DM monsters are royally ruining our party, cant figure out why

[Iron Angel]

We have a party of 6 and we are currently fighting some Orcs. They are consistently wrecking us. The DM says the encounter CR is two levels lower than the CR of our party, so we think maybe he is doing the monsters wrong. The monsters are level 6 and our party is level 7.

Essentially we are fighting against regular orc soldiers, which use the profile in the book, and there are 8-10 each fight. The profile says their attack is "Falchion +4" but we aren't sure what that actually means. So he has been giving them a BAB of +6 and +4 for their strength for a total of +10 to hit. Is that correct?

The big problem however is the bigger Orcs, which are Barbarians. They Rage as soon as we get into melee range and then just absolutely shred us. There are about 3 of these each fight. They are getting +6 for strength and +6 BAB, which means if they roll even half decently they hit us and they do 2d6+6 damage to whatever they hit, and with the crit range on Falchions, its often quite a bit more.

Couple this with the 2 sorcerers they have in each fight that buff them up with Mage Armor and then do things like try to shrink people or exhaust them and we struggle every single encounter to just tread water, with at least one person going from full health to knocked out almost every encounter, and sometimes more.

Is everything here right? These things are just obliterating us. Our party is two Fighters, a Ranger, a Sorcerer, a Rogue, and a Paladin.

[Shining Wrath]

If it says "Falchion + 4", that means that BAB + Strength = 4. But that's for a generic orc, not one with class levels.

[Jeraa]

Essentially we are fighting against regular orc soldiers, which use the profile in the book, and there are 8-10 each fight. The profile says their attack is "Falchion +4" but we aren't sure what that actually means. So he has been giving them a BAB of +6 and +4 for their strength for a total of +10 to hit. Is that correct?


No. The numbers in a monsters stat block for their attacks are the total modifiers. That means that when a stat block says "Falchion +4", it means that the creature has a total of +4 on its attack roll, and so rolls 1d20+4 to see if it hits.

[Iron Angel]

Their strength is 18 though because they get an extra point to spend for level 4, right? That would make their strength modifier +4.

[Kazyan]

If there is 1 orc soldier, 3 orc barbarians, and 2 orc sorcerers all at level 6, they are all CR 6 monsters on their own. Together, they are *encounter calculator noises* CR 11.

So, that's why. The encounter level is at least 3 higher than the recommended average for your party, which is 8. If you ran into clones of your party, it would be CR 12, so the enemies are indeed weaker than you by the rules. However, in the DMG, it is noted that encounter whose CR is 3 higher than the suggested average could easily kill a PC. Which is approximately what's happening.

[Iron Angel]

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h170/theIronAngel/thereyouhaveitfolks_zps9ada2fff.jpg

Oh my.

[Twilightwyrm]

Keep in mind the stats in the Monster Manuel are for a single 1st Level Warrior Orc with the given stats. That means +1 BAB, +3 Str (hence Falchion +4). And unless the Orcs have switched off their weapons, the weapon damage (2d4) will be staying the same, even as they go up in level. Keep in mind also that the listed CR is for a one creature of that type vs. a party of four people.
The Orc Barbarians you are fighting should have +6 BAB, +6 from Str (assuming they are raging) hence they should have +12 to hit (assuming no magic or masterwork weapons), dealing 2d4+8 damage (no Power Attack, which no self-respecting Barbarian shouldn't have). And each of these guys would be CR 6 on their own. You might be starting to see a pattern here. With Sorcerers buffing them (note that Mage Armor does not stack with whatever armor they already have), and with lower level Orcs in two, this is signficantly higher than CR 6, as has already been pointed out. Please let your DM know this so he can calculate the challenge of his encounters (and hopefully, give you guy the extra XP you are entitled to:smallwink: You did overcome these extremely challenging encounters after all).

[Iron Angel]

I told him, we're all relatively new to this and hopefully the encounters will be slightly less back-breaking after this. I don't mind a challenge but one of these encounters almost killed the entire party and the DM had to use his DM powers to give the sorcerer a really powerful one-time-use spell to kill half the enemies so we wouldn't all die.

[Anachronity]

Yea, that's way to strong for your party. If you're going to fight twelve of something, you're probably better off with something that's, say, CR 3. I recommend the Monstrous Crab from This official WotC webpage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)! :smallwink:

[nedz]

I routinely run strong/overpowering encounters but even I think that this encounter is a little strong, especially since Orcs with Falchions are offensively geared and they are being given extra bonuses to hit. The extra bonuses to hit probably add 2-3 to the effective CR given the offensive gearing already in place.


Yea, that's way to strong for your party. If you're going to fight twelve of something, you're probably better off with something that's, say, CR 3. I recommend the Monstrous Crab from This official WotC webpage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)! :smallwink:
Now that suggestion is just mean, these are newbies which means that they probably don't know about this massively under CRd monster crab.

[kenjigoku]

Yea, that's way to strong for your party. If you're going to fight twelve of something, you're probably better off with something that's, say, CR 3. I recommend the Monstrous Crab from This official WotC webpage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)! :smallwink:

That is mean for new players.
Do not use the Monstrous Crab, it is much harder than the CR suggests.
It has been known as "That D***ed Crab".


Now that suggestion is just mean, these are newbies which means that they probably don't know about this massively under CRd monster crab.

Ninja edit OP!

[Anachronity]

That is mean for new players.
Do not use the Monstrous Crab, it is much harder than the CR suggests.
It has been known as "That D***ed Crab".

I was hoping that if the wink didn't tip him off, the +10 to attack would.

But yea, what Kenjigoku said. If you read that crab's stat block and don't start either laughing or crying, you need to become more familiar with how D&D's stats and bonuses work.

[Iron Angel]

OK so it seems his intentions were good. He thinks encounters we just bulldoze through are boring and he's sort of right, so he wanted to make the encounters difficult. His reasoning though is that we all survive in the long run so its fine. Honestly I think he enjoys watching us get manhandled a little too much and me, the other fighter, and the rogue are almost always the first casualties in a fight, and if we do make it through its never with more than half our health and often with significantly less. The fighters just get slowly pummeled to death, and the rogue gets one backstab off and then whatever he hit turns around and murders him. The only reason the Paladin doesn't get ruined is because she buffs her AC, runs in, and goes total defense for the entire fight and just never does anything, so I can't imagine she's having a lot of fun either.

I'm hoping the feedback in this thread helps him figure out a good middle ground. We're all new, and I don't want to be That Guy every encounter.

[JusticeZero]

I also always recommend against using orcs. Orcs generate a lot of spike damage, so they can make encounters go very, very badly very very quickly and rather unpredictably. Use less damaging enemies more cleverly so that you have to solve the tactical problem to avoid the death of a thousand paper-cuts.

[Anachronity]

Frankly I think the first step to having more fun is to carefully read through the combat mechanics, or at least have your DM do so. I feel like with no caster in your party (from what it sounds like) the orcs should be Total Party Killing you due to a combination of levels and numbers. The only way I can imagine you guys surviving is if all the orcs are doing is...
a: move, swing, turn
or
b: 5' step, swing twice, turn

The orcs should be trying to grapple the Paladin, whose touch AC I would imagine is pretty low. There's also flanking and charging to consider. Your DM also has a lot of other options available to challenge you than just throwing a whole mess of class-leveled orcs at you. Again, since it sounds like you have no casters it would be pretty easy to throw in a low-level cleric orc and have him pose a challenge. Orcs with more than a level or two of the NPC warrior class should actually be pretty rare in just about any campaign setting; randomly leveling up every humanoid enemy until they match the party level just cheapens levels altogether.

Your rogue should also probably be getting more than 1 sneak attack per fight due to flanking, invisibility shenanigans, or other tricks to apply sneak attack. If the DM is just saying "you get one sneak attack for sneaking up on them, but after that it's straight combat" (which is something I see a lot, and is generally how it worked in 2nd edition where backstab was much more powerful) then your rogue is getting short-changed. Sneak attack applies in a surprising number of situations such as...

-the surprise round against surprised foes (the round where the rogue typically sneaks up and attacks)
-the first round of combat against foes who haven't had a turn yet (this means that the rogue could sneak attack someone he's surprised twice, if he rolls a high enough initiative)
-when flanking an opponent (which shouldn't be hard if you have a party full of martial characters. If you don't use a battle map for combat to keep track of positions I find a lot of DMs are more stingy with the flanking than they should be)
-when an opponent can't see you (due to invisibility, greater invisibility (for EVERY attack!), hiding, the blinded condition (such as from the 2nd level spell glitterdust), etc.)
-when an opponent is paralyzed or sleeping
-when you use the 'feint' action in combat (this one actually isn't very good unless you build your character around it)
-and many more!

Martial characters can also get a fair bit stronger by multiclassing (as can spellcasters, as long as you know what you're doing). Martial characters are made particularly stronger by the Tome of Battle supplement, although some DMs don't like that book.

[Iron Angel]

Frankly I think the first step to having more fun is to carefully read through the combat mechanics, or at least have your DM do so. I feel like with no caster in your party (from what it sounds like) the orcs should be Total Party Killing you due to a combination of levels and numbers. The only way I can imagine you guys surviving is if all the orcs are doing is...
a: move, swing, turn
or
b: 5' step, swing twice, turn
Yep thats pretty much all they do.


The orcs should be trying to grapple the Paladin, whose touch AC I would imagine is pretty low. There's also flanking and charging to consider. Your DM also has a lot of other options available to challenge you than just throwing a whole mess of class-leveled orcs at you. Again, since it sounds like you have no casters it would be pretty easy to throw in a low-level cleric orc and have him pose a challenge. Orcs with more than a level or two of the NPC warrior class should actually be pretty rare in just about any campaign setting; randomly leveling up every humanoid enemy until they match the party level just cheapens levels altogether.
We do have a caster, we have a Sorcerer.


Your rogue should also probably be getting more than 1 sneak attack per fight due to flanking, invisibility shenanigans, or other tricks to apply sneak attack. If the DM is just saying "you get one sneak attack for sneaking up on them, but after that it's straight combat" (which is something I see a lot, and is generally how it worked in 2nd edition where backstab was much more powerful) then your rogue is getting short-changed. Sneak attack applies in a surprising number of situations such as...

-the surprise round against surprised foes (the round where the rogue typically sneaks up and attacks)
-the first round of combat against foes who haven't had a turn yet (this means that the rogue could sneak attack someone he's surprised twice, if he rolls a high enough initiative)
-when flanking an opponent (which shouldn't be hard if you have a party full of martial characters. If you don't use a battle map for combat to keep track of positions I find a lot of DMs are more stingy with the flanking than they should be)
-when an opponent can't see you (due to invisibility, greater invisibility (for EVERY attack!), hiding, the blinded condition (such as from the 2nd level spell glitterdust), etc.)
-when an opponent is paralyzed or sleeping
-when you use the 'feint' action in combat (this one actually isn't very good unless you build your character around it)
-and many more!
Its more that he has trouble actually maneuvering around foes since there are so many. He's going to eat lots of attacks of opportunity unless he takes the long way around and he's really squishy so they don't have much trouble hitting him. Plus, he does the backstab, breaks stealth, and then everything turns around and attacks him and he either dies or narrowly survives.


Martial characters can also get a fair bit stronger by multiclassing (as can spellcasters, as long as you know what you're doing). Martial characters are made particularly stronger by the Tome of Battle supplement, although some DMs don't like that book.

One warrior has one level in Sorcerer and one in Dragon Disciple, and the other warrior has a level in Exotic Weapon Master.

[kenjigoku]

Its more that he has trouble actually maneuvering around foes since there are so many. He's going to eat lots of attacks of opportunity unless he takes the long way around and he's really squishy so they don't have much trouble hitting him. Plus, he does the backstab, breaks stealth, and then everything turns around and attacks him and he either dies or narrowly survives.

He should be able to tumble (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm) somewhat regularly at this point avoiding attacks of opportunity. He can also try to tumble (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm) through if he is feeling courageous.

[Iron Angel]

He does the tumbling thing yeah, he has some epically bad rolls with tumbles though :smallbiggrin: And then he gets lucky rolls on the most ridiculous things, like rolling 20 to hide from guards who are twenty feet away and just barely lost sight of him.

Its more that after that first stealth attack he takes a bunch of damage because everything tries to kill him.

[FidgetySquirrel]

Yea, that's way to strong for your party. If you're going to fight twelve of something, you're probably better off with something that's, say, CR 3. I recommend the Monstrous Crab from This official WotC webpage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)! :smallwink:CR 3!? What the actual frick were they thinking!?

[Madwand99]

I can tell you exactly how to start dominating in these fights. It all has to do with your sorcerer, he's the key. It's actually pretty simple: he has to start spamming battlefield control spells. In particular, Web, Glitterdust, and Grease. The latter two are also very good at setting up enemies for sneak attacks. These spells (and higher-level versions like them) are extremely effective at shutting down encounters with warrior-type enemies like you seem to be facing, so much so that there is the danger of your DM getting quite frustrated with your sorcerer.

[Iron Angel]

I can tell you exactly how to start dominating in these fights. It all has to do with your sorcerer, he's the key. It's actually pretty simple: he has to start spamming battlefield control spells. In particular, Web, Glitterdust, and Grease. The latter two are also very good at setting up enemies for sneak attacks. These spells (and higher-level versions like them) are extremely effective at shutting down encounters with warrior-type enemies like you seem to be facing, so much so that there is the danger of your DM getting quite frustrated with your sorcerer.

The Sorcerer is the DM's character so... :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

The Sorcerer is the DM's character so... :smallbiggrin:

I think you might need to start from the beginning so we get the full story then, since there seem to be a lot of things at play here.

[nedz]

The Sorcerer is the DM's character so... :smallbiggrin:

Then you don't have a Sorcerer. What are his spells BTW ?

[Vogonjeltz]

If these barbarians have 6 levels the rogue can't flank him (needs 4 more levels!!)

I'd suggest using tools entangle items or perhaps grease to force reflex saves on those barbarians.

[Madwand99]

If your only spellcasters are controlled by the DM, you have a serious problem. What it means, effectively, is that you aren't in control of your own fate. You see, it's the spellcasters who have the real power in most D&D groups. They have healing spells, teleport effects, battlefield control, and other spells which give narrative control to the players. Without spells, a D&D group is just a bunch of guys with swords -- which, in a world based entirely around magic, means they're pretty much at the mercy of the whims of the GM.

If you ever want any power in your game, you need at least a couple PC spellcasters. A cleric and wizard are a good start, though it is necessary that they have a good grasp of their class. There are various optimization guides to these classes that can help with that. If I were you, I'd retire my PC and reroll a new PC as one of these classes, and take some control back.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yeah, well, I think the big points have already been mentioned.

But if your party is essentially a bunch of melee-types plus a rogue, against orcs with barbarian levels (a particularly potent combination for enemies that can nova freely), you shouldn't be surprised when you are taking a beating from a 50% larger group, even if they are levels beneath you. They essentially have all the benefits that the characters do, plus they have more spellcasters, and no fear of death (insofar as it's in-character for orc barbarians to fight to the death, odds be damned).

My main suggestion would be ranged weapons and looking for advantageous terrain (like trees...big trees). Also, once the orcs rage, you might try to outrun them until the rage ends, but as they all have fast movement and someone in the main party is likely wearing heavy armour, that seems unlikely to work without significant sacrifice. Still, that might separate the melee orcs from the casters, which would be a worthwhile investment in many cases.

Another thing to consider is not facing every superior force in straight-up melee. Combat is only one option for defeating an encounter; talking, bribing, intimidating, and so forth are all very useful tactics that often get right past issues with CR-imbalance. As a DM, I also enjoy it when my players do this, because non-combat options usually uncover more plot hooks than a pile of corpses.

EDIT: I disagree with the idea that a game needs pc spellcasters. While that is certainly the default recipe, it's not required. As long as the DM and players are cognizant of the ramifications of not having casters, they should be able to compensate just fine. I daresay this is why the DM has a sorcerer npc along (although there really could be any number of other reasons).

[Madwand99]

Not every group needs PC spellcasters. If the DM is experienced and fair, and the encounters are such that the group can handle them, and all the players are enjoying the experience, then everything is fine. But, that's not happening here. The DM is inexperienced and is throwing the PCs against encounters they are having a really tough time handling. The only way to deal with that (besides convincing the DM to go a little easier on the players) is to step up to the plate and take control into your own hands. And the only way to do that is with magic. Magic is what the D&D world runs on, and the more of it a party has, the more control they have over what happens to them. They fight better, can run away better if a fight isn't going well, can recover from fights more easily, the list goes on and on.

[Iron Angel]

OK well I guess I'll start from more towards the beginning then.

Talking our way through isn't an option. We're fighting off a full-scale invasion and trying to get to the big guy at the top of it all.

Essentially, we all got taken to prison due to a complication in a mine we were clearing out where may or may not have accidentally killed some guards and all been charged with murder of city officials. We broke out of the prison, caused a prison riot, and were escaping in the confusion, when all of a sudden an orc shaman shows up and starts wrecking the place with a huge army of orcs. We high-tail it to the next city, but now they are headed that way, and we enlist to fight them. On the way we free the goblins they have been using as slave soldiers and they turn against the orcs and help the royal army and us, and our party penetrates into their backline and takes out a stronghold that is guarding the shaman/general. After that we kill him and hopefully the morale and unity of the orcs dissolves and they can just be mopped up and driven out. A lot of this narrative was player driven but it doesn't leave much room for diplomacy.

[Sir Chuckles]

There's a big 'ol pile of "experienced players" mistakes going on here.
Like, all of them. You're practically going down a list of common mistakes.

Can you get the DM to post here? We can definitely help significantly more, for all of you, if he's here.

[jiriku]

OK well I guess I'll start from more towards the beginning then.

Talking our way through isn't an option. We're fighting off a full-scale invasion and trying to get to the big guy at the top of it all.

Essentially, we all got taken to prison due to a complication in a mine we were clearing out where may or may not have accidentally killed some guards and all been charged with murder of city officials. We broke out of the prison, caused a prison riot, and were escaping in the confusion, when all of a sudden an orc shaman shows up and starts wrecking the place with a huge army of orcs. We high-tail it to the next city, but now they are headed that way, and we enlist to fight them. On the way we free the goblins they have been using as slave soldiers and they turn against the orcs and help the royal army and us, and our party penetrates into their backline and takes out a stronghold that is guarding the shaman/general. After that we kill him and hopefully the morale and unity of the orcs dissolves and they can just be mopped up and driven out. A lot of this narrative was player driven but it doesn't leave much room for diplomacy.

Sounds like a blast! I miss the good old days of orc-stomping every Friday night....

[Iron Angel]

There's a big 'ol pile of "experienced players" mistakes going on here.
Like, all of them. You're practically going down a list of common mistakes.

Can you get the DM to post here? We can definitely help significantly more, for all of you, if he's here.

Oh trust me I made him read this whole thing. He's probably not going to post though. I'd be interested to know what the mistakes are though, we're all interested in improving.