd like nothing more than to pound on Asmodeus for all eternity. He's also an excellent grapple bot and can probably hold Asmodeus down. You'll have to back him up though obviously because he's already lost once. Consider getting a graft for Zargon that grants fly-speed, as that's his major weakness. Zargon is vulnerable to cold and fire, as those break his 50HP regeneration; See if you can't get him the fire and cold subtype or otherwise get him immunities. Also you'll need to keep Asmodeus from ripping off his horn. Also he has freedom of movement, be careful of that when binding.

And remember doooon't summon him in the material plane unless you want his mark affecting that.

Are you aware of how pathetic Zargon is, relatively speaking? The leading theory in afroakuma's Planar Questions threads is that he's a sort of paper tiger. Asmodeus claims this random bozo was tough for him to reassure the other Powers That Be.