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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class Chopping Down the Christmas Tree: Low-Magic-Item Rules



Grod_The_Giant
2014-06-20, 11:17 AM
One of, arguably the worst aspects of 3.5 is how dependent characters are on magic items. A few rare builds aside, every character winds up walking around with one or more kingdoms' worth of glowing bling dangling from their bodies. From grizzled warriors to scented dandies, from greedy wizards to kindly monks. Everyone. We hate it. We especially hate how many of those items are just making your numbers bigger. But it's not just a matter of getting rid of that wealth-- the game is balanced around having those items. And the game's inbuilt solution, Vow of Poverty, is even worse. What's a man to do?

This.


Variant Rules: Low-Magic Item Campaigns

Level-Up Bonuses
Starred (*) columns only apply to class levels.

Feats: At first level, third level, and every subsequent third level, characters gain one feat of their choice. They may also retrain one feat of their choice; however, they must have been able to qualify for the new feat at the time they gained the original. For example, a 6th level fighter could select Power Attack for his 3rd level feat in place of Combat Expertise; however, he could no select Weapon Specialization, as he would not have been able to meet the prerequisite of “4 fighter levels” at the time.


Variant- Downtime Retraining
At the DM's discretion, characters can retrain one feat during any period of extended downtime, when they are not otherwise occupied by traveling, adventuring, or other stressful pursuits. This should require at least a week of regular training to accomplish, and perhaps as much as a month.


*Competence Bonus: Characters gain a competence bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, armor class, saving throws, and initiative checks equal to one-third their class level, rounded down. If using a shield, double this bonus to armor class.

*Bonus Feats: At 4th level, and every subsequent 4th level, characters gain a bonus [Gift] or [Knack] feat of their choice.


Variant- Item-Based Gifts
You may choose to have a [Gift] feat tied to a specific item, such as a magic ring or amulet. You only gain the benefits of the feat when wearing the item, but when you are, you are considered to be one level higher. You're attuned to the item-- no-one else can benefit from it, and it has no particular worth to anyone else. "Un-attuning" is part of the normal process of retraining feats. For someone else to benefit from the item, they must gain the appropriate [Gift] feat. At any point, you may complete a 12-hour ritual to internalize the ability, removing the item dependency but losing the level bonus.

Ability Boosts: At 2nd level, and every subsequent even-numbered level, characters may increase one of their ability scores by two. This bonus may not be applied to the same ability score twice in a row. At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels, they increase all ability scores by one.

Advanced Techniques: All characters learn certain advanced fighting techniques as they increase in level:
Beginning at 6th level, attacks have a 50% chance to strike incorporeal or ethereal targets.
Beginning at 12th level, attacks have a 50% chance to bypass hardness and damage reduction.
Beginning at 18th level, attacks have a 50% chance of dealing lethal damage to creatures with regeneration.

Wealth By Level: Recommended WBL should be significantly reduced from what's listed in the DMG-- maybe 1/5 what the table says (at least for magic items).

Other Rules

Magic items that give permanent enhancement or resistance bonuses don't exist. (Items that gave them in addition to other abilities, such as unique weapons and armor, instead grant only the special abilities, and have prices adjusted accordingly)
Magic weapons and armor do not (and cannot) start with a +1 enhancement before applying special enhancement properties.
Spells such as magic weapon and magic fang that grant enhancement bonuses have their duration reduced to 1 round/level.
Class abilities that grant enhancement bonuses to weapons (Such as the soulknife's) instead grant special enhancement properties.
Vow of Poverty only grants the Exalted bonus to AC, Endure Elements, and Sustenance. All other benefits are redundant.



Table:


Level
Feats
Competence Bonus*
Bonus Feats*
Advanced Techniques
Ability Boosts


1
1st






2




1st


3
2nd
+1





4


1st

2nd


5




All +1


6
3rd
+2

Strike Insubstantial
3rd


7







8


2nd

4th


9
4th
+3





10




5th, All +1


11







12
5th
+4
3rd
Ignore DR
6th


13







14




7th


15
6th
+5


All +1


16


4th

8th


17







18
7th
+6

Bypass Regeneration
9th


19







20


5th

10th, All +1



New Feat Types: [Gift] and [Knack].
[Gift] and [Knack] feats are particularly powerful feats. They often represent not just normal training, but extraordinary, even supernatural powers and mutations. [Gift] feats are all Supernatural abilities, while [Knack] feats are all Extraordinary, unless otherwise mentioned.

[Gift] and [Knack] feats


Feat
Prerequisites
Type
Benefit


Aquatic Touch
Level 3
Knack
You gain a swim speed equal to your base land speed.


Ascetic Gift
Level 3
Gift
You no longer need food, drink, or sleep.


Fast as Thought
Level 3
Knack
Your base land speed increases.


Ghost Warrior
Level 3
Gift
Your weapons and armor gain the ghost touch property.


Hero's Courage
Level 3
Knack
You gain immunity to fear.


Quick to Act
Level 3
Knack
Gain an insight bonus to initiative checks equal to half your BAB.


Scale the Walls
Level 3
Knack
You gain a climb speed equal to your base land speed.


See the Shadow
Level 3
Gift
You can see perfectly even in pitch blackness.


Strong Back
Level 3
Knack
You may carry five times as much weight as normal without penalty.


Touch of Mercy
Level 3
Gift
Heal wounds with a touch.


Aquatic Embrace
Level 6, Aquatic Touch
Gift
You gain the ability to breathe underwater, and ignore penalties as though under the effects of a freedom of movement spell.


Cassandra's Heir
Level 6
Gift
You gain occasional glimpses of the future. (Omen of Peril, Divination, Foresight)


Conservative Caster
Level 6
Knack
Occasionally cast spells without expending .


Dwarven Delver
Level 6
Knack
You gain a burrow speed equal to your base land speed.


Energy Attunement
Level 6
Gift
You gain resistance to one energy type, and your weapons deal +1d6 energy damage.


Iron Gut
Level 6
Knack
You gain immunity to poisons, disease, and nausea


Knowledge Reservoir
Level 6
Gift
Turn any item into a virtual book.


Mystic Dabbler
Level 6
Gift
You may choose a single spell to cast as a spell-like ability several times per day.


Powerful Stature
Level 6
Knack
You count as one size category when beneficial.


Secret Reserve
Level 6
Gift
You're immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, zone of truth, and attempts to magically discern your alignment.


Slight Stature
Level 6
Knack
You count as one size category smaller when beneficial.


Unstoppable Mind
Level 6
Knack
You gain immunity to charm and compulsion effects.


Improved Fortitude
Level 6
Knack
Take no effect on a successful Fortitude save.


Improved Reflex
Level 6
Knack
You gain Evasion.


Improved Will
Level 6
Knack
Take no effect on a successful Will save.


Skill Mastery
Level 6, Skill Focus
Knack
When making skill checks, roll twice and take the better result.


Aerial Embrace
Level 9
Gift
You gain a fly speed equal to your base land speed.


Feel the Air
Level 9
Gift
You gain blindsense.


Feel the Earth
Level 9
Gift
You gain tremorsense.


Following Dark
Level 9
Gift
You gain concealment.


Giant Growth
Level 9
Gift
You may increase your size.


Hero's Resilience
Level 9
Knack
You gain damage reduction.


Hero's Vitality
Level 9
Gift
You gain fast healing.


Impervious Body
Level 9
Knack
You gain a chance to negate critical hits and sneak attacks.


Infinite Pocket
Level 9
Gift
You may access a small extradimensional space.


Metamagic Specialist
Level 9
Knack
You may freely apply metamagic to low-level spells a few times per day.


Perfect Step
Level 9, Scale the Walls
Gift
You may walk on any surface as though it were solid ground.


Prolific Caster
Level 9
Knack
You may cast twice as many low-level spells.


See the Unseen
Level 9
Gift
You may see invisible creatures and magic auras.


Speak to the World
Level 9
Gift
You may speak and understand all languages.


Sprite Shrinking
Level 9
Gift
You may decrease your size.


Temporary Genius
Level 9
Gift
Gain temporary access to another Gift or Knack


Trollslayer
Level 9
Knack
Your attacks disrupt regeneration and healing


Warp Step
Level 9
Gift
You can teleport short distances as a move action.


Borrow Form
Level 12
Gift
You may assume a single alternate form.


Energy Blessing
Level 12, Energy Attunement
Gift
You gain immunity to one energy type, and are healed when exposed to it.


Expanded Mind
Level 12
Gift
You gain telepathy.


Ethereal Instability
Level 12
Gift
You may flicker between the Material and Ethereal Planes.


Mystic Inspiration
Level 12
Knack
Cast different spells a few times per day.


True Sight
Level 12
Gift
Gain temporary true seeing at the cost of taking Wisdom damage.


Iron Defiance
Level 12
Knack
Take nonlethal damage instead of being dazed or stunned.


Know the Air
Level 12, Feel the Air
Gift
Your blindsense improves to blindsight.


Master of Defense
Level 12
Knack
Opponents have a miss chance when attempting to strike you.


Planar Step
Level 12, Warp Step
Gift
You may travel from plane to plane.


Will to Live
Level 12
Knack
Take nonlethal damage instead of death effects.


Burrowing Mind
Level 15, Expanded Mind
Gift
You may read thoughts and influence people using your telepathy.


Earthglide
Level 15, Dwarven Delver
Gift
You can swim through earth and stone like an earth elemental, and don't need to breathe while underground.


Endless Step
Level 15, Warp Step
Gift
You may teleport long distances a few times per day.


Hero's Immortality
Level 15, Hero's Vitality
Gift
You gain regeneration


Hidden Fate
Level 15
Gift
You become undetectable to divination spells.


Indomitable Will
Level 15
Gift
Take nonlethal damage instead of being affected by mind-affecting effects.



Aquatic Touch [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 3
Benefit: You gain a swim speed equal to your base land speed. This grants you a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. You can always can choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. You may use the run action while swimming, provided you swim in a straight line.

Ascetic Gift [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 3
Benefit: You do not need to eat, drink, or sleep. You still must rest for eight hours to prepare or regain spells, if applicable, although you may perform light duties such as reading or standing guard.

Fast as Thought [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 3
Benefit: You gain a five foot bonus to base land speed. At 6th level, and every subsequent third level, this bonus increases by five feet. (+10ft at 6th level, +15ft at 9th level, and so on).

Ghost Warrior[Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 3
Benefit: Any weapon you wield, including natural weapons and unarmed strikes, deals damage normally to incorporeal creatures. The bonuses from any armor or shield you wear, and any natural armor you possess, count against attacks by insubstantial creatures-- although attacks designated as touch attacks bypass these categories normally. You may also touch incorporeal creatures as though they were solid.

Hero’s Courage [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 3
Benefit: You gain immunity to fear, magical or otherwise.

Quick to Act [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 3
Benefit: You gain an insight bonus to initiative checks equal to one-half your base attack bonus.

Scale the Walls [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 3
Benefit: You gain a climb speed equal to your base land speed. This grants you a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. You must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC of more than 0, but you can always choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing. You retain your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus on their attacks against you while you climb.

See the Shadow [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 3
Benefit: You can see without penalty in all types of darkness, including magical darkness.

Strong Back [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 3
Benefit: You can carry five times as much as a creature with your Strength could normally carry. Multiply the values for light, medium, and heavy loads by five.

Touch of Mercy[Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 3
Benefit: As a standard action, you may grant one touched ally fast healing equal to their Constitution modifier for one minute. You may use this Gift once per day per class level.

Aquatic Embrace [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 6, Aquatic Touch
Benefit: You can breathe water freely, as though under the effects of a water breathing spell, and move and attack normally underwater, as though under the effects of a freedom of movement spell. You count as having the [Aquatic] subtype.

Cassandra’s Heir [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 6
Benefit: You have a small gift for prophecy. You may use Omen of Peril (Spell Compendium) as a spell-like ability three times per day, with a caster level equal to your character level. Beginning at 10th level, you may instead use Divination, and beginning at 15th level, you may use Foresight. All these spell-like abilities share the same pool of three daily uses.

Conservative Caster [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 6
Benefit: Whenever you cast a spell or manifest a power, you may choose to do so conservatively. If you do, there is a 10% chance that you do not have to pay for it. Spontaneous casters do not expend a spell slot, prepared casters do not expend the prepared spell, and manifesters do not expend power points. This feat may only provide a number of free spell or power levels per day equal to half your caster or manifester level, rounded up.

Dwarven Delver [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 6
Benefit: You gain a burrow speed equal to your base land speed. You can tunnel through dirt with your bare hands, or rock if using a tool whose hardness is greater than that of the stone you’re trying to dig through. You always leave a tunnel.

Energy Attunement [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 6
Benefit: You gain resistance to one type of energy (acid, cold, electricity, fire, force, or sonic) equal to twice your character level. In addition, any weapon you wield, including natural weapons and unarmed strikes, deals an additional 1d6 damage of the same energy type you have resistance to.

Iron Gut [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 6
Benefit: You gain immunity to poison, disease, and nausea.

Mystic Dabbler [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 6
Benefit: Pick a single cleric, druid, or sorcerer/wizard spell of a level equal to or less than one-third your character level (rounded down). You may use that spell as a spell-like ability three times per day, with a caster level equal to your character level, and a save DC of 10+1/2 your character level + your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier (your choice when you select the feat).
Special: Whenever you gain a new feat, you may select a different spell to use as a spell-like ability.

Knowledge Reservoir [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 6
Benefit: You may designate any item you possess as a Knowledge Reservoir. A Knowledge Reservoir is a sort of virtual book, containing 50 pages worth of knowledge per character level. Normally, only you can use your Knowledge Reservoir, although you can allow other characters to do so for a set amount of time. A Knowledge Reservoir has two functions:[/B]

You may fill pages with academic knowledge. For every 10 pages filled in this manner, you gain a +1 competence bonus to a single category of Knowledge checks, with a maximum bonus equal to your character level. You may make checks untrained if you have appropriate information in your Knowledge Reservoir. You must draw on an outside source, such as a library or another character, to do so. However, to gain access to the bonus, you must take a full-round access to search through the information contained therein.
You may fill pages with spells. When used this way, a Knowledge Reservoir works exactly like a spellbook, except that it only costs one-tenth the normal amount to scribe spells in a Knowledge Reservoir.

Special: You may take this feat multiple times, creating a new Knowledge Reservoir each time.

Powerful Statue [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 6
Benefit: You gain the Powerful Build special quality.
Whenever you’re subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), you’re treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to you. You’re also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect you. You can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, your space and reach remain those of a creature of your actual size. The benefits of this feat stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change your category. You also count as one size category larger when qualifying for feats, prestige classes, and so on.

Secret Reserve [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 6
Benefit: Your alignment cannot be detected by any form of divination, and you cannot be affected by Detect Thoughts, Discern Lies, Zone of Truth, or any effects based on those spells.

Skill Mastery [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 6, Skill Focus
Benefit: When making checks with the skill you have Skill Focus in, you may roll twice and take the better result.
Special: You may choose this feat multiple times, once for every skill you take Skill Focus in.
G&G Variant: If using Giants and Graveyards houserules, this feat instead grants an Insight bonus equal to one-half your character level, rounded down.

Slight Stature [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 6
Benefit: You gain the Slight Build special quality. Whenever you’re subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), you’re treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. You’re also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. You can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, your space and reach remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this feat stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category. You also count as one size category smaller when qualifying for feats, prestige classes, and so on.

Unstoppable Mind [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 6
Benefit: You gain immunity to Charm and Compulsion effects.

Improved Fortitude [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 6
Benefit: When you make a successful Fortitude saving throw against an effect that normally has a partial effect on a successful save, you instead take no effect.

Improved Reflex [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 6
Benefit: You gain the Evasion special ability. When you make a successful Reflex saving throw against an effect that normally has a partial effect on a successful save, you instead take no effect.

Improved Will [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 6
Benefit: When you make a successful Will saving throw against an effect that normally has a partial effect on a successful save, you instead take no effect.

Perfect Step [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 9, Scale the Walls
Benefit: You can walk on any tangible surface as though it were flat, solid ground— water, walls, ceilings, and so on, as though making a DC 100 Balance check. You also gain immunity to grease and similar effects.

Aerial Embrace [Varies]
Prerequisite: Character Level 9
Benefit: You gain a Fly speed equal to your base land speed. This ability manifests in one of two ways:

You grow wings, granting you Extraordinary flight with Average maneuverability.
You gain powers of levitation, granting you Supernatural flight with Perfect maneuverability.

Special: This feat may be either a [Gift] or [Knack] feat. If you choose wings, it’s a [Knack] feat. If you choose levitation, it’s a [Gift] feat.

Feel the Air [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 9
Benefit: You gain blindsense out to a distance of 5 feet per character level.

Feel the Earth [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 9
Benefit: You gain tremorsense out to a distance of 10 feet per character level. At 15th level, you may target creatures you sense with perfect accuracy, as though you could see them with your eyes.

Following Dark [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 9
Benefit: Shadows follow and cling to you, granting you concealment. At 18th level, this improves to total concealment. Character capable of seeing in magical darkness ignore this concealment, and a light spell with a caster level equal to or greater than your character level deactivates and suppresses this ability for 1d4 rounds. You may activate or deactivate this ability as a swift action.

Giant Growth [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 9
Benefit: As a swift action, you may increase your size by one size category, gaining the benefits and penalties described in the Monster Manual’s “Improving Monsters” chapter. You may return to your original size as a swift action, or when knocked out. This growth stacks with Powerful Build, but not with enlarge person or similar such effects. Beginning at 15th level, you may increase your size by one or two size categories.

Hero’s Resilience [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 9
Benefit: You gain Damage Resistance/— equal to one-half your character level, rounded down.

Hero’s Vitality [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 9
Benefit: You gain Fast Healing equal to one-third your character level, rounded down.

Impervious Body [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 9
Benefit: When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on you, there is a 5% chance per character level that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is rolled normally.

Infinite Pocket [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 9
Benefit: You can activate a small extradimensional holding space, with a volume of 5 cubic feet per character level. Accessing this space is a swift action that provokes attacks of opportunity, or a move action that does not. Objects stored inside have no weight. Living creatures inside the space have ten minutes worth of air, refreshed whenever you open the space.

Metamagic Specialist [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 9
Benefit: Select one metamagic feat you possess, with a spell level modification of three or less. Three times per day, you may apply it to a spell you know without increasing the casting time. You may only use this feat to benefit spells whose level is at least half that of the highest level spell you could cast, rounded down. Thus, a 10th level Wizard could apply his metamagic feat to a 1st or 2nd level spell, but not a 3rd.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, selecting a new metamagic feat you possess each time.

Prolific Caster [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 9
Benefit: You may cast twice as many 1st-level spells as normal for a member of your class. Apply this benefit before calculating bonus spells from a high ability score. However, all spells of that level take a -1 penalty to spell save DC and caster level.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you do, it applies to the next highest level of spells— 2nd level spells the second time you take the feat, 3rd level spells the third time, and so on.
Special 2: This feat functions slightly differently for manifesters. Instead of doubling their spells per day, when manifesting powers of an affected level, they only need to pay half as many pp as normal (rounded up).

See the Unseen [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 9
Benefit: You can see invisible creatures and magic auras as though under the effects of see invisibility and arcane sight spells.

Speak to the World [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 9
Benefit: You may speak and understand all languages, as though under the effects of a tongues spell.

Spite Shrinking [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 9
Benefit: As a swift action, you may decrease your size by one size category, gaining the benefits and penalties described in the Monster Manual’s “Improving Monsters” chapter. You may return to your original size as a swift action, or when knocked out. This reduction stacks with Slight Build, but not with reduce person or similar such effects. Beginning at 15th level, you may decrease your size by one or two size categories.

Temporary Genius[Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 9
Benefit: As a standard action, you may trade this feat for another [Gift] or [Knack] feat for one hour. You must meet all qualifications for this temporary feat; however, when doing so, your character level is treated as though it was two-thirds normal (rounded down). Thus, a 9th level character could Unstoppable Mind (requiring a character level of 6), but not Infinite Pocket (requiring a character level of 9). You may use this ability once per day for every 5 character levels you possess.

You may not select a feat which requires a choice upon acquiring, such as Mystic Dabbler or Mystic Inspiration.

Trollslayer [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 9
Benefit: You may deal lethal damage to creatures with regeneration. Any creature you strike must make a Fortitude save, with a DC equal to the damage, or by unable to heal by any means for one round. If the creature succeeds on its save, it cannot be affected by that aspect of this ability again for the remainder of the round, although your attacks still may bypass its regeneration.

Warp Step [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 9
Benefit: As a move action, you may teleport a distance equal to your base land speed. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. You may bring objects along, as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load, but not creatures. If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you take 1d6 points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.

Borrow Form [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 12
Benefit: As a swift action, you may transform into a single alternate form, as though using the polymorph spell. This form must have a number of hit die and challenge rating equal to or less than your character level.
Special: Whenever you gain a new feat, you may select a different form.

Energy Blessing [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 12, Energy Attunement
Benefit: You gain immunity to the energy type you chose with your Energy Attunement spell. Whenever you would be damaged by that type of energy, you instead heal for half the amount of damage.

Ethereal Instability [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 12
Benefit: You continually flicker between the Material and Ethereal Planes, as though under the effects of a blink spell. You may activate or deactivate this ability as a swift action.

Expanded Mind [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 12
Benefit: You gain telepathy with a range of 100 feet. In addition, you may detect and pinpoint non-mindless creatures within range of your telepathy, although creatures detected this way are still considered to have total concealment unless you can perceive them another way.

Mystic Inspiration [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 12
Benefit: Pick one spell per four character levels. These spells must be of a level you can cast, but can come from the spell list of any class with an equal or greater maximum spell level. (Thus, a Bard could select a Cleric spell, but not a Ranger spell). If a spell appears on multiple lists, use the highest level it is listed under. Three times per day, you may expend one of your spells to cast one of the selected spells of an equal or lesser level.
Special: Each time you level up, you may select different spells. You may take this feat multiple times, gaining new spells each time.

True Sight [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 12
Benefit: As an immediate action, you may gain the benefits of true seeing and analyze dweomer,, as the spells, and an insight bonus to Spot and Search checks, for as long as you wish. At the end of each round that the effect is active, you must make a DC 20 Will save or take a point of Wisdom damage.

Iron Defiance [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 12
Benefit: When you would be dazed or stunned, you instead take 2d6 nonlethal damage for each round that you would have been dazed or stunned.

Master of Defense [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 12
Benefit: Opponents attacking you with ranged or melee weapons or weaponlike spells suffer a miss chance equal to your character level.
G&G Variant: If using Giants and Graveyards houserules, the miss chance from this feat stacks with that granted by wielding a shield.

Know the Air [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 12, Feel the Air
Benefit: Your blindsense improves to blindsight.

Planar Step [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 12, Warp Step
Benefit: You may travel from plane to plane as though using a plane shift spell. However, when doing so, you spend 1d4 hours traversing the Astral Plane in order to reach your destination.

Will to Live [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 12
Benefit: When you would be affected by a death effect, you may instead take 5d6 nonlethal damage.

Burrowing Mind [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 15, Expanded Mind
Benefit: You may use Detect Thoughts, Charm Person, and Suggestion as spell-like abilities usable at will, targeting creatures you can perceive with your telepathy. These abilities have a caster level equal to your character level, and a save DC of 10+1/2 your character level + your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier (your choice when you select the feat).

Earthglide [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 15, Dwarven Delver
Benefit: You gain the Earthglide ability of an Earth Elemental. You may glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. Your burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing your burrowing self flings you back 30 feet, stunning you for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save. In addition, you do not need to breathe while underground.

Endless Step [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 15, Warp Step
Benefit: You may use teleport as a spell-like ability three times per day, with a caster level equal to your class level. Afterwards, you and any creatures who travelled with you are dazed for 1d4 rounds.

Hero’s Immortality [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 15, Hero’s Vitality
Benefit: Your fast healing improves to regeneration, bypassed by one special material of your choice.

Hidden Fate [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 15
Benefit: You cannot be detected by divination spells or effects.

Indomitable Will [Knack]
Prerequisite: Character Level 15
Benefit: When you would be affected by a mind-affecting effect, you may instead take 5d6 nonlethal damage.

-------------

This Fix and Tiers
This method treats all classes the same, in accordance with my principle of "if you want to balance classes, use proper class rewrites." If you want, though, you can alter the progression of bonus feats to serve as a sort of balancing mechanism:



Class
Bonus Feat Progression


Tier 1
One feat every tenth level


Tier 2
One feat every fifth level


Tier 3
One feat every fourth level


Tier 4
One feat every third level


Tier 5
One feat every odd-numbered level, starting at third


Tier 6
One feat per level, starting at second level



------------------

ddude987
2014-06-20, 01:06 PM
Why a competence not an enhancement bonus? Enhancement is what you're replacing from the stats that gain those bonuses, except initiative.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-06-20, 01:34 PM
Why a competence not an enhancement bonus? Enhancement is what you're replacing from the stats that gain those bonuses, except initiative.
Competence bonuses are due to exceptional skills. Enhancement bonuses are due to magic. You're not enchanting anything as you level up, you're just that good.

Fizban
2014-06-22, 06:44 AM
I was skeptical, but this might actually be sufficient. The base numbers are tuned really high but the bonus gifts/knacks are relatively few so even if some guy one-ups your whole build he shouldn't have as many other options. It still irks me with the lack of liquid ability, where if you need something to overcome a challenge you have to go fight crocs in the swamp until you level up or something, instead of trading some of your loot or even a major item to get someone to part with what you need. The latter assumes that such a merchant exists, but the former leaves you with just pure metagaming. Lacking the various rods and wondrous gadgets you'll have a lot of things you can't do unless you spam the spell duplication option, same with any effects shorter than "all the time."

Biggest problem is that competence bonus type though, since it stacks with almost everything. Magic Weapon/Vestment and Resistance spells just shot ridiculously far up in power, normally being marginalized pretty quick by cheap items they now stack on top of an already cutting edge bonus (1/3 levels is faster than GMW and MV as I'm sure you're aware). A party with this variant, a bard or some Heroics/Good Hope, and the above spells will have numbers=yes along with the permanent abilities offered by most gifts/knacks.

ddude987
2014-06-23, 07:36 AM
Competence bonuses are due to exceptional skills. Enhancement bonuses are due to magic. You're not enchanting anything as you level up, you're just that good.

Are you worried that these will stacking with spells like Cat's Grace and similar will bring players above the normal power level? I thought Christmas-tree-mitigation was only to make players buy more interesting gear than +X to Y.

Magic Weapon/Vestment and Resistance spells just shot ridiculously far up in power, normally being marginalized pretty quick by cheap items they now stack on top of an already cutting edge bonus (1/3 levels is faster than GMW and MV as I'm sure you're aware).

I believe the point of "cutting down the christmas tree" is such +X to Y items do not exist and/or are very rare. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-06-23, 11:10 AM
I was skeptical, but this might actually be sufficient. The base numbers are tuned really high but the bonus gifts/knacks are relatively few so even if some guy one-ups your whole build he shouldn't have as many other options. It still irks me with the lack of liquid ability, where if you need something to overcome a challenge you have to go fight crocs in the swamp until you level up or something, instead of trading some of your loot or even a major item to get someone to part with what you need. The latter assumes that such a merchant exists, but the former leaves you with just pure metagaming. Lacking the various rods and wondrous gadgets you'll have a lot of things you can't do unless you spam the spell duplication option, same with any effects shorter than "all the time."
Eh, that's always the trade-off with variant rules like this. Think about it this way: the adventure becomes "how do we use our abilities to address the challenge," rather than "what do we buy to address the challenge?"


Are you worried that these will stacking with spells like Cat's Grace and similar will bring players above the normal power level? I thought Christmas-tree-mitigation was only to make players buy more interesting gear than +X to Y.


I believe the point of "cutting down the christmas tree" is such +X to Y items do not exist and/or are very rare. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
You're correct on the +X items-- I knew I was forgetting something in the OP.

ddude987
2014-06-23, 10:11 PM
You're correct on the +X items-- I knew I was forgetting something in the OP.

I only assumed because the group I play with always uses these rules :smallbiggrin:

Fizban
2014-06-24, 03:37 AM
Eh, that's always the trade-off with variant rules like this. Think about it this way: the adventure becomes "how do we use our abilities to address the challenge," rather than "what do we buy to address the challenge?"
Yeah, but if you have a party without a full wizard or cleric there are things that they cannot do without liquid magic items: they have no abilities that can address the challenge. But that's only a problem if the DM isn't paying attention to the party composition so it's a moot point for these purposes.

The new edits should be sufficient, I had just assumed no magic items at all so I didn't think about removing those bonuses. Crafting feats held in check by the lack of money then?

SinsI
2014-06-24, 07:44 AM
I think good way for Low-Magic-Item Rules goes something like this:
1) Gestalt every character for free with a Magic of Incarnum class.
2) Give them benefits of Vow of Poverty for free, with two changes: no drawbacks and Bonus feats can be of any type.

Your solution only does the second one. This means that the options your characters have are going to be limited and a lot of enemies are going to be out of their reach.

Try to add some way to switch your bonus feats around, the way Incarnum characters can reshape/rebind their Soulmelds or redistribute the Essentia invested.

And if you have no magic items, Wealth By Level should be eliminated entirely.

ddude987
2014-06-24, 03:56 PM
I finally had the time to read all the gift and knack feats, and I like them. Are they designed to fully replace magic items in a campaign or go along with magic items?

Grod_The_Giant
2014-06-24, 04:27 PM
I finally had the time to read all the gift and knack feats, and I like them. Are they designed to fully replace magic items in a campaign or go along with magic items?
Mmm. The hope is that, when paired with a well-designed (tier ~3) class/build, you'd be item independent, and wouldn't need any magic items to deal with level-appropriate challenges. Magic items could be handed out, and would add new capabilities, but they wouldn't be necessary to function.

So I guess the question, as SinsI raises it, is "are were there?" Assuming that we've got a party of, oh,

A Psychic Warrior
A Factotum
A Dread Necromancer
A Bard

Would they be crippled without magic items? With 1/5 WBL on top of these bonuses?

Durazno
2014-06-24, 05:50 PM
With Borrow Form, does the alternate form advance alongside my main form? Like if I choose a Babau as an alternate form at level 7, then advance to level 8, would my Babau form get to advance a hit die?

Grod_The_Giant
2014-06-24, 10:00 PM
With Borrow Form, does the alternate form advance alongside my main form? Like if I choose a Babau as an alternate form at level 7, then advance to level 8, would my Babau form get to advance a hit die?
No, although when in Babau form you'd benefit from your improved hit points, BAB, skill ranks and such.

Eldan
2014-06-25, 06:24 AM
I haven't read all the Gifts and Knacks yet, but I think the basic idea works. Well done.

I had a similar idea a while ago that I wanted to write down at some point, though I wanted to use a specific resource called "Mana" for it. As in, the mythological concept, not generic videogame magic points.

Players, by levelling, gain mana points. Basically "importance or influence in the world" or "fate". Everyone can spend mana to increase their charisma, but by levelling (and potentially spending feats and some bloodlines), one can also learn how to spend mana to increase other numerical values, making bound items better, binding magic to objects permanently (ala magic items) or, perhaps, even improve places, creating magical landscapes.

This seems like it is, interestingly, both simpler and more versatile, in addition to being finished, so good job.

nonsi
2014-06-25, 09:48 PM
A small nitpick and more serious issues.


Instead of +2 to an ability score every 2 levels, make it +1 to an ability score at each level.
More streamlined and gives better maneuvering room.



Why the competence bonus?
You already get competence by leveling.
Why would a mage gain competence bonuses to athleticism when it's as far from his focus as one could think of?
In my view, competence shouldn't be class-disassociated.



But my primary issue is with the Knacks / Gifts.
It's not a balance issue, but some of them really break suspension of disbelief.
Take Strong Back for instance. Putting magical powers aside for a moment, 3rd level is well within the realm of RL human capabilities, yet traveling normally with a small car on your back is nowhere near the vicinity of mortal human realm - not even for the holder of the weight lifting world record.
Same goes form Aquatic Touch and Dwarven Delver, which totally shatters everything we know about humanoid bio-mechanics.
As for Ascetic Gift - IRL, no living organism can do that indefinitely. I could see it as a reasonable High-level monk feature (or for highly magical beings, such as warlocks), but not for other characters.
The rest are high-leveled enough to be less problematic, I guess.


And speaking of Knacks / Gifts . . . when proposing a new appropriate feat, how would I know if I should categorize if as [Knack] or [Gift] ?

Grod_The_Giant
2014-06-25, 10:13 PM
Instead of +2 to an ability score every 2 levels, make it +1 to an ability score at each level.
More streamlined and gives better maneuvering room.
Hmm, maybe...


Why the competence bonus?
Because it's not magic, so an enhancement bonus made no sense.


You already get competence by leveling.
Why would a mage gain competence bonuses to athleticism when it's as far from his focus as one could think of?
In my view, competence shouldn't be class-disassociated.

The class-based bonuses, are already factored into the classes. These are bonuses to things that are important to all adventurers.


And speaking of Knacks / Gifts . . . when proposing a new appropriate feat, how would I know if I should categorize if as [Knack] or [Gift] ?
Knacks are (Ex), Gifts are (Su). That's it, really. They can both have supernatural origins, if you prefer-- the distinction is in how they manifest in-game, is all. You could be "just that strong," or maybe you've got a bit of giant's blood in you, or maybe you've been hit by one too many bull's strength spells.

Fizban
2014-06-26, 03:25 AM
So I guess the question, as SinsI raises it, is "are were there?" Assuming that we've got a party of, oh,

A Psychic Warrior
A Factotum
A Dread Necromancer
A Bard

Would they be crippled without magic items? With 1/5 WBL on top of these bonuses?

That team? They should be fine as long as they work as a team rather than a group of independents when picking their spells and powers known (generally a good idea anyway), but that's mostly because each of their classes is pretty independent and generalist already. Dread Necro has minions or tomb-tainted, Psy War probably has Vigor, and Factotum's positive energy should be enough healing, but the important thing is that they're all "casters" of some sort and can lean on the Factotum's spell-fakery when they don't have the right spells known.

I'm more worried about what happens if you replace two of those slots with a Rogue and a Fighter. I don't take much stock in tier ratings since in my experience they don't mean jack in-game, but Rogue is supposedly tier-3 while having gaping holes in it's combat ability against undead/plants/constructs/etc, and people play Fighters all the time (and even a Warblade can't do much but fight). If the entire party is semi-casters then even with limited spells known they're likely to have a good number of options, but if the party is two mundanes and two semi-casters they do not have enough to work with (In my current game the party has about 1/2 a bard and a duskblade or so). Without wands a Bard can't keep up with out of combat healing, without a scroll shop or a runestaff even a Sorcerer has set list of problems he can and cannot solve. In fact, I'm sure that a lot of the "solid tier-3" builds out there (for non-divine casters) are absolutely relying on having Healing Belts and other cheap items available to fill in their gaps.

Hmm, guess I've gotta be greedy. What I seem to be moving towards is not enough Knack/Gift feats. You've got a good list already, but there are still tons of items that don't have replacements, and if you want the system to work with any possible party you need to have the "items" available for any possible build. Particularly the cheapos that people take for granted; looking at the bottom rank of the list I'd actually end up taking the initiative bonus simply because the only other choice at that tier I care about is seeing in the dark, and seeing in the dark is a chump choice when every other race and monster already has darkvision. Sorcerers can't shore up their spells known without something to replace runestaves, non-divine casters don't have any out of combat healing without healing belts, non-initators can't beat DR, people who want to summon mounts or whatever can't do that (no Bag of Tricks or Figurines of Wondrous Power), and so on. There is the Mystic Dabbler gift, true, but if you could do everything that easy there'd be no items but wands. Just keep brewin' till the people stop complainin'.

*Again, I'm assuming a goal of being usable without any magic items. The current list does replace most of the big things so you'd only have to manage a small list of normally cheap items that now become a large fraction of wealth, but also vastly more important since many can't be duplicated with knacks or gifts even as most conventional builds rely on them. I'm pretty sure I've seen homebrew classes that neglected this or that because it was a cheap item, even when they were supposed to be ultimate everything classes.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-06-26, 08:25 AM
You could certainly feel justified in handing out more bonus feats to lower-tier classes-- I noted as much at the bottom of the page. You make a fair point about low-cost items. Hmm... well, I can write some more feats. Can you?

Eldest
2014-06-28, 06:44 PM
I like the fix. Seems well thought out.


That team? They should be fine as long as they work as a team rather than a group of independents when picking their spells and powers known (generally a good idea anyway), but that's mostly because each of their classes is pretty independent and generalist already. Dread Necro has minions or tomb-tainted, Psy War probably has Vigor, and Factotum's positive energy should be enough healing, but the important thing is that they're all "casters" of some sort and can lean on the Factotum's spell-fakery when they don't have the right spells known.

I'm more worried about what happens if you replace two of those slots with a Rogue and a Fighter. I don't take much stock in tier ratings since in my experience they don't mean jack in-game, but Rogue is supposedly tier-3 while having gaping holes in it's combat ability against undead/plants/constructs/etc, and people play Fighters all the time (and even a Warblade can't do much but fight). If the entire party is semi-casters then even with limited spells known they're likely to have a good number of options, but if the party is two mundanes and two semi-casters they do not have enough to work with (In my current game the party has about 1/2 a bard and a duskblade or so). Without wands a Bard can't keep up with out of combat healing, without a scroll shop or a runestaff even a Sorcerer has set list of problems he can and cannot solve. In fact, I'm sure that a lot of the "solid tier-3" builds out there (for non-divine casters) are absolutely relying on having Healing Belts and other cheap items available to fill in their gaps.

Hmm, guess I've gotta be greedy. What I seem to be moving towards is not enough Knack/Gift feats. You've got a good list already, but there are still tons of items that don't have replacements, and if you want the system to work with any possible party you need to have the "items" available for any possible build. Particularly the cheapos that people take for granted; looking at the bottom rank of the list I'd actually end up taking the initiative bonus simply because the only other choice at that tier I care about is seeing in the dark, and seeing in the dark is a chump choice when every other race and monster already has darkvision. Sorcerers can't shore up their spells known without something to replace runestaves, non-divine casters don't have any out of combat healing without healing belts, non-initators can't beat DR, people who want to summon mounts or whatever can't do that (no Bag of Tricks or Figurines of Wondrous Power), and so on. There is the Mystic Dabbler gift, true, but if you could do everything that easy there'd be no items but wands. Just keep brewin' till the people stop complainin'.

*Again, I'm assuming a goal of being usable without any magic items. The current list does replace most of the big things so you'd only have to manage a small list of normally cheap items that now become a large fraction of wealth, but also vastly more important since many can't be duplicated with knacks or gifts even as most conventional builds rely on them. I'm pretty sure I've seen homebrew classes that neglected this or that because it was a cheap item, even when they were supposed to be ultimate everything classes.

A note, the rogue is tier 4. Not tier 3.

Realms of Chaos
2014-06-30, 08:45 PM
I would make two additions to this fix.

99% of the time, I am VERY skeptical about the various claims here that there will be creatures that players simply can't deal with at all. Given the lack of specific examples given here, I feel that I should qualify that statement with the following:

Without any equipment, a team of four average CWar samurai, without magic items, can fight...

Underwater creatures. You may need Con checks and may have your damage reduced but being debuffed in a fight =/= being unable to fight.
Flying creatures. While they aren't the best option, you can used ranged weaponry. If they use flyby attack, you can ready an action to attack them when they try. If you can't use ranged weaponry and they aren't getting within range, players could seek cover to force the enemy closer in many environments.
Creatures with damage reduction. With Decent Str, the DR of most CR-appropriate creatures isn't too overwhelming. It may slow your damage a bit but most DR can be overcome even without preparations.
Fast creatures. Even if the creature has Earth glide, Spring Attack, and a tumble skill of +999, you can ready an action to attack the next thing that comes within range. If using ranged weaponry, the above applies as for flying.
Invisible creatures: while it is difficult, it is possible to pinpoint and fight invisible creatures without divinations.


Nothing can fight a well-made caster, true, but saying that everyone needs the versatility of a caster to help make up for not everyone actually being a caster seems a bit nuts.


There are only two things that really have to be instated if you're going without magic:
1. At some point, weaponry needs to be counted as magical. With the rules as they are, any noncaster who doesn't choose ghost touch becomes worthless and helpless in a fight against incorporeal creatures. Even without that feat, noncasters deserve at least the basic 50% chance at some point.
2. The rules for natural healing have to be revamped. If you didn't like healing surges making healers feel unnecessary in 4e, I can understand that.On the other hand, forcing a party with their WBL already reduced to 20% that they should use some of that on curative wands and potions is a bit crazy. In a game largely predicated on battle, something to soften the lethality may be a good boon.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-06-30, 09:25 PM
Those are both excellent points. Thank you.

I can make all weapons bypass DR/Magic at level... oh, call it level 5.

As for vamping up natural healing... what do you suggest? Con Mod/hour? Level/hour? Con Mod*Level/Day? Grant some minor fast healing automatically? Link to some healing power-ups like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317823-Mystic-Healer-PrC-%28Fixed-List-Caster-Project-Expansion%29-3-5-PEACH)? (These are low-magic-item rules, but they aren't exactly for low magic settings-- Gifts and Knacks are pretty far from mundane)

Realms of Chaos
2014-06-30, 10:37 PM
As for bypassing incorporeality, your method is certainly functional, though I might suggest something like this for more regularity.

Master Strike: Starting at 5th level, all physical attacks have a 50% chance of ignoring incorporeality (they must still hit their opponent).
Starting at 10th level, all physical attacks have a 50% chance of ignoring damage reduction (other defenses like energy resistance are unaffected)
Starting at 15th level, all physical attacks have a 50% chance of ignoring regeneration.
If two or more of these abilities would apply to a single attack, roll once to determine if all of them or none of them apply.

The above handles incorporeality, helps normal people handle DR without making it trivial, and makes it possible to fight creatures with regeneration (the only way I can think to do it that doesn't involve letting all players shoot energy blasts). Might be a bit too much, though.

Healing is admittedly a giant can of worms due to hp healing vs. condition healing, though hp healing should be enough for most purposes. Maybe something like this?

Enduring: You heal natural healing increases to 2 hp/character level each day, increasing to 5 hp/character level if wounded. While injured, you may press yourself harder to make it through a fight. Once per encounter, as a standard action, you may grant yourself temporary hit points equal to (half of your maximum hit points - your current hit points) (minimum 0). These temporary hit points last up to 5 rounds.

In truth, though, anything from one of those boosts to a personal lay-on-hands to permanent fast healing to 4e-style healing surges would work. The above is just one possible mechanism.

Fizban
2014-07-01, 04:59 AM
I'm not being specific because I don't have anything specific, but I'm not just talking about fighting. The DMG makes a point of not expecting players to have things above their level, but the game still assume you have a wizard and cleric. Taking the Red Hand of Doom module for example, early on you're given a chance to destroy a bridge. The module hands you a scroll of Earthquake, and suggests you could use Stone Shape, but if you don't have a caster I guess it's time to break out the pickaxe and see how long it takes to chop down a bridge. Later you assault a fortress in the middle of a lake, but even if you approach under darkness the monsters all have darkvision, so you're gonna get hit with rocks before you land unless you build a submarine (or can magic your way around it). There are plenty of monsters with spell-like abilities you can't deal with: what about a Phase Spider or Mind Flayer that can plane shift away? (There's a plane shift ability on the list, but taking 1d4 hours means it's no good for a chase.) Even without spellcasting a Lich has permanent paralyisis. Mummy Rot can't be cured without specific magic. Curses can't be removed without specific magic. The DMG example is Wall of Force: cannot be bypassed without Disintegrate, and even if they party can't cast it the game assumes they can go buy a scroll or something at a high enough level.

Eating the penalties for fighting underwater or flying enemies is fine and good, but there are plenty of non-monster problems that can only be solved with magic, and even if you can *fight* you can't necessarily *win* under those penalties.

Am I being difficult? Yes. I'm a proponent of the incredibly unpopular idea that a spellcasters spell's aren't their own: because the game assumes you're casting Fly and Resist Energy on the Fighter so he can survive and Improved Invisility so the rogue can sneak attack. Since people don't like doing that magic item creep went to cover it, so if you want to replace all the magic items you gotta cover all the everything. And if the party has no casters they're even more screwed for fixing problems that require magic they don't have when they can't trade loot for it.

Realms of Chaos
2014-07-01, 08:57 AM
Fizban: I think that I can kind of see where you're coming from, though I admittedly don't agree with the core concept as a rule so I see it in a slightly dimmer light. Because casters have access to answers to every possible problem, people can use modules, monster manuals, and pre-made adventures of their own design without too much worry about things being "impossible". Magic items, meanwhile, 1) help casters (especially spontaneous casters) fill out any niggling holes in their arcane knowledge and 2) give the DM a tactically relevant form of fiat to give the players when a lack of some effect would stop the game (like the scroll of earthquake or the inevitable fire-resistant armor red dragons keep for some reason), with scrolls having the extra advantages of being one-shot items to get through one specific difficulty (not unbalancing the game as a whole) while giving an inventive player some agency.

With this being the case, I have two further suggestions for the system:
1. I suggest removing the magical dabbler and giving each player the ability to switch one knack or gift with another 1/day as a move action, giving advanced heroes some ability to react to the world around them without a DM needing to bring out fiat. Would also imitate the ability of players to sell items to get more as well, getting the full versatility of items. Alternately, maybe give everyone a single knack/gift slot that they can fill 1/day for 1 hour with any knack/feat they meet all prerequisites for.
2. As doing a miniature spell effect may not address the same problems and situations as a particular spell, I might suggest (in the long-term) giving each knack and gift a "surge" ability usable 1/day, making it as effective as the spell it seeks to imitate (increased speed granting most/all benefits of haste for limited duration, planeshifting once as a standard action, etc), perhaps preventing you from trading out the knack for 24 hours.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-01, 12:24 PM
I acknowledge that no magic items would leave some holes, which is why I'm not advocating that. ~20% WBL should be more than enough to pick up your wands and scrolls and such. But I really don't think it's as big an issue as you're making it out to be. If you're worried about low-tier classes, grant them more bonus feats.

Realms of Chaos, the temporary slot isn't a bad idea... maybe a Knack, "Temporary Genius." I'll also add in a Lay on Hands style Gift, to cover spamable healing. (Level times/day, grant touched target fast healing equal to their Con mod for 1 minute?)

Fizban
2014-07-02, 03:03 AM
Thank you Realms, you made that into much more useful words than I've ever managed, and now I can quote that if it comes up again in the future :smallsmile:

Temporary Genius sounds like it should do the trick. For Lay on Hands, I've always preferred less calculation there: Guardinals just have Lay on Hands pool=my max hp, and while I've not seen it used in practice I figure that should be a good amount. Enough to top off if you fight conservatively and lose 25% per battle, or enough to emergency heal once and then get the heck out. Maybe let them pick weather to use con or cha or a flat number like the Healing Pool ACF clerics can get (I think it was a flat number?).

I was meaning to actually step up and try writing some, but then I got bogged down in other threads and remembered why I don't usually forum: too much thread, not enough brew. I spend all my time arguing little points and burn out.

ddude987
2014-07-03, 08:02 AM
I acknowledge that no magic items would leave some holes, which is why I'm not advocating that. ~20% WBL should be more than enough to pick up your wands and scrolls and such. But I really don't think it's as big an issue as you're making it out to be. If you're worried about low-tier classes, grant them more bonus feats.

Realms of Chaos, the temporary slot isn't a bad idea... maybe a Knack, "Temporary Genius." I'll also add in a Lay on Hands style Gift, to cover spamable healing. (Level times/day, grant touched target fast healing equal to their Con mod for 1 minute?)

Well if you are going to give them WBL to buy wands and similar, they can buy wands of lesser vigor themselves, you don't have to make a feat for that. Then again... that is the point of the mitigation rules isn't it? I think there already is a feat for spammable healing, its a reserve feat that can put people up to half their max hp.

Realms of Chaos
2014-07-03, 10:13 AM
Well if you are going to give them WBL to buy wands and similar, they can buy wands of lesser vigor themselves, you don't have to make a feat for that. Then again... that is the point of the mitigation rules isn't it? I think there already is a feat for spammable healing, its a reserve feat that can put people up to half their max hp.

True, but I think that the problem here wasn't so much that "spammable healing should be a thing" so much as "noncaster parties should be able to access halfway decent noncombat healing in some way". As reserve feats are only accessible to spellcasters, it wouldn't really answer the central issue.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-03, 02:34 PM
True, but I think that the problem here wasn't so much that "spammable healing should be a thing" so much as "noncaster parties should be able to access halfway decent noncombat healing in some way". As reserve feats are only accessible to spellcasters, it wouldn't really answer the central issue.
Pretty much this, yeah. (Though they do have the same name. Whoops)

bekeleven
2014-07-04, 06:31 PM
I just read post 1. I like the numerical boosts, and I think they look balanced (at a glance).

Less cool with the gifts and knacks. Looks to me like noncasters would be constrained to grabbing all of the necessary item effects (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) with their feats (3 levels for flight, 6 levels for mind blank, etc.) while casters just get a bunch of extra stuff for free.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-04, 07:03 PM
I just read post 1. I like the numerical boosts, and I think they look balanced (at a glance).

Less cool with the gifts and knacks. Looks to me like noncasters would be constrained to grabbing all of the necessary item effects (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) with their feats (3 levels for flight, 6 levels for mind blank, etc.) while casters just get a bunch of extra stuff for free.
I've said many times that this is not meant to address the mundane-magic gap. Not even the "This Fix and Tiers" section really touches that. It's impossible to fix that without totally rewriting the system. The feats were meant to be an interesting way to replicate some magic items while still offering players choices, and not causing new balance problems* or fluff oddities**. Yeah, casters have more freedom when choosing their bonus feats here. But you know what? They had more freedom when choosing magic items, too.

Do you have any criticisms/suggestions that are more productive than "you didn't solve address a fundamental problem with 3.5 balance that you weren't trying to touch here?"


*For example, if everyone automatically gets true seeing at 11th level, illusions instantly become useless.
**Why can the entire population above 6th level fly? Because reasons!

SinsI
2014-07-04, 07:42 PM
BTW, why, exactly, do you call this "chopping down the christmas tree"?

As far as I can see, all the magic items are still there, only now they are called Feats and Static Bonuses, and characters have less flexibility in their selection (which is a BAD thing).

To really get rid of the built-in need for most characters to carry dozens and dozens of magic items, you need to rebuild monsters, traps, classes with supernatural abilities and other challenges in such a way that solving them should require not exotic spell and materials, but creative use of mundane items and skills.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-04, 07:57 PM
BTW, why, exactly, do you call this "chopping down the christmas tree"?
Because characters are defined by their abilities (including feats, yes), not by their loot. Because characters are no longer wandering around with several kings' ransoms worth of magic items strapped to their bodies. Because everyone's not spending 90% of their gold on the same items.

And I've got to say, I think people may be overstating the flexibility of magic items in-game. Aside from things like scrolls and wands (which I suggest leaving in; that's what the 1/5 WBL is for), continually swapping around your magic items

Requires a magic item mart (or artificer), which may not be assumed
Will rapidly run you out of money, as you buy for full and sell for half.

SinsI
2014-07-04, 10:11 PM
More obvious problems:

1) Everyone gets the same Competence bonus. What's the point? With magic items, you have to choose what you want - a better attack, better saves, better utility, better skills or bonuses to abilities - as wealth is not unlimited until the latter levels; players have to specialize - one fights Undead, another tanks the enemies, third one does the buffing or debuffing.
One can say that it is this specialization - where everyone has weak points that others cover for them - is the ideal and desired D&D party & gameplay.

2) What if you are playing a class that already has (almost) all of those covered, like Wizard, Totemist or Druid?
The items they want are vastly different from the items for Paladins or Rogues - things like Pearls of Power, Metamagic Rods, wands and spell scrolls normally eat almost all the wealth of a typical Wizard, and almost all of your Feats and Bonuses are much less important for them (or completely redundant).

Fizban
2014-07-05, 07:55 AM
Because characters are defined by their abilities (including feats, yes), not by their loot. Because characters are no longer wandering around with several kings' ransoms worth of magic items strapped to their bodies. Because everyone's not spending 90% of their gold on the same items.

And I've got to say, I think people may be overstating the flexibility of magic items in-game. Aside from things like scrolls and wands (which I suggest leaving in; that's what the 1/5 WBL is for), continually swapping around your magic items

Requires a magic item mart (or artificer), which may not be assumed
Will rapidly run you out of money, as you buy for full and sell for half.

True, selling and re-buying is a huge waste of money. More than a little of my strategy in that situation involves leaning towards the DM and speaking with an emphatic voice that the 75% or so "trade" I'm offering this guy is a very good deal. A lot of the liquidity of "magic items" depends on how much of the WBL is actually just flat gold, and weather your DM counts items the party has no use for as if they were just gems worth 1/2 as much (filling in the gap with more cash or items).

To be clear, I do like most of this. With Lay on Hands and some form of "genius" gift as you called it, I'd be just fine walking it up to any of the modules I've read with a normal party. In practice if a player wants something not on the list (as in something unexpected) it can be written. Your suggestion of 1/5 WBL is quite fine for consumables (the DMG notes that random treasure rolls should produce about 10% more than WBL to account for consumables, so you've given twice that). Problems with caster-less parties are more a problem with the module or game as a whole.

The only part that really bugs me is the DnD economy and DM/module fiat: you mention walking around with a kings ransom in items on your back, but it seems nigh impossible to even figure out what that should be. Some books seem to assume that normal nobles are basically just well-off commoners, others that even a local lord has nigh infinite money. There are definite prices for airships and castles, but these are often said to be built by people that could not afford them. NPCs can have legions (by which I mean a dozen) constructs that have a combined cost rivaling a flying fortress, picked because the constructs look cool. Stronghold Builder's Guide gives a method where you can generate a tiny (1-5%) fraction of the cost of the stronghold in profits if it controls an income source and/or tax the peasants, so by that one could rough out the value of the strongholds of any significant figures and find their income. It will be laughable. The business rules from whatever book that was? Broken as heck.

PHBII affiliations? Maybe. You can calculate total capital in gp values based on the lump sum donation: total is capital*scale*1k or 10k at rank 10 and higher. A scale 9 barony that's not sinking or gaining has around 90k (ranging from 9k at nearly conquered to 180k which allows you to rank up if you hold onto it long enough), enough for a reasonable keep and some standing army. Kingdoms starting at 12 or so add a couple keeps/airships/golems with each additional point of capital, which gain be gained at 1/2 months of inaction without being attacked. The SBG's Landlord feat would represent a character being put in charge of a certain amount of capital. Capital is not meant to represent only hard assets like buildings though, and can move about rather quickly when affiliations mess with each other, and you can't just buy your way into size without time. It's entirely possible for a small group to cause massive damage ratios with some luck, or for a large group to spend an absurd amount of money trying to stamp out the last remnants of a smaller one depending on what they are. Which is probably pretty accurate.

What does this have to do with chopping down the christmas tree? Well if you still buy items for the same prices but in smaller quantities because you get less loot, it makes it even more obvious that the BBEG couldn't possibly afford the amount of stuff you wreck every day. Maybe that's a good thing, making it impossible to just build your own fortress out of pocket, but it also makes constructs require what is apparently entire government tax programs of funding. The affiliation rules look like they do a pretty good job of ramping up the cumulative costs so you can't just treasure-buy your way into things, and assuming the BBEG is making use of company assets then the stuff you're breaking is accounted for in their capital-which is dropping as you destroy guardians and loot their elite minion corpses. The variant from the OP which is the actual topic of the thread interacts with this by reducing the effects of PCs on the capital of organizations by reducing WBL and thus the donations they can make, as well as reducing the damage incurred by looting corpses. Make crushing a golem or burning down a building a much bigger blow in comparison.

One massive tangent, served. Hope someone enjoys.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-05, 11:54 AM
1) Everyone gets the same Competence bonus. What's the point? With magic items, you have to choose what you want - a better attack, better saves, better utility, better skills or bonuses to abilities - as wealth is not unlimited until the latter levels; players have to specialize - one fights Undead, another tanks the enemies, third one does the buffing or debuffing.
One can say that it is this specialization - where everyone has weak points that others cover for them - is the ideal and desired D&D party & gameplay.
Umm... everyone buys bonuses to AC, saves, and initiative. Almost everyone can use the attack and damage bonus, as it would apply to weapon-like spells as well as weapons. I fail to see how the competence bonus has any effect on specialization, or lack thereof.

The feats, on the other hand, do encourage specialization.


2) What if you are playing a class that already has (almost) all of those covered, like Wizard, Totemist or Druid?
The items they want are vastly different from the items for Paladins or Rogues - things like Pearls of Power, Metamagic Rods, wands and spell scrolls normally eat almost all the wealth of a typical Wizard, and almost all of your Feats and Bonuses are much less important for them (or completely redundant).
Which, ah... is why I have bonus feats, rather than a VoP style list of abilities? If you're getting flight through your class features, you can get tremorsense instead. If you don't need access to healing magic, you can choose to increase your size. I'm not sure what you're complaining about here...



Fizban, thank you for the tangent. As I see it, one of the best things about using a ruleset like this is that it lets you (largely) uncouple combat power from wealth.

Realms of Chaos
2014-07-05, 12:23 PM
Which, ah... is why I have bonus feats, rather than a VoP style list of abilities? If you're getting flight through your class features, you can get tremorsense instead. If you don't need access to healing magic, you can choose to increase your size. I'm not sure what you're complaining about here...

I think that the complaint here wasn't that everyone has to take the exact same set of feats but rather that the feats currently created take the place of items a normal fighter or rogue would use. Spellcasters use different items that don't have analogies in the current list. While the 1/5 WBL is sufficient for scrolls and wands, the higher-end magical gear of casters isn't going to be accessible through money. If I'm correct with interpreting that complaint, however, the problem wouldn't be with the system itself as those knacks could be created with ease.

Here are my rough ideas for incorporating some of the more basic items:
Ring of Wizardry analog: double spell slots for a spell level of your choice up to 1/4 of your level, that it could be taken twice, and that it doesn't stack with itself.
Pearl of Power analog: grant the ability to recall total spell levels in prepared spells each day up to 1/3 of your level (in any combination).
Magic Staff analog: the player selects three spells of any spell level he or she can cast (form any spell list) that all share a single subschool or descriptor. 1/day (+1/day per 5 levels?) let the caster cast one of the spells by sacrificing a prepared spell of the same subschool/descriptor and an equal or higher spell level (or a spell slot that could be used for such a purpose, if a spontaneous caster). Can be taken multiple times, choosing a new subschool or descriptor each time.
Metamagic rod analog: Player selects one metamagic feat with a modification of three spell levels or fewer. When casting a spell of a spell level up to 1/3 of your level, you may apply the metamagic feat without altering the spell level or casting time. Can be used a number of times per day up to (4 - spell level modification). Can be selected multiple times (maybe just 2 or 3?), selecting different feat each time.
Blessed Spellbook analog: any object used as a spellbook holds an infinite number of pages and costs only half as much to inscribe spells into.

SinsI
2014-07-05, 03:58 PM
Umm... everyone buys bonuses to AC, saves, and initiative.
Nope. It makes little difference whether you are getting hit 90% of the time or 85% of the time, so AC is useless unless you go for AC = Level + 20; many casters or ranged attackers avoid it entirely, relying on other forms of protection; it is also more effective to buy a couple Pearls of Power 3 and rely on your party casters to provide you with Magic Vestments, spending the Armor bonuses on more useful abilities instead.
Saves are good, but Cloaks of Resistance take an important slot that might be better used for, say, Cloak of Charisma. Initiative is excellent, but crucial only to casters to get their Debuffs or Battlefield Control spells first; tanks can safely ignore it.


Almost everyone can use the attack and damage bonus, as it would apply to weapon-like spells as well as weapons.
For instance, those are 100% useless for area attacks like Fireball, or for those that prefer to spend their turns Summoning help.


I fail to see how the competence bonus has any effect on specialization, or lack thereof.
Bonuses that apply to every character in the same way all the time are just as boring as having everyone start with all 18s every single time. You might as well subtract the appropriate amount from every monster and call it a day.
It is the act of choosing what areas to improve and what areas are OK to leave as is that makes it fun.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-05, 04:25 PM
It might also be worth pointing out that this fix doesn't actually add much in the way of build resources.

It's main components are

The fixed, scaling, competence bonuses.
The increased attribute progression.
Bonus feats.


It also adds new feats (the knack and gift feats), but those are an option, not a resource.

In exchange for that you get drastically less wealth.

The fixed bonuses aren't particularly fun or flavorful, as SinsI pointed out. Theoretically, having them as a fixed part of leveling frees up other resources to be used on more interesting things, which would be the main reason to add them. Unfortunately, the resources removed (wealth) don't match up with the resources gained (bonus feats).

Even the the new gift and knack feats provide options that wealth might normally get spent on, you still don't get many feats (with the bonus feats, you're only getting two more than the PF default). This is problematic because the decreased wealth means you need to spend your feats on basic competencies (like being able to actually hit your target or fly). And probably end up behind in-terms of actually interesting choices.

Realms of Chaos
2014-07-05, 05:26 PM
It might also be worth pointing out that this fix doesn't actually add much in the way of build resources.

It's main components are

The fixed, scaling, competence bonuses.
The increased attribute progression.
Bonus feats.


It also adds new feats (the knack and gift feats), but those are an option, not a resource.

I... don't get this argument against the system. I honestly do not understand where this argument is coming from at this moment in time.

You refer to the new feats as "an option" but, realistically, they function identically to a resource. All five of the bonus feats this system grants you have to be spent on knacks or gifts, nothing else. Anyone using this system inevitably ends up with at least five magic-item equivalents of their choice and can select more of them in place of (often-less-powerful) feats. Even if you say that the option to take more isn't power in and of itself (fair enough), the five that you are forced to take are.

Maybe I'm not not getting why a resource is inherently better but it seems to me that if knacks/gifts were not feats and you only ever got one at every fourth level, they would be their own resource for builds by your implied definition and... I don't see how that would make them any better. :smallconfused:

If you want to say that they are plain, that is totally fair. I imagine that more can be made later.
If you want to say that there aren't any good ones for certain players, that is totally fair. More can be created in the future.
If you want to say that they don't get enough forced knacks/gifts, I'm not certain about that but it could well be the case.

Saying that being able to get more by using another resource (your normal allotment of bonus feats) is bad, however, makes me scratch my head unless I'm missing something big int he equation.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-05, 05:51 PM
Feat slots are a resource, feats are not. This makes sense because if you add more feats it doesn't inherently increase a character's power but if you add more feat slots it does (assuming, in both cases, that they have more dent feats to choose from then they have slots). Making knacks and gifts to their own thing wouldn't change this. The slot would still be the resource and the knack/gift would still be the option you spend your resource on.

By analogy, slots are like money and feats/knacks/gifts are like products to buy. Having more products to choose from doesn't make you richer.


If you want to say that they don't get enough forced knacks/gifts, I'm not certain about that but it could well be the case.
That would be my opinion.


Saying that being able to get more by using another resource (your normal allotment of bonus feats) is bad, however, makes me scratch my head unless I'm missing something big int he equation.

I didn't say it was bad. However, normally you would have separate resource (wealth) to spend on these abilities, whereas they are now competing for feat slots that also need to support your build in other ways.

Coidzor
2014-07-05, 06:14 PM
Hmm. I'm liking this a lot and I definitely want to try this out, though my eye is more towards using it to axe or at least cut down on the "necessary items" rather than magic items in general. I'd already thought that something like a Resistance bonus increasing by 1 at 3rd, 7th, 10th, 14th, and 17th level would get rid of cloaks of resistance and deliver those bonuses on time...

Why 20% in particular though? Is that what you figured was left over after accounting for necessary items?

What sort of issues would you foresee with 1/4, 1/3, or 1/2 WBL instead?

Is there a reason to shy away from enhancement bonuses other than their association with magic? I'm fairly OK with coming up with some explanation that gaining more HD means one absorbs more je ne sais quoi/magic/supernatural empowerment from the universe in certain ways if it might streamline the trouble with hitting incorporeal creatures.

Also, just to double check that I'm understanding correctly, are [Gift] and [Knack] feats normally able to be selected when one gains a feat or only are they normally only available in these bonus feat slots? I've already expanded the number of feats to every odd level and every 3rd level with 2 feats at 1st level and I'm a bit leery of drowning them in feats to the point where they start to lose all meaning.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-05, 06:49 PM
I've already expanded the number of feats to every odd level and every 3rd level with 2 feats at 1st level and I'm a bit leery of drowning them in feats to the point where they start to lose all meaning.

That is a lot of feats. I'm not sure if it breaks things, but going from 7/10 to 18 is a large jump. That said, adding more good options for feats would alleviate the drowning, though not the power gain.

On another note, I wonder how adding an incarnum progression (or something similar) would effect this fix.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-05, 06:50 PM
Realms of Chaos, good idea. I'll try and write up some caster-specific stuff.


It is the act of choosing what areas to improve and what areas are OK to leave as is that makes it fun.
Which is why you still have feats, and classes, and PrCs, and some WBL to spend on specialization.


By analogy, slots are like money and feats/knacks/gifts are like products to buy. Having more products to choose from doesn't make you richer.
But I am making you richer. Perhaps the initial post wasn't clear. You get 12 feats overall, 5 of which must be Gifts or Knacks. To use your metaphor, I've added more products, but I've also given you more money to spend on them. All your normal feats, plus five extra-powerful ones.


Why 20% in particular though? Is that what you figured was left over after accounting for necessary items?
Nah, just an eyeball estimate.


What sort of issues would you foresee with 1/4, 1/3, or 1/2 WBL instead?
Power would go up, I think, although the RNG would remain more controlled than the default.


Is there a reason to shy away from enhancement bonuses other than their association with magic? I'm fairly OK with coming up with some explanation that gaining more HD means one absorbs more je ne sais quoi/magic/supernatural empowerment from the universe in certain ways if it might streamline the trouble with hitting incorporeal creatures.
Not really, although you might run into some weird interactions with antimagic fields.


Also, just to double check that I'm understanding correctly, are [Gift] and [Knack] feats normally able to be selected when one gains a feat or only are they normally only available in these bonus feat slots? I've already expanded the number of feats to every odd level and every 3rd level with 2 feats at 1st level and I'm a bit leery of drowning them in feats to the point where they start to lose all meaning.
You can select them using normal feat slots as well. But if you're worried about drowning in feats (and perhaps you should be), it'd be easy enough to turn 'em into a separate upgrade slot.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-05, 06:56 PM
But I am making you richer. Perhaps the initial post wasn't clear. You get 12 feats overall, 5 of which must be Gifts or Knacks. To use your metaphor, I've added more products, but I've also given you more money to spend on them. All your normal feats, plus five extra-powerful ones.

I got that. The problem is that you're also making us poorer at the same time. You've added 5 feats and subtracted 4/5 wbl. Given all of your changes, as a whole, the results might be more numerically powerful characters, but we have less resources to spend on interesting options (5 discreet units vs however many gp we could have gotten). The fact that some of those are also getting burned by "necessary" options that we might have been able to pick up as more temporary expenditures before (like ghost touch) also hurts.

Realms of Chaos
2014-07-05, 06:57 PM
Feat slots are a resource, feats are not. This makes sense because if you add more feats it doesn't inherently increase a character's power but if you add more feat slots it does (assuming, in both cases, that they have more dent feats to choose from then they have slots). Making knacks and gifts to their own thing wouldn't change this. The slot would still be the resource and the knack/gift would still be the option you spend your resource on.

By analogy, slots are like money and feats/knacks/gifts are like products to buy. Having more products to choose from doesn't make you richer.

Okay, I think that I can get where you're coming from, though I may have been moving down a different line of thought entirely. It's true that individual knack and gift feats aren't resources in and of themselves (at least from a character creation perspective). I do believe, however, that restrictions placed upon a feat slot can turn that feat slot into a distinct, if related, resource.

A bonus fighter feat slot and bonus metamagic feat slot, each of which can come be filled in dozens of ways, are still nearly assured to have general tendencies making them simultaneously weaker (again from character creation perspective) than a general bonus feat slot while distinct from each other. The combat feat slot will lead to an increase in combat ability while a metamagic feat slot will let you alter spells in some way.

Likewise, different types of feat slots can be compared to each other in terms of power within the game, at least on a general level, using mean power values of the individual constituents. It means something, for example, when I say that a bonus devotion feat slot is generally more desirable than a bonus luck feat slot for most characters. Further, like any average, it is possible for a single powerful feat to skew the value of a certain type of feat slot upward (though generally not downward). The mere existence of divine metamagic, for example, makes the presence of a bonus divine feat slot more valuable (to an extent).

What I am saying is that knacks and gifts, among the various forms of feat slots you could ask for, are certainly one of the more powerful and versatile varieties, capable of fulfilling a large number of functions for a large number of characters. It isn't as good as a general feat slot, of course, though freeing up those bonus feat slots for any purpose would worsen the issue of balancing item capabilities with your normal build feats.

Personally, in an ideal world, I think that the bonus gift/knack slots should be prepared gift/knack slots, with the first slot you acquire being spontaneously chosen each day. Even if you can't have the full benefits of all equipment at once, the ability to swap out powers on a daily basis to have optimal relevance (and to get one spontaneously if surprises show up) should about compensate the loss (with the creation of new gifts/knacks, of course).

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-05, 09:33 PM
Okay, I think that I can get where you're coming from, though I may have been moving down a different line of thought entirely. It's true that individual knack and gift feats aren't resources in and of themselves (at least from a character creation perspective). I do believe, however, that restrictions placed upon a feat slot can turn that feat slot into a distinct, if related, resource.

A bonus fighter feat slot and bonus metamagic feat slot, each of which can come be filled in dozens of ways, are still nearly assured to have general tendencies making them simultaneously weaker (again from character creation perspective) than a general bonus feat slot while distinct from each other. The combat feat slot will lead to an increase in combat ability while a metamagic feat slot will let you alter spells in some way.

Likewise, different types of feat slots can be compared to each other in terms of power within the game, at least on a general level, using mean power values of the individual constituents. It means something, for example, when I say that a bonus devotion feat slot is generally more desirable than a bonus luck feat slot for most characters. Further, like any average, it is possible for a single powerful feat to skew the value of a certain type of feat slot upward (though generally not downward). The mere existence of divine metamagic, for example, makes the presence of a bonus divine feat slot more valuable (to an extent).

What I am saying is that knacks and gifts, among the various forms of feat slots you could ask for, are certainly one of the more powerful and versatile varieties, capable of fulfilling a large number of functions for a large number of characters. It isn't as good as a general feat slot, of course, though freeing up those bonus feat slots for any purpose would worsen the issue of balancing item capabilities with your normal build feats.

Certainly, but I'm not sure how relevant that is. I was talking about overall versatility and counting them equal to general slots (which I think we can both agree are better then any sort of specialized slot).


Personally, in an ideal world, I think that the bonus gift/knack slots should be prepared gift/knack slots, with the first slot you acquire being spontaneously chosen each day. Even if you can't have the full benefits of all equipment at once, the ability to swap out powers on a daily basis to have optimal relevance (and to get one spontaneously if surprises show up) should about compensate the loss (with the creation of new gifts/knacks, of course).

Being able to change your feats daily would definitely help. That way you could pick up ghost touch when you go to the Haunted Catacombs and fly when you go to the Arie Rise. That said, I'm not sure I understand the distinction between prepared and spontaneously chosen each day.

Realms of Chaos
2014-07-05, 10:54 PM
Being able to change your feats daily would definitely help. That way you could pick up ghost touch when you go to the Haunted Catacombs and fly when you go to the Arie Rise. That said, I'm not sure I understand the distinction between prepared and spontaneously chosen each day.

When you sleep for 8 hours, you select all of your prepared ones for the next day. At any point during that day, you can declare what knack/gift will be your spontaneous gift (as free or swift action) and keep it until you next sleep for 8 hours. Or something like that. Most of your abilities would be changeable on a daily basis but require some guesswork while the last one is a "choose it as you need it" ability.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-05, 11:06 PM
That makes sense. Would you be able to change it multiple times or us it just blank until you declare it as a seift/what-ever?

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-05, 11:25 PM
Hmm, I think if we did go this route, I'd prefer something like the Erudite's unique powers per day. Seems to make at least a bit more fluff-sense than "prepared Knacks."

Coidzor
2014-07-05, 11:38 PM
Hmm, I think if we did go this route, I'd prefer something like the Erudite's unique powers per day. Seems to make at least a bit more fluff-sense than "prepared Knacks."

It seems to make a certain amount of sense, aye.


That is a lot of feats. I'm not sure if it breaks things, but going from 7/10 to 18 is a large jump. That said, adding more good options for feats would alleviate the drowning, though not the power gain.

On another note, I wonder how adding an incarnum progression (or something similar) would effect this fix.

18? I keep recounting and it seems like 15 each time. I don't let 3, 9, or 15 count twice as both a multiple of 3 and an odd numbered level, so I guess that'd account for it. :smallconfused: Granted, yes, 15 is a lot more than 7 or 10.

Something similar to Incarnum would allow for one to have a broader pool to draw from and then select by the day, at the least, and maybe have some ability to modulate how things are laid out even amongst that daily selection... hmm...

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-06, 12:01 AM
On another note, I wonder how adding an incarnum progression (or something similar) would effect this fix.
Gestalting everything with Incarnate would be a workable alternative to the Gift/Knack feats. I think both would be too much, but Incarnate gives you plenty of flexibility and minor magic effects. It requires a lot more system mastery, though*-- Meldshaping ain't easy to figure out even when it's the only thing you have going on.

*Which is the other reason I don't really like the idea of changing gift/knack feats regularly. Suddenly you have to know all of them, on top of all your spells or maneuvers or whatnot.

Fizban
2014-07-06, 02:51 AM
Bonuses that apply to every character in the same way all the time are just as boring as having everyone start with all 18s every single time. You might as well subtract the appropriate amount from every monster and call it a day.
It is the act of choosing what areas to improve and what areas are OK to leave as is that makes it fun.
Think of it this way: monsters get arbitrarily high armor bonuses and arbitrarily high attack and save bonuses through their inflated hit dice. Normally you have to use magic items to compensate, but instead this variant just says that people who level up get similar arbitrary bonuses. You could in fact just cut all monsters down to size (reducing natural armor, hit dice, and raw ability scores) such that they're on par with non-magic equipped PCs, but that takes more work than making a PC bonus table and is a lot less impressive. Which is better, a character that's so badass his number totals while naked are comparable to a Triceratops, or a Triceratops that barely has any more strength than an average human? Additionally, if you cut the monsters down they're a lot more easily killed by groups of level 1's and thus there's a lot less reason to keep adventurers around. Kinda like when you have the industrial revolution and suddenly iron age heroes don't make any sense in a world with rifle infantry that don't care about armor.

Gestalting everything with Incarnate would be a workable alternative to the Gift/Knack feats. I think both would be too much, but Incarnate gives you plenty of flexibility and minor magic effects. It requires a lot more system mastery, though*-- Meldshaping ain't easy to figure out even when it's the only thing you have going on.

*Which is the other reason I don't really like the idea of changing gift/knack feats regularly. Suddenly you have to know all of them, on top of all your spells or maneuvers or whatnot.
This. Incarnum is nifty, but even though it's "magic items" it really doesn't do well as a replacement and requires even more mastery than if you had to know the entire gift/knack list. Being able to change your whole gift/knack list would mean it's not replacing magic items anymore, it'd just a whole new mechanic to deal with and master/get sick of. I argue that magic items can be liquidated and switched in dire circumstances, but that's obviously not every day. A 1/day spontaneous option should be enough to account for that. I'd suggest a 1/week or 1/month that anyone can pull off, but that would seem awkward to me, so I'd stick with spontaneous options only if you take it intentionally.

SinsI
2014-07-06, 09:23 AM
Think of it this way: monsters get arbitrarily high armor bonuses and arbitrarily high attack and save bonuses through their inflated hit dice. Normally you have to use magic items to compensate, but instead this variant just says that people who level up get similar arbitrary bonuses. You could in fact just cut all monsters down to size (reducing natural armor, hit dice, and raw ability scores) such that they're on par with non-magic equipped PCs, but that takes more work than making a PC bonus table and is a lot less impressive. Which is better, a character that's so badass his number totals while naked are comparable to a Triceratops, or a Triceratops that barely has any more strength than an average human? Additionally, if you cut the monsters down they're a lot more easily killed by groups of level 1's and thus there's a lot less reason to keep adventurers around. Kinda like when you have the industrial revolution and suddenly iron age heroes don't make any sense in a world with rifle infantry that don't care about armor.

But why force those bonuses on ALL the characters?
Low scores, saves and abilities are not only liability - they are an opportunity for other characters to show off their ability to cooperate and cover those weaknesses; D&D is not a fight simulator for one character!

And players might not want them for roleplaying reasons. Why should a frail and weak geek Artificier that develops his constructs to protect himself from bullies suddenly become a fighting machine capable of killing Dire Wolves bare-handedly?
Same with DM - if the Wizard PC is stripped of all his items and thrown into a cell, he shouldn't be able to easily overpower the guards.
Just think - how much would OOTS lose if Belkar had that Owl's Wisdom bonus on a permanent basis since OOTS #58?

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-06, 10:14 AM
But why force those bonuses on ALL the characters?
D&D already says you get better as you level up, even at the things you don't focus on. All I'm doing is adjusting the rate of scaling to match how monsters are written. It's just much simpler to have everyone get the same bonuses than trying to balance some sort of point-buy thing, or adjusting all ten million monsters in the game.

Even without these bonuses, a 20th level wizard is a better swordsman than a low level fighter, and has better reflexes than a low-level rogue. A higher level artificer may have started as a frail geek, but by, oh, 10th level, he'll have more martial skill (BAB) and be hardier (Fort/HP) than any first-level mundane. And I would absolutely expect him to kick the crap out of a CR 3 monster single-handedly.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-06, 10:32 AM
This. Incarnum is nifty, but even though it's "magic items" it really doesn't do well as a replacement and requires even more mastery than if you had to know the entire gift/knack list. Being able to change your whole gift/knack list would mean it's not replacing magic items anymore, it'd just a whole new mechanic to deal with and master/get sick of. I argue that magic items can be liquidated and switched in dire circumstances, but that's obviously not every day. A 1/day spontaneous option should be enough to account for that. I'd suggest a 1/week or 1/month that anyone can pull off, but that would seem awkward to me, so I'd stick with spontaneous options only if you take it intentionally.

I disagree on several counts.

I think the main reason incarnum fails as a complete item replacement is because it lacks any capacity for ability bonuses and I'm not sure how well it works for weapon buffs.

Beyond that, I don't see how being able to switch your feats on a daily basis would make this fail as an item replacement. For starters, it doesn't actually require more system mastery. On the contrary, it requires less. Since you are able to keep your feats as they are, if you find a combination you like you can keep it and it'll be no different then not being able to change your feats. Conversely, if you don't have enough mastery to make that type of call at the outset you can try something and change it if it doesn't work out or if it's too niche for what the campaign is currently doing.

Also, keep in mind that this system removes a lot of granularity and gradation. With normal items, you can get more than five items and there are multiple items that can accomplish the same goal in different ways or with different investments. That isn't the case with this replacement. You only get 5 feats and they're of discreet effects at fixed power level. That means being able to change them is a lot more important than being able to change your items.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-06, 10:40 AM
Beyond that, I don't see how being able to switch your feats on a daily basis would make this fail as an item replacement.
It doesn't make it fail, it just makes it more complicated. Which is easier, playing (not building) a wizard, or playing a sorcerer?

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-06, 11:17 AM
It doesn't make it fail, it just makes it more complicated. Which is easier, playing (not building) a wizard, or playing a sorcerer?

The sorcerer, but that just supports my point. The sorc is easier because they don't need to try to figure out what they need to do at the beginning of the day. They can adapt as the situation comes to them. Being able to select feats daily would be the same over longer time horizons, rather then figure out what you'll need for the level in advance, you can change things up as you approach new situations. This magnifies the effect between "prepared" and "spontaneous" because you don't actually know how long a level will last and it's liable to cover a much broader range of scenarios then a single day of adventuring.

SinsI
2014-07-06, 12:16 PM
Even without these bonuses, a 20th level wizard is a better swordsman than a low level fighter, and has better reflexes than a low-level rogue. A higher level artificer may have started as a frail geek, but by, oh, 10th level, he'll have more martial skill (BAB) and be hardier (Fort/HP) than any first-level mundane. And I would absolutely expect him to kick the crap out of a CR 3 monster single-handedly.
He learns how to protect himself (HP and saves), and improves his ability to actually hit the target (BAB) - but he gets nothing on the damage front, no weapon/armor proficiencies and his physical stats are still abysmal.

Unarmed, weak and frail artificer (Str 6, Con 8) at level 10 has:
27.5 HP, +7 BAB, -4 penalty for nonproficiency(arguable), -2 Str penalty - so he only hits at +1, and deals 1d3-2 damage on unarmed strike.
Good luck beating 45 HP, AC 14 monstrosity that Bites at +11 for 1d8+10 damage.

With the above bonuses, artificer has:
37.5 HP, +7 BAB, -4 penalty for nonproficiency, -1 Str penalty - he hits at +2 +3 Competence bonus = +5, and deals 1d3-1 + 3 Competence = 1d3+2 damage on unarmed strike.

Victory is still unlikely, but not impossible.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-06, 01:30 PM
What about putting the stat bonuses on a schedule like the one legend uses, rather then free +2s.

For those who don't know, it looks like this.



Level
Ability 1
Ability 2
Ability 3
Ability 4


1
-
-
-
-


2
+2
-
-
-


3
-
-
-
-


4
-
-
-
-


5
-
+2
-
-


6
-
-
-
-


7
+2
-
+2
-


8
-
-
-
-


9
-
+2
-
-


10
-
-
-
+2


11
-
-
-
-


12
+2
-
-
-


13
-
-
+2
-


14
-
+2
-
-


15
-
-
-
+2


16
-
-
-
-


17
+2
-
-
-


18
-
+2
-
-


19
-
-
+2
-


20
-
-
-
+2



The main advantage to a schedule like this is that it forces to people to spread out their points out and create more generally capable characters, rather then just dumping everything into two stats. This is also slightly nicer to MAD characters, since the more SAD characters can't just hyper focus and get significantly larger numbers than them.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-06, 01:32 PM
The sorcerer, but that just supports my point.
No it doesn't. My point is that it's easier for a non-expert to play when he's not constantly making decisions.

Look, I understand where you're coming from. That's why I added Temporary Genius. But I don't want to do more than that, for several reasons:
It overcomplicates things
I can't reconcile the fluff
It makes characters less distinct
If a class needs magic items (or item replacements) to function correctly, it's not a good class-- a problem we should address at the source (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16920452&postcount=4).


He learns how to protect himself (HP and saves), and improves his ability to actually hit the target (BAB) - but he gets nothing on the damage front, no weapon/armor proficiencies and his physical stats are still abysmal.
So he's gone from "totally helpless" to "slightly less helpless?" I fail to see an issue here.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-06, 01:52 PM
No it doesn't. My point is that it's easier for a non-expert to play when he's not constantly making decisions.

Huh? They both make the same number of choices. They just make those choices at different times. I think you're going to have to elaborate on your position a bit more, rather than asking rhetorical questions that lead to answers other than the one you want.

Coidzor
2014-07-06, 02:11 PM
What about putting the stat bonuses on a schedule like the one legend uses, rather then free +2s.

For those who don't know, it looks like this.



Level
Ability 1
Ability 2
Ability 3
Ability 4


1
-
-
-
-


2
+2
-
-
-


3
-
-
-
-


4
-
-
-
-


5
-
+2
-
-


6
-
-
-
-


7
+2
-
+2
-


8
-
-
-
-


9
-
+2
-
-


10
-
-
-
+2


11
-
-
-
-


12
+2
-
-
-


13
-
-
+2
-


14
-
+2
-
-


15
-
-
-
+2


16
-
-
-
-


17
+2
-
-
-


18
-
+2
-
-


19
-
-
+2
-


20
-
-
-
+2



The main advantage to a schedule like this is that it forces to people to spread out their points out and create more generally capable characters, rather then just dumping everything into two stats. This is also slightly nicer to MAD characters, since the more SAD characters can't just hyper focus and get significantly larger numbers than them.

Showing some love to tertiary stats does seem like a nice idea, yeah.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-06, 02:51 PM
Huh? They both make the same number of choices. They just make those choices at different times. I think you're going to have to elaborate on your position a bit more, rather than asking rhetorical questions that lead to answers other than the one you want.
The sorcerer makes his choice once and then he's done. The wizard has to make the choice anew every morning.

My position is thus: I don't like constantly-resetting the bonus feats.

As I said in my last post, I think it adds unnecessary, obligatory complication to the game. This is all in addition to your normal class abilities, remember-- the game is complicated enough as it is, and I'd rather not make that worse. I've never really bought the "wizard is actually more newbie-friendly" argument, and I think the level-based retraining is enough to deal with the consequences of bad choices.
I can't think of any fluff-y way to explain constantly resetting bonus feats. Prepared casters are odd enough; I've got nothing for prepared feats.
If you choose from a list once, it's easy for characters to distinguish themselves. Regdar is immune to fear, Lidda can climb like a monkey, and Mialee can heal with a touch. But if you choose every morning, that distinction is lost. Everyone is immune to fear on Monday, when the party goes dragon-hunting. On Tuesday, when they fight ghosts, everyone loads up on Ghost Warrior. We start to circle back to one of my original problems with magic item rules, that everyone buys the same items.
I think the game is more interesting when you're not just throwing abilities at a problem. That's why Tier 1 classes are problematic-- they can solve any encounter with a little preparation. Preparing feats does the same thing, albeit to a lesser degree. I prefer players to have to think a bit and apply the abilities they do have, rather than resting for 8 hours to gain new ones.


That stat growth chart is a good idea, though.

Fizban
2014-07-07, 02:55 AM
I hate the stat growth table, it's basically the same thing as vow of poverty. You want to constrict people's options, how about forcing me to spread ability bonuses to extra stats that I don't care about?

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-07, 03:02 AM
I hate the stat growth table, it's basically the same thing as vow of poverty. You want to constrict people's options, how about forcing me to spread ability bonuses to extra stats that I don't care about?

Here's the thing though, some classes can get away with dumping all of their points into one or two stats. Others want, or need, significantly more than that. Unfortunately, the ones that need fewer stats also tend to be stronger, so by forcing a spread you can keep the power gap from getting too outrageous and help to create more well rounded characters.

Fizban
2014-07-07, 07:43 AM
I will counter that with the same line Grod used above (and hope that he reverts it to the original): deal with that problem at the source. This is a variant for reducing magic items, not fixing class balance.

If someone wants all their bonuses on only two scores magic items won't force them to diversify. High bonuses are geometrically expensive, but adding alternative bonus types can reduce that and you're never forced to buy a crappy +2 in a score you don't want, nor are you locked in to buying them in a specific order. Some have argued that being forced to take a bonus on attacks and damage hurts their character, but 1: that's there for simplicity, and 2: attack and defense should go up with level when you level up by fighting, the standard method of gaining xp in DnD.

I'm basically just arguing the opposite: some people think having low attack and AC defines their less-fightery character, well I disagree. A character is defined by his ability scores far more than his class: in fact every optimized character chooses their class based on their ability scores (the player assigns the scores for the class they want to play, but the character grew up with those scores and picked a path that used them well). A wizard that spends a lot of time fighting may get better at fighting with more attack and AC, but he's still a wizard, and he's a wizard because of his ability scores. RAW, BAB already goes up weather you like it or not, but your strength never goes up unless you want it to. So forced ability diversification is far worse than forced attack/AC bonus for messing with character concepts.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-07, 04:44 PM
I will counter that with the same line Grod used above (and hope that he reverts it to the original): deal with that problem at the source. This is a variant for reducing magic items, not fixing class balance.
Good points. And, you know, looking at the chart again... it doesn't actually slow you down that much. My original method would cap at +10 to one ability score, while this limits you to +8... and is more complicated... yeah. Reverting.

EDIT: Added a few more Knacks and Gifts-- some for mages, some for miss chances. (Conservative Caster, Knoweldge Reservoir, Following Dark, Metamagic Specialist, Prolific Caster, Ethereal Instability, and Mystic Inspiration).

Realms of Chaos
2014-07-07, 11:27 PM
A couple of notes regarding temporary genius:

1) You may want to specify the following at the end to avoid abuse:

Special: Knacks or Gifts that require specific choices upon selection may not be gained in this way.

Otherwise, you could choose different spells for your "staff" every day or keep switching out your SLA for a new one.

2) You may want to put a limit on the number of times you can select it. While taking it cuts off the level 15 knacks and gifts, it is still probably the best knack/feat available 90% of the time. As you only get three bonus knack/gifts after 9th level, maybe limit it to being selected 3 times? Otherwise, things can get pretty crazy... especially using your low-tier benefit notes (CW samurai with Temporary Genius x 16 :smalleek:)

Also, just noticed that the ability for ignoring incorporeality/DR/regen is finally up. Awesome.

As ghost touch is a feat that effectively guarantees ignoring incorporeality, could we get something similar for regeneration? Maybe something like:

Troll Slayer [Knack]
Prerequisites: Character Level 12th
Benefits: Damage you deal ignores all forms of regeneration. Any creature you damage has any fast healing and/or regeneration it possesses suppressed for one round and cannot benefit from Conjuration (healing) effects during this time unless the caster succeeds on a Caster Level check (DC = 15 + 1/2 character level).

Well, maybe not exactly like that but something similar, maybe.

Coidzor
2014-07-10, 11:55 PM
What do you all think of [Gift] and [Knack] feats being allowed as alternatives to Bonus Exalted Feats from Vow of Poverty in a more standard wealth game, by the by? Or in a game using this entire set of supplemental rules?

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-11, 02:26 AM
What do you all think of [Gift] and [Knack] feats being allowed as alternatives to Bonus Exalted Feats from Vow of Poverty in a more standard wealth game, by the by? Or in a game using this entire set of supplemental rules?

Without these rules, I suspect they'd make VoP better, but not particularly broken. They might actually push it into being a viable option. With these rules, VoP should probably get banned, because at that point it's basically just a bunch of free power for good characters.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-11, 12:34 PM
What do you all think of [Gift] and [Knack] feats being allowed as alternatives to Bonus Exalted Feats from Vow of Poverty in a more standard wealth game, by the by? Or in a game using this entire set of supplemental rules?

Without these rules, I suspect they'd make VoP better, but not particularly broken. They might actually push it into being a viable option. With these rules, VoP should probably get banned, because at that point it's basically just a bunch of free power for good characters.
Pretty much this. VoP gives you the (approximate) numbers you need; these feats should give you the missing special abilities.



A couple of notes regarding temporary genius:
Good calls.


As ghost touch is a feat that effectively guarantees ignoring incorporeality, could we get something similar for regeneration? Maybe something like:
Ehh, sure, why not.

FreakyCheeseMan
2014-07-11, 06:31 PM
So... leaving aside for the moment that the explanation for gifts basically gets rid of a "Mundane" character, a couple of the knacks are really out there. In particular, gaining the ability to breath underwater, and gaining a burrow speed equal to your movement speed...

But, for the system in general, I've got several issues.

First, mechanically, these seem really unbalanced. A whole lot of them give away stuff that magic items could give you "Sometimes, for a little while" as permanent features. (Examples: Burrow speed, large size.)

Others are things that look like just about everyone would take them (Example: Flight.) This seems like it's just re-creating one of the problems with basic magic items - that everyone has a set they feel obligated to take, and thus can't explore the fun stuff.

Second, thematically, this really messes with a lot of character builds. I've been in favor of reducing magic items for a while, because yeah, it's weird that everyone has to have stuff to increase their strength, intelligence, saves, attack bonus, etc, in order to be functional - basically, it makes it seem like they're not competent, just rich, which isn't how anyone wants to think of their characters. It also means that there isn't as great a range of character types can be played, as we can pretty much never have poor or fiercely self-reliant characters.

But, when it comes to adding magical abilities, that's different - now, you're effectively *reducing* the range of playable characters. Sometimes, people like to play "natural" characters - one that are entirely mundane in and of themselves, even though they live in a magical world. This archetype doesn't get broken by using magical items - that's just being pragmatic and resourceful, not intrinsically magical. But, with these changes, those builds are no longer viable. I basically have to play some sort of magical mutant, which is even more specific than the obscenely rich hobo I was playing before.

Third, I just don't think this works. The best thing about items is that they're versatile - they can be quickly switched, or provided by the grace of the DM, to patch over a hole that wasn't recognized during creation, or to switch out abilities before a big fight. These feats don't do that - I might get underwater breathing, and then the next adventure path takes us out of the ocean and makes us start fighting ghosts, so now I'm screwed because I didn't take the ghost touch one. Magic items give you the option of swapping your items for a more appropriate loadout, which is reasonable and usually in-character. This system gives, what... wait a few levels and (in character) hope that you happen to get another of those weird mutations adventurers keep getting? Players will still end up wanting and needing magical items - they'll just have a whole host of weird, unbalanced powers as well.

Finally, this limits DM options. It's frowned upon, sure, but taking away or giving magical items is better than doing the same with innate abilities, to correct balance issues or disrupt a game-breaking combo. It also prevents most of the plots that involve temporarily taking away items, and making players think outside the box to function from that limited position until they get them back.

Long story short, I think it's better to stick with the simpler and easier task of getting rid of +X items, and leaving the "Entirely new capabilities" to regular magical items. That still leaves the issue of "Players have to be rich", but even that can be relaxed a bit - so long as the DM is willing to build encounters that don't require stuff the players just don't have.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-11, 07:22 PM
So... leaving aside for the moment that the explanation for gifts basically gets rid of a "Mundane" character, a couple of the knacks are really out there. In particular, gaining the ability to breath underwater, and gaining a burrow speed equal to your movement speed...
Breathing underwater is a Gift, and the burrow speed requires tools for anything harder than dirt. But that's a minor issue

But, for the system in general, I've got several issues.


First, mechanically, these seem really unbalanced. A whole lot of them give away stuff that magic items could give you "Sometimes, for a little while" as permanent features. (Examples: Burrow speed, large size.)
If you can point to specific feats and say "this is unbalanced for the level you get it," I'd love to hear that sort of feedback.


Second, thematically, this really messes with a lot of character builds. I've been in favor of reducing magic items for a while, because yeah, it's weird that everyone has to have stuff to increase their strength, intelligence, saves, attack bonus, etc, in order to be functional - basically, it makes it seem like they're not competent, just rich, which isn't how anyone wants to think of their characters. It also means that there isn't as great a range of character types can be played, as we can pretty much never have poor or fiercely self-reliant characters.
Eh, you can stick to Knacks if it bothers you-- though it looks like I do need a few more high-level ones-- but fair point. I'll add a variant on "Gifts from items." (Yeah, it's kind of back-asswards to have a no-item fix simulate magic items, but I think it'd work better than some characters using the fix and others using the RAW.)


Third, I just don't think this works. The best thing about items is that they're versatile - they can be quickly switched, or provided by the grace of the DM, to patch over a hole that wasn't recognized during creation, or to switch out abilities before a big fight. These feats don't do that - I might get underwater breathing, and then the next adventure path takes us out of the ocean and makes us start fighting ghosts, so now I'm screwed because I didn't take the ghost touch one. Magic items give you the option of swapping your items for a more appropriate loadout, which is reasonable and usually in-character. This system gives, what... wait a few levels and (in character) hope that you happen to get another of those weird mutations adventurers keep getting? Players will still end up wanting and needing magical items - they'll just have a whole host of weird, unbalanced powers as well.
We already spent some time arguing about this. If you scroll up the page a bit, you'll see my final rejection of the idea. Basically, as I see it, I left enough WBL for consumable items, and permanent gear is too expensive to be swapping out on any sort of regular basis. (Every time you do, you're losing 50% of the item's value-- that's not sustainable).

I will go ahead and codify downtime-retraining as a variant for those it bothers, though.


Finally, this limits DM options. It's frowned upon, sure, but taking away or giving magical items is better than doing the same with innate abilities, to correct balance issues or disrupt a game-breaking combo. It also prevents most of the plots that involve temporarily taking away items, and making players think outside the box to function from that limited position until they get them back.
This is not a class balance fix, and I hate that sort of plot.


Long story short, I think it's better to stick with the simpler and easier task of getting rid of +X items, and leaving the "Entirely new capabilities" to regular magical items. That still leaves the issue of "Players have to be rich", but even that can be relaxed a bit - so long as the DM is willing to build encounters that don't require stuff the players just don't have.
You can use only the static bonuses, then.

FreakyCheeseMan
2014-07-12, 09:16 PM
Breathing underwater is a Gift, and the burrow speed requires tools for anything harder than dirt. But that's a minor issue

I might have mis-read the water one, and I see you've changed the burrow speed one.



If you can point to specific feats and say "this is unbalanced for the level you get it," I'd love to hear that sort of feedback.

The examples at the end of the section you quoted? Trip build fighters go a long way out of their way to get large size on a reliable basis - giving it away as a permanent feature is extreme, especially as it qualifies you for War Hulk. A permanent burrow speed is also rife for abuse - against almost all enemies, that's "I'm immune to everything whenever I want." Mages can pop up and summon/buff, fighters can pull in and out of combat at will... it's like a way better version of flying. I once had a nasty boss fight with a burrowing caster that did nothing but burrow around under the battle, popping up to use "Revenant" on the hulking BBEG every time he went down.

I'm iffy about a lot of the rest of them, but they mostly come down to specific wording of the feat, and that's a case of tl;dr right now.



This is not a class balance fix, and I hate that sort of plot.

I'm not saying it should be a class balance fix - I'm saying it gets in the way of the DM's ability to fix balance issues independently. As for hating that kind of plot... obviously, I don't know your specific tastes, but what I generally hear is that people hate that kind of plot because their characters aren't really competent without their +X items. So, a good items fix might make those plots fun again.

Obviously it depends on player and DM style, but (as both player and DM), I really love plots where options and resources are restricted, and creative thinking is required to meet what would normally be trivial challenges. Say... melee-heavy party getting trapped in a dungeon where one of the enemies is a flying creature that keeps hit-and-running them, and they have to come up with a creative/tactical solution involving spider climb, jump checks, modifying terrain, or using area denial/bait to force/lure it into tighter passages.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-12, 09:33 PM
I might have mis-read the water one, and I see you've changed the burrow speed one.
Huh? Dwarven Delver has always been like that.

The examples at the end of the section you quoted? Trip build fighters go a long way out of their way to get large size on a reliable basis[/QUOTE]
Well, sure, but is it inbalanced to be Large at 9th level? I don't think so.


A permanent burrow speed is also rife for abuse - against almost all enemies, that's "I'm immune to everything whenever I want."
That's a fair point for Earthglide, but Dwarven Delver always leaves a tunnel, through which enemies can easily target you.


I'm not saying it should be a class balance fix - I'm saying it gets in the way of the DM's ability to fix balance issues independently. As for hating that kind of plot... obviously, I don't know your specific tastes, but what I generally hear is that people hate that kind of plot because their characters aren't really competent without their +X items. So, a good items fix might make those plots fun again.
A tactical challenge such as low ceilings is one thing; fiat-removing significant abilities is another. Personally, I think it's contrived and unfun when a game says "hey, you know all those cool powers and fancy weapons you spent the last ten hours/sessions/months earning? You don't get to use those right now. But the Christmas Tree is a subjective problem; if you don't think it's a problem, you're probably going to find problems with a "fix."

FreakyCheeseMan
2014-07-13, 12:52 AM
Huh? Dwarven Delver has always been like that.

I mean, didn't you change it from knack to gift? If not, you really should - digging at your move speed is insane, that's far less realistic than flying by flapping your arms really hard.


Well, sure, but is it inbalanced to be Large at 9th level? I don't think so.

To be large without having to do anything else with the rest of your build to become so? I would call that unbalanced. Especially when you then pile on other effects on top of that, you can easily get a truly absurd reach, and turn any sort of mellee into a complete joke.



That's a fair point for Earthglide, but Dwarven Delver always leaves a tunnel, through which enemies can easily target you.

Okay, so a tunnel... that leaves me with a lot of questions. The rest of the party can follow you, I presume? Does it work for overland travel? If you, you can use it to bypass just about any overland defenses, all kinds of encounters, use it to set up full-party ambushes, not to mention the tunnels themselves being kinda weird features to be spamming around the battlefield. Do people fall into them? What's it like to target through them? How do you move through a straight vertical shaft? How do other people? I can see a lot of ways to build an entirely class/playstyle around this feat.



A tactical challenge such as low ceilings is one thing; fiat-removing significant abilities is another. Personally, I think it's contrived and unfun when a game says "hey, you know all those cool powers and fancy weapons you spent the last ten hours/sessions/months earning? You don't get to use those right now.

Whereas that's the sort of routine-breaking wild card that I love. It makes me figure out how my character functions when my plan for him goes off-rails, which lets me explore the character from new angles, both mechanically and in terms of roleplay.


But the Christmas Tree is a subjective problem; if you don't think it's a problem, you're probably going to find problems with a "fix."

I think it's a problem, but maybe a different one than you do. My explanation of the problem would be several fold:

A: Basically everyone makes the same choice in terms of items, if they want to keep up. This is boring.
B: Characters are getting their core competencies (ability to hit things; intelligence; etc) from items, rather than innate abilities. That sucks from a herorism standpoint - the fighter should be a good fighter, not be holding a sword that would make Mr. Magoo into a killing machine.
C: The game doesn't allow for poor heroes, or plotlines where money is a concern on a mundane level. (I can't play as, say, a single father trying to make sure his kid doesn't have to grow up in the Orc Ghetto, because by second level, I can pretty much buy the entire ghetto.)
D: Because of A, no one gets to spend money on cool, interesting magic items that give you some sort of a neat quirk.

Fizban
2014-07-13, 03:54 AM
I am in agreement that Dwarven Delver is straight up bonkers. Burrow speeds usually don't come any higher than 20' for anything that's not part earth elemental, and that's on a Purple Worm which has a 20' space. Being able to go through stone when only a few very specific burrowers can go through stone (most of them part-earth creatures that should have Earth Glide since their "burrow" is exactly the same) is also huge, and the amount of material moved to create that much tunnel that fast is insane. Burrow 10' with no tunnel through dirt only. Doesn't invalidate barriers for the whole party, doesn't move literally tons of rock in seconds, and people can still wreck you just fine with readied actions even if you don't leave a tunnel. Weather or not you can breathe down there is yet to be decided. Or if you really want the tunnel, the reduced speed means they'll actually catch up with you.

Coidzor
2014-07-13, 10:21 PM
Even if it's not at the level of a tactical option and is more at the level of a strategic one (like it takes 2x, 5x, or 10x the time to make a usable tunnel as it does to just burrow), some access to burrowing is pretty interesting, especially since the default rules for mining and the like are so slow. So I don't think it should be nixed, even if the level it's available is rejiggered and the exact rules text is rebalanced.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-13, 10:51 PM
How does 5 ft/full-round action, level 9 sound? Too much nerf, or not enough?

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-14, 12:05 AM
How does 5 ft/full-round action, level 9 sound? Too much nerf, or not enough?

Given the tiny number of feats you get and their relatively permanent nature, that sounds like too much of a nerf. It would be fine-ish (if a bit weak) if you could change them daily, but other wise you're giving up too much for a very situational ability.

tarkisflux
2014-07-16, 01:27 AM
Late to party, digging up some older stuff to comment on.


To be large without having to do anything else with the rest of your build to become so? I would call that unbalanced. Especially when you then pile on other effects on top of that, you can easily get a truly absurd reach, and turn any sort of mellee into a complete joke.
Honestly, in most games I've played tripstars and even melee in general is a complete joke by 9 (only slight hyperbole). Too much flying and reach. And if the ceiling is limited, it's often limited to the size of the foes. Getting up to their level of reach doesn't seem problematic in the slightest. So I'd have to disagree with you completely here, but it sounds like our experiences or preferences are probably a bit different.

Still, it doesn't seem hard to write this up as being under the effect of something like enlarge person, so it overlaps at least one size increase spell and reduces the total size accumulation potential.

@Stat Bonus Schedule
I also prefer the current setup to the Legend chart, because I prefer a bit of flexibility in my advancement. If there's a desire to keep them from all going to the same place, you could simply add a rider that you can't raise an attribute to be higher than 10 or 12 points more than your lowest one. You still get dump stats, but the size of the dump is sharply curbed after mid levels.

@Not Enough Powers
I'm inclined to agree with this (yes, even with the left over WBL Grod), but I don't know how you could resolve it without adding substantial complexity or power to things.

I'm not willing to take a significant power hit and don't think anyone else should be either, so just handing out more that you can use all the time is right out. But if you're willing to take a complexity hit, you could hand out knacks and gifts as plot rewards in addition to gaining them as bonuses every 4 levels. Then require players to activate them by binding or practicing or whatevering them daily, but keep the total number limited to 1 per 4 levels. Write up a new feat "Extra Gift" or whatever that lets people set their feat slots on fire to have additional knacks/gifts available. I'm not sure if I care about restricting activated knacks/gifts to only those you could have selected when you got the slot (so a 4th or lower, an 8th or lower, etc.) or not though, but you should have to activate any prereqs for a knack/gift before you can use it (so no earthglide without dwarven delver).

I'm not sure it's worth the complexity hit, but I'm not sure it isn't either.

Fizban
2014-07-16, 02:55 AM
How does 5 ft/full-round action, level 9 sound? Too much nerf, or not enough?
For tunneling that should be fine, I'd keep at least a 5' burrow speed in it so it is useable as a combat option. I'd never take tunneling by itself. I think burrowing spells come on around 2nd or 3rd and Move Earth is 4th? Level 9 is fine.

you could hand out knacks and gifts as plot rewards
I was thinking the same response for people that don't want them to just spring up out of nowhere, and if you're doing it that way you can always give out a little more here or there if you think they need/deserve it. A "paladin" who's actually just a fighter blessed with healing powers in recognition for his deeds sounds good to me (I'm aware he's using the weird con based fast healing thing but I'd do it with guardinal lay on hands myself.) Or bad guys with dark pacts and whatnot, or people who've been magically experimented on, etc.

Susano-wo
2014-07-18, 08:38 PM
Like this quite a bit. Haven't looked at the gifts/knacks to know if they are balanced, but I like the idea.

Only question is: how do you figure costs for magic weapons? I'd come upon the idea of adding attack and defense bonuses instead of making people buy +X gear, but couldn't figure out exactly how to adjudicate how reduced weapon costs would be.
When you are talking +1 weapon with an ability, it simple--you can just drop 2000gp to balance it out. But what about when you have the level appropriate for a +2 weapon? should you just drop 8000 off of any weapon price now? Which leads to the verisimilitude shattering concept of different prices for different buyers. A buyer of a, say flaming, sword would pay 6000gp if they had a +1 inherent bonus, with the same sword costing 10000gp if a higher level person bought it.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-07-19, 10:50 AM
Given the tiny number of feats you get and their relatively permanent nature, that sounds like too much of a nerf. It would be fine-ish (if a bit weak) if you could change them daily, but other wise you're giving up too much for a very situational ability.
Mmm, true. Hmm... 5 ft move speed, with bonuses for high strength scores? (Say, +5 ft/+3 Str)


Still, it doesn't seem hard to write this up as being under the effect of something like enlarge person, so it overlaps at least one size increase spell and reduces the total size accumulation potential.
Fair enough.


@Stat Bonus Schedule
I also prefer the current setup to the Legend chart, because I prefer a bit of flexibility in my advancement. If there's a desire to keep them from all going to the same place, you could simply add a rider that you can't raise an attribute to be higher than 10 or 12 points more than your lowest one. You still get dump stats, but the size of the dump is sharply curbed after mid levels.
I've got a rider saying you can't boost the same stat twice in a row, so that keeps you from putting more than half your points in the same place.


@Not Enough Powers
I'm inclined to agree with this (yes, even with the left over WBL Grod), but I don't know how you could resolve it without adding substantial complexity or power to things.
How does this look with the new Downtime Retraining variant?


But if you're willing to take a complexity hit, you could hand out knacks and gifts as plot rewards in addition to gaining them as bonuses every 4 levels.
I can dig it.


Only question is: how do you figure costs for magic weapons? I'd come upon the idea of adding attack and defense bonuses instead of making people buy +X gear, but couldn't figure out exactly how to adjudicate how reduced weapon costs would be.
Just ignore the "must be at least +1" bit when enchanting magic gear. A keen flaming longsword would effectively be a +2 weapon, and cost 8,000 gold. Wild armor would effectively be a suit of +3 armor, and cost 9,000 gold.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-19, 11:48 AM
About the stat schedual: I'd like to point out that with the legend schedule, you can boost your primary 2 stats to almost the same level as the current format, but it also gives you some extra points that you can (and have to) use to boost your tertiary and quaternary stats. I think that's preferable on 2 points. First, it's more realistic. If you're adventuring, you're doing lots of things, you're not just going to exercise your mind or your sword arm, you're going to be hiking through the wilderness and dungeons, scrabbling over difficult terrain, making life or death decision, and negotiating with antediluvian forces. Increasing more than your primary 2 stats better reflects this. More importantly, in normal 3.x, if you need to boost a secondary stat you can by an item for it. That's not an option here, so if you have a mad class or need to improve as save, you're out of luck.

tarkisflux
2014-07-20, 12:02 PM
How does this look with the new Downtime Retraining variant?

I want to talk back the 'not enough' complaint a bit though, because I realize that I'd need to a do a large analysis of WBL levels and remaining item costs and so on before I really had a leg to stand on. It feels a bit restricted, but I have no idea if it would be in practice.

Retraining reduces restrictions though, or at least the appearance of them in this case. Not in the same way as being able to hot-swap items / gifts would, because downtime is a quantity that varies from game to game (in the game I've been playing monthly for the last couple of years I basically have none of it and wouldn't be able to retrain, but I'm not claiming that's representative), but it's probably adequate.

You may want to just redo the WBL table completely though, rather than go with a multiplier. The current setup gives you very little to work with at low levels, pushing back wand / scroll / potion / misc consumable acquisition in ways that I think are pretty weird and potentially unwanted. Similarly, high levels might need less than you've allotted since they aren't dealing with huge weapon and armor and other geometric increases (I'm not sure though, and really don't want to go through doing item cost analysis).


About the stat schedual: I'd like to point out that with the legend schedule, you can boost your primary 2 stats to almost the same level as the current format, but it also gives you some extra points that you can (and have to) use to boost your tertiary and quaternary stats. I think that's preferable on 2 points. First, it's more realistic. If you're adventuring, you're doing lots of things, you're not just going to exercise your mind or your sword arm, you're going to be hiking through the wilderness and dungeons, scrabbling over difficult terrain, making life or death decision, and negotiating with antediluvian forces. Increasing more than your primary 2 stats better reflects this. More importantly, in normal 3.x, if you need to boost a secondary stat you can by an item for it. That's not an option here, so if you have a mad class or need to improve as save, you're out of luck.

The Legend schedule denies you the ability to ever increase a 5th or 6th stat. There may well be few cases where you want to, but if you did want to "you're out of luck", as you say above. The Legend case also offers fewer total increases (+28 vs. +44). Grod's setup allows you to get +14 to two of them and +4 to the other four if you put every selective boost into two stats (because you have to alternate). Or you could spread around a couple of the selective boosts to get +10 to two and +6 to the other four. Either case is substantially better than the +8 to two +6 to two more than the Legend format gives. And you're allowed to change your priorities as you level in ways that the locked progression of Legend doesn't allow.

Grod's solution better reflects the varied life an adventurer leads by boosting all of your attributes. It also better reflects the specialization that people want to write into their characters. I don't really care for the sort of concentration that it allows and would like to see them broken up a bit more, but otherwise... Grod's setup is more points and more flexibility and more attributes increasing. I don't think it's even a contest.

r2d2go
2014-08-16, 02:34 AM
Quick disclaimer: I think it's great that you've spent the time doing this and I'm grateful you have :smallsmile: Please don't take the criticisms too personally or negatively, I'm just trying to point some things out to help you polish and tinker with things. Anyway...

I have to strongly agree with a few people with the competence bonus thing - the game is balanced to have certain bonuses not stack, and the determining factor is the type. "Competence" and "enhancement" are literally just names - why make the balancing either off or much harder on yourself when you could just use the existing measures? You could rename them for all anyone cares, and say "these function as _____ bonus". I would make weapons and armors enhancement bonuses and saving throws resistance bonuses, even if you renamed or reflavored them. And it's not just magic items that do this - many spells use similar bonuses that shouldn't stack, but now do. As you say yourself "the game is balanced around having those items." That's not just the items themselves, but the interactions with everything.

There's other, smaller problems with this as well. One is that you make the power vary throughout - for example, at 6th level you get a feat, an ability boost and a competence bonus, while you get nothing at 7th level. Another is that you actually encourage the use of weak magic items to make your numbers even bigger, which goes against the original intent.

For example, a 12th level character by your rules has 22000 gp of things. With that he can easily buy +1 Full Plate and a +1 Heavy Shield for only 14% of his WBL, bringing his AC to 30. Under normal rules, the same character would have to buy +5 Full Plate and a +5 Heavy Shield, costing 59% of his WBL - more than four times as much.

Similarly, you give absolutely ludicrous ability boosts. By 10th level, a wizard could have 26 Int without a single magic item, while a normal wizard is stuck with 20 Int, at most 26 after spending most of her WBL. I would reduce the ability boosts to match normal costs - that is, +2 per five levels or so. Perhaps replace some with +1 to all, which would cost less and slightly balance classes.

Another troublesome item is that, as said, you don't cover everything magic items do. For example, Regeneration comes a lot earlier than 18th level, and some can't be bypassed easily with cheap magic items. For example Ice Devils (CR 13) and Horned Devils (CR 15) have regeneration only overcome by good aligned weapons, so if your Cleric didn't prepare that spell you're a bit screwed. Normally at level 15 you've got 200,000 gold - carrying around a +1 Holy _____ costs you less than a tenth of your WBL. With your system, it costs half your WBL. To prepare for contingencies, the party has to spend a greater part of their money and possibly leave things out because they aren't thoroughly covered. Of course, that one example can be covered by taking a knack (Troll Slayer), but do you really want to spend a pile of feats for every enemy just to not get totally hosed by certain enemies? I would cover more of this earlier, giving free movement bonuses and the like.

Many knacks/gifts are also pretty unbalanced. The biggest one I can see is Giant Growth. Like seriously, woah, have you read "Improving Monsters"? You just gave the level 9 character +8 strength, +4 Con, and -2 Dex, plus doubled reach, for the cost of a feat. Later that increases to +16 strength, +8 con and -4 Dex plus tripled reach. A more minor note is that you don't describe shrinking back down.

All in all, this is a good base and a good idea, but needs a lot of polishing, fixing, and editing. Again, thank you for doing this, and please don't take this too negatively.

infinitetech
2014-10-06, 02:58 AM
this is a good start, but i think you need a system that allows you to earn the gifts and things outside of generic level progression, also still a bunch of general work to be done, to figure out what is missing do this, play a mock game with 6 peasant class people, see what happens repeat with wizard, rouge, warrior, monk, druid, cleric, and archery legionar, you will notice gaps, there are rather big gaps in several places, i still dont understand making low magic settings while not removing the base magic classes, it always seems like one kinda needs the other for the most part, also some magic items might be research-able?

Grod_The_Giant
2014-10-09, 12:08 AM
i still dont understand making low magic settings while not removing the base magic classes, it always seems like one kinda needs the other for the most part
This isn't for a low-magic setting, as evidenced by the fact that everyone is gaining magic powers. It's for low magic item games, when you don't want characters to need dozens of boring, cookie-cutter magic items to have level-relevant numbers and options.

infinitetech
2014-10-09, 12:47 AM
thats not what i meant, i mean, if people are going to be researching spells then they will be making things to hold them longer, simple logic there, so why do people want to make magic items so rare when they would more likely be nearly every item, either way good job, like were this is going and so forth

brian 333
2014-10-09, 10:56 AM
The only thing I would add is that changing from one build to another would be an effort on the part of the PC, and not just an automatic 'down time' thing. So I'd tie it to his Exp. With his total Exp as a Retrain Pool, the player can spend his level's worth of Exp per week, (1000 at level 1, or 10,000 at level 10,) to alter his build.

Let's say that feats cost 1000 exp to retrain, gifts and knacks 2000, and stat boosts 5000 per point. Spending these Exp points does not reduce the character's total Exp, but reduces his pool for the purpose of rebuilding.

So, for example, a level 10 character wishes to retrain and has a total of 45,000 Exp earned. He may spend 10,000 per week, which would mean if he spent his total Exp pool on retraining he would spend four and one half weeks retraining. But in this case, he wants to redistribute one Ability Point, (5000xp) one Gift, (2000xp) and one Feat, (1000xp) for a total of 8000 Exp from his Retrain Pool. This retraining requires one week to complete, and when he is done his Retrain Pool is reduced to 37,000 Exp, but his character's earned Exp is unchanged at 45,000. Later rebuilds may also reduce his Retrain Pool further, and a wise player may wish to keep some of his Retrain Pool available for later use.

You could change the training time to days or months instead of weeks, depending upon your campaign's needs, and of course, adjust the cost of retraining any particular fact of your character's build. You could limit what can be changed to only those things gained by your system, such that the base character class abilities, feats, and skills may not be altered this way. (Paladins can't retrain Turn Undead, for example.)

At any rate, this allows the creator of the system to set upper limits on what the player wishes to alter and what time is required to do so.