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Zeta Kai
2007-02-24, 12:57 AM
I believe that the RAW ignore a vital component of the Move Silently skill: the creature's size. As far as I can determine, a dragon with a few ranks of Move Silently can sneak into the middle of a village before wreaking havoc, leaving the guards literally flat-footed & stunned. Also, by extension, a butterfly (presumable with no ranks of Move Silently) could be easily detected by said dragon, as long as the dragon has ranks in Listen (or even doing so untrained as a Wisdom check).

To fix this, I propose the following:

Moving Silently
If a PC is trying to move silently around an NPC, the NPC’s chance to detect the PC (via a listen check) is modified by the relative sizes of the two characters. If the PC is the same size as the NPC, then there is no bonus or penalty (+0). However if the human PC (size: Medium) is attempting to move silently around a giant (size: Large), then the NPC is one size category larger than the opposing PC, & rolls his listen checks at a -2 penalty. Conversely, if the same human PC (size: Medium) is attempting to move silently around a gnome (size: Small), then the NPC is one size category smaller than the opposing PC, & rolls his listen checks at a +2 bonus. These bonuses or penalties stack with each other, so for example, if a gnome PC (size: Small), then the NPC is two size categories larger than the opposing PC, & rolls his listen checks at a -4 penalty. See below for a comparative chart.

Scenario: PC is 8 sizes smaller than the NPC
Example: A fly sneaking up on a Tarrasque
Opposing Penalty/Bonus to Listen: -16

Scenario: PC is 7 sizes smaller than the NPC
Example: A toad sneaking up on a Wyrm Dragon
Opposing Penalty/Bonus to Listen: -14

Scenario: PC is 6 sizes smaller than the NPC
Example: A carp sneaking up on a Kraken
Opposing Penalty/Bonus to Listen: -12

Scenario: PC is 5 sizes smaller than the NPC
Example: A cat sneaking up on a Purple Worm
Opposing Penalty/Bonus to Listen: -10

Scenario: PC is 4 sizes smaller than the NPC
Example: A halfling sneaking up on a 50' statue
Opposing Penalty/Bonus to Listen: -8

Scenario: PC is 3 sizes smaller than the NPC
Example: A gnome sneaking up on a bulette
Opposing Penalty/Bonus to Listen: -6

Scenario: PC is 2 sizes smaller than the NPC
Example: A human sneaking up on a cloud giant
Opposing Penalty/Bonus to Listen: -4

Scenario: PC is 1 size smaller than the NPC
Example: An orc sneaking up on a horse
Opposing Penalty/Bonus to Listen: -2

Scenario: PC is equal in size to the NPC
Example: An elf sneaking up on a human
Opposing Penalty/Bonus to Listen: 0

Scenario: PC is 1 size larger than the NPC
Example: An horse sneaking up on a orc
Opposing Penalty/Bonus to Listen: +2

Scenario: PC is 2 sizes larger than the NPC
Example: A cloud giant sneaking up on a human
Opposing Penalty/Bonus to Listen: +4

Scenario: PC is 3 sizes larger than the NPC
Example: A bulette sneaking up on a gnome
Opposing Penalty/Bonus to Listen: +6

Scenario: PC is 4 sizes larger than the NPC
Example: A 50' statue sneaking up on a halfling
Opposing Penalty/Bonus to Listen: +8

Scenario: PC is 5 sizes larger than the NPC
Example: A Purple Worm sneaking up on a cat
Opposing Penalty/Bonus to Listen: +10

Scenario: PC is 6 sizes larger than the NPC
Example: A Kraken sneaking up on a carp
Opposing Penalty/Bonus to Listen: +12

Scenario: PC is 7 sizes larger than the NPC
Example: A Wyrm Dragon sneaking up on a toad
Opposing Penalty/Bonus to Listen: +14

Scenario: PC is 8 sizes larger than the NPC
Example: A Tarrasque sneaking up on a fly
Opposing Penalty/Bonus to Listen: +16


PEACH

magic8BALL
2007-02-24, 06:34 AM
Why not just say there a size modifier to Move Silently checks?

+4 for every size smaller than medium, -4 for every size larger.

Your size dosn't really effect what you hear, so leave Listen alone.

Much easier, and brings Move Silently in line with Hide.

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-02-24, 07:28 AM
The OP is suggesting a +/- 2 adjustment per size category difference, not a +/- 4 adjustment.

Otherwise, I think magic8BALL may have worded the rule that Zeta Kai is proposing a little better. It makes sense that a size difference would aid or hamper Move Silently.

jlousivy
2007-02-24, 01:16 PM
you bring up a great point... there's absolutely no reason a tarrasque should be able to sneak up on a person but a fly not be able to sneak up on a great wyrm

nivek1234
2007-02-24, 02:38 PM
The OP is suggesting a +/- 2 adjustment per size category difference, not a +/- 4 adjustment.

Otherwise, I think magic8BALL may have worded the rule that Zeta Kai is proposing a little better. It makes sense that a size difference would aid or hamper Move Silently.

I think Zeta Kai is trying to say that it takes the same amount of skill for a pixie to sneak up on another pixie as a Wyrm Dragon to sneak up on another Wyrm Dragon. With a straight +/- 4 based on size, this analogy would not be true. I can see both sides of theargument.

Zeta Kai
2007-02-25, 03:45 AM
Sorry, I had a table for all of that, but I can't make table to save my life. And it's true, a straight +/-2 to Move Silently based on size would mean that flies could sneak past nearly everything (including other flies, pixies, & fly-eating frogs), whereas Dragons couldn't sneak their way out of a paper bag. The original proposal simply seeks to place common sense into a game where people can murder other people with different racial traits & learn some valuable skills from doing so.

Demented
2007-02-25, 04:14 AM
Tables R EZ!

{table=head]Size |
_Fine_ |
Dimin. |
_Tiny_ |
_Small_ |
Medium |
_Large_ |
_Huge_ |
Gargant. |
Colossal

Fine |
+0 |
+2 |
+4 |
+6 |
+8 |
+10 |
+12 |
+14 |
+16

Diminutive |
-2 |
+0 |
+2 |
+4 |
+6 |
+8 |
+10 |
+12 |
+14

Tiny |
-4 |
-2 |
+0 |
+2 |
+4 |
+6 |
+8 |
+10 |
+12

Small |
-6 |
-4 |
-2 |
+0 |
+2 |
+4 |
+6 |
+8 |
+10

Medium |
-8 |
-6 |
-4 |
-2 |
+0 |
+2 |
+4 |
+6 |
+8

Large |
-10 |
-8 |
-6 |
-4 |
-2 |
+0 |
+2 |
+4 |
+6

Huge |
-12 |
-10 |
-8 |
-6 |
-4 |
-2 |
+0 |
+2 |
+4

Gargantuan |
-14 |
-12 |
-10 |
-8 |
-6 |
-4 |
-2 |
+0 |
+2

Colossal |
-16 |
-14 |
-12 |
-10 |
-8 |
-6 |
-4 |
-2 |
+0 [/table]

Maybe creatures should get bonuses to both listen and move silently as they get smaller. I.e. a Pixie with +8 to listen would be equal with another Pixie with +8 to move silently, but have a +16 advantage over a Tarrasque with -8 to move silently. And it's easier on the table.

Peregrine
2007-02-25, 10:37 AM
With a straight +/- 4 based on size, this analogy would not be true. I can see both sides of theargument.

The justification would be that a creature makes the same amount of noise no matter who is listening.* A pixie approaching another pixie makes the same amount of sound as it does approaching a great wyrm, all things (including distance) being equal.

The difference, and the reason why pixies are able to ever hear each other, is that pixie conversational distance is much smaller than great wyrm conversational distance. A pixie five feet away is as audible to another pixie as it is to a great wyrm; but for the pixies, that's the size of a room in a pixie house, whereas it's much smaller to the great wyrm.

A counterargument would be that little pixie ears are more sensitive, but I don't think it would be that significant a change. And the system is much simpler if we just make it relative to Medium, not relative to the listener.

* But if a tree falls in the woods, etc.? :smalltongue:

Zeta Kai
2007-02-25, 11:54 AM
Great table, Demented. It's different than the one that I had originally made in Excel, but it's well-made, & to-the-point. I must, however, disagree with your suggestion to alter the rule. There's a perfectly good reason that I wrote this rule the way I did. Here's a couple of examples, to make my point clear:

Example #1:
An orc rogue, Piggy McJerk, is trying to sneak up on the elven wizard, Airy O'Fairy. Airy happens to have her familiar, Rat-Breath, by her side. Piggy the orc is the same size as Airy the Elf (they are both Medium), so Airy gets a Listen bonus of +0; Airy might be in trouble. Rat-Breath, on the other hand, is Tiny (which is 2 sizes smaller than Piggy), so RB gets a Listen bonus of +4. All of a sudden, Piggy's in trouble. Odds are, Rat-Breath hears Piggy sneaking up on them, even though Airy heard nothing.

Example #2:
Piggy the Orc, having barely survived his run-in with an elven wizard (and not learning his lesson), is now trying to sneak-up on a great wyrm black dragon, Swamprot (Gargantuan). Unknown to Piggy, Swamprot has taken a troll, Hulky, as a slave. Piggy the orc (who is still Medium) is 3 sizes smaller than the wyrm, so Swamprot gets a Listen penalty of -6; unless Swamprot has Listen ranks &/or a high wisdom, he's not keeping all of his horde. Hulky, though, is merely Large, so he only gets a Listen penalty of -2. Although Hulky probably has a low Wisdom score (he is still a troll), & he might not raise too much of a fuss if the enslaving dragon gets robbed, he has much better odds of hearing Piggy sneaking in.

These two examples illustrate my design choices. First, the modifier is ALWAYS being placed on the opposed Listen check, & NEVER on the Move Silently check. The modifier is dependent on the relative size difference between the sneakER & the sneakEE, as it were; this wouldn't be possible if the Move Silently check of the sneaker were adjusted as well. This makes the rule useful for adjudicating group maneuvers. Second, why adjust two modifiers, when we can just manipulate one, getting the same result? You can change both Listen & Move Silently modifiers on the fly if you want. Knock yourself out. I, as a DM though, have many more responsibilities: I have to motivate the players, maintain a compelling & believable story, & get ready for what would most likely be an impending combat scenario. I just don't have time make the rules even more complex unless I have good reason for doing so.

That being said, however, I must not that the "good reason for doing so" is probably why most of us are here on this forum in the first place.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-25, 02:02 PM
Doesn't size usually affect Dexterity? Most dragons don't have a dex higher than 10 or 12.
I guess the idea of size modifier is because a larger body is supposed to make sounds, like a character in armor? A dragon's wings will make wooshing sounds as he moves, and his walking will make hard sounds everytime he puts his feet down.

Demented
2007-02-25, 05:12 PM
Then butterflies would need 22 dexterity. =P

Actually, some butterflies can be pretty noisy at 5 feet. Flap flap flap flap. Pretty much inaudible at 10 feet, of course.


I must, however, disagree with your suggestion to alter the rule. There's a perfectly good reason that I wrote this rule the way I did. Here's a couple of examples, to make my point clear:

Take note: My suggestion functions identically.
Piggy gets a +0 on his MS and Listen, as does Airy, RB gets a +2, Swamprot gets a -6, Hulky gets a -2.

Even if you have creatures with different size penalties...
A Tiny creature (+4) sneaking up on a Huge creature (-4) has a +8 total advantage in the opposed check. The difference is 4 size categories in favor of the intruder, which by your method means a -8 penalty to the Huge creature's, again giving the intruder a +8 advantage on the opposed check.

Having a bonus/penalty on both sides of each check probably is redundant and causes more strife than it must, but on the up-side, you can make a simple table where you can look up the values, and it's not more complicated than the already present Size modifiers to grapple.


{table=head]Size | Size Bonus to Listen/Move Silently

Fine | +8

Diminutive | +6

Tiny | +4

Small | +2

Medium | +0

Large | -2

Huge | -4

Gargantuan | -6

Colossal | -8
[/table]

Alternatively, one could go with Peregrine's reasoning and use the same approach as used for Hide in penalizing Move Silently. Can a cat really hear a mouse better than a dog?

Zeta Kai
2007-02-25, 06:20 PM
I agree; now that your explained it again, your mechanic does make sense, & it uses a simpler table, although I'm still wary of modifying two skills instead of one. But to each his own, this is homebrew, after all.

As far as a cat hearing a mouse better than a dog, I don't see this rule been useful for debating whether a specific creature could/couldn't Move Silently past another. This only states that a creature the size of a cat can hear a creature the size of a mouse better than a creature the size of a dog. That is all. Specific creatures should have their own skills/modifiers.

Peregrine
2007-02-26, 11:06 AM
I agree; now that your explained it again, your mechanic does make sense, & it uses a simpler table, although I'm still wary of modifying two skills instead of one. But to each his own, this is homebrew, after all.

I think it makes more sense, if you want relative size difference to be the criterion, to alter both. Otherwise you'd have to have separate Move Silently checks for every size category of creature that might hear you. Make one Move Silently check, then all listeners have to beat the same opposed check. (Compare to combat modifiers: creatures get size modifiers to both AC and and attack rolls.)

But I do see your point on modifying two skills -- or at least, I have my own hunch on why this is bad: Side effects. Not only are you better (or worse) at hearing smaller creatures sneak around, you're better (or worse) at hearing everything else, too.

Which is why I'm sticking with my take on the situation. :smallsmile: Each to his own.


As far as a cat hearing a mouse better than a dog, I don't see this rule been useful for debating whether a specific creature could/couldn't Move Silently past another. This only states that a creature the size of a cat can hear a creature the size of a mouse better than a creature the size of a dog. That is all. Specific creatures should have their own skills/modifiers.

I think Demented was meaning exactly what you said, except that the dog and cat were meant as familiar examples of Small and Tiny creatures (respectively), to place the argument about size differences in context. What skills the two creatures would have is, as you say, not relevant to this debate.

Let me try and clarify further. A human ten feet from another human is roughly two human body lengths from them. A pixie ten feet from another pixie is four pixie body lengths away.

Now say that human A and pixie A are next to each other, and human B and pixie B are ten feet away sneaking around. Why should pixie A be better than human A at hearing human B moving? But both of them find human B easier to hear than pixie B, because pixies get a size bonus.

Now, pixie B moves to five feet away from pixie B, or two body lengths away. Now, the pixies should be able to hear each other just as easily as the humans can hear each other, because they're relatively just as close.

Basically: The listener's size doesn't matter. The relative distance between the listener and the mover does. So the modification for the mover's size should be relative to distance, not to the listener's size.

Now that I've hopefully clarified (yeah right :smallannoyed:) my position a bit, let me ruin that clarity by doing some analysis with the intention of coming up with good size modifiers to Move Silently.

Listen DCs increase by +1 per 10ft of distance. This is a problem, because sizes roughly halve or double per size category, whereas distance modifiers increase linearly. Two humans at 10ft (+1 Listen DC, no Move Silently modifier) should hear each other as easily as two giants at 20ft (+2 Listen DC, so you'd expect a -1 size modifier to Move Silently). But then two humans at 20ft (+2) and two giants at 40ft (+4) to have the same ease as well, but that implies a -2 size modifier!

Basically we have to normalise the modifiers to a certain distance; closer than this, the creature will be easier to hear than they should be; further than this, they will be harder to hear that expected. (The alternative is changing the Listen rules... +1 for the first 10ft, +2 for the next, +4 for the next...)

Let's settle on -2 for Large, +2 for Small, to start with. Large creatures at 50ft, or small ones at 10ft, hear each other moving as easily as humans hear each other at 30ft. We were expecting 40ft and 15ft, not 50ft and 10ft, so this is worse for the giants and better for the pixies.

And I need to get to bed, so I'm going to drop this now...

Orzel
2007-02-26, 11:27 AM
Doesn't make sense to me. Detection is based on the size of the effect when it reaches the sensory organ and the sensetivity of the organ. The size of the organ doesn't matter unless it affect the sensetivity like an elf ear.

An giant, a halfling, and an human standing together all hear the sound of a sneaking dragon at the same strength. Who ignores it is based on the roll.

Peregrine
2007-02-26, 11:47 AM
An giant, a halfling, and an human standing together all hear the sound of a sneaking dragon at the same strength. Who ignores it is based on the roll.

I take it you're responding to Demented's suggestion of a Listen modifier based on size? I agree; what you said is basically the reasoning behind my own suggested rule. Except I got bogged down in details in the hopes of coming out with some numbers, and failing.

(For those paying that much attention, yes, I did say I was going to bed, and no, I haven't yet.)

Matthew
2007-02-27, 06:03 PM
I am on board with the view that suggests the larger a Character is the harder, in general, it is for them to Move Silently. I would just make it an analogue to the size modifier for Hide in Racial Templates.