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Mr. Mask
2014-06-20, 04:40 PM
It's easy enough to justify the powers of a superhero via suspension of disbelief. However, the society where super heroes exist is somehow heavier on suspension of disbelief.

Why aren't they working with the police force? Why don't they kill the baddies? Why do they wear silly clothes? Why doesn't the government form military and police units able to stop super beings instead of relying on random citizens for defence? Why do super villains act similarly to super heroes (funny clothes, being ineffective at killing, etc.)? Why do so many super heroes make use of fisticuffs even when weapons would be genuinely handy to them? And why are there so many incompetent criminals that super heroes can beat up without risk?

If you wanted to make a plausible super hero setting, how would you get around questions that occur with many super hero stories?

Metahuman1
2014-06-20, 05:08 PM
There `s a web comic called grrl power that i think handles this rather well. I`ll post a link later.

Alex12
2014-06-20, 05:20 PM
There `s a web comic called grrl power that i think handles this rather well. I`ll post a link later.

http://www.grrlpowercomic.com/
Beat you to it.

J-H
2014-06-20, 05:30 PM
Go read all 2.6 million words of Worm. Your questions are, for the most part, addressed.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-06-20, 05:35 PM
Rather than taking the standard tropes, you start with the premise ("100,000 random people worldwide gained powers after a cosmic event") and work your way outwards from there.


Why aren't they working with the police force? Why don't they kill the baddies?
These two are probably related. If you're a cop, lethal force is a last resort, superpowers or no. If you're not a cop... you're either running afoul of the law or have some sort of in/formal agreement. Either way, murder would make things a lot more difficult for you.

Now, if you're asking why mass murdering supervillains don't get the death penalty? Well... considering how long it takes to execute people, even in states where that's an option, the Joker probably is on Death Row. He just won't get through his last appeal for another 20 years.


Why do they wear silly clothes?
Public perception. Superpowered people would be scary enough as it is; now imagine Superman in black tactical gear and a ski mask. The costume is a way of saying "hey! I'm here, and I'm not scary!"


Why doesn't the government form military and police units able to stop super beings instead of relying on random citizens for defence?
They certainly ought to, if it's within the bounds of setting-appropriate tech and power availability. Even if possible, such things would almost certainly be rare and expensive. You couldn't have one in every city-- they'd have to be based in hubs. When the Hulk starts rampaging through downtown, who'll be there first: the team 200 miles away that needs to assemble and take helicopters over, or the guy who works at East 63rd Street?


Why do super villains act similarly to super heroes (funny clothes, being ineffective at killing, etc.)?
Plot armor-- it's hard to tell a story if the hero gets killed every time he loses. It's not so noticeable in one story, or even a short series, but comics are telling story after story, month after month and year after year. It's a narrative necessity.

EDIT: Also, a common in-setting rationalizations is that if you kill one superhero, you bring down a whole swarm of others looking for revenge, fame from capturing you, or both. Is it really worth killing Nightwing if Batman, the Teen Titans, the JLA and the JSA swam in afterwards and start tearing the town apart looking for you?


Why do so many super heroes make use of fisticuffs even when weapons would be genuinely handy to them?
Where are you going to go to get training with your weapon? How can you afford one, and replacements for when it gets broken or lost? How are you keeping it available in your secret identity? If you're super-strong, where are you getting something that won't break the second you hit someone with it?


And why are there so many incompetent criminals that super heroes can beat up without risk?
Are you referring to supervillains, or normal crooks?

TandemChelipeds
2014-06-20, 05:51 PM
Public perception. Superpowered people would be scary enough as it is; now imagine Superman in black tactical gear and a ski mask. The costume is a way of saying "hey! I'm here, and I'm not scary!"

Put another way: If you could punch through a truck and had nothing to fear, why wouldn't you dress fabulous?

Jormengand
2014-06-20, 05:54 PM
The webcomic Strong Female Protagonist, as well as the book series Gone, both explore realistic implications of superheroes - the former in a normal world, the latter in a quasi-post-apocalypse setting. The former I expect addresses such issues more deliberately and the latter more incidentally, but they're both pretty good reads.

Kid Jake
2014-06-20, 07:29 PM
Put another way: If you could punch through a truck and had nothing to fear, why wouldn't you dress fabulous?

Lord knows I'd wear nothing but a purple velvet bathrobe if I noone could stop me.


In my setting the 'heroes' (and villains) are all the result of a freak accident and were told unconditionally that they were not to run around and dress/act like superheroes because their existence is now a state secret. It took them about six months of play time, but they've now pissed off the entire United States government and are dressing up to publicly fight crime because they figure that if they're extremely visible and have a superhero 'brand' nobody can touch them without risking publicity backlash. The charming, golden age 'I fight for what's right' image is 100% an attempt to make the public love them so they don't wind up in a secret prison. Likewise the inexhaustible tide of criminals came from them taking it upon themselves to wipe out criminal organizations and steal all their swag since they figured nobody would miss them.

Grod mentioned a lot of great stuff, though if the classic superhero formula doesn't mesh with your way of thinking just shift it over a little bit. The Seven from The Boys are the kings of publicity and everyone loves them but are actually pretty incompetent and sadistic. Empowered explains that the reason villains/heroes never kill each other is that it causes escalation; sure you might be able to just shoot Batman once you've knocked him out but then the JLA kidnap you in the middle of the night and the rest of your gang start finding pieces of you all over town. The explanation might not be pretty, but if people behave a certain way there's probably a reason for it.

Felhammer
2014-06-20, 07:34 PM
Set the stories in the 1950's and give the heroes' vigilantism a pass by the government because they are upstanding Americans. You cannot kill because then the government would come down on you. Costumes are colorful because they look snazzy in the papers. Truth, Liberty and Freedom are powerful allies that give heroes the power to dodge miraculously and withstand heavy beatings.

TandemChelipeds
2014-06-20, 08:08 PM
In all honesty, though, I don't think superheroes would play out in real life anything like they do in the comics, even if people did have powers. Let's strip the concept of the superhero down to its bare bones and build on it logically from there. What are our basic elements?

Batman types aside, it is that somebody has or acquires powers, and decides to use them to the benefit of others. What methods of improving society come to mind that could be made easier by the possession of superpowers? I don't know why, but for me, the first thing that comes to mind is the Crips. When I was young, I heard that the way they formed was that Tookie Williams lived in a community full of crooked cops that abused their authority, so he started a gang to fight back and it just kinda escalated. Since then, I've read that it was fighting between other gangs that were the initial problem, and that all Tookie did was unify them, but I can't help thinking: He basically did what he did by being really tough and charismatic, and the result, initially, at least, was improvement in his community. It stands to reason that superpowers would make that task easier. So in my superhero setting, we wouldn't really have individual crime-fighters per se. Instead, I think we'd have roving gangs of ordinary thugs, held together by a vaguely altruistic code and loyalty to a superpowered leader. At least, it's what I'd do.

Damn, now I want to run a Mutants and Masterminds game in a setting like that.

Warlawk
2014-06-20, 09:47 PM
It's easy enough to justify the powers of a superhero via suspension of disbelief. However, the society where super heroes exist is somehow heavier on suspension of disbelief.

Why aren't they working with the police force? Why don't they kill the baddies? Why do they wear silly clothes? Why doesn't the government form military and police units able to stop super beings instead of relying on random citizens for defence? Why do super villains act similarly to super heroes (funny clothes, being ineffective at killing, etc.)? Why do so many super heroes make use of fisticuffs even when weapons would be genuinely handy to them? And why are there so many incompetent criminals that super heroes can beat up without risk?

If you wanted to make a plausible super hero setting, how would you get around questions that occur with many super hero stories?

You've just mostly described my group's superhero games. Obviously each game has a different plot and slant on things, but the government usually has superhuman counter groups of special forces as well as making efforts to recruit superhumans themselves. Killing can be a touchy subject but the bottom line is that in most cases leaving a trail of corpses behind you is a good way to become target number one for counter superhuman operations teams. 'Costumes' are uncommon in our games and tend to be more linked to powers (For instance a super speed character is not likely to be running around in a duster).

In short, yes we tend to play games more based in what it might be like if superhumans existed in the world as we know it. Everyone plays differently and has different things they enjoy, personally I just couldn't get into a traditional 4 color superhero game because they just don't make sense for many of the reasons you already addressed.

Slipperychicken
2014-06-20, 10:01 PM
Here are some possible implications for superpowered people:


I think supers would, wherever they think they can get away with it (without alienating people they love or grossly violating their morals, that is) act out all of their most grotesque power fantasies (torturing supervisors, stealing piles of money, scaring women into joining their harems), doing horrible things for the lulz (such as tormenting anyone who wronged them before their empowerment), usually to bring boons to the 'supers and the people they care about most.

Many might be 'kept in check' by their pre-existing social ties, and made subservient to the forces which normally control them. A marine who gains super-powers, for example, would almost certainly continue to follow orders and use his powers as directed. People with stable families and social lives might be less likely to become supervillains, to avoid alienating their peers. Similarly, a deeply religious super might be inclined to do as his spiritual leader says.

Almost all superheroes would try to find some way to monetize their powers. Someone with mind-control might manipulate people into overpaying for services, for example.

Cults would probably spring up overnight, worshiping the supers and claiming their powers to be divine gifts, or even treating the supers as deific figures. At least some supers would believe (or be eventually convinced) that their powers are literally miracles.



Here are a few reasons why some might want to remain hidden:


Every publicly-known super would need teams of specialists to sift through their email and social media, or else be buried in a tsunami of fan-mail, hate-mail, death threats, requests, phone calls, pranks, and other such communications.
Observers would analyze every part of their lives to try to find patterns among the supers, and try to draw conclusions from it.
Marketing organizations would take an interest in any particularly appealing or sympathetic supers, trying to gain their endorsement for products, services, political campaigns, and so on.
At least some people might decide that powers are the result of something nasty (like heretical magic, deals with the devil, or alien technology) and must be eliminated. Lunatics of all sorts would try to kill the supers.
Any super is liable to gain at least a few stalkers, much like any celebrity.

SethoMarkus
2014-06-20, 10:27 PM
What pops into mind for me are primarily two series. The first is the comic series Watchmen, which is a satirical, almost sardonic look at superheroes. The idea being that the "heroes" themselves are mostly just publicized vigilantes and war 'heroes' who are actually kind of arrogant pricks. They are what I think you are imagining heroes would be realistically (though they still have funny costumes).

The other is the Infamous series of video games. The premise here is that a secret organization created a "weapon" that gives ordinary people powers. Rather than Superheroes being the result, gangs are formed or reinforced instead.

Now, these two examples would show the opposite side of the spectrum of what we normally see in super hero comics (Golden and Silver Age especially). What makes each type of story different? The answer is the message that is being conveyed. In a Golden Age style comic, it shows that humanity is inherently good and that those with super powers or a strong uppercut will use their powers in a morally upright way. They wear costumes to hide their identities and create an easily recognizable image. They don't kill because they don't stoop down to that level (even the villains shy away from this most of the time- they want that rare, priceless diamond, not murder charges). They DO work with the police force, but they don't work FOR the police. What they do is technically illegal, but they are given permission to continue because there are some threats that only they can deal with (ie: supervillains). They don't use firearms because they aren't Judge Dredd; they are apprehending the criminals for the police, they aren't taking over the role of judge, jury, and executioner. Firearms are often lethal force, and when you already have a superpower there is no need for them anyway.

In a darker style comic, , or a negative view of real life, the message is that humanity is inherently greedy and self-centered. I don't want to say "evil" because I think that is too strong of a word, but that the general consensus is to look out for yourself first and foremost. They may or may not wear costumes, depending on if they want to be recognized or not, but the vast majority probably would wear a disguise rather than a spandex suit with a giant 'S' on the front. They may or may not kill, but it would really depend on individual morals. To be honest, I don't think killing would be as big as many may make it seem. What is the difference between shooting someone with a gun and killing them with a super power? Given that, depending on where you live, firearms aren't that difficult to acquire, and yet most crimes are non-lethal, I'd assume that we'd just see a lot more bank heists, not a higher body count (afterall, just because you have a super power doesn't mean that you are suddenly impervious to the police's bullets). Some supers might work with the police, and others against them, but I think most would try to avoid the police for one reason or another, not actively working with or against them. Firearms cost money, need to be maintained, and aren't always easy to conceal. Depending on what superpower someone had, I don't think it would even be necessary. Again, if you can shoot lightning from your fingertips, is a handgun really going to aid you at all? Someone that could fly or run at super speeds might carry a firearm, but Mr. Lazervision probably laughs at the idea.

Anyway, that's my 2cp on the matter.

Zavoniki
2014-06-20, 11:35 PM
Better Angels has an interesting mechanics enforced setting that explains a lot of this.

Villains are incompetent and over the top because if they aren't, they either don't have much power, or really really bad things start happening. They stay secret because they literally have demons in their heads. The police and military don't really care super much about the villains because they are incompetent. The ones that aren't... well no matter what your powers, its pretty hard to go toe to toe with endless ranks of tanks and drones.

Being a stereotypical supervillain literally gives you more power. Being a successful one gives you even more power. And then your demon drags you to hell.

Heroes have Angels which have a super, super strict code. So they do all the things super heroes tend to do because if they ever violate their code they start losing power. If they violate it too much too quickly, the Angel talking to them and giving them powers dies. To get an Angel you are normally to be a good person because Angels are somewhat picky, which also leads to a lot of the superheroic tropes being fulfilled outside of being forced too(though their are Angels in bad people... they don't tend to last long).

Demons can go into anyone and are what the PCs are assumed to be. It's a great book for examining why super hero tropes are what they are and why a setting would have them.

Coidzor
2014-06-20, 11:40 PM
Better Angels has an interesting mechanics enforced setting that explains a lot of this.

Villains are incompetent and over the top because if they aren't, they either don't have much power, or really really bad things start happening. They stay secret because they literally have demons in their heads. The police and military don't really care super much about the villains because they are incompetent. The ones that aren't... well no matter what your powers, its pretty hard to go toe to toe with endless ranks of tanks and drones.

Being a stereotypical supervillain literally gives you more power. Being a successful one gives you even more power. And then your demon drags you to hell.

Heroes have Angels which have a super, super strict code. So they do all the things super heroes tend to do because if they ever violate their code they start losing power. If they violate it too much too quickly, the Angel talking to them and giving them powers dies. To get an Angel you are normally to be a good person because Angels are somewhat picky, which also leads to a lot of the superheroic tropes being fulfilled outside of being forced too(though their are Angels in bad people... they don't tend to last long).

Demons can go into anyone and are what the PCs are assumed to be. It's a great book for examining why super hero tropes are what they are and why a setting would have them.

That's weird. Usually players are supposed to not want to throw their characters away once they start actually accomplishing what they set out to do. :smallconfused:

Citizen Nij
2014-06-20, 11:44 PM
I see that Watchmen has already been mentioned; pretty much superheroism is a "if you're not with us, you must be against us" thing to the government and police agencies. You're backed up a bit because it looks good to be supporting the people saving everybody's lives, but if stuff starts going wrong, politicians are going to be the first jumping down your neck if not trying to cut it open.

Another one would be the UK series Misfits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misfits_%28TV_series%29). Long story short, a freak lightning storm gives a bunch of people random abilities based loosely on their stronger personality traits. For example a woman who is always worried about what people think of her, becomes able to hear the thoughts of those around her, if they are thinking of something that has to do with her. A guy who regrets things he did, becomes able to rewind time if he experiences an immense sense of grief or guilt or regret. Another power is the ability to change sex at will - probably originally from someone with strong gender dysphoria. Allows for some very imaginative abilities and scenarios, without making everybody so insanely outpowered - and encourages creative thinking in solutions, since you can't just fireball, Hulksmash or teleport past the problems

These powers are definitely unnatural, but by no means absolutely amazing to have. And since they're just ordinary people, young adults mostly, it's much more about using these powers to get through daily life as well as dealing with the situations created by people using these powers (c.f. a conservative young lady who uses a hynoptic power to onvert wayward teenagers into a cult; a guy who goes back in time to kill Hitler, but leaves behind a phone, technology which leads to a German victory in WWII).

Coidzor
2014-06-21, 12:16 AM
It's easy enough to justify the powers of a superhero via suspension of disbelief. However, the society where super heroes exist is somehow heavier on suspension of disbelief.

Why aren't they working with the police force?

Why don't they kill the baddies?

Why do they wear silly clothes?

Why doesn't the government form military and police units able to stop super beings instead of relying on random citizens for defence?

Why do super villains act similarly to super heroes (funny clothes, being ineffective at killing, etc.)?

Why do so many super heroes make use of fisticuffs even when weapons would be genuinely handy to them?

And why are there so many incompetent criminals that super heroes can beat up without risk?

Sometimes they do. Sometimes informally where they have to keep their involvement at least somewhat secret because vigilantism is illegal, even if they're an expression of it that isn't just the "justice" meted out by panic, the mob, and a length of rope.

Because randomly killing people when it's not known why that person was killed makes people antsy (http://vimeo.com/69882318). Because killing in the dark and in secret is a tool that inspires fear rather than hope. Because it's not their place to make the decision to end a life. And villains that just won't play ball do get killed.

Aside from Batman and other costumes that are supposed to be about intimidation and using fear as a weapon, the costumes are more either the personal idiosyncrasy of the person wearing it or intentionally trying to communicate to the general public that their intentions are benign while also establishing a recognizable brand identity. Memes and symbols are powerful. We have Superman. If someone actually gained flying brick superpowers and wanted to declare their good intentions, they'd grab a spandex suit because that's what we'd understand. Or at least they'd get something more comfortable while still evoking a similar reaction in others due to the appearance of their costume.

They do. Sometimes it works out to some extent. Sometimes the powers involved make such efforts doomed to frustration if not failure.

Usually super heroes are hard to kill, so that's part of it. When a man can take a depleted uranium round from the main gun of a battle tank in the teeth and not even grimace, it's going to take some work to kill him even for someone else with super powers. Otherwise... Actually killing your minions too often makes it too hard to get more minions, hostages are more useful than corpses except to necromancers and things that feed on death, and it's generally better not to cross the moral event horizon by going on a blood-soaked rampage. Making one's self out to be an extinction-level-event or just out to destroy everyone in a 50 mile radius is a good way to convince the world that you're killing enough people that it's worth saying "Y'know what, sure, he's in the middle of a heavily populated city and we'll kill a lot of innocents, but if we don't bomb him, he'll just kill 'em anyway, and more people after that," or having other supers come in with intent to kill from the get go rather than intent to defuse the situation. And even most villains like having the world around as a place to keep their stuff and some form of society for one reason or another.

As for the funny clothes, probably also branding, since if they all dressed like Sauron then no one would be able to tell them apart until they started using their powers.

When you're trying to subdue someone nonlethally and you can't really be hurt by them, physical takedowns make a certain amount of sense, especially in tight quarters. At least as something that they would adopt as part of their skill set. Having no ranged ability to take down people is certainly silly though, yes.

It doesn't really matter how competent you are when you're facing down a grizzly bear without a weapon that can actually hurt it. Same with most super heroes. It doesn't matter that you planned this bank job perfectly and you have all of those hostages if their super power allows them to take out everyone covering the hostages. Not taking supers into account when planning such activities is less defensible, yes, and there'd probably be some amount of under the table payment of supervillains by criminal organizations that wanted them to create a distraction while they ran important operations that they didn't want supers crashing.


If you wanted to make a plausible super hero setting, how would you get around questions that occur with many super hero stories?

The various mainline Villain Guilds are actually tied to the shadow government that actually governs the setting, as are the Heroes Unions. Heroism and Villainy are basically a combination of counting coup and chasing their tails while keeping the masses entertained and the right mix of afraid and adoring and thus compliant and tractable.

Mr Beer
2014-06-21, 12:52 AM
The Wild Card novels cover this by simply taking a realistic world and adding low to medium grade super powers. There are superheroes (Aces) but they are realistically human in nature and generally vulnerable to say, a hit squad of soldiers armed with automatic weapons. The setting is not not big on spandex-costumed vigilantes keeping the streets safe from crime while policemen gratefully salute them.

Lord Raziere
2014-06-21, 01:22 AM
sigh. leave it to nerds to ruin their own enjoyment of something because they want it to make sense. I'd rather make a setting where things are believable and real to a degree, but still fun and game-able rather than the settings everyone is suggesting here.

like one where there are real, severely messed up problems because of superheroes yes, but you still get to be heroes despite that, while many of the settings here deconstruct superheroes too much to the point where there is not much point in being one, and thus I want to play a setting where superheroes make sense, not one where they automatically get de-supered, or it all automatically becomes apocalyptic or something like that.

I'd rather play a setting where people are still trying to figure out what to do about superheroes and all the problems they bring. one that clearly shows that there is going to be lots of problems here- but not one that ruins the concept of the superhero, one that gives you a choice about what superheroes should be while surrounded on all sides by people who disagree with you. because all these deconstructions do is give answers. if I want to make a setting where they make sense, I want to do something far greater: Ask questions. first question: what is a superhero?

a subjective question indeed. one that I will not answer. that is for players to do themselves.

sktarq
2014-06-21, 01:45 AM
Might I recommend the Aberrant system? I think it covers many of these issues quite nicely. even when the "superheroes" of the setting are X men style mutant power flingers not just Watchmen style vigilantes.



Why aren't they working with the police force?
Some do. If the police can afford their large fees or the nova (the in game term for the super-powered people) feel like taking a large salary cut from what they earn on the open market.


Why don't they kill the baddies?
Most do if they can and the baddie has done something openly illegal and worth killing for. Most of the baddies are more subtle than that. Also most of the baddies are still protected from harm as any other citizen and thus killing them would be murder-for which the super "hero" would be put in jail.


Why do they wear silly clothes?
Because a a feat tree (it uses a modified d20 base) with those silly clothes allows for a power reserve and won't disintegrate when the nova gets hit with an effect that should leave them naked (such as surrounding yourself with fire or being hit with an opponent's lightning bolt). Also silly clothes help define a a personal brand that leads to better sales of your action figures and thus more money from licensing contracts....the superpowered are celebrities and get paid for the use of their likeness so it helps with status etc.


Why doesn't the government form military and police units able to stop super beings instead of relying on random citizens for defence?
Again cost but mercenaries are common and a few small units do exist.


Why do super villains act similarly to super heroes (funny clothes, being ineffective at killing, etc.)? Silly clothes again linked to the above. and "villians" isn't exactly an accurate term.


Why do so many super heroes make use of fisticuffs even when weapons would be genuinely handy to them? Because a fair number of weapons either break under the mega powered swings or cause less damage than their punches....or they do use weapons.



And why are there so many incompetent criminals that super heroes can beat up without risk? Not to many left in this world the remainder are in large well organized criminal group...who have their own super-powered members and political cover. (and the super powered don't want to piss off the governments to prevent the government instituting some sort of purge)

The setting of Trinity is the follow up set a century or more later after the above scenario breaks down and the super powered and the normal people go to war.

TandemChelipeds
2014-06-21, 02:01 AM
sigh. leave it to nerds to ruin their own enjoyment of something because they want it to make sense. I'd rather make a setting where things are believable and real to a degree, but still fun and game-able rather than the settings everyone is suggesting here.

Oh, come on. Like you wouldn't play a game in a setting full of flamboyant Robin Hood gangs with superpowers. It'd be like a cross between The Warriors and One Piece. Or it'd just be JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.

I mean, I guess it wouldn't exactly be a superhero game anymore, but it'd be fun as hell.

Brother Oni
2014-06-21, 02:20 AM
The Boys by Garth Ennis does a very good deconstruction of how superheroes would interact with society and the corruption of power.

Lord Raziere
2014-06-21, 03:01 AM
Oh, come on. Like you wouldn't play a game in a setting full of flamboyant Robin Hood gangs with superpowers. It'd be like a cross between The Warriors and One Piece. Or it'd just be JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.

I mean, I guess it wouldn't exactly be a superhero game anymore, but it'd be fun as hell.

I hate One Piece. The protagonist is an idiot, the entire crew are basically robots with weakness modes activated by certain conditions that never fail to make them completely useless, gaining powers by eating fruit is not only silly it is stupid in that they should wear off in a few hours because its just food and not permanent, after a while the plots become predictable as clockwork and never more entertaining. the world, even without the devil fruits makes no sense, the look and feel of it is creepy, strange, with odd colors and at times, it makes me feel less like I'm looking at an actual world, but a cobbled together circus facsimile of one, so transparently false and stitched together that it makes me think of all those failed clown characters on tv that know that children no longer laugh at them and in fact are scared of them, but unlike most of them, are living in a steadfast near insane denial of reality, trying to capture a dream that never was. you may enjoy your creepy circus world of messed up biology and a children's version of pirates, but never make the mistake in assuming that I share your preference.

I do not much point in such a game in general. a bunch of eternally smiling heroes going on cheery adventures, experiencing no true pain and generally being happy-go-lucky for no reason? it would be hollow and pointless for me. a badly built mask of cheeriness that wouldn't capture truth or true feelings of happiness or fulfillment. as for Jojo' Bizarre Adventure, I have not read it, but it being so long running like One Piece, I can already tell that it is similar. the things you list are in eternal stasis, forever stuck in a false joyland. their goals, always delayed and deferred. their journeys never ending. no true fulfillment, only forever seeking but never reaching. spare me such things. I have better fare to focus upon.

Coidzor
2014-06-21, 03:44 AM
sigh. leave it to nerds to ruin their own enjoyment of something because they want it to make sense. I'd rather make a setting where things are believable and real to a degree, but still fun and game-able rather than the settings everyone is suggesting here.

So you don't like the suggestions so far. Can't just wave a magic wand and get top-notch quality posts 100% of the time. You get what you pay for.

Also, pretty sure that's exactly what all of us want, settings that are fun and don't make our brains hurt when we actually think about them for longer than a few seconds at a time.


like one where there are real, severely messed up problems because of superheroes yes, but you still get to be heroes despite that, while many of the settings here deconstruct superheroes too much to the point where there is not much point in being one, and thus I want to play a setting where superheroes make sense, not one where they automatically get de-supered, or it all automatically becomes apocalyptic or something like that.

:smallconfused: So supply an alternative that fits that then without failing your own desired criteria? :smalltongue:


I'd rather play a setting where people are still trying to figure out what to do about superheroes and all the problems they bring. one that clearly shows that there is going to be lots of problems here- but not one that ruins the concept of the superhero, one that gives you a choice about what superheroes should be while surrounded on all sides by people who disagree with you. because all these deconstructions do is give answers. if I want to make a setting where they make sense, I want to do something far greater: Ask questions. first question: what is a superhero?

That's definitely one way to approach it, introduce supers into a setting which previously did not have them so that there's been no time for monolithic blocs of supers or manipulating them to form.

And of course they're answers. You ask a question, you're usually going to get answers rather than koans. :smalltongue:


Oh, come on. Like you wouldn't play a game in a setting full of flamboyant Robin Hood gangs with superpowers. It'd be like a cross between The Warriors and One Piece. Or it'd just be JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.

I mean, I guess it wouldn't exactly be a superhero game anymore, but it'd be fun as hell.

Color me intrigued, at least.


gaining powers by eating fruit is not only silly it is stupid in that they should wear off in a few hours because its just food and not permanent

You're able to accept super powers. You're presumably able to accept magic due to your presence here and the Exalted-related Avatar you're rocking. But you're not able to swallow the idea of magical consumables that apply a template or special power that only reform after the person who possesses the template dies? :smallconfused:


the world, even without the devil fruits makes no sense, the look and feel of it is creepy, strange, with odd colors and at times, it makes me feel less like I'm looking at an actual world, but a cobbled together circus facsimile of one, so transparently false and stitched together that it makes me think of all those failed clown characters on tv that know that children no longer laugh at them and in fact are scared of them, but unlike most of them, are living in a steadfast near insane denial of reality, trying to capture a dream that never was. you may enjoy your creepy circus world of messed up biology and a children's version of pirates, but never make the mistake in assuming that I share your preference.

I think you've stumbled upon part of the appeal but instead of treating it as an element of comedy you treat it as horror, almost body-horror, of all things.


I do not much point in such a game in general. a bunch of eternally smiling heroes going on cheery adventures, experiencing no true pain and generally being happy-go-lucky for no reason? it would be hollow and pointless for me. a badly built mask of cheeriness that wouldn't capture truth or true feelings of happiness or fulfillment.

I can all but guarantee that was not what was posited.


as for Jojo' Bizarre Adventure, I have not read it, but it being so long running like One Piece, I can already tell that it is similar. the things you list are in eternal stasis, forever stuck in a false joyland. their goals, always delayed and deferred. their journeys never ending. no true fulfillment, only forever seeking but never reaching. spare me such things. I have better fare to focus upon.

You really ought not to just proclaim things about that which you have no idea like that. :smalltongue:

Zavoniki
2014-06-21, 09:56 AM
That's weird. Usually players are supposed to not want to throw their characters away once they start actually accomplishing what they set out to do. :smallconfused:

Yes, usually. And to be fair you can get pretty close to the edge without going over(9 dice(5 tactic, 4 strategy) versus 10 dice(5 tactic, 5 strategy)). It's a strange curve in that you get more and more powerful right up until the Demon can drag you to hell(when your primary strategy is at 5). Also getting more powerful and accomplishing your goals are not remotely close to the same thing in this system. Part of what makes the system is interesting is that character growth doesn't always mean that you character gets more powerful.

Lord Raziere
2014-06-21, 10:04 AM
You're able to accept super powers. You're presumably able to accept magic due to your presence here and the Exalted-related Avatar you're rocking. But you're not able to swallow the idea of magical consumables that apply a template or special power that only reform after the person who possesses the template dies? :smallconfused:


Yes. Is this problematic?

Tvtyrant
2014-06-21, 10:31 AM
sigh. leave it to nerds to ruin their own enjoyment of something because they want it to make sense. I'd rather make a setting where things are believable and real to a degree, but still fun and game-able rather than the settings everyone is suggesting here.

Not even just slightly offensive. I think most people who engage in these activities do actually do it for fun, and your post really reads "leave it to nerds to ruin my sense of enjoyment." To which I say you don't have to participate.

Lord Raziere
2014-06-21, 10:33 AM
Not even just slightly offensive. I think most people who engage in these activities do actually do it for fun, and your post really reads "leave it to nerds to ruin my sense of enjoyment." To which I say you don't have to participate.

I did not exclude myself from that comment.

TandemChelipeds
2014-06-21, 10:34 AM
I hate One Piece. The protagonist is an idiot, the entire crew are basically robots with weakness modes activated by certain conditions that never fail to make them completely useless, gaining powers by eating fruit is not only silly it is stupid in that they should wear off in a few hours because its just food and not permanent, after a while the plots become predictable as clockwork and never more entertaining. the world, even without the devil fruits makes no sense, the look and feel of it is creepy, strange, with odd colors and at times, it makes me feel less like I'm looking at an actual world, but a cobbled together circus facsimile of one, so transparently false and stitched together that it makes me think of all those failed clown characters on tv that know that children no longer laugh at them and in fact are scared of them, but unlike most of them, are living in a steadfast near insane denial of reality, trying to capture a dream that never was. you may enjoy your creepy circus world of messed up biology and a children's version of pirates, but never make the mistake in assuming that I share your preference.

I do not much point in such a game in general. a bunch of eternally smiling heroes going on cheery adventures, experiencing no true pain and generally being happy-go-lucky for no reason? it would be hollow and pointless for me. a badly built mask of cheeriness that wouldn't capture truth or true feelings of happiness or fulfillment. as for Jojo' Bizarre Adventure, I have not read it, but it being so long running like One Piece, I can already tell that it is similar. the things you list are in eternal stasis, forever stuck in a false joyland. their goals, always delayed and deferred. their journeys never ending. no true fulfillment, only forever seeking but never reaching. spare me such things. I have better fare to focus upon.

Yeah, I haven't actually seen or read much One Piece. It just seemed like the most convenient point of reference. As for JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, it is a long-running shonen manga, but it avoids a lot of the common pitfalls by employing a radically different story structure from most of them. It's a generational epic, loosely following the history of the world from the 19th century to the present(until it splits off into a parallel timeline and reverts to the 19th century; but even then, it's more of an Old West story than the Victorian Part 1). There's a definite sense of progression, even if it's campy as hell. Each part introduces new plot elements, and though they're undeniably weird(and generally run on insane troll logic), they are internally consistent. It probably helps that all the protagonists are antiheroes who contrast each other, a bit like the structure of Doctor Who. Each part is basically what you'd get if you combined Fist of the North Star with something from an entirely different genre.

Part 1: Hokuto no Ken + Castlevania, starring an ideal hero who punches vampires to death versus his adopted brother, a sociopathic vampire with body horror superpowers
Part 2: Hokuto no Ken + Indiana Jones, starring a trickster figure who takes refuge in audacity to unbelievable levels versus the last remnant of the superhuman race from the dawn of time that created the vampires
Part 3: Hokuto no Ken + Journey to the West, starring a gritty, stoic Japanese delinquent versus the surviving villain from Part 1, who has acquired psychic powers
Part 4: Hokuto no Ken + Twin Peaks, starring a genuinely nice guy who loves to gamble and gets touchy about his hair versus a superpowered serial killer who wants to avoid discovery and live a normal life
Part 5: Hokuto no Ken + Goodfellas, starring the child of the original villain as a manipulative bastard with Robin Hoodish tendencies versus a mysterious mob boss who seeks to rule the world
Part 6: Hokuto no Ken + Orange is the New Black, starring an outrageously clever action girl versus the ex-boyfriend of the original villain, who wishes to realize his vision in his stead
Part 7: Hokuto no Ken + a western, starring a bromance between a disillusioned horse jockey and an executioner with a heart of gold versus the president of the united states
Part 8: something really weird, starring someone really weird

Coidzor
2014-06-21, 01:31 PM
Yes, usually. And to be fair you can get pretty close to the edge without going over(9 dice(5 tactic, 4 strategy) versus 10 dice(5 tactic, 5 strategy)). It's a strange curve in that you get more and more powerful right up until the Demon can drag you to hell(when your primary strategy is at 5). Also getting more powerful and accomplishing your goals are not remotely close to the same thing in this system. Part of what makes the system is interesting is that character growth doesn't always mean that you character gets more powerful.

Mostly it's that if the players are the Demons and don't get anything for dragging their avatar to hell other than a chance to get a new one it's kinda kooky to me. If the players are the villains and just have demons that'll drag them to hell if they perform in certain ways it makes more sense to me, it's still different, but I can grok it without further exposition, I think.

So I suppose I'm just slightly confused as to which it is or if it's a both-and sort of thing.


I did not exclude myself from that comment.

Your tone and entry into the conversation did that for you just fine. One of those situations where what wasn't said communicated several things on its own. :/


Yes. Is this problematic?

Probably?

SlyGuyMcFly
2014-06-21, 04:16 PM
Go read all 2.6 million words of Worm. Your questions are, for the most part, addressed.

This. Start here (http://parahumans.wordpress.com/2011/06/11/1-1/). Pretty much every one of the things the OP asks about are either fully justified in-story, or simply avoided. Like, why don't they kill the villains? Because Worm's super-prison for supers actually is a god-damn super-prison for supers and nobody has ever managed to escape it. No need to execute the Joker when you actually have the guarantee he'll be rotting in prison forever. Why doesn't the government have special response teams to deal with supers? The government has exactly that. They are called Parahuman Response Teams and exist in all cities with notable parahuman populations. And so on.

Please keep in mind the early writing is pretty weak as the author was still finding their style learning as they went. Improvement is nothing short of exponential.

Zavoniki
2014-06-23, 12:12 AM
Mostly it's that if the players are the Demons and don't get anything for dragging their avatar to hell other than a chance to get a new one it's kinda kooky to me. If the players are the villains and just have demons that'll drag them to hell if they perform in certain ways it makes more sense to me, it's still different, but I can grok it without further exposition, I think.

So I suppose I'm just slightly confused as to which it is or if it's a both-and sort of thing.

Ahh got it, Yeah you play a human and the Demon to the player on your left(at character creation if you change your seating order. Demons do not switch hosts for reasons that are beyond the 4th wall). I don't think there's a mechanical reward for demons that drag people to hell(though there is for having someone sin/get more powerful, as that powers up the demon). If it happens that human/Demon pair make a new character. Similarly if a human successfully exorcises his demon, that human/demon pair make a new character(usually). It's not something that supposed to happen often or even at all during a campaign. It's more of a built in narrative end goal with mechanical support for the relationship between human and Demon.

The Oni
2014-06-23, 12:41 AM
This one time on a free-form RP site, there was an RP that featured a setting where a huge corporation "ran" superhero-supervillain conflicts like pro wrestling as a way to not so much prevent the collateral damage but to plan and control it. There were openly corporate sponsored hero teams (and secretly corporate sponsored villain teams) and a sort of code of conduct that prevented heroes and villains from killing eachother or messing with eachothers' families and friends too bad if their identities were discovered. When villains were thrown in "jail" they'd really be taken to huge compounds that were basically secret luxury estates, except for the fact that they couldn't leave until they were due to "escape." Both heroes and villains were paid exorbitant salaries, as long as they played by the rules.

Some especially powerful heroes and villains were actually on "enforcer teams," paid even more highly, and would be used to actually kill a rogue hero or villain who knew too much or refused to play by the rules - or a more mundane target, like a belligerent third world dictator. Others were sent on military missions or public service campaigns, and some could even be hired for endorsement deals for various products. And the whole shebang was heavily implied to have taken place after a massive superperson war, with the super-survivors of said conflict having even founded the original corporation as a way to prevent it from ever happening again.

Thinker
2014-06-23, 12:38 PM
It's easy enough to justify the powers of a superhero via suspension of disbelief. However, the society where super heroes exist is somehow heavier on suspension of disbelief.

Why aren't they working with the police force? Why don't they kill the baddies? Why do they wear silly clothes? Why doesn't the government form military and police units able to stop super beings instead of relying on random citizens for defence? Why do super villains act similarly to super heroes (funny clothes, being ineffective at killing, etc.)? Why do so many super heroes make use of fisticuffs even when weapons would be genuinely handy to them? And why are there so many incompetent criminals that super heroes can beat up without risk?

If you wanted to make a plausible super hero setting, how would you get around questions that occur with many super hero stories?

These are interesting questions to answer for a superhero setting. I think that there are several problems with a traditional setting, like what you mentioned. Here are some ways I can think of that might be plausible for explaining those away.

The police force exists to enforce the law. Many super heroes do work with the police, though many more do not. Those who do would likely work as consultants, receiving payment for assistance in solving cases and stopping crime. These heroes would be more like detectives, using their abilities to solve crimes rather than just punching bad guys. I don't think the police would often let the super hero capture bad guys in this case due to the danger introduced in letting a civilian on the front lines of an arrest (possibly with SWAT or an anti-Super task force). The police rarely want mercenaries.

Instances of not working with the police would be due to police forces being rife with corruption. Why bother working with people who are either committing the crimes themselves or are in the pocket of criminal elements? There might be some trusted individuals within the force who could work with individual super heroes. In this case, the police are a part of the problem.

Another reason not to work with the police is that the villain is so far beyond the abilities of the police that it would be dangerous for them to go after the criminals. Who cares that the bad guy is brought to justice if it cost fifty police officers to do so? This becomes much more plausible with very powerful villains like the sort who Superman or the X-Men fight, rather than most of Spiderman or Batman's foes.

Not killing bad guys doesn't strain my suspension of disbelief nearly as much. Homicide is illegal, even if the victim is doing something illegal. Under most codes of law, the only time that it is acceptable to kill is when it directly saves someone's life. While a vigilante might employ some illegal methods in pursuit of justice, those are all minor compared to murder. It would be easier to kill, but being heroic isn't about taking the easy way out. Many villains began with altruistic intentions only to take the easy way out.

Silly clothes are an evolution. No one woke up one day and said, "I'm going to fight crime in my pajamas!" For crime fighters, they began because the vigilantes knew what they were doing was illegal and that they'd face retaliation from friends of those who they brought to justice so they wore disguises. The same goes for criminals - you don't want the cops to know who you are and you don't want the people you steal from to be able to get revenge. For super soldiers, it was a modified uniform, altered based on their powers. Foreign supers came over and simply wore traditional garb, possibly modified to suit their special abilities. Over time, they became more elaborate, became a fashion and status symbol. At some point, people began to individualize their costumes more than ever before for recognition as their alter ego. It still serves to protect their true identity, but also gives recognition, prestige, and possibly fame (or infamy). It becomes a part of their new identity.

Military and government groups are a staple of comic books. There are individuals, agencies, and policies directed at controlling supers. The Hulk has General General Ross after him. Wolverine was an unwilling part of the Weapon X experiments. The Marvel Civil War was entirely about a new law designed to control powered individuals. The X-Men constantly lobby against new laws designed to restrict and control mutants. I'm not as familiar with DC comics, but I think that the D.E.O. (and Suicide Squad) deal pretty heavily with controlling supers. These groups fail to fully contain and control supers for the same reason that crime still exists: it is impossible to control everyone all the time. Random citizens aren't the only line of defense, but they can be effective.

Villains act similar to the heroes because they are cut from the same cloth. The outfits have similar origins - avoiding identification being pretty important so long as you can keep it private. Real life criminals do that, too. They avoid killing for the same reasons that real life criminals don't kill; there's no need, they have moral qualms, or both. Mexican drug cartels kill a lot of people in their wars, but they don't kill all of their victims. The Mafia is responsible for thousands of murders, but they recognize that dead businessmen don't pay protection money. They'll kill if they have to, but if they don't have to they won't.

Some super heroes do use gadgets or other weapons to enhance their abilities, but many of them don't need them. More could probably benefit from using some sort of weapon, but in the end it rarely matters. Would Superman with a gun be any more effective? Does it matter if people shoot at the Invisible Woman when she can create a force field to block the weapons? Gadgets and the like are much more common in lower-powered heroes. Green Arrow uses a bow for various reasons; Spiderman has his web shooters; Iron Man and Batman use lots of gadgets; Daredevil has his beating stick (and I wouldn't want a blind man to have a gun).

The risk of losing is often real for super heroes. The gallery of their opponents is of similarly powered individuals. The stories that are told are always about successful super heroes. You don't hear about Shattered Window, the kid who took on King Pin, infiltrated his compound, got caught and had his neck broken. Do you think Batman is the only guy who thinks that Gotham is worth saving? No, but he's the first one to have any success. For every time that Magneto looks like a fool against the X-Men, there are a dozen other times where he looked like a genius, but the comics aren't about that.

Alternatively, some really are incompetent. If they can use their powers as a crutch, they don't need good plans or be good with a gun. Sabretooth steals a tractor trailer filled with munitions by simply being unkillable and easily able to overpower the guards and drive off with the spoils - no real thinking involved except maybe to find out where the truck is going to stop to refuel. On the other hand, if the X-Men offer to guard the shipment because they know Sabretooth wants it, his plan looks silly trying to take the whole team on.

SimonMoon6
2014-06-23, 01:14 PM
Why aren't they working with the police force?

Some of them are.

Batman has a famous connection to the police force and (in the Golden Age) even possessed a special diamond-encrusted badge to signify his position as a deputized lawman, given to him by the police force (only seen once, so he could use it to get him out of a scrape later in the story). Of course, in the Modern Age, things get silly when Batman has a virtual army of helpers (one of which is a policeman in his secret identity!).

But the main reason nobody works with the police force: the police are ineffective. In the real world, the police are the best hope you've got, but in comics, that's never the case. Even leaving out the fact that in some cities, the police force is horribly corrupt, the police simply aren't able to keep up with the various situations.

Plus, it depends on the hero. Batman's a mere mortal, so he works with the cops because he needs all the help he can get. But Superman? Suppose there's an alien invasion about to attack the Earth? Or a crisis in another galaxy? Or Doomsday has arrived again? The police can't help Superman or Green Lantern or anybody really. Suppose there's a terrorist about to blow up Atlantis? Cops can't help Aquaman.

Police simply aren't relevant when you get to a certain power level.

And then you have groups like the Avengers that work with SHIELD enough that they effectively *are* working with the police... except instead of police, it's the army.



Why don't they kill the baddies?

Because if they did, public support for them would diminish. It's one thing to be an outlaw vigilante. It's another thing to be a *murderous* outlaw vigilante. Killing people without a trial is a real moral no-no. Better to let society decide what the right course of action is. It's more a failing of the courts than a failing of the superheroes that certain villains are left alive.

And not all the bad guys are murder-worthy. Some of them are just thieves. And then sometimes, a hero gets to marry the baddies (or in the new continuity, have sex with them).

And, really, comics would suck if they had to come up with new supervillains all the time.



Why do they wear silly clothes?

The same reason that athletes do: freedom of movement. You don't want to wear loose flowing clothing when you're doing acrobatics. You don't want it to be easy for someone to grab your shirt in a fight, so it's better if it's skin-tight. (Capes, um, well capes are hard to justify.)

Plus, a sense of style. And in Batman's case, it's to be scary.

And I'm sure there's some peer pressure. (All the cool kids wear their undies outside their pants!)

Plus, there's the pre-Crisis Superman's costume, made of the only material that's as invulnerable as he is. That way, he can fly into the sun and not instantly have his clothes burn off. And at Marvel, they've got something called unstable molecules that lets you use your powers with your clothes (so the Human Torch won't burn off his clothes and Invisible Woman can make her clothes invisible along with herself); I'm pretty sure these unstable molecules only come in spandex-flavor.


Why doesn't the government form military and police units able to stop super beings instead of relying on random citizens for defence?

They try but they always suck. Metropolis had the Metropolis S.C.U. (Special Crimes Unit). And then there was the HDC (Human Defense Corps). And of course, there's SHIELD. Not to mention UNIT. But really, a bunch of normal humans are always going to suck against any real super-threat. That's why we have superheroes in the first place.


Why do super villains act similarly to super heroes (funny clothes, being ineffective at killing, etc.)?

The thing about criminals is... they're not smart. They do stupid things because they're stupid. That's as true in real life as it is in the comics.

Funny clothes? Well, they want to look stylish. They want some street cred and you're not gonna get it wearing normal clothes? No, better to wear brightly-colored spandex to show what a badass you are.

And many supervillains are quite effective at killing. The Joker, for example (which goes back to "why doesn't anybody kill him?"). They just don't kill the heroes... because the heroes are so good at not being killed. And some villains enjoy toying with the heroes too much to kill them.



Why do so many super heroes make use of fisticuffs even when weapons would be genuinely handy to them?

Well, you don't want to be a lame-ass hero, right? Only a really lame-ass hero would run around with a gun. At that point, you might as well call yourself Ordinary Man, fighting crime in the ordinary way!

Also, guns are pretty much for killing, which most heroes are against. (And Batman himself is totally anti-gun, but pro-weapons like batarangs and the occasional freeze gun taken from Mr Freeze.) And once you get up to a certain power level, weapons are pointless. Superman with a gun or armor or anything like that? Dumb. That's as dumb as those toys which gave the Flash a motorcycle.

And then, you get to the medium-power-level heroes, like Spider-Man. Would he be better off with a gun? I don't really think so. Plus, it would just give more credence to J. Jonah Jameson's anti-Spider-Man articles ("Now he's running around with a gun!"). Again, it's one thing to be an outlaw vigilante, it's another thing entirely to be a gun-toting outlaw vigilante.

And if the X-men all had guns, they'd be a gun-toting militia... of mutants! Being mutants is bad enough, but a gun toting militia? Yeah, people wouldn't be scared of that at all.



And why are there so many incompetent criminals that super heroes can beat up without risk?

Why are there so many criminals? Or why are they incompetent? Most criminals are incompetent. If they were smart, they'd realize that crime doesn't pay... or at least not petty crime (become a banker if you want to engage in successful crime!). I do often wonder how there can be so many criminals that someone just walking around the city will encounter crime constantly. Certain cities are just bad places to live, I guess.



If you wanted to make a plausible super hero setting, how would you get around questions that occur with many super hero stories?

You can either throw out all the elements that make super-heroes seem silly... at which point you don't have a super-hero universe anymore. Or you can accept that super-heroes are inherently silly and embrace the silliness.

Unfortunately, a lot of comic writers these days seem embarrassed by the tropes of superheroes (costumes, code-names, powers, villains, etc) and try to use them as little as possible, which can end up making for a very bland read.

Ravens_cry
2014-06-23, 01:33 PM
Superpowers are like zombies, they sometimes make the most sense when you don't try to super-justify them and just work through the consequences of the abilities. That's always fun, but trying to explain every detail how it works is just an exercise in failure.
As for superheroes, well, you'd probably need a society that had a more favourable history of vigilantism, because that's what most superheroes are, vigilantes. Yes, even the Big Blue Boy Scout would have a hard time with the law. It's why most real superheroes tend to be mainly people in costumes that work on raising public support, and cheering up sick kids, with, perhaps, some citizen arrests as opposed to going around beating up muggers and collaring bank robbers.

Raimun
2014-06-23, 02:52 PM
http://www.grrlpowercomic.com/
Beat you to it.

Thanks for the link. This one seems like a good read, after 50+ strips. It's been ages since I've found a new and interesting webcomic.

Raimun
2014-06-23, 02:59 PM
Superpowers are like zombies, they sometimes make the most sense when you don't try to super-justify them and just work through the consequences of the abilities. That's always fun, but trying to explain every detail how it works is just an exercise in failure.
As for superheroes, well, you'd probably need a society that had a more favourable history of vigilantism, because that's what most superheroes are, vigilantes. Yes, even the Big Blue Boy Scout would have a hard time with the law. It's why most real superheroes tend to be mainly people in costumes that work on raising public support, and cheering up sick kids, with, perhaps, some citizen arrests as opposed to going around beating up muggers and collaring bank robbers.

I agree, except for one thing. It's the law that would have a hard time with the Big Blue Boy Scout. Someone like Superman doesn't need to mind the law, if he doesn't want to. I don't read DC but I imagine the law enforcement of Metropolis just ignore any violations of law Superman commits, since he has a reputation of playing nice and saving people... in addition to the fact that they know they couldn't arrest him, unless he played along.

Lord Raziere
2014-06-23, 03:50 PM
I agree, except for one thing. It's the law that would have a hard time with the Big Blue Boy Scout. Someone like Superman doesn't need to mind the law, if he doesn't want to. I don't read DC but I imagine the law enforcement of Metropolis just ignore any violations of law Superman commits, since he has a reputation of playing nice and saving people... in addition to the fact that they know they couldn't arrest him, unless he played along.

yeah, I plan on writing a superhero that is pretty much Superman but as a supporting character who is kind of a jerk to point out that if he existed, how would you deal with a Superman if they weren't a complete paragon of goodness?

TandemChelipeds
2014-06-23, 04:27 PM
yeah, I plan on writing a superhero that is pretty much Superman but as a supporting character who is kind of a jerk to point out that if he existed, how would you deal with a Superman if they weren't a complete paragon of goodness?

I'm still curious about your response to my summary of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.

A Tad Insane
2014-06-23, 04:28 PM
If superman is stopping the government from doing a war crime he doesn't agree with, how will the stop him?
Further more, if you manage to train and equip a group that can efficiently take him down, what do you do if there are 100 more people with his level of power, half wanting to do things that are generally deemed evil, and the other half trying to stop hem and all the none super powered crooks?

TandemChelipeds
2014-06-23, 04:30 PM
If superman is stopping the government from doing a war crime he doesn't agree with, how will the stop him?
Further more, if you manage to train and equip a group that can efficiently take him down, what do you do if there are 100 more people with his level of power, half wanting to do things that are generally deemed evil, and the other half trying to stop hem and all the none super powered crooks?

I think that's called Dragonball Z.

Ravens_cry
2014-06-23, 04:40 PM
I agree, except for one thing. It's the law that would have a hard time with the Big Blue Boy Scout. Someone like Superman doesn't need to mind the law, if he doesn't want to. I don't read DC but I imagine the law enforcement of Metropolis just ignore any violations of law Superman commits, since he has a reputation of playing nice and saving people... in addition to the fact that they know they couldn't arrest him, unless he played along.
Well, yes, but that's still the same problem, just stated differently. Of course, Superman is so gosh darn terrific, that, in many cases, if he did break the law in a way the police couldn't reasonably ignore, he'd probably turn himself in anyway.

TandemChelipeds
2014-06-23, 04:45 PM
Well, yes, but that's still the same problem, just stated differently. Of course, Superman is so gosh darn terrific, that, in many cases, if he did break the law in a way the police couldn't reasonably ignore, he'd probably turn himself in anyway.

That's another thing: How much would Superman actually suffer in prison, aside from fretting about the state of the outside world? It's not like he can get shanked. It's not like he can have... various other unpleasant things happen to him. He's Superman, he's indestructable. Hell, by the time he was released, he might well have reformed half the inmates, just by being tough enough to get away with having principles.

Lord Raziere
2014-06-23, 04:48 PM
I'm still curious about your response to my summary of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.

It still sounds like stupid out of nowhere sillyrandom nonsense I don't want any truck with.

Raimun
2014-06-23, 04:58 PM
Of course, there's this series of Mitchell and Webb-sketches (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u0phvI8Gkk) which highlight how it might be a problem that random people could gain super powers.

Mr Beer
2014-06-23, 05:20 PM
sigh. leave it to nerds to ruin their own enjoyment of something because they want it to make sense. I'd rather make a setting where things are believable and real to a degree, but still fun and game-able rather than the settings everyone is suggesting here.

Thank you for saving everyone from experiencing the wrong kind of RPG setting, one you wouldn't enjoy. It seems you like you are the true superhero in this thread.

A Tad Insane
2014-06-23, 05:22 PM
I think that's called Dragonball Z.

In other words, no government can, because it's practically impossible

Ravens_cry
2014-06-23, 05:57 PM
Superman is actually fairly easy to put down if he goes rogue compared to many superheroes and super being. A lead jacketed jacketed kryptonite bullet should do nicely. He probably wouldn't even dodge, preferring to block things with his chest, and he'd be unable to see the bullet had kryptonite inside because, you know, lead. It doesn't just stop ethnocentric bitches from oppressing halfling culture.:belkar:

That's another thing: How much would Superman actually suffer in prison, aside from fretting about the state of the outside world? It's not like he can get shanked. It's not like he can have... various other unpleasant things happen to him. He's Superman, he's indestructable. Hell, by the time he was released, he might well have reformed half the inmates, just by being tough enough to get away with having principles.
The fact that he isn't out helping people would probably be the worst torture of all for Supes, knowing that, because he crossed a line he promised he wouldn't, people on Earth and even other planets are suffering thanks to super villains and disasters he could have helped avert or rectify.

tomandtish
2014-06-23, 05:58 PM
yeah, I plan on writing a superhero that is pretty much Superman but as a supporting character who is kind of a jerk to point out that if he existed, how would you deal with a Superman if they weren't a complete paragon of goodness?

May I suggest watching the film Hancock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hancock_(film))?

TandemChelipeds
2014-06-23, 06:38 PM
It still sounds like stupid out of nowhere sillyrandom nonsense I don't want any truck with.

Eh. It still isn't anything like One Piece. I'd say it's less "lolrandom" than "hair metal". Anime-wise, it feels like old-school fighting anime like Fist of the North Star, but I think it feels more like pulp. The plots are dominated by tragedy, drama, and horror; they just tend to be very over-the-top and silly (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wKnu4joWJs) about it. Characters die, and other characters mourn them. Everyone has development, even card-carrying villains like Dio Brando. The fights also tend to be very tactical and have less to do with power levels than clever applications of useless-sounding abilities; characters still win on the merit of their determination, but more in that they're willing to do incredibly painful things to themselves as part of their strategies. But I won't bother persuading you anymore.

All I'm saying is, I'd play a game about gang fights that go like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CNrNQjWGHI

Lord Raziere
2014-06-23, 06:39 PM
May I suggest watching the film Hancock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hancock_(film))?

I already have. I want to expand on that, as I thought the examination was a little too short.

SpoonR
2014-06-24, 07:46 AM
One big problem is how do you avoid accidental kills when people can run the gamut from sickly old person to comfortable-inside-a-star level endurance, and strength likewise. Even between supers, you can have a Scion-type problem where you are really tough, but the other guy is still much stronger.

:roy: :xykon:

At a bare minimum, I think you'd need the Hollywood 'I can reliably KO someone of known toughness by punching them in the head'. Also important would be a correlation between toughness and something like 'aura' & then aura scanners, criminal dossiers, and sensor-type heroes. Maybe superheros routinely wear power restrictors to keep from accidently using full strength. Halfway through the battle you know the baddy is really tough so you take off the eyepatch.

TandemChelipeds
2014-06-24, 09:35 AM
One big problem is how do you avoid accidental kills when people can run the gamut from sickly old person to comfortable-inside-a-star level endurance, and strength likewise. Even between supers, you can have a Scion-type problem where you are really tough, but the other guy is still much stronger.

:roy: :xykon:

At a bare minimum, I think you'd need the Hollywood 'I can reliably KO someone of known toughness by punching them in the head'. Also important would be a correlation between toughness and something like 'aura' & then aura scanners, criminal dossiers, and sensor-type heroes. Maybe superheros routinely wear power restrictors to keep from accidently using full strength. Halfway through the battle you know the baddy is really tough so you take off the eyepatch.

"Vegeta, what does the scouter say about his power level?"

Storm_Of_Snow
2014-06-24, 11:29 AM
Why aren't they working with the police force?

Not the right age? (eg, Peter Parker)
Wouldn't pass the psychological evaluations? (Most of them are pretty messed up in the head)
Being part of an organised unit could limit their ability to act independantly, especially when they might need to skirt the edges of the law (or outright break it for a greater good)?
Not native to that country (Black Widow), or even that world (Thor) and thus a potential security risk?
Feel that being co-opted to the government would risk their abilities being used for malevolent ends (basically why Tony Stark is at a congressional hearing as to why he doesn't give Iron Man suits to the US Govenment at the start of the second movie)?

And there's also the potential for an arms race - if the cops have, say Batman, the criminals will probably start loading up with heavier guns and armour piercing ammunition to stand a chance at taking him down, which leads to more regular cops and innocent bystanders getting injured or killed, and Batman loading up with heavier equipment himself.

On a related note, if they were part of a law enforcement body, that body would be responsible for all the damage they caused, which would stick their civil liabilities insurance premiums up massively.

And Batman was basically working with Gotham Police in the Adam West series. :smallwink: Plus you had Sara Pezzini as the lead character in Witchblade, who was a cop.



Why don't they kill the baddies?

Some do - The Punisher, for example.



Why do they wear silly clothes?

To make them stand out on the page and especially the front covers, and allow the artist to show how well he can draw human (particularly female) anatomy.

Oh, you mean the in-universe reasons. :smallwink:

In some cases ego (Iron Man), in some cases as a part of their modus operandi (Batman), in some cases as armour (Batman again), for personal reasons (**** Grayson's Robin costume is to honour his dead family), and of course to hide their identity and keep their friends and family safe from reprisals - highly visible ones like Tony Stark are in the minority.

There's also a few that have no choice as to certain items of dress - Cyclops' glasses/visor, for example.



Why doesn't the government form military and police units able to stop super beings instead of relying on random citizens for defence?

That's kind of what Captain America became in WW2, but you've also got things like the World Intelligence Network of Joe 90, Nemesis in The Champions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Champions), the vampire hunters organisation in Ultraviolet, the Sentinels from X-Men, groups like SHIELD, and the pro-registration side of the whole Marvel Civil War story line.

Groups like The Initiative in Buffy, and UNIT and Torchwood in the Dr Who universe could potentially qualify as well. And more independant groups (Buffy's Watchers Council for example) could either receive unofficial government support, or have once been government departments that have since split off. And crossing out of pure superheroes, there's an episode of Angel where the US military co-opt him into working for them during WW2, while the Highlander series had a few episodes with Duncan McLoed fighting in the Pennisula campaign of the Napoleonic wars.

There's also a few series that have had "cape-killers", government sanctioned supe's responsible for controlling other supe's.



Why do super villains act similarly to super heroes (funny clothes, being ineffective at killing, etc.)?

Exactly the same reasons the heroes do - probably more cases of ego than protecting their friends/family though.



Why do so many super heroes make use of fisticuffs even when weapons would be genuinely handy to them?

To try and limit collateral damage. Plus some might see it as a point of honour.


Now, if you're asking why mass murdering supervillains don't get the death penalty? Well... considering how long it takes to execute people, even in states where that's an option, the Joker probably is on Death Row. He just won't get through his last appeal for another 20 years.
The Joker, like the rest of the in-and-out-patients of Arkham Asylum, is deemed to be insane, therefore he's not really eligible for the death penalty (and yes, I know there have been examples where it has been applied in such cases) - he either spends the rest of his life in Arkham, or they eventually cure him.

Garimeth
2014-06-24, 02:08 PM
This. Start here (http://parahumans.wordpress.com/2011/06/11/1-1/). Pretty much every one of the things the OP asks about are either fully justified in-story, or simply avoided. Like, why don't they kill the villains? Because Worm's super-prison for supers actually is a god-damn super-prison for supers and nobody has ever managed to escape it. No need to execute the Joker when you actually have the guarantee he'll be rotting in prison forever. Why doesn't the government have special response teams to deal with supers? The government has exactly that. They are called Parahuman Response Teams and exist in all cities with notable parahuman populations. And so on.

Please keep in mind the early writing is pretty weak as the author was still finding their style learning as they went. Improvement is nothing short of exponential.

Thank you for sharing that, its awesome.

I3igAl
2014-06-24, 02:40 PM
Why aren't they working with the police force?
They don't want to share their loot.


Why don't they kill the baddies?
If the baddies return, they can get XP again.


Why do they wear silly clothes?
Those things gives great bonusses.


Why doesn't the government form military and police units able to stop super beings instead of relying on random citizens for defence?
NPCs are stupid.


Why do super villains act similarly to super heroes (funny clothes, being ineffective at killing, etc.)?
The GM is pulling his punches.


Why do so many super heroes make use of fisticuffs even when weapons would be genuinely handy to them? And why are there so many incompetent criminals that super heroes can beat up without risk?
There is no feat support for those weapons.

SimonMoon6
2014-06-24, 03:33 PM
yeah, I plan on writing a superhero that is pretty much Superman but as a supporting character who is kind of a jerk to point out that if he existed, how would you deal with a Superman if they weren't a complete paragon of goodness?

Have you seen this site:

http://superdickery.com/

That's another thing: How much would Superman actually suffer in prison, aside from fretting about the state of the outside world? It's not like he can get shanked. It's not like he can have... various other unpleasant things happen to him. He's Superman, he's indestructable. Hell, by the time he was released, he might well have reformed half the inmates, just by being tough enough to get away with having principles.

There's a story where some criminals set up a situation in which Superman accidentally breaks the law repeatedly. After the third time, the judge reluctantly realizes that he has to put Superman in jail. But it all works out as Superman manages to stop a lot of crimes even while behind bars.

Doorhandle
2014-06-25, 02:35 AM
It's easy enough to justify the powers of a superhero via suspension of disbelief. However, the society where super heroes exist is somehow heavier on suspension of disbelief.

1.Why aren't they working with the police force? 2.Why don't they kill the baddies? 3.Why do they wear silly clothes? 4.Why doesn't the government form military and police units able to stop super beings instead of relying on random citizens for defence? 5. Why do super villains act similarly to super heroes (funny clothes, being ineffective at killing, etc.)? 6.Why do so many super heroes make use of fisticuffs even when weapons would be genuinely handy to them? 7.And why are there so many incompetent criminals that super heroes can beat up without risk?

If you wanted to make a plausible super hero setting, how would you get around questions that occur with many super hero stories?

Many ways. You could ignore the cliches entirely, for instance. Don't understand the costumes? Then they just don't wear them. It could also vary between groups in the setting. The Punisher and Spiderman disagree on the entire killing thing despite being in the same shared universe.

You could also attempt to justify the things that cause these questions. for instance:

1. They may hate "the man" and think they can do better, the police could be corrupt, they can't get in due to a previous criminal record, or the fact that they're a barely-legal vigilante may put them on thin ice. None of those cases would be universal though.
2. Legal issues as said, but especially for civilian heroes, they're' probably uncomfortable with it.
A more unexplored territory is why aren't more people ACCIDENTALLY killed by supers.
3. Same reason people were uniforms: let's you build a reputation, that you could potentially ditch if necessary, something both heroes and villains can benefit from. Supervillains who are just in it for profit probably don't wear them, but ones who have an ideal or are doing it for thrills probably have them. If they're after power, it's a 50-50 chance. Kingpin goes without the costume, Dr. Doom would not be seen without one. Likewise, supervillains in it for the violence probably want a suit that announces "I AM THE BADDEST GUY EVER" specifically so they get into fights.
Also, it makes sure criminals aim at the garish invulnerable man with the convenience-made target on his chest and not the squishy civilians. Plus, sometimes the suit is what gives them their powers.
4. In most superhero settings, the government is either evil,incompetent or both and anytime they attempt this is backfires on them. No real reason beside plot contrivance for this to be the case however.
5. Sparing heros could be to allow you to lighten sentence, prevent revenge attacks, or simply be the quick way in the cases of people like Wolverine or Superman. Likewise they're probably more than a few ghosts in any superhero universe and people don't always stay dead, providing more ...incentive.
6. Easier to avoid accidental casualties with fists than a handgun. Also, it prevents preemptive attacks if you're unarmed and it means you're not useless when someone DOES steal your weapons. Also, outside of america and the gun-nuttier counties, civilian handguns could be hard to find and you'll get locked at funny if you buy too many knives at once.
7. Plot convenience. Also, if you look up stupid crooks online, you'll see there are a staggering number of incompetent criminals out there.

Chd
2014-08-08, 04:37 AM
It's easy enough to justify the powers of a superhero via suspension of disbelief. However, the society where super heroes exist is somehow heavier on suspension of disbelief.

Why aren't they working with the police force? Why don't they kill the baddies? Why do they wear silly clothes? Why doesn't the government form military and police units able to stop super beings instead of relying on random citizens for defence? Why do super villains act similarly to super heroes (funny clothes, being ineffective at killing, etc.)? Why do so many super heroes make use of fisticuffs even when weapons would be genuinely handy to them? And why are there so many incompetent criminals that super heroes can beat up without risk?

If you wanted to make a plausible super hero setting, how would you get around questions that occur with many super hero stories?

I have made a setting idea that solves these questions.

1) The world is an illusion, whether you use a 'matrix' or 'Holographic Reality' to explain this.

2) 'Super Powers' are the manifestation of someone with vast will-power, a mind able to focus in 'bending' the Illusion in a way their mind is most comfortable with. There may be a lot of 'pyromancers, hydromancers, shapeshifters, super-strongmen, fliers, telekinectics etc. but few of them realize, much less control the source and manifestation of their powers: their will. Their Costumes are manifested/uploaded from their subconscious in the same way as their super-powers.

3) Just as a 'Hero' or 'Villain' can use their will-power to inflict harm/attempt to kill, almost all people have the 'will to survive', meaning their willpower, while small, prevents them from dying. This includes Neo-style making bullets stop in mid air/alter their trajectory/temporary super-strength to pull a loved one from wreckage/rubble, etc. Using your fists/a power is far more effective.

4) The Police are an army of weak-willed/normal humans, following the Architect's/Government's orders to try and contain these 'anomalies'/'empowered'/'monsters'. The BBEG, one of the few with full control of his will, is in control of the world, after using his/her powers to covertly out-compete economically, willfully dominate/enthrall leaders, and used the media to 'break' the wills of the masses, using the feeling of hopelessness to suppress potential rivals.

5) Some heroes may help the local police, but the higher-ups follow the order to 'try and shoot on sight'. A more 'empowered'/strong willed person would likely have a 'stasis zone'/'force-field' power rendering any attempt by a normal impossible.

In such a world, I'd make the BBEG a Shapeshifter (choosing the form of an Attractive Woman) with Flight, Super-Strength, Super-Speed, Super-Healing, Telekinesis, Immortality, Mind Control, Pyrokinesis, and Cryokinesis.

Having been at it for a long time, His/Her Will must be weakened before they can be taken out. Self-Doubt/Fear/Paranoia will weaken the BBEG.

Frozen_Feet
2014-08-08, 06:15 AM
Why aren't they working with the police force? Why don't they kill the baddies? Why do they wear silly clothes? Why doesn't the government form military and police units able to stop super beings instead of relying on random citizens for defence? Why do super villains act similarly to super heroes (funny clothes, being ineffective at killing, etc.)? Why do so many super heroes make use of fisticuffs even when weapons would be genuinely handy to them? And why are there so many incompetent criminals that super heroes can beat up without risk?

The big superhero universes, Marvel and DC, have eventually come to adress all these questions, at least for invidual heroes and occasionally on comic-multiverse-scale.

Batman is the classic example of a super working with cops. For a while, he even had a badge. Most superheroes probably have tried that one time or another.

Punisher is an example of super who's not averse to killing. In fact, during the 90s it was practically a craze for dark&edgy heroes kill peole left and right.

SHIELD is an example of a governmental or military force meant to deal with supers. Famous superhero teams, such as Avengers, Justice League and Lantern corps have also filled this slot at various parts of their history. I think Marvel also had an organization or two specifically devoted to dealing with mutants / X-men. One way to put it is this: once the random citizens in tights have stuck around for long enough, they cease being random citizens and cross over to being part of the establishment.

Superhero villains run the whole gamut, and many are purposedly very different from their opposing heroes. Take, for example, Kingpin, who dresses in a pretty normal suit and mostly opposes the heroes through his large and well-paid collection of goons instead of punching people directly in the face (though he's quite capable of that too). "Street-level heroes" like Spiderman and Daredevil in general tend to have a lot of enemies who are just evil rich men in a suit, even when they have powers.

Plenty of supers also make use of conventional weaponry. Again, Punisher is a good example. Those who don't often have vastly superior superpowers already (Superman), have philosophical aversion to killing (Batman) or have access to unconventional weaponry that serve the same purpose as guns. (Iron Man, X-men and their sci-fi guns etc.)

As for "incompetent criminals" who "can be beaten without risk"... let's just say that the Real World (tm) has no shortage of people for who the only excuse for breaking the law is being terminally dumb. Check Darwin Awards or just watch few episodes of Police TV. Even in absence of superheroes, jails are full of crooks who are there for no other reason than their own stupidity.


If you wanted to make a plausible super hero setting, how would you get around questions that occur with many super hero stories?

In order, based on my unpublished ideas for a superhero adventure:

Why aren't they working with the police? By default, they are. When my character invented powered armor, he immediately patented it and sold it to his nation's police and military. Then he went through all the hoops required to become an officer himself to legally kick ass in one those things. Those who aren't working with the police force are in the job for personal vengeance or some other illegal goal, or are flat-out inhuman. When a space alien and a police officer meet, co-operation has to wait for its turn as the two first try to communicate in some legible manner.

Why don't they kill baddies? Because the baddies usually can not kill them, and the local law doesn't include capital punishment. So, the baddies get captured and put into prison and if they come back, they come back after suffering their sentence. I like to actually move my stories and games forward in time, since I don't have to worry about iconic designs, old fans or any of such stuff.

Why do they wear silly clothes? Well, the aforementioned guy in power armor, to give an example, is a figurehead for the whole task force. He needs to look distinctive, because he's the campaign face. (Even then, it's mostly limited to having differently coloured armor.) In case of inhuman superheroes, they look silly because their clothes and equipment adhere to inhuman aesthetics and functionality. The guy with four arms and a tail is going to look a bit silly even naked, hey. The red, green and blue stripes on his torso inform you that you should cease and desist or he fries you with a plasma beam.

Why don't the government or militaries create units to stop superheroes? By and large they do - those units just tend to be composed of other superheroes. One guy with powered exoskeleton losing it? Send three other ones to take him down. However, everything has to start somewhere. All of the guys in the suits, they were once "random citizens" who decided to enroll in University of Defence or who came up with the necessary superhero technologies. No innovation just appears out of thin air, everything starts with people somewhere.

As for supervillains acting similar to superheroes... when they do act similar, it's because there's one squad of trained soldiers facing off another squad of trained soldiers. Most of the time, they just don't. A typical supervillain has no compunctions of breaking the law and is probably mad, desperate or unpredictable. Once again, I can entirely side-step the issue of efficiency, because I don't have a brand to preserve or a fanbase of grognards to please. People get crippled and die in my games and works.

Fisticuffs, by and large, are not the preferred weapon of my heroes. The largest group who engage in such have so much padding between themselves and the other guy that they mostly can't get hurt & they're taking down a resisting opponent that's too much for tasers but too little for guns. The other group who engage in fisticuffs strike with force of artillery shells and can throw rocks with speed of bullets - conventional weapons don't really given them anything more to work with. The favored weapons my heroes tend to be some sort of guns or restraining telekinetic powers.

tomandtish
2014-08-08, 09:16 AM
It's easy enough to justify the powers of a superhero via suspension of disbelief. However, the society where super heroes exist is somehow heavier on suspension of disbelief.

Why aren't they working with the police force?

Others have hit on some of the reasons, but here's another. Secret identities. In comics, much of the working with law enforcement is "incidental". That is, the hero may catch criminal as a form of citizen's arrest, but is not a part of law enforcement. There are exceptions of course.

Law and the Multiverse pointed out in one post that it would actually require a change in US law for heroes to be able to testify masked. That would also mean that they would make very poor law enforcement officers if they wanted to keep a secret identity. Even if they did allow it in court, SOMEONE would have to know the identity in order to say that the Spiderman testifying is the same one who arrested Goblin 2 weeks ago.

Incidentally, Law and the Multiverse is a great site that takes superhero situations and tries to see how it fits in the context of existing US law. Pretty neat. For example Is Batman a State Actor (http://lawandthemultiverse.com/2010/11/30/is-batman-a-state-actor/)?


Why don't they kill the baddies?

Some do (Wolverine, Punisher). Some are so powerful that they don't need to (Superman). Some worry that if they started, they wouldn't stop (Batman).

And remember: Unless you've changed the laws in your setting, self-defense can be a affirmative defense to a potential murder charge. It doesn't mean the murder doesn't get investigated. So if the last anyone saw of Spiderman and Goblin was a fight between them, and Goblin shows up dead, then Spiderman is going to be wanted for questioning. (This becomes an even bigger deal if it's the first time anyone realizes billionaire Norman Osborne is Goblin. They are going to be much more serious about bringing him in. And if they do, there goes the secret identity. They may even request assistance from other heroes.


Why doesn't the government form military and police units able to stop super beings instead of relying on random citizens for defence?

As others have commented, sometimes they do (SHIELD, and the Avengers has been under government control at times). Of course, if the government makes too big a deal of having supers, that could start an arms race all it's own. Maybe even specifically drafting supers (http://lawandthemultiverse.com/2014/06/24/law-and-the-multiverse-retcon-7-book-edition/).


Why do super villains act similarly to super heroes (funny clothes, being ineffective at killing, etc.)?

A lot of this is meta. After all, if everyone wore street clothes, it be hard to tell them apart. But it seems that every villain and hero has a touch of narcissism. They want to be recognized and (praised/feared/etc.) or be seen as (inspiring/awesome/terrifying). The killing is usually meta too. You can try and justify it with megalomania for the villains (I must gloat and show off my power) or in some cases a reluctance to cross that specific line (if I start killing maybe the heroes will as well).



Why do so many super heroes make use of fisticuffs even when weapons would be genuinely handy to them?

Others pointed this out as well: many heroes use weapons. Spiderman has his webshooters, Cap his shield, Thor his hammer, Hawkeye his bow, etc. Generally the only ones who don't use weapons are 1) The true tanks like Thing, Hulk (and they regularly use make shift weapons), 2) Those who project energy in some form (Human Torch, Cyclops) so a ranged "weapon" is arguably built in) or 3) Magicians (Dr Strange) who use spells (again, built in "weapons").


And why are there so many incompetent criminals that super heroes can beat up without risk?

Incompetent is a harsh term. Able to stand up to a super? No. Able to rob a store, etc. just like normal? Yes. And many of them do so regularly and get away with it. They may work under the assumption that the heroes are busy with super villains and too busy to bother with small fry. For that matter, if I just robbed a grocery store, I'd rather be caught by Spiderman than the local police. I'm much more likely to be caught alive. So it may actually be safer for your common crook. An increase in the chance of getting caught, but less likely to get shot when I do.


If you wanted to make a plausible super hero setting, how would you get around questions that occur with many super hero stories?

There are all sorts of questions that come up when you start looking at stories more closely. For example, JJJ regularly calls Spiderman a menace. To some extent he's right, but for the wrong reasons.

Jack O Lantern robs a bank after hours. He's leaving the scene when Spiderman shows up. After one of the typical 15 minutes pitched fights, Spiderman catches Lantern. Police officer on the scene waves Spidey over and says he wants to talk.

Officer: "I see you caught him"

Spidey: "Yep. No need to thank me officer. After all, I'm your friendly neighborhoo..."

Officer: "Oh, I wasn't going to thank you. Do you really not realize what you did?"

Spidey: "Uh.. your job? Stopped the bad guy?"

Officer: "And do you know what our job actually is? It's to protect the public interest. Look around. Do you see the damage that was done?"

Spidey: "Yeah, but I stopped him from getting away with ..."

Officer: "You stopped him from getting away with $500k. The damage your fight did looks to be in the $3 million range, not counting the losses the businesses will suffer while they are closed for repairs".

Spidey: "But at least he's caught! So he won't be robbing any more .."

Officer: "Let me stop you right there. Caught? yes. Convicted? No. He apparently knocked out the security system so there's no video. His costume makes it pretty obvious we won't get fingerprints, so unless we get very lucky, the only thing we actually have is him outside with the money and you. You want to testify?"

Spidey: "Well ..."

Officer: "Yeah, that's what I thought. So when his lawyer says that you robbed the bank and stuck the money on him to frame him, how do we prove he's lying? it will only take one person on a jury who doesn't like you IF it even goes to trial to sink this. On the other hand, if you'd called us and then even just followed him, WE could have caught him with the money."

Spidey: "I guess I never thought of it like that".

.... Interrupted by coroner's wagon pulling up

Spidey: "... Why is that here?"

Officer: "You didn't know? One of Jack O Lantern's shots went into the building across the street and hit an old lady. She didn't make it".

Spidey: "But.. .I..."

Officer: "And this isn't the first time this has happened to you is it. Remember when you went after the Sin Eater? And he ended up firing that shotgun at you in that crowd? What happened?"

Spidey: "I... I jumped out of the way..."

Officer: "And.."

Spidey: "...And the people behind me were shot. One died".

Officer: "Kid. I respect what you've been trying to do. But you don't have the training or experience to make the call on when to engage, and because of that two people have been killed because you chose to interfere". Turns an unresisting Spiderman around... "You have the right to remain silent...."

Edited: Fight was just in a crowd. Sin Eater escaped on a bus.

Lord Raziere
2014-08-08, 02:32 PM
In my setting, superheroes have been around for 70 years, and its built to act like it.

Most of Earths military is tied up in maintaining the Space Guard, a defensive array of military and satellites focused on defending Earth from alien invasion, meaning the superheroes focus on the threats on the ground. but it isolates them from the United Planetary Coalition out in space, which is constantly fighting wars across the galaxy itself to keep the galaxy in order.

there are distinct superhero ideologies and factions that are involved in politics- Redeemers Vs. Eliminators, Protectors Vs. Changers.

to keep the setting from getting too advanced, the mad scientists of the setting draw upon this Madness Force that while giving them great ability to invent things very fast, also drives them insane, and are very dangerous because they can build world-conquering rays and other doomsday weapons, so they are put in a Dragon Age Mage-style institution called "Institution For Mad Science" where they are kept under lock in key and only inventing things in controlled circumstances. Problem is though, anyone with a sufficiently high degree of intelligence and interest in invention, anyone can draw upon the Madness Force...

as for all the inventors who don't, well all the corporations of the world are in some way corrupt or evil. many superheroes don't share their inventions out of distrust for them, and because they know that if they do, accidents will inevitably happen or that some villain will find a way to take advantage of it, it happens too often for them to trust corporations.

and finally, corruption in the institutions of the world are rampant from the smallest of the police forces to the highest echelons of government. supervillains also means super-corruption- most police forces, since they are either useless or corrupt, can't respond to crimes, or won't. even first world countries experience second world crime rates, and the criminals don't just go for jewels or money- they go for illegal alien tech, or magic spells, not just supervillains but mafias, gangsters, anyone and anything- any advantage to gain more power.

among this dark world are subcultures like the Survivalists who see the constant near-doomsday scenarios that happen and decide to hole up and try to shelter themselves from the impending threat of apocalypse, we're not talking one or two crazies who build bomb shelters in their backyard, we're talking fortresses and hidden villages of these people finding somewhere remote to keep themselves safe. the Empowered Underground which are neutralist faction of super-powered people who just want to be left alone to live their lives in peace.

and so on. however heroes in this world are still heroes. superheroes in this world still try to hold themselves to high standards and try to figure out what is good and bad despite the darkness around them. the light in darkness in all this is Torchlight, the one unambiguously good faction in the midst of outright villains and morally grey factions, for they are the light in the darkness.

I call the setting Overkill Comics. it makes sense to me, because it shows just how messed up the world would have to be for the superhero genre to work.

Frozen_Feet
2014-08-09, 10:49 AM
There are all sorts of questions that come up when you start looking at stories more closely. For example, JJJ regularly calls Spiderman a menace. To some extent he's right, but for the wrong reasons.

Jack O Lantern robs a bank after hours. He's leaving the scene when Spiderman shows up. After one of the typical 15 minutes pitched fights, Spiderman catches Lantern. Police officer on the scene waves Spidey over and says he wants to talk.

Officer: "I see you caught him"

Spidey: "Yep. No need to thank me officer. After all, I'm your friendly neighborhoo..."

Officer: "Oh, I wasn't going to thank you. Do you really not realize what you did?"

Spidey: "Uh.. your job? Stopped the bad guy?"

Officer: "And do you know what our job actually is? It's to protect the public interest. Look around. Do you see the damage that was done?"

Spidey: "Yeah, but I stopped him from getting away with ..."

Officer: "You stopped him from getting away with $500k. The damage your fight did looks to be in the $3 million range, not counting the losses the businesses will suffer while they are closed for repairs".

Spidey: "But at least he's caught! So he won't be robbing any more .."

Officer: "Let me stop you right there. Caught? yes. Convicted? No. He apparently knocked out the security system so there's no video. His costume makes it pretty obvious we won't get fingerprints, so unless we get very lucky, the only thing we actually have is him outside with the money and you. You want to testify?"

Spidey: "Well ..."

Officer: "Yeah, that's what I thought. So when his lawyer says that you robbed the bank and stuck the money on him to frame him, how do we prove he's lying? it will only take one person on a jury who doesn't like you IF it even goes to trial to sink this. On the other hand, if you'd called us and then even just followed him, WE could have caught him with the money."

Spidey: "I guess I never thought of it like that".

.... Interrupted by coroner's wagon pulling up

Spidey: "... Why is that here?"

Officer: "You didn't know? One of Jack O Lantern's shots went into the building across the street and hit an old lady. She didn't make it".

Spidey: "But.. .I..."

Officer: "And this isn't the first time this has happened to you is it. Remember when you went after the Sin Eater? And he ended up firing that shotgun at you on the bus? What happened?"

Spidey: "I... I jumped out of the way..."

Officer: "And.."

Spidey: "...And the people behind me were shot. One died".

Officer: "Kid. I respect what you've been trying to do. But you don't have the training or experience to make the call on when to engage, and because of that two people have been killed because you chose to interfere". Turns an unresisting Spiderman around... "You have the right to remain silent...."

The funny thing is, I own an issue of Spiderman where almost exactly that discussion is had. Spidey spots Scorcher (or some other fire-themed villain) and decides to Do Good (tm) by capturing him for the police. In the process, the building they're in gets set on fire. Spidey saves the situation by collapsing a huge tank of water in. Lots of property damage, but hey, the crook is captures...!

... except, the police intended for him to get away, so they could track him to his boss man. They had the operation all set up, and Spidey screwed it.

The policeman feels sorry for Spidey, seeing that he's just a kid, and tells the so-called hero to GTFO before he changes his mind and arrests him.

tomandtish
2014-08-09, 11:12 AM
The funny thing is, I own an issue of Spiderman where almost exactly that discussion is had. Spidey spots Scorcher (or some other fire-themed villain) and decides to Do Good (tm) by capturing him for the police. In the process, the building they're in gets set on fire. Spidey saves the situation by collapsing a huge tank of water in. Lots of property damage, but hey, the crook is captures...!

... except, the police intended for him to get away, so they could track him to his boss man. They had the operation all set up, and Spidey screwed it.

The policeman feels sorry for Spidey, seeing that he's just a kid, and tells the so-called hero to GTFO before he changes his mind and arrests him.

Heh. That must have come out after I stopped reading in the early 90s, since I don't remember that at all. Good to see they wrote something like that.

(Or else in one of the titles I wasn't reading. One of the reason I stopped with comics was having to buy 9 titles to keep track of what any given hero was doing...).

Hopeless
2014-08-09, 11:41 AM
And here i was about to ask if you've heard about the Rotted Capes rpg of superheroes meets zombies.
One idea i noticed suggest a campaign where the source of superpowers inevitably means they will become a zombie although doesn't mean they have to die to do so as its the next stage of their evolution its just that anyone who knew the truth was killed when they tried to stop them and noone bothered to wonder why¡
Anyone mentioned Necessary Evil?
Back to Rotted Capes they used bright and gawdy because they were intended to inspire hope.

Mr. Mask
2014-08-09, 11:43 AM
Spiderman is a popular woobie. Deconstruction elements are brought in to make the audience feel bad for the hero--generally ignoring other realities that may have made their actions more positive. For example, one person dying from fighting a shotgun wielding madman attacking a crowd? Great work Spidey!... when the police were no help whatsoever in protecting a large crowd of people (that can and has happened, of course). I'm reminded of some fairly unpleasant massacres by that situation...

tomandtish
2014-08-09, 12:22 PM
Spiderman is a popular woobie. Deconstruction elements are brought in to make the audience feel bad for the hero--generally ignoring other realities that may have made their actions more positive. For example, one person dying from fighting a shotgun wielding madman attacking a crowd? Great work Spidey!... when the police were no help whatsoever in protecting a large crowd of people (that can and has happened, of course). I'm reminded of some fairly unpleasant massacres by that situation...

Except Sin Eater isn't attacking the crowd. he's fleeing another scene. Spidey is the one who decides to try and stop an armed man in the middle of the crowd (and therefore turns it into a fight in a crowd)... with unfortunate results.

It's meant to illustrate a point about many heroes (especially those who aren't officially working with law enforcement). When they decide to intervene in a situation, they better be prepared for the fact that their intervention may have consequences for other people.

Interestingly, I'm not even saying SPidey was necessarily wrong in the Sin Eater situation. Sin eater was fleeing because he'd just killed one person, and if he escapes he'll almost certainly kill again. Even many police officer (I think) would be weighing the odds on whether or not to engage in that situation. But in the eyes of the law Spidey's not trained and a civilian. And if he chooses to engage a fleeing criminal and others get hurt, he better be prepared to answer for it.

Also, edited my earlier post. it's just in a crowd, not on a bus. Sin Eater escapes on a bus.

Mr. Mask
2014-08-09, 12:49 PM
Well, Spiderman isn't green, and he isn't stupid. He has often used spider trackers to follow villains to their lairs, and many times has thought, "I can't fight here, because X will get hurt!" In those stories, he was bright enough to lead the villain away or to engage in an intelligent way.

The example with the fire guy sounds more plausible. The police are trying to track down a dangerous criminal, and spiderman not knowing this sees a chance to take them down. Of course, while the policemen have a point, they were still talking about the mouse tracking the snake down to its lair.

tomandtish
2014-08-09, 01:07 PM
Well, Spiderman isn't green, and he isn't stupid. He has often used spider trackers to follow villains to their lairs, and many times has thought, "I can't fight here, because X will get hurt!" In those stories, he was bright enough to lead the villain away or to engage in an intelligent way.


And there are plenty of stories where he has engaged in public and crowded conditions. The Sin Eater story is one I like because it shows the potential consequences of that behavior. IF you decide to take on a bad guy when others are around, you better be prepared to accept that those others might get hurt.

In a way, it leads to the reason that Civil War was so disappointing. There were some good points to be made for the pro-registration side, but the whole thing was done so poorly that they fell by the wayside.

Mr. Mask
2014-08-09, 01:21 PM
The story has potential for a character it befits. The examples where Spider Man fought villains in crowded areas was generally because of pressing matters, or reasonable cause to feel the people wouldn't get hurt. Of course, I can also think of cases where Spiderman murdered people in cold blood... so consistency isn't really the strength of comic book characters.

3WhiteFox3
2014-08-09, 03:06 PM
Look at the DCAU. Both Justice League and Justice League Unlimited address a lot of your concerns, but keep that essential super heroic feel without completely throwing the classic elements away. They even do a story that examines what would happen if the public were to become afraid of superheroes.

Another good story is the excellent, What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and the American Way. It examines why Superman does what he does, and is a brilliant deconstruction of the 90's antihero.