What is there for a high-level character to do?

[Nettlekid]

Let's say you're high level, level 20 or even low Epic, in a world that has high powered enemies, the occasional visit from the gods, and NPCs of a wide spectrum of power levels but most, if not all, lower than yourself. What's a character's goal at that point? With trivial displays of might or magic they can garner all the fame they could desire. WBL alone makes them richer than kings and dragons. They can fight monsters for fun, but either the high power makes it rocket tag or it ends up being the same as it was at first level. What's there to do? Sure you can make your own demiplane and spend the next thousand years cheating death and researching spells, but where's the actual fun in roleplaying that?

Similarly, what's the role to fill in a party? If we assume that just about any battle role is easily filled, anyone can be a tank or DPS, anyone who can UMD a wand of Guidance of the Avatar can be a skillmonkey, then how can a character carve an interesting niche?

[Kazudo]

That's when it's time to do other things.

I had a bard/rogue/factotum who actually created and instituted the world's first national Banking system, and within thirty years or so controlled 3/4 of the nation's wealth pretty much by his own hand. Did I get anything for it? Naw. I was 20th level in nonepic, so any XP I got was not a problem. I had plenty of wealth, enough to buy a good chunk of the continent, and I pretty much owned the whole government. Not a bad haul.

Alternatively, my wizard started a wizarding school. That was fun.

My fighter actually got into the military and worked his way up the ranks to being the nation's general within a decade, made military victory a joke, then wrote a book about military prowess.

Had a Swordsage who created a dojo...


It requires some creativity on everybody's part, but it can be really fun as long as you understand that, for the most part, the rules books get to sit aside and pout in the corner.

Aside from that, killing stuff, amassing loot, taking seats of power, the usual magical murderhobo stuff.

[Starmage21]

Let's say you're high level, level 20 or even low Epic, in a world that has high powered enemies, the occasional visit from the gods, and NPCs of a wide spectrum of power levels but most, if not all, lower than yourself. What's a character's goal at that point? With trivial displays of might or magic they can garner all the fame they could desire. WBL alone makes them richer than kings and dragons. They can fight monsters for fun, but either the high power makes it rocket tag or it ends up being the same as it was at first level. What's there to do? Sure you can make your own demiplane and spend the next thousand years cheating death and researching spells, but where's the actual fun in roleplaying that?

Similarly, what's the role to fill in a party? If we assume that just about any battle role is easily filled, anyone can be a tank or DPS, anyone who can UMD a wand of Guidance of the Avatar can be a skillmonkey, then how can a character carve an interesting niche?

Become involved in politics. You have craploads of power, sure, but its all pretty much entirely personal in scale. You could single-handedly melt a castle and all of its defenders, but what about the other ones in the nation?

Take on threats which affect the entire material plane. This is the entire premise behind some of the abominations in the ELH. They've been locked away from the world, and now one is free.

[Kazudo]

Become involved in politics. You have craploads of power, sure, but its all pretty much entirely personal in scale. You could single-handedly melt a castle and all of its defenders, but what about the other ones in the nation?

Take on threats which affect the entire material plane. This is the entire premise behind some of the abominations in the ELH. They've been locked away from the world, and now one is free.

Which reminds me! There's also Elder Evils. Which is a good thing to do when it's time to run things down.

[Nettlekid]

I'm asking more as a player, not a DM. I'm trying to imagine what a high level character might be doing in their lives before such a threat as an Elder Evil rears its head.

[Kazudo]

Oh. Build a castle, get some titles, maybe a small army, get rights to a mine, get into politics, start a world martial arts tournament business, etc.

[BWR]

The traditional path of adventurers was:
- loot tombs, defeat small bands of enemies, explore dangerous areas, etc.
- become famous, found a stronghold and attract followers, become leaders
- expand power base into true domain (baronies, dukedoms, principalities, petty kingdoms, etc.)
- become a god

As others have mentioned, politics is a natural place to go. High level people should be famous, so play off that. Local lords want to befriend them, rivals may show up, common people want heroes to help them all the time, people will want to be their apprentices, etc. Unless the PCs actively avoid people, politics will creep up on them. They are too powerful and too famous for rulers to ignore.

[Flavel]

I would think that most high-level characters are hyper-focused individuals who have some sort of over-riding goals that they absolutely have to accomplish.


Seriously, why would you risk your life over and over again? At some point you have all the wealth, power, and influence you could ever want or need. Why not retire, raise a family, and enjoy the company of friends and peers among the comfort and privileges so far acquired?

[Phelix-Mu]

So here's my take on this:

- Mechanics become increasingly irrelevant as the game reaches high level. Between WBL, spells, and, gods save us, epic spells, much of everything becomes fairly trivial. So, there are two things that drive the story:

1.) Plot Kitty: This is the elder god/macguffin/cabal of X that is, for story reasons, the profound enemy of the characters, what they stand for, all things everywhere, or which are somehow of similar indisputable relevance. It's on the DM to make the conflict both provocative and engaging, not to mention challenging for the proto-godlings that make up the party.

2.) Role play: Your character is devoted to goddess X, and must champion her cause to the far reaches of reality. Or maybe you want to be the Bill Gates of the FR setting. Or the greatest weaponsmith to have ever lived. These motivations are essentially player-driven, and come both from the core character concept as well as its evolution over the course of the campaign. Furthermore, the group dynamic is increasingly important. Why do a bunch of people that could each solo curbstomp 85% of what they are facing actually cooperate? Simple answer: they have a shared history that was fun/meaningful/tragic, and have undergone rituals of bonding that mark them as comrades for life (if not actual friends).

- So, that aside, here are a few ideas:

- Build a new moon.

- Get a spelljammer helm and fix that illithid problem once and for all.

- Get the phone numbers of all of the known demon princes and princesses of the Abyss.

- Find the corpse of a dead god and forge it into a reality-splitting helm, and pilot that bad baby into the Far Realm. Announce that the place is "under new management."

- Negotiate peace between the Githyanki and the Githzerai.

- Find the only sane slaad to have ever lived.

- Convert all living matter on the Prime into green slime. Alternatively, try to turn all the undead on the Plane of Negative Energy into green slime.

- Become immortal, but not by one of the more common means.

[russdm]

Do this:

1) Use your cash to build a castle Or create a mage tower or a temple (Use Stronghold builder's guidebook for this)

2) Gather a Harem plus servants for castle/tower/temple

3) Have Kids

This is nearly nothing that becomes really interesting or worth it on the material plane beyond creating a lasting legacy of some kind. Yeah, you can keep fighting bigger monsters, but I personally would find that rather boring.

[Eldariel]

Achieve whatever personal goals your character has. Maybe he's taken a liking to divinity? Find a way to do it. Or maybe you'd like to go enjoy life at Valhalla or pick an outer plane and begin operations to improve their position in the cosmology. Go to Sigil and...yeah, everyone is pretty badass over there. Or maybe found a kingdom or some such. Maybe finally commit the long overdue Drow genocide. Maybe you just want to research new arcana or solve the nature of the multiverse or whatever. Or maybe you just want to watch the world burn: Now you've got the power to make it so! Mayhap you'd want to start researching time travel. And Elder Dragons are still stronger than you as well as many Outsiders so it's not like you'd run out of stuff to try and outgrow either. You're not on the top of the totem pole.

Basically, at that point you're finally near the point where you can make a difference on the planar scale so pick whatever difference you want to make and start making it. As one option. As a rule of thumb, kingdoms of the material plane are ultimately of relatively little relevance to the actual runnings of the multiverse and the battle between the alignments and such so your attention will probably move towards the more relevant things if your goal is to matter in some regard. High levels are a great time to become an eldritch abomination if that's your thing too.

[Rubik]

Do this:

1) Use your cash to build a castle Or create a mage tower or a temple (Use Stronghold builder's guidebook for this)If you're mundane, sure, use the SBG. If you're a spellcaster, you can comb it for ideas, but use your spells to build your stronghold for $0 down and $0 a month!

[Bronk]

If you're really worried about what to do at higher levels, you could lock it in using the epic destinies, which came out juuuuust at the end of 3.5 and are detailed in a bunch of places online and in Dragon 363. They start at level 21 and end with game ending immortality of some kind at level 30, but you do get to choose for yourself, including becoming a god.

[Nettlekid]

I'm liking a lot of these ideas, but they seem largely self-contained. Like they're the things you'd do after the ellipsis in "Happily Ever After...", not something you'd actually play on a weekly basis in a campaign.

I ask because my friend is planning a low-Epic campaign where dragons from a parallel Material Plane invade, and the power level is going to be all over the place. We're level 21, and will be among the strongest adventurers on the whole Material Plane, with much weaker NPCs. The dragons will be average dragons, but since they're playing Xorvintaal they get quirks and no spellcasting, which makes them a lot more manageable in a way. He's also going to chuck in gods walking around in disguise to slap us around if we get boastful, but also want to use us(?). The DM likes the 3rd party book Chaositech and plans to homebrew a lot of "I Win" buttons that will beat our characters in limited capacity (like in one dungeon of many, and he's giving us fair warning about them). So it's pretty crazy. And I can't think of any character that would have meaningful goals that would be affected by dragons, without being all about the dragons, and also not just totally trumped by all the I Win buttons ALL the time but would still be affected by them in an engaging way. Like for example, an expert Diviner who uses magic to know everyone's secrets and deals in information sounds pretty cool, like an underworld boss, except that there's no reason that every foe doesn't have every inch of their lair warded from Scrying and every monster Mind Blanked. An expert Illusionist who stays hidden 24/7 and uses Major Images to interact with the world and manipulate the world around them will get outed by a god way too soon, and then there's not much to be done. *shrug*

[Yahzi]

Mechanically, nothing. If you were playing the game to acquire levels, then you're done. You've won.

[unseenmage]

Conquer everything for justifiable but personal reasons.

Then tear reality a new one and conquer everything else.

Think you're done? Nope. Depending on your campaign setting you could tear yourself an invasion hole into another campaign setting and conquer that one.

[Phelix-Mu]

Conquer everything for justifiable but personal reasons.

Then tear reality a new one and conquer everything else.

Think you're done? Nope. Depending on your campaign setting you could tear yourself an invasion hole into another campaign setting and conquer that one.

In a long-running dream campaign, I...

- seduced Glasya

- solved a problem with elementals stealing life force on an alternate Prime

- rode a wave of lava through the 6th layer of the Nine Hells...this was after inventing a geo-magnetic dynamo epic spell that allowed me to vaporize most of the 1st layer (not that this did much...infinite enemies are infinite)

- defeated various spawns of an elder god of annihilation, before climbing through a collapsing plane in order to get to his core, which I then managed to corrupt with life energy from the Prime, inverting the principles of the god with magic so that he wasn't quite so nasty anymore (which was nice, cause he'd been fragging cities on my home plane)

- learned to wield spells in a new fashion, using high-speed mathematics to channel magical energy into reality...kind of worked out like Truenaming...used this to prop up collapsing realities while I evacuated residents of said realities

- finally mastered gravity by traveling into the non-dimensional world of a singularity, where I bonded with the Far Realm, overcame my own limited nature, and then emerged by splitting the singularity into a new galaxy

Sadly, massive amounts of houserules and epic shenanigans were used for much of this. A more conservative campaign might have to stick to more mundane stuff...huehuehue.:smallwink:

As I recall, splitting the black holes got me into the mid-40s.

[unseenmage]

In a long-running dream campaign, I...

(Awesomeness!!)


Best I've done is cause exponential, exponential Constructs to magically come into being creating more matter in several months than Faerun itself has. Much retconning and handwavium was used that day to fix what I'd done.

[Talya]

Let's say you're high level, level 20 or even low Epic, in a world that has high powered enemies, the occasional visit from the gods, and NPCs of a wide spectrum of power levels but most, if not all, lower than yourself. What's a character's goal at that point? With trivial displays of might or magic they can garner all the fame they could desire. WBL alone makes them richer than kings and dragons. They can fight monsters for fun, but either the high power makes it rocket tag or it ends up being the same as it was at first level. What's there to do? Sure you can make your own demiplane and spend the next thousand years cheating death and researching spells, but where's the actual fun in roleplaying that?

Similarly, what's the role to fill in a party? If we assume that just about any battle role is easily filled, anyone can be a tank or DPS, anyone who can UMD a wand of Guidance of the Avatar can be a skillmonkey, then how can a character carve an interesting niche?

At any level where you are such a force to be reckoned with that the world in general cannot ignore you, and every undertaking you attempt is grand in scope, the opportunities for roleplaying expand many times over, but they often move away from combat.

The longest running campaign I was in (and my favorite character I've ever played) ran from level 4 to 18 over a period of about 5 years. My sorceress, Nara Aesera Nahid, was a former harem slave from Calimport in Faerun, and a worshipper of Sune. (Multiclassed into Heartwarder, a Sunite High-Priestess PrC that works with either divine or arcane spellcasting.) While Sune is a greater deity in Faerun, and the Goddess of Love, Beauty & Passion, she did not have a strong following in Calimport. So I returned to Calimport, coopted a festival-hall of Sharess (who is a demipower in the service of Sune) to assist me, and built a grand basilica (that would have put the Hanging Gardens of Babylon to shame) as a world wonder renowned across all of Faerun. Fresh waterfalls (fed by large numbers of decanters of endless water) ran down the sides of the massive garden-temple, pooling in rivers that provided cool, fresh water for all the inhabitants of this massive desert city, and began a mass conversion of the populace to Sune.

Shortly afterward, the character was retired, but in that same gaming group, we usually play in the same setting and continuity of our first campaign, and my old sorceress is now a communal quest-giving NPC, and the Basilica of Burning Passions a safe haven, for good characters, no matter who is DMing.

Faerun is, of course, a better setting for high level characters, as just being an 18th level sorcerer doesn't make you a god among mortals there. It instead just causes you to be worth notice by the many iconics in the setting. (Which also meant there were several life-threatening challenges to my basilica at times.)

[Nettlekid]

At any level where you are such a force to be reckoned with that the world in general cannot ignore you, and every undertaking you attempt is grand in scope, the opportunities for roleplaying expand many times over, but they often move away from combat.

The longest running campaign I was in (and my favorite character I've ever played) ran from level 4 to 18 over a period of about 5 years. My sorceress, Nara Aesera Nahid, was a former harem slave from Calimport in Faerun, and a worshipper of Sune. (Multiclassed into Heartwarder, a Sunite High-Priestess PrC that works with either divine or arcane spellcasting.) While Sune is a greater deity in Faerun, and the Goddess of Love, Beauty & Passion, she did not have a strong following in Calimport. So I returned to Calimport, coopted a festival-hall of Sharess (who is a demipower in the service of Sune) to assist me, and built a grand basilica (that would have put the Hanging Gardens of Babylon to shame) as a world wonder renowned across all of Faerun. Fresh waterfalls (fed by large numbers of decanters of endless water) ran down the sides of the massive garden-temple, pooling in rivers that provided cool, fresh water for all the inhabitants of this massive desert city, and began a mass conversion of the populace to Sune.

Shortly afterward, the character was retired, but in that same gaming group, we usually play in the same setting and continuity of our first campaign, and my old sorceress is now a communal quest-giving NPC, and the Basilica of Burning Passions a safe haven, for good characters, no matter who is DMing.

Faerun is, of course, a better setting for high level characters, as just being an 18th level sorcerer doesn't make you a god among mortals there. It instead just causes you to be worth notice by the many iconics in the setting. (Which also meant there were several life-threatening challenges to my basilica at times.)

This is still the same "Happily Ever After" type of ending. You could roleplay out building all that in a single session. In your case, when you were finishing up after a long stint with that character, it was the finale. But for a campaign STARTING at that point, then what you finished with is sort of the baseline for the beginning, and I don't know how much to do with it once it's there. The character can be enjoying themselves, but what's there for me as the player to do besides say "My character is enjoying himself"?

[Talya]

This is still the same "Happily Ever After" type of ending. You could roleplay out building all that in a single session. In your case, when you were finishing up after a long stint with that character, it was the finale. But for a campaign STARTING at that point, then what you finished with is sort of the baseline for the beginning, and I don't know how much to do with it once it's there. The character can be enjoying themselves, but what's there for me as the player to do besides say "My character is enjoying himself"?


The wealth required to build that was FAR beyond what I'd acquired adventuring. This required politicking, adventuring further to gain favor, building alliances, finding the best artisans, business investments (there are several high end brothels around faerun still under Nara's administration.) Furthermore, it wasn't just the building, she needed to acquire a devout priesthood following to staff it with her.

The basilica wealth had to be tracked separately from character wealth.

(It was a tremendous amount of roleplaying - which was a pleasant change from the number of combat encounters previously.)

[Phelix-Mu]

In a similar vein, an epic level kender cleric/thief of mine converted to the worship of Yondalla about halfway through his career. Since kender on our campaign world didn't follow the normal halfling pantheon (or really worship much of anything at all), his major task was to found a priesthood among his people, starting with allying himself with the existing priesthood (and high priestess), building a cathedral for his kender flock, and working to advocate for and protect his flock.

That campaign is actually still ongoing, and he's like 24th or something, with still plenty of work ahead of him.

Yes, there is less slaying. Or rather, there is still slaying, but it typically isn't some earth-shaking threat everyday. Just isolated incidents, investigations, damage control, forming alliances. Slaying.

But he cares deeply about it, and it's the climax of his career, so it's compelling for him, and since I care about my character, it's compelling for me.

Part of the problem is that, if your character is brand new at 21st, you as a player don't have the huge investment of time and emotion into the first 20 levels worth of great memories, past exploits and capers, and so forth. Any character I level from 1-20 and onward is one that I really, really come to love, and making a brand new one that is already epic and having the same level of feeling would be quite a bit of effort (but not impossible).

[cobaltstarfire]

This is still the same "Happily Ever After" type of ending. You could roleplay out building all that in a single session. In your case, when you were finishing up after a long stint with that character, it was the finale. But for a campaign STARTING at that point, then what you finished with is sort of the baseline for the beginning, and I don't know how much to do with it once it's there. The character can be enjoying themselves, but what's there for me as the player to do besides say "My character is enjoying himself"?

Your characters became the most powerful somehow didn't they?

What were they doing before the dragons invaded? Were they in retirement, about to retire, or still seeking adventure?

If they've retired did they let themselves go since the good ol' days?

Are the dragons a threat? Has their invasion had some effect on the characters? Why wouldn't characters who are some of the strongest in the world not try to defeat the dragons and prevent them from continuously invading?

Ask yourself these kinds of questions, it sounds like you're getting hung up on the whole "happily ever after" as an ending, rather than just a lull in the story, or the start of a new one.

[Nettlekid]

Your characters became the most powerful somehow didn't they?

What were they doing before the dragons invaded? Were they in retirement, about to retire, or still seeking adventure?

If they've retired did they let themselves go since the good ol' days?

Are the dragons a threat? Has their invasion had some effect on the characters? Why wouldn't characters who are some of the strongest in the world not try to defeat the dragons and prevent them from continuously invading?

Ask yourself these kinds of questions, it sounds like you're getting hung up on the whole "happily ever after" as an ending, rather than just a lull in the story, or the start of a new one.

These are the things I'm trying to figure out! The DM wants us to have characters that are famous or infamous in the world and have some kind of vested interest in that world so that they have something to lose if the world is taken. And that makes sense. But I can't figure out how to make something like that both plausible and interesting for me. Like in the case of the formation of religious structures or political powers, putting them together might be interesting enough but then the daily affairs would be kind of bland, as far as I can see. It would be fairly simple and monotonous, and kind of dull to roleplay. Anything that ends up with a high level character kind of put on a pedestal, be it the strongest warrior in the world and leader of a kingdom's army or the most brilliant mage studying magic in a tower or a legendary underworld boss amassing riches, gives a good enough reason why an Epic level character would care if their way of life was put at risk but it doesn't sound like something really worth the time to play before any kind of cataclysm shakes them.

[cobaltstarfire]

Ok....

Ask yourself what your character is not then.


Or start with a lv 1 character and imagine what their goals would be. Now fast forward to level 21, they've achieved their goals or very nearly so. Except things are invading and threatening to come in and smash all that to dust.

[Nettlekid]

Ok....

Ask yourself what your character is not then.


Or start with a lv 1 character and imagine what their goals would be. Now fast forward to level 21, they've achieved their goals or very nearly so. Except things are invading and threatening to come in and smash all that to dust.

It's not hard to imagine a character type, and what goals that character would have. An example I used above was some kind of information broker, perhaps an Unseen Seer who uses Divination magic to learn anything he has to know, and maybe has some Rogue in him so he doubles as an assassin with the help of that same Divination magic. At low levels, an aspiring street urchin yet to unlock any magical talent. Low-to-mid levels, a caster for hire trying to make connections with the rich and famous and learning secrets as he goes. At higher levels, a kingpin in the criminal world where he stays at the top of the pile and does secret deals with figures like royalty to secure his own position while quietly boasting about his not inconsiderable power.

Now, what's that character supposed to do at level 21? Compared to any adversary (depending on class and quality of optimization on the part of the DM) there are two options. The first is that he either so completely overpowers them by casting and cunning that they are no challenge; he could learn anything about them that he wants and use it as leverage for manipulation as is his usual style, and if that fails then he can just cast spells like any caster to win in a fight. Or, the enemy is so well protected (they and all minions are Mind Blanked 24/7, Scry-proof lairs, bypass the need for most saving throws to usual spells, etc) that this guy can't do anything. At that point sure, it might be interesting enough for this character to want to take steps to take down this new threat, but he won't be able to use his main tricks, and we're back to playing the equivalent of maybe a level 14 Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster who has to use Conjurations because his standard Divinations won't work, and that's fine, but if the whole point is to play this super Diviner character then it rather defeats the purpose. That's what I mean when I ask "what is there to do?"

[Eldariel]

Well, he could for instance be running an information shop in Sigil. Certainly in demand and certainly challenging enough. It's all in the environment, after all. Maybe he's really good, maybe he's an important part of the city now. Perhaps, perhaps not. Maybe he's spying on some more primordial secrets; perhaps he's studying Pact Primordial or some deities' agenda or whatever. Or maybe he's subtly manipulating the threads of fate to avoid some future cataclysm he caught a glimpse of. Or whatever. It seems trivial enough to come up with infinite options.

[cobaltstarfire]

That's what I mean when I ask "what is there to do?"


Save the world from rampaging dragons? As you have been told you will be doing by your dm?

[Pinkie Pyro]

kill demi-liches, get demi-bitches.

[Rubik]

huehuehue."Color color color" still has jack to do with anything.

Also, for the O.P. Think of this as a new chapter in a superhero story. What do superheroes do, both "at work" and in their spare time? Peter Parker is certainly extremely high level, and Clark Kent and Goku are even more so. What kinds of things do they do? They have families and lives that they spend time on when they're not saving the world and/or universe.

This is the same basic sort of thing.

[Nettlekid]

Save the world from rampaging dragons? As you have been told you will be doing by your dm?

That's what we'd be doing into the campaign. But there was time between becoming a high level wonder of the world and the dragon invasion. What was I doing in all that time?

And also, we're drifting a little from another of my original questions, which was what can I bring to the party that would be special enough not to be replicated by someone UMDing a Schema of something? Being either DPS or a tank is useless in a rocket-tag 1000s-of-damage insta-kill environment (and also magic exists.) Playing a skillmonkey is too precise-If my bonuses are too low, they should get wands of Guidance of the Avatar and Improvisation and use those instead; if I spend resources to make my bonuses high they'd be in only a few specific skills and I pigeonhole myself into a niche role. Information-gatherers would either be flat out shut down if the DM doesn't want to have to think ahead or give us tons of information, and any information he wants us to have he'd probably let us figure out with regular Knowledge checks and Gather Information, which needn't even be high so long as they're roleplayed well. Healing? Please. Battlefield Control? Things plow through any battlefield control. What is there to actually do?

[Rubik]

Wizard/war weaver/spellguard of Silverymoon/abjurant champion/initiate of the sevenfold veil/legacy champion (boosting war weaver so everyone in the party gets buffed with higher level spells). Buff the crap out of your party, since you never really do outgrow buffs.

[cobaltstarfire]

That's what we'd be doing into the campaign. But there was time between becoming a high level wonder of the world and the dragon invasion. What was I doing in all that time?


Apparently whatever "boring" shenanigans a lv 20 something character gets up to until something more interesting and challenging comes up. But honestly it sounds like you're just being contrary for the sake of it now. Every suggestion any one has given you, you could run with as backstory just fine. Good luck with figuring out how to give your character a backstory. I have no other suggestion for you that you wouldn't immediately shoot down anyway, and I'm certainly not going to make up a backstory for you.

[Nettlekid]

Apparently whatever "boring" shenanigans a lv 20 something character gets up to until something more interesting and challenging comes up. But honestly it sounds like you're just being contrary for the sake of it now. Every suggestion any one has given you, you could run with as backstory just fine. Good luck with figuring out how to give your character a backstory. I have no other suggestion for you that you wouldn't immediately shoot down anyway, and I'm certainly not going to make up a backstory for you.

Dude, calm down. I'm not asking for a backstory, and I'm definitely not shooting people down. You've all given me examples of your stories. I'm not going to steal your stories, I'll make my own. I have, I gave you a few examples. I was saying that these don't apply so well to me because they're the finales of your campaigns, shortly before the big The End, while I'm trying to think of what to do just after a backstory ends and before a campaign quest begins. Don't get all...huffy.


Wizard/war weaver/spellguard of Silverymoon/abjurant champion/initiate of the sevenfold veil/legacy champion (boosting war weaver so everyone in the party gets buffed with higher level spells). Buff the crap out of your party, since you never really do outgrow buffs.

It's funny, this was the second character type I built (after a "try to be immune to everything DFA" build). Mainly the War Weaver/Spellguard combo, with a bunch of Runestaves. It's very tempting because I think my other party members (and the DM for that matter) basically can't be bothered with spells, so I'm the only one who'd put a lot of value in the power of magic and that without proper buffs people at high levels can die without a save. But I'm a little worried about seeming overpowered if I have buffs to defend against everything, to the point that the DM starts bypassing the buffs because he wants to see some stuff work.

[Rubik]

Wizards have a lot of "no" buttons. Use them.

[Nettlekid]

Wizards have a lot of "no" buttons. Use them.

I'm worried about too easily overusing them. I definitely have much more knowledge of spells than the DM. I'm fairly confident that I could indeed hit a "no" button to any problem. But if I overuse Abrupt Jaunt or Celerity I'm going to find myself running into dungeons which are routinely Dimensionally Locked or like, temporally stabilized, and as a result I'm going to not only not have those to fall back on but then lose Teleport and Summon Monster or Haste and Arcane Spellsurge because of it. And that's fair enough, because I'm not going to need to overpower it, but I would want to (and even if I did a halfway competent job it would SEEM like I was overpowering it) if I went with a Buffer.

[Rubik]

Then branch out. Always use something different and unexpected.

[Nettlekid]

Then branch out. Always use something different and unexpected.

That sounds like I'd have to end up having just about every spell in my spellbook and have to have fantastic foresight (one might say Uncanny Foresight) to switch up my spells every day. That's getting close to "play StP Erudite" territory, which would be amazingly strong but just too much.

[Rubik]

I'm just saying that the easiest way to prevent being neutralized is to frequently use different spell selections.

Also, add in three levels of cleric for Initiate of Mystra, for immunity to AMFs and dead magic zones.

[Nettlekid]

I'm just saying that the easiest way to prevent being neutralized is to frequently use different spell selections.

Also, add in three levels of cleric for Initiate of Mystra, for immunity to AMFs and dead magic zones.

See, that's exactly what's far too cheesy and would just result in my DM saying "No, something special happens so there's no magic anyway, because it's a no-magic zone regardless of your special power that says 'magic in no-magic zones.'" Which I'd say is pretty fair; if the DM wants no magic, why try to bust through that?

[Rubik]

See, that's exactly what's far too cheesy and would just result in my DM saying "No, something special happens so there's no magic anyway, because it's a no-magic zone regardless of your special power that says 'magic in no-magic zones.'" Which I'd say is pretty fair; if the DM wants no magic, why try to bust through that?Um... Because you spent precious resources explicitly to prevent that exact thing, and the DM screwing you over is B.S.?

That is the exact definition of "not fair."

[Nettlekid]

Um... Because you spent precious resources explicitly to prevent that exact thing, and the DM screwing you over is B.S.?

That is the exact definition of "not fair."

Eh, yes and no. You're assuming a pretty high OP game. I'm talking about a DM who plays almost exclusively Rogues and has never built a caster. Although it's of course within the rules, it's not fair of me to try to overpower and break the scenario the DM wants for particular locations just because I "can" by the rules.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Well, if you as a player really don't think there's much for your character to do in terms of personal goals and activities, maybe make that central to your character concept.

Ever since you saved the world from XYZ, you've been seeking out more and more dangerous challenges precisely because you're bored to tears, and handicapping yourself to make them interesting ("I am not left-handed!"). Sometimes you go for days staring at the wall. Then you leap to your feet in a burst of activity, create your own personal demiplane, abandon that after a day or two, hang out in the tavern to drown your sorrows, and either corner some poor shepherd to pour out your sorrows to ("I've seen attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...") or get roaring drunk and stagger through the streets challenging random passersby to duels.

Do some method acting; if you think your character will be bored, make him bored. Your character will leap at the chance for some new worthy challenge when the DM presents it (which I'm sure he/she will appreciate).

[Coidzor]

Peace in our time by resolving long-standing geopolitical struggles by addressing the concerns that started them, reducing the strain of scarce resources on the situation, and exiling large numbers of both populations to different moons until they come to the bargaining table?

[Nettlekid]

Well, if you as a player really don't think there's much for your character to do in terms of personal goals and activities, maybe make that central to your character concept.

Ever since you saved the world from XYZ, you've been seeking out more and more dangerous challenges precisely because you're bored to tears, and handicapping yourself to make them interesting ("I am not left-handed!"). Sometimes you go for days staring at the wall. Then you leap to your feet in a burst of activity, create your own personal demiplane, abandon that after a day or two, hang out in the tavern to drown your sorrows, and either corner some poor shepherd to pour out your sorrows to ("I've seen attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...") or get roaring drunk and stagger through the streets challenging random passersby to duels.

Do some method acting; if you think your character will be bored, make him bored. Your character will leap at the chance for some new worthy challenge when the DM presents it (which I'm sure he/she will appreciate).

How have I not thought of this? This is actually a really interesting idea. I've been worried about building a character that's so overpowered that the DM would have to nerf him (and sort of the world around him) to keep him under control, but yeah, what about a character so overpowered that he nerfs himself repeatedly? Kind of the way Superman never fights at full power. Like an Archmage who, when confronted by an opposing army, decides that he won't use higher than 1st level spells. Or something.

This might bear thinking about. But in that case, what kind of build is best suited to this? A caster? Melee? Skillmonkey? Who would be able to be so strong that being weak is like being a normal character, but is then capable of breaking the game at varying degrees when the situation calls for it?

[Rubik]

Eh, yes and no. You're assuming a pretty high OP game. I'm talking about a DM who plays almost exclusively Rogues and has never built a caster. Although it's of course within the rules, it's not fair of me to try to overpower and break the scenario the DM wants for particular locations just because I "can" by the rules.You're fraggin' epic. The whole point is to be ridiculously powerful.

[Svata]

Seroiusly. I am in an epic gestalt game as a lich sorc//wiz/iotsv, and hae the ability to deal NI damage through rediculous Greater Arcane Fusion+metamagic reducer cheese, and I'm running the least powerful character in the group except our (now NPC, as his player left) skill/trap monkey. Who was an awakned monkey rogue/wizard.