Alternate favored class mechanics (house rule)

[Curmudgeon]

Most people don't like the multiclassing XP penalties, and it's a common house rule to just ignore them. However, this strips all meaning from favored classes. Here's my suggestion for alternate favored class mechanics which accentuate positive qualities rather than negatives.


Favored classes listed for your character receive 1 extra skill point each level (4 at 1st level). Favored Class: Any does not qualify for this benefit.
If your first class level is in a favored class you get either a bonus [Racial] or [General] feat as a one-time benefit. (You need to meet the prerequisites as usual.) Favored Class: Any does not qualify for this bonus feat.
You also receive 50 gp as a one-time bonus if your first class level is in a favored class. Favored Class: Any does qualify for this benefit.
Multiclassing XP penalties don't happen as long as you have at least 1 level in a favored class. Favored Class: Any does qualify for this exception.

(Favored Class: First one chosen works the same as Favored Class: Any.)

Feedback?

[malonkey1]

I usually play Pathfinder. Their rule is no XP penalty, you get 1 bonus skill point or +1 HP for each level in a favored class, and certain races (e.g. Half-Elves) get two favored classes.

[Boci]

Favored classes listed for your character receive 1 extra skill point each level (4 at 1st level). Favored Class: Any does not qualify for this benefit.

Fair enough. Its less harsh and actually accomplished the intended goal.


If your first class level is in a favored class you get either a bonus [Racial] or [General] feat as a one-time benefit. (You need to meet the prerequisites as usual.) Favored Class: Any does not qualify for this bonus feat.

This is just annoying if you had an alternative character path planned out. Missing out on skill points is one thing, but a feat is more valuable.



You also receive 50 gp as a one-time bonus if your first class level is in a favored class.
Favored Class: Any does qualify for this benefit.

How is this explained in game?


Multiclassing XP penalties don't happen as long as you have at least 1 level in a favored class. Favored Class: Any does qualify for this exception.

No. Instead of "Oh you don't like being kick in the shins for unconventional class combination, how about a slap in the face, wouldn't that be better?" just don't punish them. Why would a elf / ranger 2 / fighter 4 take multiclass penalties? And how does throwing in a level of wizard prevent that?

[Andion Isurand]

I think ability score modifiers and racial abilities are enough to help influence what classes, different races might lean towards or avoid.

Plus, you have racial substitution levels you can offer, to give different races some options for the classes they lean towards most often.

======================

For my revised half-elves (http://magerune.blogspot.com/2011/10/race-revisions-and-additions.html), classes that have a familiar, companion or mount feature... and classes with lots of skills and skill points for gaining synergy bonuses... make better options. (( While I kept the favored classes listed for those revised races for now, I don't enforce them. ))

For standard gnomes, any class that uses illusions will get more play.

For dwarves, classes that make good use of heavy armor are likely going to get more play.

For elves, any class that works best at a distance will get more play.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Most people don't like the multiclassing XP penalties, and it's a common house rule to just ignore them. However, this strips all meaning from favored classes.
Step back a moment. What meaning should a favored class have? Why should the rules of the game encourage Elf Wizards and Dwarf Fighters more than the reverse?

[Pex]

Most people don't like the multiclassing XP penalties, and it's a common house rule to just ignore them. However, this strips all meaning from favored classes. Here's my suggestion for alternate favored class mechanics which accentuate positive qualities rather than negatives.

Favored classes listed for your character receive 1 extra skill point each level (4 at 1st level). Favored Class: Any does not qualify for this benefit.

Screws over humans big time who not only cannot benefit but now every race can get their unique racial ability of extra skill points.


If your first class level is in a favored class you get either a bonus [Racial] or [General] feat as a one-time benefit. (You need to meet the prerequisites as usual.) Favored Class: Any does not qualify for this bonus feat.

Screws over humans as well giving away their unique racial ability to others.

[malonkey1]

Screws over humans as well giving away their unique racial ability to others.

Well, yes and no on the latter. You see, while it does offer a bonus feat to all the races, it is somewhat more restricted (for example, it doesn't cover Metamagic feats, or Incarnum or Psionic feats). Admittedly, general feats are the bulk of feats in D&D. I'd make a point of excluding fighter bonus feats.

[Coidzor]

Well, yes and no on the latter. You see, while it does offer a bonus feat to all the races, it is somewhat more restricted (for example, it doesn't cover Metamagic feats, or Incarnum or Psionic feats). Admittedly, general feats are the bulk of feats in D&D. I'd make a point of excluding fighter bonus feats.

Most fighter bonus feats are General feats. I can't really think of any that aren't offhand, actually. :smallconfused:

[malonkey1]

Most fighter bonus feats are General feats. I can't really think of any that aren't offhand, actually. :smallconfused:

Yes, that's why I called them out as something to be excluded. It's much easier with the Pathfinder categorization as "Combat Feats"

[Coidzor]

Yes, that's why I called them out as something to be excluded. It's much easier with the Pathfinder categorization as "Combat Feats"

I suppose, though I don't see the point, since if the human bonus feat didn't steal Fighter 1's thunder, I don't see how extending the franchise would do it. And it's not like the list of fighter bonus feats is all that good, especially at first level.

[Honest Tiefling]

Seems weird to penalize humans like that. I thought many people used favored classes to encourage humans?

[Curmudgeon]

Screws over humans big time who not only cannot benefit but now every race can get their unique racial ability of extra skill points.
Why do you think this "screws over Humans"? It doesn't take away anything from them, and they already get an extra skill point with every level in every class, not just their favored class. This offers the Half-Orc Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berzerker 10 extra skill points for their first 6 levels (Barbarian is the favored class for Half-Orcs) but doesn't continue when they switch to a different class. A Human with the same classes gets extra skill points for all their levels.

[Khatoblepas]

To be honest, it doesn't help much - it still penalizes unconventional class choices by way of omission. And it also doesn't make much sense.

The skill point bonus is alright, I guess, but why would taking a level in a race's favored class make them more like themselves (a bonus racial feat)? Why would being a Dwarf Fighter make you more dwarfy? Why would being an Elf Wizard make you more elfy? Do the Grand High Dwarf Ancestors grant you a stipend for being a Fighter? Would an "Elf Wizard 1/Fighter 4/Barbarian 15" make sense that it removes all multiclassing penalties, simply because the elf read a book before picking up a sword?

I think the best way to do favored classes is to give the race a favorable ACF, like the Gnome Illusionist/Bard gives them Silent Image at 0th level - along with their +1 bonus to save DCs vs. Illusions, they're pretty much set for being an Illusionist, even though martial gnomes can, and will, still exist. There are still other races that can be illusionists, but since gnomes are great at it, they get the minor boosts (The equivilent of Spell Focus (Illusion) and spells one level lower). Likewise, giving a race the opposite for their least suited class (For instance, making Dwarves generally have to take a theoretical Earth Rune Wizard kit, letting them specialise in Earth spells, and ban Air spells, with some flavor about having to use the arcane equivilent of a Divine Focus on all of their spells, a suitable enchanted rune), provides a flavorful but not overly penalising way to provide a reason why being a class is difficult for a race, and their potential workarounds so that they can be that class.

Just giving someone a blanket rule for favored classes, without making the race actually better or worse at that class's role, is a little ham handed and doesn't really serve the fluff you're trying to do - it just makes people who aren't the conventional race/class combo think you're unfairly rewarding stereotypes.

[hymer]

I love and agree with the sentiment.
In regards to fairness, the only thing I have a problem with is how dwarves (e.g.) have a crappy favoured class, and to partake in this little bonanza must take levels in it. I'd give races with just one favoured class more, and I'd probably take away all tier 1 and 2 favoured classes (so elves would get ranger and bard, e.g.). And Favoured: Any would be given specific classes, but more of them than the other races.
In more practical terms, it seems a tad convoluted. If your players are fine with that, no problem. Mine would look at that and ask me to explain it. And some of them would ask me again every time they were to take a new level.

[Amphetryon]

To be honest, it doesn't help much - it still penalizes unconventional class choices by way of omission. And it also doesn't make much sense.

Exactly. The difference between "I give every Character with one of these Race/Class combinations a bonus" and "I give every Character without one of these Race/Class combinations a penalty" is a purely semantic one, based on perspective. You're still penalizing any Player of a mind to play a Dwarf Wizard, you're just doing so passive-aggressively.

[Firechanter]

Why do you think this "screws over Humans"? It doesn't take away anything from them, and they already get an extra skill point with every level in every class, not just their favored class. This offers the Half-Orc Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berzerker 10 extra skill points for their first 6 levels (Barbarian is the favored class for Half-Orcs) but doesn't continue when they switch to a different class. A Human with the same classes gets extra skill points for all their levels.

It is practically an instance of the "absence of carrot becomes stick" sentiment I expressed in the other thread. A Dwarf Fighter will get the bonus feats and skill points of a Human PLUS all his other racial features. Every race gets everything that makes Humans interesting PLUS their other racial benefits, only Humans get nothing in addition. The extra feat is the best thing about being a human (I consider the skill point as gravy), and you're giving the same thing to everyone. So why should anyone play a human anymore? It would be "Back to 2nd Ed for the lot of you!".

[Elkad]

If you are going to give out bonus feats or skillpoints, that the humans don't get, then the humans need something else as well. +2 to any single stat at character creation or something.

[hymer]

Every race gets everything that makes Humans interesting PLUS their other racial benefits, only Humans get nothing in addition. The extra feat is the best thing about being a human (I consider the skill point as gravy), and you're giving the same thing to everyone. So why should anyone play a human anymore? It would be "Back to 2nd Ed for the lot of you!".

This may be perfectly intended, of course (as a player I'd be perfectly fine with not feeling like human is the go-to choice for just about anything). Also, the extra human feat becomes less felt if you allow flaws, for instance, so it depends somewhat on context. Humans still get the advantage of choosing their favoured class, and since this system is intended for use alongside multiclass XP penalty, humans certainly retain a niche.

[Coidzor]

It is practically an instance of the "absence of carrot becomes stick" sentiment I expressed in the other thread. A Dwarf Fighter will get the bonus feats and skill points of a Human PLUS all his other racial features. Every race gets everything that makes Humans interesting PLUS their other racial benefits, only Humans get nothing in addition. The extra feat is the best thing about being a human (I consider the skill point as gravy), and you're giving the same thing to everyone. So why should anyone play a human anymore? It would be "Back to 2nd Ed for the lot of you!".

Or what happened in Pathfinder with Rogues where they actually did get improved in some ways even with all of the changes to sneak attack, but they lost their sacred cow of being the only class that can deal with traps and didn't really get a niche of their own to make up for it. And then they lost the niche of being sneak attack specialists. And the skill system was changed so that it's a bit easier to be skillful.

[Vedhin]

If your first class level is in a favored class you get either a bonus [Racial] or [General] feat as a one-time benefit. (You need to meet the prerequisites as usual.) Favored Class: Any does not qualify for this bonus feat.



I like this, with the change I made. Most [Racial] feats are aligned to some degree with the stereotype associated with the race. They also are less versatile than human feats, so people won't feel that human's thunder is stolen.

Personally though, I feel the best way is Racial Substitution levels.

[Pex]

Why do you think this "screws over Humans"? It doesn't take away anything from them, and they already get an extra skill point with every level in every class, not just their favored class. This offers the Half-Orc Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berzerker 10 extra skill points for their first 6 levels (Barbarian is the favored class for Half-Orcs) but doesn't continue when they switch to a different class. A Human with the same classes gets extra skill points for all their levels.

Because they're no longer unique. I can get extra skills points and an extra feat and all the racial goodies of being a particular non-human race all for the price of playing a particular class I wanted to play anyway.

[Curmudgeon]

Because they're no longer unique. I can get extra skills points and an extra feat and all the racial goodies of being a particular non-human race all for the price of playing a particular class I wanted to play anyway.
So your complaint is that it's good for Humans to get these benefits and let you play a particular class you wanted to play anyway, but it's not good for a race which the rules claim should be well-suited to the class to get similar benefits? :smallconfused:

[Segev]

I ran a gestalt campaign once where one "side" had to be your favored class. (Humans got to pick ONE favored class as theirs.) PrCs that advance them counted.

[Khatoblepas]

So your complaint is that it's good for Humans to get these benefits and let you play a particular class you wanted to play anyway, but it's not good for a race which the rules claim should be well-suited to the class to get similar benefits? :smallconfused:

Because then there'd be no reason to play a human of that class. Those are the human racial features: Skill points and a feat. If you give other races the human bonus feat and the skill points in exchange for playing a particular class, then you'd get their racial features + human racial features, obsoleting the human entirely (because who would choose no racial features over extra racial features?).

I'm not sure what's so hard to get? It's just not good design to obsolete an option.

[Curmudgeon]

Because then there'd be no reason to play a human of that class. Those are the human racial features: Skill points and a feat. If you give other races the human bonus feat and the skill points in exchange for playing a particular class, then you'd get their racial features + human racial features, obsoleting the human entirely (because who would choose no racial features over extra racial features?).

I'm not sure what's so hard to get? It's just not good design to obsolete an option.
How is it obsoleting the Human option to give the favored class a more restrictive feat choice, and bonus skill points that last only as long as they stay completely single-classed? Humans can start in any class and get any feat they qualify for. The other race would need to start in their favored class to get a [Racial] or [General] feat; no [Metamagic] feats for spellcasters or [Ambush] feats for Rogues. Humans get extra skill points regardless of their class choices. Other races would gain extra skill points for levels in their favored class, but not from any other class (including PrCs).

[Pex]

But your proposed house rules are forbidden to humans because they have favored class: any. They get absolutely nothing while everyone else can get same features humans get for the low price of just being a certain class. The unfairness is glaring.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So your complaint is that it's good for Humans to get these benefits and let you play a particular class you wanted to play anyway, but it's not good for a race which the rules claim should be well-suited to the class to get similar benefits? :smallconfused:
No, it's not. Other races already get a bunch of benefits, which are (theoretically) equal to what the human gets. By giving the human bonus to (almost) everyone, you turn it into the new "default" starting power. Remember that line in the Incredibles, "When everyone is super, no-one will be?" It's like that.

[malonkey1]

But your proposed house rules are forbidden to humans because they have favored class: any. They get absolutely nothing while everyone else can get same features humans get for the low price of just being a certain class. The unfairness is glaring.

Giving something to one person is not stealing from another. If I had a full pizza pie, and the guy next to me was given 2 slices of an entirely different pizza, does that diminish the amount of pizza I have?

[Segev]

Giving something to one person is not stealing from another. If I had a full pizza pie, and the guy next to me was given 2 slices of an entirely different pizza, does that diminish the amount of pizza I have?
If you have the choice of being the guy who gets 2 pieces of pizza, or the guy who only gets 1, why would you choose the latter?

[georgie_leech]

It seems like these rule changes would incentivise any single-class build into being races that have it as a Favoured Class, while Humans are for multiclass builds (based on the language "that last only as long as they stay completely single-classed?" which would imply any multiclassing whatsoever permanently loses the bonus skill points on level up) and any classes that don't appear on a Favoured Class lists (can't recall any Truenamers, for instance). Is this intentional?

[malonkey1]

If you have the choice of being the guy who gets 2 pieces of pizza, or the guy who only gets 1, why would you choose the latter?

I'd say I'd rather have 2 pieces, but in my example, it was a choice between a full pizza pie (Humans) and 2 slices (everybody else).

[Segev]

I'd say I'd rather have 2 pieces, but in my example, it was a choice between a full pizza pie (Humans) and 2 slices (everybody else).

Then I think there's a fundamental disconnect between your view and that of those arguing with you.

What I see (and what I think the others disputing your point see, though as I'm no telepath I cannot really say for certain):

Humans get 1 bonus feat, period.
Non-humans can get a bonus feat if they take their favored class.
Humans cannot get an additional bonus feat, because they have "any" as their favored class.
Non-humans get a bunch of other racial features that are, in theory, balanced with the human bonus feat.
Therefore, non-humans who take their favored class get the human pizza slice and their own.
Humans can never get another race's pizza slice, nor an additional copy of their own.


Humans do get the +1 skill point per level, but that's by far the lesser of their two racial perks.

There is no "whole pie" in this: every race gets a pizza slice; if you let the non-humans have the human slice (even with one topping removed), but the humans still only get their own, then the non-humans have two and the humans have 1.

[hymer]

There is no "whole pie" in this: every race gets a pizza slice; if you let the non-humans have the human slice (even with one topping removed), but the humans still only get their own, then the non-humans have two and the humans have 1.

You're leaving out some optional topping, I think. Don't forget that the multiclass penalty on XP is in place for this. So if you want to take, say, a level in cleric for your scout, you either have to find a race with Favoured Class scout or cleric, or be a human. Or you want a level of barbarian so you can get pounce. And so forth.
Humans have a unique versatility in build construction, and that ought to be worth something.

[Segev]

You're leaving out some optional topping, I think. Don't forget that the multiclass penalty on XP is in place for this. So if you want to take, say, a level in cleric for your scout, you either have to find a race with Favoured Class scout or cleric, or be a human. Or you want a level of barbarian so you can get pounce. And so forth.
Humans have a unique versatility in build construction, and that ought to be worth something.

In theory, it is one of the perks they get for being human, and is balanced (along with the feat and skill point) against the racial perks of other races. By giving the other races additional perks, which include stepping on the human's unique Feat perk, and giving the humans nothing, you are, if you accept that humans were balanced against other races before, making humans weaker than the other races.

[hymer]

@ Segev: Indeed, depending on what weight you ascribe to what, you can come up with different answers on how balanced it is. I just wanted to add something most people in this thread seem to not take into account. Whether it tips the whole thing to balance can certainly be debated.
But do you think humans are balanced against the other races in general?

[Curmudgeon]

Non-humans get a bunch of other racial features that are, in theory, balanced with the human bonus feat.
Actually, non-Humans get racial features that are, in theory, balanced with all the Human racial features. That includes their bonus feat, skill points, bonus language selection, and greater freedom to multiclass.

That theory sucks soapy dishwater, though, because if Human racial features were actually in balance with those of other races they would be selected with approximately equal frequency as other race options. Yet Humans are much more popular as a character choice than other races, because Human racial features are superior.

My house rule provides benefits to Humans as well as other races; it just provides more in cases where players are willing to use the race-class combos that WotC says are designed to be natural matches. And it actually provides no benefit to my favorite combo of Silvanesti Elf (favored class: Wizard) Rogue.

If you want to make an argument from the standpoint of balance, don't assume balance in the RAW. Please make your argument based on reality, not theory. :smallsmile:

[nedz]

Or what happened in Pathfinder with Rogues where they actually did get improved in some ways even with all of the changes to sneak attack, but they lost their sacred cow of being the only class that can deal with traps and didn't really get a niche of their own to make up for it. And then they lost the niche of being sneak attack specialists. And the skill system was changed so that it's a bit easier to be skillful.

Well, in 3.5 the following base classes et Trap Finding
Beguiler, Mountebank, Ninja, Rogue, Savant, Scout and Spellthief

As do these PrCs
Chameleon, Combat Trapsmith, Hoardstealer, Nightsong Infiltrator, Silver Key, Stonedeath Assassin and Temple Raider of Olidammara

But your general point stands. It's quite reminiscent of the changes made to Fighter between AD&D and 3.5, and we know how that turned out.