Creating an interesting bard

[dascarletm]

Hello Playground.

A friend of mine recently challenged me to show him a bard that was interesting/fun to play, and I am requesting some help since bards arn't my forte.

This stemmed from my friend's claim that bards are one of the most boring classes in combat. He stated that all they do is sit there and sing. I told him that the bard has spells that give him a variety of combat choices.

However, he scoffed saying that bard casting is weak, and too limited.

So, I'm looking for an interesting bard build (it doesn't have to focus on spellcasting, and should be viable along a spectrum of levels) that will be useful, and interesting in combat.

Anyone who takes on the task I thank you ahead of time.

Oh, and one last note, preferably the character will get the majority of his abilities from the bard chassis, otherwise it's not really the bard that is interesting is it. (also 3.5)

[Kazudo]

Taking Melodic Casting and Battle Dancer (the feat, not the class) as well as a dip or so in Scout and Swashbuckler gives you a ballroom dancing, courage inspiring, healing (assuming you take the Healing Hymn ACF because Fascinate isn't that good and, while you're at it, also slap Divine Bard on there and Spell Focus (Conjuration) and you're a pretty good support character who can kinda hold their own in combat as long as you're constantly moving.

[The Glyphstone]

First idea is to pick a bard who doesn't use Perform (Sing).

Fireblood Dwarf Bard with Perform (Drum). Wears a set of heavy-duty drums around his waist, and carries a pair of 'drumsticks', one of which is big enough to count as a Heavy Mace. Since Bardic Music is a free action to maintain once started, his can keep up his beat while wading into battle and playing a refrain on his enemies' skulls.

Spend a feat for Dragonfire Inspiration, and your mace (and the weapons of all your friends) are on fire (or ice, or sonic, or whatever) as well. This is mildly less optimal than a Human Bard would, since you're taking a -2 Charisma penalty to your spellcasting...but you get +2 Con for extra HP, and it's definitely got style. Most other Bardic ACFs and PO tricks can be used on this chassis, albeit one feat behind relative to Silverbrow Human, but at the core you remain a heavy-metal-rocker dwarf drummer of doom.

[Firechanter]

Bardsader works just swell - i.e. Bard/Crusader with Song of White Raven. Normally, you make that mainly a Crusader with 4 levels of Bard, but I suppose you could also swap that around and make a Bard with a few dip levels in Crusader. For instance, Bard 6 / Crs 2 allows you to take Thicket of Blades.

At first your armour will be limited, but you might consider the Battle Caster feat and combine with Mithral Full Plate (which becomes affordable around level 9ish).

[Flashy]

1. Glossolalia + Expeditious Retreat + Hideous laughter gives you the ability to pretty much wreck any caster that appears anywhere on the battlefield.

2. Don't do a melee bard. Either spend a feat on longbow proficiency or just use a shortbow, and then take a prestige class that lets you exploit that. Bard is actually pretty friendly to Arcane Archer, but my personal favorite is a 10/10 split between bard and dragon disciple. You wind up at level 20 as a flying archer using a composite bow at an absurd strength bonus, you have a reasonable damage breath weapon, decent AC, a sizable number of spells per day and access to greater invisibility (assuming you qualified for the bonus spell slot, which isn't hard).

3. It's actually pretty true that in a high op party bards often aren't going to be the most useful or interesting people in combat. But who cares? Bards are by far the most fun class to play outside of combat. They're adventure having, npc convincing, skill check passing machines. Bards aren't really about combat, they're about being able to interact with the world to a vastly greater extent than pretty much any other class in the game. I mean hell, a number of their music based class features flat out don't work if combat is so much as threatened but still remain incredibly useful (mass suggestion, etc).

[xroads]

This guide might help:

Treantmonk's Guide to Pathfinder Bards (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/test2)

[dascarletm]

First idea is to pick a bard who doesn't use Perform (Sing).

Fireblood Dwarf Bard with Perform (Drum). Wears a set of heavy-duty drums around his waist, and carries a pair of 'drumsticks', one of which is big enough to count as a Heavy Mace. Since Bardic Music is a free action to maintain once started, his can keep up his beat while wading into battle and playing a refrain on his enemies' skulls.

Spend a feat for Dragonfire Inspiration, and your mace (and the weapons of all your friends) are on fire (or ice, or sonic, or whatever) as well. This is mildly less optimal than a Human Bard would, since you're taking a -2 Charisma penalty to your spellcasting...but you get +2 Con for extra HP, and it's definitely got style. Most other Bardic ACFs and PO tricks can be used on this chassis, albeit one feat behind relative to Silverbrow Human, but at the core you remain a heavy-metal-rocker dwarf drummer of doom.

now that's what I call style.

What spells in particular would you suggest on this?

[The Glyphstone]

now that's what I call style.

What spells in particular would you suggest on this?

General good Bard spells, and Bards have lots of them - it's a spell-neutral build. Charm Person, Grease, Glitterdust, Heroism, Haste are all solid core buffs/debuffs. For non-core spells, the spell list posted immediately below this one is a good guide to follow.

[Piggy Knowles]

Straightforward (but effective) bard archer that relies solely on the bard chassis:


Savage Singer

BUILD STUB: Silverbrow Human, Savage Bard 20
ACFs: Bardic Knack, Music of Creation

PROGRESSION:
Spoiler
Hide

1- Dragonfire Inspiration, Point Blank Shot
3- Knowledge Devotion
6- Rapid Shot, Song of the Heart
9- Precise Shot
12- Words of Creation
15- Woodland Archer
18- Improved Precise Shot

Spells Known:
1- Inspirational Boost, Improvisation, Silent Image, Grease, Swift Invisibility
2- Alter Self, Glitterdust, Pass Without Trace, Sonorous Hum, Harmonize
3- Haste, Dispel Magic*, Glibness, Alter Fortune, Charm Monster
4- Dimension Door, Summon Nature’s Ally IV, Shadow Conjuration, Celerity, Ruin Delver’s Fortune
5- Commune With Nature, Greater Blink, Greater Dispel Magic, Mislead, Shadow Walk
6- Superior Resistance, Find the Path, Reincarnate, Greater Scrying

*Retrain to Slow when Greater Dispel is taken.


I decided I ought to have at least one standard bard archer (barcher? archard?) here. This is nothing fancy - just a fairly straightforward IC build, with an archery focus. Bardic Knack + Knowledge Devotion is a nice little damage boost across the board, and with regular Inspire Courage, DFI, Knowledge Devotion and haste, it should actually be putting out pretty solid numbers.

My original version of this build was more of a tracker, and involved a rat familiar with Stealthy PsyRef’d out for Track. But I decided I wanted to make this build as straightforward as possible, and so went this way.

[Coidzor]

If you don't go ranged, a Crystal Echoblade can be rather nice for a Bard 20. A Harmonizing weapon works if you don't want to "twist" songs by starting one and then starting a different one so that you and your allies benefit from both songs at the same time and you want to be able to cast without taking Melodic Casting to be able to have bardic music up and cast at the same time.

A vest of legends and badge of valor are essential equipment for your Inspire Courage bonus which bolsters you and your side, especially if you or any of your allies bust out the summoning.

[eggynack]

General good Bard spells, and Bards have lots of them - it's a spell-neutral build. Charm Person, Grease, Glitterdust, Heroism, Haste are all solid core buffs/debuffs. For non-core spells, the spell list posted immediately below this one is a good guide to follow.
Don't forget alter self and glibness. Those are pretty important. Also notable as a non-buff/debuff is silent image, cause that spell does everything.

[Pan151]

Here's how you make a memorable bard.

First, you make him a Gold Dwarf. You then proceed to take a single level of Barbarian, before you continue with the Savage bard variant class. You take Armored Caster, so that you can cast in Mithral Platemail. You find a way to install strings on your greataxe, so that it can be used as a functional guitar. You make sure that he's drunk 24/7.

Bonus points if you can get somewhere in his backstory that he used to be part of a Dwarven band called "Mithral Maiden" or "Moradin Priest".

PS. I was gonna suggest the Ragemage PrC, but slapping 5/10 caster progression on the bard's already poor progression would just be cruel.

[Mutazoia]

Hello Playground.

A friend of mine recently challenged me to show him a bard that was interesting/fun to play, and I am requesting some help since bards arn't my forte.

This stemmed from my friend's claim that bards are one of the most boring classes in combat. He stated that all they do is sit there and sing. I told him that the bard has spells that give him a variety of combat choices.

However, he scoffed saying that bard casting is weak, and too limited.

So, I'm looking for an interesting bard build (it doesn't have to focus on spellcasting, and should be viable along a spectrum of levels) that will be useful, and interesting in combat.

Anyone who takes on the task I thank you ahead of time.

Oh, and one last note, preferably the character will get the majority of his abilities from the bard chassis, otherwise it's not really the bard that is interesting is it. (also 3.5)

First off...Bard's are not meant to be front line fighters. They are combat/fire support. They can do some back up healing if the healer goes down but their main forte are cunning and dirty tricks. You wouldn't stick your thief up front next to the Barbarian...why would you want to do so with your bard? Basically Bard's seem uninteresting or useless in combat to those that tend to play the heavy-hitting melee characters, or the fry-them-in-an-instant DPS casters. To truly make a bard come to life and rock, you have to have a sense of humor....the more sadistic the better. You have to be able to think "outside the box" to play a good bard. So let's take a look at a few points about the bard (using only 3.5 core at the moment):

1. Perform (sing) is actually great...as it leaves both hands free for weapon use...naturally using "silent spell" will allow you to keep singing and still throw out the occasional spell, but honestly the hit bonus from a bard's spell is only really useful at lower levels. Eventually you party will have enough magic gear that the small bump from the bard's song is almost moot. so you'll want to do away with it eventually. He can still help with boni to skill checks out of combat though. (the Drum idea is nice...but drums echo in dungeon hall ways making stealth a bit harder, where as a bard's singing can be done at a whisper as long as the intended target can still hear it.)

2. Mages focus on DPS, clerics on healing, but Battle Field Control is where the Bard shines. Even 1st level spells like Cause Fear can set a pack of enemies on their heels (making casting impossible), Grease will cause opponents to make dex checks and make large areas nearly impassible (especially on inclines), Sleep, Tasha's Hideous Laughter...Summon Monster to increase your party's effective fighting force....you get the point, I'm sure. In combat, the Bard is all about f'ing with his foes to no end. When it comes to casting, the Bard may not be able to match the raw damage output of the other casters, but he can be unmatched when it come to throwing the proverbial monkey wrench into the enemy's (DM's) battle plan. If your the type that can find a loop hole or omission in the wording of a spell and turn that into an un-expected outcome in your favor, you should have no problem playing an effective bard.

3. Reach out and touch some one! Honestly, like a sorcerer, a Bard shouldn't be in Melee unless he has no other choice. In combat, spells and a good bow should be his weapons of choice. Sure...you can take a PRC from a splat and deck him out in feats from a splat and make him a passable melee fighter, but you really shouldn't. There are other classes better suited to be meat shields. Bards should fight at range when ever possible, or be moving around and setting up flanking boni for the heavy hitters if he must engage in melee. A Bard fights smarter, not harder. Use a bow and stay out of the way...Which brings us to....

4. Arcane Archer + Bard = Winning! Imbue Arrow with Spell Ability totally rocks for a Bard. Extend the range of your spells to within bow shot. Combine that with sound burst (find a monster in the book that has Sonic resistance...If you can) or with hold monster to set up that nice great cleave chance for the Barbar. Use a blunt arrow and imbue it with a healing spell to heal an ally (or F up certain types of undead) at range. Case in point: Once in a game our party opened a door to find a hallway lined with mirrors on both sides. We saw the obvious scenario...we were suppose to get half way down the hall and the mirrors would break releasing what ever was trapped in side. Our Bard (me, naturally) imbued an arrow with sound burst and fired it at a mirror half way down (and had the Cleric slam the door). The arrow hit, shattering the mirror, the sound burst went off and shattered the other mirrors. The end result is that all the trapped creatures were freed and turned on each other. When the noise died down we went in and mopped up the remaining monster (which was almost dead by then).

5. Utility. Bards are the Swiss Army Knife of the party. They can take some of the more useful utilitarian spells leaving the DPS focused casters free to use spell slots they would normally have to sacrifice to pack more magical OOMPH into their day. If the Bard and the Wizard (or Sorcerer) put their heads together and work out who's going to take what spell you can extend the capability and effectiveness of both characters.

6. Nothing up my sleeve... A good Bard will always have a trick or two up his sleeve. My Bards always carry around a bag of 1000 marbles. Good for use as a poor man's Grease spell, emergency sling ammo, useful for using as foci for any illusionary trickery (say...make one look like a diamond to bribe the stupid), setting up mundane alarm systems (rig a simple trip wire to spill the bag onto a tin plate when tripped), sapping a unwary guard or simply playing a game of marbles when your bored. A good bard can find alternate uses for nearly any item, in or out of combat.

6. Non combat is where it's at! The Bard is (or should be) the party's face-man. . Campaigns are not all carving your way through a sea of monsters 24/7... He should be the one selling the party loot, buying supplies, looking for information, etc. Sure...that might not seem as glamorous as scoring 5 Great Cleave attacks in a row, or burning a troll to a crisp in a millisecond, but a wise man once said "An army runs on it's stomach" and the Bard is in charge of keeping the party's stomachs full (and their coin purses).


In short, if your friend only relates "interesting in combat" to "does a crap load of damage in combat" then yes...he's correct, he's never going to have fun as a Bard because Bards are not the high DPS factories that the front line melee or combat casters are. The interesting thing about the Bard, both in and out of combat is being able to set up the rest of your party so they can crank out more DPS, or get them out of a jam they didn't plan for....or to simply tick off your enemy so bad they make a mistake.

[eggynack]

First off...Bard's are not meant to be front line fighters. They are combat/fire support. They can do some back up healing if the healer goes down but their main forte are cunning and dirty tricks.
It's really kinda the opposite of this. Bards make pretty reasonable fighters, if you build that way, and they should heal as much as anyone should, which means only using wands out of combat. They don't get to freely use lesser vigor wands though, so that's kinda annoying. Still, point is, tons of reasonable melee bards listed in this thread. They score a 2 in the niche ranking system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314701-Person_Man-s-Niche-Ranking-System) for a reason. That puts them at the same level as a fighter or barbarian, incidentally.



2. Mages focus on DPS, clerics on healing, but Battle Field Control is where the Bard shines. Even 1st level spells like Cause Fear can set a pack of enemies on their heels (making casting impossible), Grease will cause opponents to make dex checks and make large areas nearly impassible (especially on inclines), Sleep, Tasha's Hideous Laughter...Summon Monster to increase your party's effective fighting force....you get the point, I'm sure. In combat, the Bard is all about f'ing with his foes to no end. When it comes to casting, the Bard may not be able to match the raw damage output of the other casters, but he can be unmatched when it come to throwing the proverbial monkey wrench into the enemy's (DM's) battle plan. If your the type that can find a loop hole or omission in the wording of a spell and turn that into an un-expected outcome in your favor, you should have no problem playing an effective bard.
This is kinda the stuff that most full casters, wizards included, should be doing with their spells, rather than something like "raw damage output". The same goes for clerics and healing. However, the main point of the comment here is to point out that sleep and cause fear aren't the best options on a bard, with summon monster suffering in a different way. In particular, the HD limit combined with the spells known system means that you end up saddled with a bunch of useless spells if you pick stuff like that. As for summon monster, it's decent for utility, but the combat viability of these creatures is incredibly closely linked to level, so it's not the best to use them on a slow caster.




4. Arcane Archer + Bard = Winning! Imbue Arrow with Spell Ability totally rocks for a Bard.
This just seems like a bad idea. Caster level is important, even on a bard. Actually, make that especially on a bard. They pick up spell levels slow enough already. It doesn't help that this eats up always useful bard feat slots.

Edit: Also, cause fear doesn't stop casting. It does focus it on ideal escape plans, to be fair, but it definitely doesn't stop it.

[mr_odd]

1. Perform (sing) is actually great...as it leaves both hands free for weapon use...naturally using "silent spell" will allow you to keep singing and still throw out the occasional spell, but honestly the hit bonus from a bard's spell is only really useful at lower levels. Eventually you party will have enough magic gear that the small bump from the bard's song is almost moot. so you'll want to do away with it eventually. He can still help with boni to skill checks out of combat though. (the Drum idea is nice...but drums echo in dungeon hall ways making stealth a bit harder, where as a bard's singing can be done at a whisper as long as the intended target can still hear it.)


Bards cannot take silent spell.

[Piggy Knowles]

Melodic Casting is better than Silent Spell anyhow if your goal is to sing and cast simultaneously; it doesn't give a +1 adjustment to all your spells, nor does it turn them into full round casting times.


(snipped quote about Arcane Archer)

This just seems like a bad idea. Caster level is important, even on a bard. Actually, make that especially on a bard. They pick up spell levels slow enough already. It doesn't help that this eats up always useful bard feat slots.

On a straight bard, probably not, but Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 10 is pretty nice. (Replace those last 8 levels with the full casting progression of your choice, natch.)

[Coidzor]

1. Perform (sing) is actually great...as it leaves both hands free for weapon use...naturally using "silent spell" will allow you to keep singing and still throw out the occasional spell, but honestly the hit bonus from a bard's spell is only really useful at lower levels. Eventually you party will have enough magic gear that the small bump from the bard's song is almost moot. so you'll want to do away with it eventually. He can still help with boni to skill checks out of combat though. (the Drum idea is nice...but drums echo in dungeon hall ways making stealth a bit harder, where as a bard's singing can be done at a whisper as long as the intended target can still hear it.)

Sing, Oratory, Acting...


2. Mages focus on DPS, clerics on healing, but Battle Field Control is where the Bard shines. Even 1st level spells like Cause Fear can set a pack of enemies on their heels (making casting impossible), Grease will cause opponents to make dex checks and make large areas nearly impassible (especially on inclines), Sleep, Tasha's Hideous Laughter...Summon Monster to increase your party's effective fighting force....you get the point, I'm sure. In combat, the Bard is all about f'ing with his foes to no end. When it comes to casting, the Bard may not be able to match the raw damage output of the other casters, but he can be unmatched when it come to throwing the proverbial monkey wrench into the enemy's (DM's) battle plan. If your the type that can find a loop hole or omission in the wording of a spell and turn that into an un-expected outcome in your favor, you should have no problem playing an effective bard.

Are you having us on? Wizards as blasters? Clerics as healing gimps? :smalltongue:


4. Arcane Archer + Bard = Winning! Imbue Arrow with Spell Ability totally rocks for a Bard. Extend the range of your spells to within bow shot. Combine that with sound burst (find a monster in the book that has Sonic resistance...If you can) or with hold monster to set up that nice great cleave chance for the Barbar. Use a blunt arrow and imbue it with a healing spell to heal an ally (or F up certain types of undead) at range. Case in point: Once in a game our party opened a door to find a hallway lined with mirrors on both sides. We saw the obvious scenario...we were suppose to get half way down the hall and the mirrors would break releasing what ever was trapped in side. Our Bard (me, naturally) imbued an arrow with sound burst and fired it at a mirror half way down (and had the Cleric slam the door). The arrow hit, shattering the mirror, the sound burst went off and shattered the other mirrors. The end result is that all the trapped creatures were freed and turned on each other. When the noise died down we went in and mopped up the remaining monster (which was almost dead by then).

Only if you're cribbing from Pathfinder and Arcane Archer actually progresses casting to any extent.


In short, if your friend only relates "interesting in combat" to "does a crap load of damage in combat" then yes...he's correct, he's never going to have fun as a Bard because Bards are not the high DPS factories that the front line melee or combat casters are. The interesting thing about the Bard, both in and out of combat is being able to set up the rest of your party so they can crank out more DPS, or get them out of a jam they didn't plan for....or to simply tick off your enemy so bad they make a mistake.

No, he's still wrong, but he's going to have to be shown Warblades, Crusaders, Swordsages, and maybe Binders rather than Bards.

[weckar]

Make a bard that uses a non-standard perform skill, like comedy...

[dascarletm]

In short, if your friend only relates "interesting in combat" to "does a crap load of damage in combat" then yes...he's correct, he's never going to have fun as a Bard because Bards are not the high DPS factories that the front line melee or combat casters are. The interesting thing about the Bard, both in and out of combat is being able to set up the rest of your party so they can crank out more DPS, or get them out of a jam they didn't plan for....or to simply tick off your enemy so bad they make a mistake.

I'm sorry if my first post wasn't clear.

My friend was under the impression that the bard is lack luster due to a lack of interesting options in combat. He finds the bardic music terribly boring (though I think he mentally is picturing a lute or something that must use actions to keep going).

The spells are lack luster, and are done better by other classes.

He sees it this way:

If you focus the bard towards one thing (ranged combat, melee combat, battlefield control) you've gimped your other aspects, and can't really use those. You become like a more focused class, yet worse at their job.

If you try to maintain your flexibility, you won't do anything meaningful in combat. Need BFC? Let the wizard do it he's better. Need someone to hold that doorway? Let the crusader do it he's better. He understands that there can be times when you'd need two people to do these things instead of one, but that seems to be the exception rather than the norm.

[nedz]

A lot of it depends upon the sort of game you play. If you are playing a kick in the door style game then Bards will not shine, but if you have lots of NPC interactions then Bards are one of the best classes.

What sort of Bard do you want ?

Melee
Missile/Support caster
Casterly Bard
Party Face
Skill Monkey


We can do all of these, and more.

[dascarletm]

A lot of it depends upon the sort of game you play. If you are playing a kick in the door style game then Bards will not shine, but if you have lots of NPC interactions then Bards are one of the best classes.

What sort of Bard do you want ?

Melee
Missile/Support caster
Casterly Bard
Party Face
Skill Monkey


We can do all of these, and more.

We play a fair mix of combat, and non-combat. The issue isn't outside of combat, it's inside combat. My good friends wants a bard that pulls his weight in combat in a way outside of "I play my lute for another round giving the party +X Bonus:smallsigh:" (almost verbatim his words) See above for his views on focusing the bard's role.

[eggynack]

On a straight bard, probably not, but Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 10 is pretty nice. (Replace those last 8 levels with the full casting progression of your choice, natch.)
Very true. I'd probably rather do something else with those levels, because imbue arrow is only reasonable rather than great, but this path is probably fine.


The spells are lack luster, and are done better by other classes.
Done better by other classes, sure. Lackluster, definitely not. Bard spells, on their own, is enough to propel bards to the very heights of tier 3. They may be slow in progression, but the list is thoroughly excellent, with gems at every level.


If you focus the bard towards one thing (ranged combat, melee combat, battlefield control) you've gimped your other aspects, and can't really use those. You become like a more focused class, yet worse at their job.

If you try to maintain your flexibility, you won't do anything meaningful in combat. Need BFC? Let the wizard do it he's better. Need someone to hold that doorway? Let the crusader do it he's better. He understands that there can be times when you'd need two people to do these things instead of one, but that seems to be the exception rather than the norm.
Working towards melee combat doesn't hurt your casting ability much at all, and neither significantly impacts your capacity to skill monkey. Yes, a wizard is going to be a better caster, because a wizard is always a better caster, and a crusader is going to be a better fighter, because it's nearly always that, but bard isn't insanely far behind. As for needing more than one character for stuff, I don't see how that could possibly be the exception. In nearly any situation where a single beatstick would be good, a second beatstick who also buffs the team would be better. In nearly any situation where one guy is tossing BFC's and debuffs, two would be better. Bards are jacks of all trades, but more than that, they're really quite good at their trades. Just working out a good spell list is enough to make an effective character, and doing other stuff is enough to make a very effective character.

[Bluydee]

Perform can be used for more than spells. Go Perform (Act). Pretend to be Inigo Montoya. Profit.