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View Full Version : Monkey Grip: What is it?



Ping_T._Squirrel
2007-02-24, 02:28 AM
I have heard many arguements why this is feat is useless yet a fan favorite all the same, but I do not know what it actually does. Can someone enlighten me or tell me where I may be enlightened? I am now curious.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-02-24, 02:30 AM
This is Monkey Grip. (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Monkey_Grip,CW)

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-24, 02:30 AM
It is the worst feat in D&D.

It lets you use weapons made for creatures one size category larger than you at a -2 rather than a -4 penalty.

starwoof
2007-02-24, 02:31 AM
Monkey grip is a feat that lets you use a weapon one size larger then you can normally use at a small penalty to accuracy. There are a lot of misconceptions about how it works. Example: you can wield something like an ogre longsword one handed or an ogre greastsword 2 handed (if you are medium).

Curses, simu'ed.

Krellen
2007-02-24, 02:34 AM
It's actually naturally a -2 anyway. Monkey Grip allows you to use them as light, one-handed or two-handed, though, rather than as one-handed, two-handed or not-at-all.

Basically, it's a feat that replicates Cloud, and other anime characters with grossly oversized weapons.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-24, 02:37 AM
Basically, it's Satan.

Fixed that for you.

Zincorium
2007-02-24, 02:39 AM
It is the worst feat in D&D.

It lets you use weapons made for creatures one size category larger than you at a -2 rather than a -4 penalty.

Um, wow. I did not expect bears with lasers to be even partially wrong on this one.

It lets you use weapons of a particular category (light, 1 handed, 2 handed) of the next size category larger as they were intended, i.e. a light weapon is still a light weapon and so on. You retain the normal penalty for using a wrongly sized weapon (-2 to hit) but normally you would also have to use increased effort, a light weapon would become one handed, a one handed weapon would need two, and a two handed weapon would be unusable.

As for why it's bad: you have to get weapons specifically designed as large (you cannot use a greatsword one handed, it specifically has to be a size large longsword, for example). You cannot 'turn it off' to remove the penalty when fighting a difficult to hit foe, except by using an entirely different weapon. It's inferior mechanically to power attack, which is a much more common feat, and unlike power attack there's nothing you can do to improve it's effectiveness until epic levels. You cannot use it on ranged weapons, double weapons, or when using it in your off hand, which might have added a teensy bit of usefulness to it.

Lastly, everyone will assume you're either a rabid anime fan or overcompensating.

Frankly, those are enough reasons to make it something I won't ever use, but you're free to make your own choice. Just don't be surprised when Morbo shows up any time you make an error.

TheOOB
2007-02-24, 02:43 AM
Basically it allows you to trade a 10% reduction to accuracy for one or two damage...ohh yah, it costs a feat too.

If you must pick a crappy feat, pick toughness or weapon spec, at least those feats don't make you worse.

Demented
2007-02-24, 03:11 AM
Not necessarily a 10% reduction to accuracy, but a -10% penalty to accuracy. Subtle difference, but if you need to roll a 16 to hit, a -2 is a 40% reduction in accuracy.

/nitpick

How's it say you can't use a larger ranged weapon?

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-24, 03:15 AM
"You can use melee weapons...."

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2007-02-24, 03:18 AM
Monkey Grip is about the same thing as the Half-Elf. It's a flavor feat. For a sacrifice of accuracy you get a bit mroe damage. Oh, and in in-depth campaigns, you look a little cooler. Really it's not worth it unless you're at a low level campaign in which you have the ability to compensate for the -2.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-24, 03:30 AM
...no, you don't look any cooler.

The_Snark
2007-02-24, 03:45 AM
Cool is subjective, though really, I'm with you on this one. Oversized weapons bug me. No weapon should be taller than its owner, with the exception of a spear-like weapon.

Also, the half-elf has a secure spot in Diplomacy-abusing builds. Monkey Grip does not.

Morty
2007-02-24, 04:50 AM
Hm. Is there a possibility to take Monkey Girp twice to wield even larger weapons? Now that would look cool:smalltongue: .

Dhavaer
2007-02-24, 04:52 AM
Hm. Is there a possibility to take Monkey Girp twice to wield even larger weapons? Now that would look cool:smalltongue: .

No. It can't be taken twice.

YPU
2007-02-24, 06:59 AM
Hm. Is there a possibility to take Monkey Girp twice to wield even larger weapons? Now that would look cool:smalltongue: .
But there is a +1LA race in races of stone, which I will not name here.

Zincorium
2007-02-24, 07:19 AM
But there is a +1LA race in races of stone, which I will not name here.

Which is all for the good, since if you look at them at all, you should probably figure out the crux of the matter: They don't stack, they overlap.

Powerful build: You get to wield weapons a size larger than your actual size, as they were intended, without penalty. You can use this with any weapon. Oh, and you get other benefits.

Monkey grip: You get to wield weapons a size larger than your actual size, as they were intended, with a -2 penalty. Aaand it doesn't work with several kinds of weapons, like I mentioned earlier. And you don't get any other benefits. And you just spent a feat to make your character mechanically poorer than before.

The fact is, you are still medium size, so no matter how many effects you have that let you wield a weapon one size larger than your actual size, you're just going to be wielding large weapons. 'Cause they're one size larger than your actual size, in case the repetition wasn't repetitious enough :smallwink:.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-02-24, 07:26 AM
How differant is Sword and Fist Monkey Grip to Complete Warrior Monkey Grip? Sword and Fist Monkey Grip is pretty much neccesary to wield a decent spear in one hand (which has been a common use of spears).

YPU
2007-02-24, 08:26 AM
Which is all for the good, since if you look at them at all, you should probably figure out the crux of the matter: They don't stack, they overlap.

Powerful build: You get to wield weapons a size larger than your actual size, as they were intended, without penalty. You can use this with any weapon. Oh, and you get other benefits.

Monkey grip: You get to wield weapons a size larger than your actual size, as they were intended, with a -2 penalty. Aaand it doesn't work with several kinds of weapons, like I mentioned earlier. And you don't get any other benefits. And you just spent a feat to make your character mechanically poorer than before.

The fact is, you are still medium size, so no matter how many effects you have that let you wield a weapon one size larger than your actual size, you're just going to be wielding large weapons. 'Cause they're one size larger than your actual size, in case the repetition wasn't repetitious enough :smallwink:.
I am not sure, and to lazy to look it up. But I think that powerful build says you count as large for any bonuses, feats or classes. Thus, you could say that you could take the large version of the game.

Zincorium
2007-02-24, 08:33 AM
How differant is Sword and Fist Monkey Grip to Complete Warrior Monkey Grip? Sword and Fist Monkey Grip is pretty much neccesary to wield a decent spear in one hand (which has been a common use of spears).

Well, the whole 3.0 vs 3.5 thing gets you once again. I don't have Sword and Fist, or access to it anymore, but in Complete Warrior, which is the only recognized source for ruling purposes, it only lets you use weapons of a larger size category as intended, which means that you cannot use medium, two handed weapons in one hand, only large, one handed weapons in one hand, the reason for this is that size transperency has been removed from the game, the rules for wrongly sized weapons are on page 113 of your 3.5 rules compliant PHB. If you and your group are still playing 3.0 (and I can't really blame you), then none of this matters, but at the same time it's real hard to contribute meaningfully to the discussion if that's the case.


I am not sure, and to lazy to look it up. But I think that powerful build says you count as large for any bonuses, feats or classes. Thus, you could say that you could take the large version of the game.

Too lazy to read or remember the rules correctly, but not too lazy to press the enter key, huh? Fallen into that trap myself a few times.

In any case, those are pretty much the main thing that powerful build does not do. The specific things that you're treated as large for are spelled out very clearly, and acting as a prerequisite is definitely not on the list.

And even if it did work that way, it wouldn't matter. Know why? Because monkey grip doesn't have 'large size' as a prerequisite. It has a constant effect based on your size. Goliaths are medium size, ergo they can use large weapons by means of monkey grip. It's an utter and complete waste of a feat, because they can already use large weapons without the retarded -2 monkey grip penalty.

JackMage666
2007-02-24, 09:41 AM
I dunno, I always kinda liked Bastard Sword Weilding Half-Ogres and Giants with this. For a Large Bastard Sword increasing to Huge, you get an extra d8 damage, so I don't think it's too bad. For a Medium Longsword increasing to Large, you could do better. For a Medium Greatsword increasing to Large, you get an extra d6 damage, which is alright, I guess.

Hmm, this could be fun with the Greataxe or Scythe, though, becuase the exta d6/d4 damage would still be helpful for the high crit.

I think there are better feats, but I hate to complete negate the usefulness of this one.

Counterpower
2007-02-24, 10:05 AM
As for why it's bad: you have to get weapons specifically designed as large (you cannot use a greatsword one handed, it specifically has to be a size large longsword, for example). You cannot 'turn it off' to remove the penalty when fighting a difficult to hit foe, except by using an entirely different weapon. It's inferior mechanically to power attack, which is a much more common feat, and unlike power attack there's nothing you can do to improve it's effectiveness until epic levels. You cannot use it on ranged weapons, double weapons, or when using it in your off hand, which might have added a teensy bit of usefulness to it.

Lastly, everyone will assume you're either a rabid anime fan or overcompensating.

Frankly, those are enough reasons to make it something I won't ever use, but you're free to make your own choice. Just don't be surprised when Morbo shows up any time you make an error.

Unless you use the rules I saw somewhere about weapons being "sizeable" like that. That a Large longsword was basically the same as a Medium greatsword and so on. Not saying that those rules are a good idea, just presenting them. But how is it "inferior mechanically" to Power Attack? Using a Large greatsword instead of a Medium greatsword is a -2 to hit, +d6 to damage. +d6 is, on average, 3.5 points of damage. Sure, Power Attack can be adjusted, but it's strictly a 1-for-1 adjustment. With the feat, it's possible to increase damage more than that. Like the Greataxe. -2 to hit, complete conversion in dice............ an increase in average damage of +4, from 6.5 on a d12 to 10.5 with 3d6.

I wouldn't call it totally useless. Especially if you want to be the fighter running around with a sword bigger than your halfling friend. (Exaggeration, not supposed to be actually achievable.) If that's the character you want to play, then what's the problem with the -2 again? Harder to hit enemies? Efficiency in combat isn't the most important thing to D&D. I like trying to be as efficient as my character would be in battle. Then again, that's just my position as a roleplayer to the end.

Starbuck_II
2007-02-24, 10:09 AM
Unless you use the rules I saw somewhere about weapons being "sizeable" like that. That a Large longsword was basically the same as a Medium greatsword and so on. Not saying that those rules are a good idea, just presenting them. But how is it "inferior mechanically" to Power Attack? Using a Large greatsword instead of a Medium greatsword is a -2 to hit, +d6 to damage. +d6 is, on average, 3.5 points of damage. Sure, Power Attack can be adjusted, but it's strictly a 1-for-1 adjustment. With the feat, it's possible to increase damage more than that. Like the Greataxe. -2 to hit, complete conversion in dice............ an increase in average damage of +4, from 6.5 on a d12 to 10.5 with 3d6.

I wouldn't call it totally useless. Especially if you want to be the fighter running around with a sword bigger than your halfling friend. (Exaggeration, not supposed to be actually achievable.) If that's the character you want to play, then what's the problem with the -2 again? Harder to hit enemies? Efficiency in combat isn't the most important thing to D&D. I like trying to be as efficient as my character would be in battle. Then again, that's just my position as a roleplayer to the end.
Power Attack is 1 for 2 for two handed. 1 for 1 is for one handed.

Seriously, who does that one handed?

kamikasei
2007-02-24, 10:12 AM
But how is it "inferior mechanically" to Power Attack? Using a Large greatsword instead of a Medium greatsword is a -2 to hit, +d6 to damage. +d6 is, on average, 3.5 points of damage. Sure, Power Attack can be adjusted, but it's strictly a 1-for-1 adjustment.

It's a 1-for-2 adjustment (or 2-for-1? Ah, you know what I mean) if you're wielding the weapon 2-handed. So, Power Attacking with the Medium greatsword nets you a guaranteed 4 damage for a -2. More to the point, it can be increased against low-AC enemies or turned off altogether against high-AC foes.

I also get the feeling people like Bears specifically have a problem with people roleplaying the kind of characters who need Monkey Grip for "flavour"...

Ping_T._Squirrel
2007-02-24, 10:14 AM
Hmm... If Monkey Grip was a pre-req for something else it might be useful. Otherwise, no.

Fawsto
2007-02-24, 10:19 AM
The problem is the fact taht you can't use more common weapons with it; it's how bears said, must be a Ogre's Longsword, not a Greatsword. If the feat reestructures that, allowing to use a Greatsword as a Longsword, the feat would improve a little.

This IS a flavor feat. Some people think they will look cooler, some think they look silly. In my conception I think it has its goods and bads.

I am personaly a fan of the feat cause a find it cool. Period

Thomas
2007-02-24, 10:21 AM
But there is a +1LA race in races of stone, which I will not name here.

There's also half-giant in the XPH.

Counterpower
2007-02-24, 10:32 AM
Ah, that's where I mixed that up......... next time I'll actually read the feats in question. Seriously, somehow I managed to miss that detail in Power Attack.

I still think that if that's the character you want to play, then go enjoy, regardless of what's more effective.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-02-24, 10:38 AM
In most situations with this "feat", you get a possible 5% increase in damage? ehh. Monkey Grip has flavor. Too bad the flavor is arse.

Person_Man
2007-02-24, 11:14 AM
At this point, I think there should be a Sticky thread called "Monkey Grip Is Garbage, Don't Use It Or Post About It."

As others have noted:

Mathematically, its just a really dumb idea to waste a feat on something that lowers your expected damage with each attack. Expected damage is equal to your probability of hitting times your average damage. So Monkey Grip slightly increases your average damage, but the decrease in your probability of hitting offsets that increase, with the net effect of lowering your expected damage.

Nothing in D&D looks cooler because you take a certain feat or spell. There are no graphics in D&D. Things look however you and your DM agree they should look. So you can carry a sword that you describe to be twice as long as your body, but just use the mechanic for a normal greatsword. You can cast a Fireball that explodes in purple lightning, but it still deals fire damage. It's just a matter of you being creative, rather then relying on the sometimes excellent but sometimes cruddy fluff descriptions provided by WotC.

Rigeld2
2007-02-24, 11:14 AM
And, in this case, its perfectly reasonable to say "OMG my sword is 10 feet long!!!eleventyone" and still have it do 2d6 plus power attack.

Roleplay over mechanics.

Tengu
2007-02-24, 11:17 AM
Monkey Grip might be worthwhile if your size is much above average, when it'd give you +2d6 damage for -2 to hit (though you'd probably be better off being a half-giant or a gol... ugh, I cannot say it, I wholeheartedly hate gol... ugh...). So it's probably of any use only for psionic warriors, which you should be if you want Monkey Grip anyway (unless you have ToB), as they are the class that represents anime-style character best (well, maybe ToB classes are better at this).
The coolest anime-style characters are not wielding huge swords anyway.

Hmm, on a side note, FFXIII soooo needs a spiked chain-wielding main character, who will create a generation of fanboys of his own.

Krellen
2007-02-24, 11:17 AM
The problem is the fact taht you can't use more common weapons with it; it's how bears said, must be a Ogre's Longsword, not a Greatsword. If the feat reestructures that, allowing to use a Greatsword as a Longsword, the feat would improve a little.
I still refuse to allow D&D to tell me a greatsword is functionally different from a Large longsword. Statistically, they're exactly the same. The rules saying otherwise are just plain wrong.

Thank heaven for Rule 0!

Tengu
2007-02-24, 11:44 AM
A greatsword is differently balanced than a longsword, I believe. They would also have different handles as one is designed to be used two-handed only, and the other one both one- and two-handed.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-24, 11:56 AM
I still refuse to allow D&D to tell me a greatsword is functionally different from a Large longsword. Statistically, they're exactly the same. The rules saying otherwise are just plain wrong.
Statistically, they're not the same. They cost different amounts of money and have different weights. They just happen to do the same amount of damage.

Krellen
2007-02-24, 12:03 PM
Statistically, they're not the same. They cost different amounts of money and have different weights. They just happen to do the same amount of damage.
Only because they overly complicated the issue. Small-sized weapons don't cost less. I stand by rule 0.

brian c
2007-02-24, 12:05 PM
Too lazy to read or remember the rules correctly, but not too lazy to press the enter key, huh? Fallen into that trap myself a few times.

In any case, those are pretty much the main thing that powerful build does not do. The specific things that you're treated as large for are spelled out very clearly, and acting as a prerequisite is definitely not on the list.

And even if it did work that way, it wouldn't matter. Know why? Because monkey grip doesn't have 'large size' as a prerequisite. It has a constant effect based on your size. Goliaths are medium size, ergo they can use large weapons by means of monkey grip. It's an utter and complete waste of a feat, because they can already use large weapons without the retarded -2 monkey grip penalty.

Powerful Build says, among other things, that

A Goliath can use weapons designed for a creature one sie category larger without penalty
The thing to note here is that Monkey Grip says you can use weapons one size category larger than you not one size category larger than a weapon you can normally use. I don't see anything that would specifically let a Goliath's size count as large for Monkey Grip, so I don't think it does (although a lenient DM might give it to you)

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-24, 12:09 PM
Only because they overly complicated the issue. Small-sized weapons don't cost less. I stand by rule 0.

"Overly complicated"? A longsword made for a ten-foot creature *would* look different from a six-foot man's greatsword. You can rule-0 it all you like, of course, but it's a pretty silly use of rule 0. There's about a bajillion things that need it more.

Krellen
2007-02-24, 12:11 PM
"Overly complicated"? A longsword made for a ten-foot creature *would* look different from a six-foot man's greatsword. You can rule-0 it all you like, of course, but it's a pretty silly use of rule 0. There's about a bajillion things that need it more.
I rule 0 a lot of things. Irresistible Dance, for one. I rule 0'd it right out. No single spell should doom a dragon, or there'd be no more dragons.

TheOOB
2007-02-24, 12:15 PM
I don't really see how monkey grip would make you look any cooler, it's it entirely possibly to justify a medium greatsword as being around 6 feet in length so the cloud fanboys can have their fun. If you must wield a large one-handed sword take exotic weapon proficiency <bastard sword>, it's still not a good feat(woo, +1 damage an attack), but a bastard sword can be fairly large (probally even between 4 and 5 feet), and the feat doesn't make you worse.

Saying monkey grip is a flavor feat is kinda silly. When I'm playing a fighter I'm playing an expert warrior who is a master of armed combat. The best way to represent that flavor is by being mechanically powerful.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-24, 12:46 PM
Also, the half-elf has a secure spot in Diplomacy-abusing builds.
I wasn't aware a little extra +2 was such a linchpin in overextending a skill that's already too easily maxed out.

I love half-elves, but I don't need them for my Diplomacy as long as I have Bluff, Sense Motive, and Knowledge (nobility and royalty). The +2 is a nice addition, but it's hardly a requirement.


Well, the whole 3.0 vs 3.5 thing gets you once again. I don't have Sword and Fist, or access to it anymore, but in Complete Warrior, which is the only recognized source for ruling purposes...
May I direct your attention to the "Why a Revision" sidebar on pg. 4 of the Player's Handbook v.3.5, pg. 4 of the Dungeon Master's Guide v.3.5, and pg. 6 of the Monster Manual v.3.5. Each says, "This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments." That's saying Sword and Fist is still recognized as long as you make any adjustments to reflect changes in the rules.

Of course, the "most recent version" rule still applies. The version of Monkey Grip from Complete Warrior takes precedence over the version from Sword and Fist. But there's nothing preventing you from taking unrevised content, such as the Devoted Defender prestige class (I don't think that's been updated, but I could be wrong...) and using it in your 3.5 campaign. You just have to keep an eye out for items that need obvious changes.


And, in this case, its perfectly reasonable to say "OMG my sword is 10 feet long!!!eleventyone" and still have it do 2d6 plus power attack.

Roleplay over mechanics.
You do realize roleplay and mechanics are interdependent?

I'm not gonna let anyone say, "I'm a Medium creature and I'm 20 ft. tall, and I can do this because I'm not gonna try to get reach or anything else! Ha-ha!" To say that stretches verisimilitude would be an understatement among understatements.

Matthew
2007-02-24, 01:46 PM
I still refuse to allow D&D to tell me a greatsword is functionally different from a Large longsword. Statistically, they're exactly the same. The rules saying otherwise are just plain wrong.

Thank heaven for Rule 0!

Hmmmn. I know what you're saying and I don't think making a Large Long Sword equivalent to a Medium Great Sword is a big deal, since both are generalisations of whole categories of weapons anyway. However, making a Huge Dagger equivalent to a Medium Long Sword (or a Gargantuan Dagger equivalent to a Medium Great Sword), I probably would take issue with.
Saying that, the -2 AB penalty for using a Large Long Sword like a Medium Great Sword does seem reasonably sensible. I probably would impose it on Characters unfamiliar with the type of combat if there wasn't already a hard rule covering the situation.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-02-24, 02:33 PM
"blah blah giant weapon makes you looks stupid blah"

You're entitled to your opinion as long as you remember that it is merely that, your opinion.

Now if you'll excuse me I need to go take my Collapsible Monkey Gripped Balanced Platinum Goliath Greathammer of the Titans and smash down a few castle walls.

fallensavior
2007-02-24, 02:46 PM
I only use monkey grip with a full blade and enlarge person. That's 2d8 + (1d8& -2 to hit) + (1d8 + 2 str + reach + -1 AC). Thus, I gain 10-11 damage and reach for -2 to hit and -1 AC and one feat.

By the by, invoking the massive damage rule at 2nd level is fun.

(I suppose it would actually be two feats per exotic weapon)
(Still awesome to do 50+ damage w/ 2nd level character)
(Oh yeah, balanced would put weapon damage up to 6d8)

Rigeld2
2007-02-24, 04:06 PM
You do realize roleplay and mechanics are interdependent?

I'm not gonna let anyone say, "I'm a Medium creature and I'm 20 ft. tall, and I can do this because I'm not gonna try to get reach or anything else! Ha-ha!" To say that stretches verisimilitude would be an understatement among understatements.

To an extent. Yes, saying that youre 20ft tall and a Medium creature is stretching things. Saying youre wielding a Medium 10ft Greatsword isnt really that wierd imo.

Zincorium
2007-02-24, 04:42 PM
Powerful Build says, among other things, that

The thing to note here is that Monkey Grip says you can use weapons one size category larger than you not one size category larger than a weapon you can normally use. I don't see anything that would specifically let a Goliath's size count as large for Monkey Grip, so I don't think it does (although a lenient DM might give it to you)

Um. I agree. Which you should know, because the post you quoted says pretty much exactly what you just did. If you were to quote the other guy, who didn't do any reading and didn't know it wouldn't work, then your post would make some sort fo sense.

I made the addition of a hypothetical situation, because the person I quoted talked about using Powerful build to 'qualify' for some sort of large size monkey grip, which does not exist, and thus without houseruling it there is no way the combination works.

TheOOB
2007-02-24, 04:44 PM
10ft for a medium greatsword is pushing it, once your sword is almost twice your height it becomes a bit too unwieldy to use properly.

Zincorium
2007-02-24, 04:48 PM
May I direct your attention to the "Why a Revision" sidebar on pg. 4 of the Player's Handbook v.3.5, pg. 4 of the Dungeon Master's Guide v.3.5, and pg. 6 of the Monster Manual v.3.5. Each says, "This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments." That's saying Sword and Fist is still recognized as long as you make any adjustments to reflect changes in the rules.

Of course, the "most recent version" rule still applies. The version of Monkey Grip from Complete Warrior takes precedence over the version from Sword and Fist. But there's nothing preventing you from taking unrevised content, such as the Devoted Defender prestige class (I don't think that's been updated, but I could be wrong...) and using it in your 3.5 campaign. You just have to keep an eye out for items that need obvious changes.

Right. Bolded text is what I said, which apparently was ignored. Monkey Grip isn't unrevised content. So, if we're having a rules discussion about 3.5, we need to use the rules that have been updated to 3.5, not the 3.0 versions. The version transperency is meaningless. Like I said, if we were talking 3.0 there would be a reason to include the rules for that version of the feat from Sword and Fist, but we aren't. Everything else in your paragraph doesn't apply to monkey grip (the entire point of the discussion), so I'm kind of at a loss as to why it's even there.

...

On a side note, why is it I keep having people say what I said in a slightly different way and they seem to think they're correcting me?

Quietus
2007-02-24, 04:51 PM
I only use monkey grip with a full blade and enlarge person. That's 2d8 + (1d8& -2 to hit) + (1d8 + 2 str + reach + -1 AC). Thus, I gain 10-11 damage and reach for -2 to hit and -1 AC and one feat.

By the by, invoking the massive damage rule at 2nd level is fun.

(I suppose it would actually be two feats per exotic weapon)
(Still awesome to do 50+ damage w/ 2nd level character)
(Oh yeah, balanced would put weapon damage up to 6d8)

I've seen a player run Massive Damage at level 1. Large greatsword (taking the full penalty to attack rolls), Enlarged, he was running ... 19 strength? With Magic Weapon, so 4d6+7 damage. He had another spell in there, can't remember which it was. For some idiot reason I sent 16 orcs, one of which was a level 2 cleric, at him. Through sheer force of luck, his party of level 1 cleric, level 1 wizard, and level 1 commoner with a longbow managed to come through - and when his cleric swung at the orc cleric, he critted for 52 damage, reducing that cleric's hit points to so much red mist. Not bad, for level 1 with a weapon that only has a x2 mod.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-24, 05:13 PM
Everything else in your paragraph doesn't apply to monkey grip (the entire point of the discussion), so I'm kind of at a loss as to why it's even there.
It's a matter of context and clarification.

I have run across a significant number of statements claiming everything from 3.0 is somehow magically invalid and incompatible with 3.5 games in the past. Your statement was phrased very similarly to such a statement. Although it was keyed in part to Monkey Grip, it focused the rationale as being a 3.0 versus 3.5 issue rather than simply a "last published takes precedence" issue. I wasn't even sure you were aware of... you called it "version transparency" (I rather like the sound of that). I simply wished to clarify this point.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-02-24, 05:55 PM
I rule 0 a lot of things. Irresistible Dance, for one. I rule 0'd it right out. No single spell should doom a dragon, or there'd be no more dragons.

That's why dragons have a high Will save bonus and Wis score. True that it COULD doom a dragon (it saved my Fey's life a few times) but it's as unlikely as rolling natural 1's.

Quietus
2007-02-24, 06:02 PM
I don't think Irresistable dance has a will save. Just SR.

Arceliar
2007-02-24, 06:09 PM
That is correct, no will save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibleDance.htm).

Back on topic, I for one thing Monkey Grip could be worth it if it were a prerequisite to an Improved Monkey Grip feat that removes the penalty for size category differences. But as no such feat officially exists, it's essentially useless mechanically as it stands without employing size enlargement cheese.

The Great Skenardo
2007-02-24, 06:10 PM
I don't really see how monkey grip would make you look any cooler, it's it entirely possibly to justify a medium greatsword as being around 6 feet in length so the cloud fanboys can have their fun. If you must wield a large one-handed sword take exotic weapon proficiency <bastard sword>, it's still not a good feat(woo, +1 damage an attack), but a bastard sword can be fairly large (probally even between 4 and 5 feet), and the feat doesn't make you worse.

Saying monkey grip is a flavor feat is kinda silly. When I'm playing a fighter I'm playing an expert warrior who is a master of armed combat. The best way to represent that flavor is by being mechanically powerful.

Not necessarily so. In a slightly-less serious RP setting, this feat can be pretty good flavor. I'll admit to DMing a group that were trying their darndest to be heroes with a capital H, but I like to remind my groups that they are by no means the most powerful people in any game setting by level 5. With a bit of tongue-in-cheek, I created a powerful group of heroes known throughout the land, led by a brooding and spiky-haired swordsman named Cirrus who focused on using absolutely ridiculously-sized weapons.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-02-24, 06:23 PM
I only wanted to know what the 3.0 version was, I wasn't suggesting you could pick and choose in the same game.

Technically I could (if I bought Sword and Fist) make a Thri-Keen (two pairs of hands for each Daisho) Complete Warrior Samurai 4/Oriental Adventures Samurai 5/Sword and Fist Master Samurai 6/Warcraft Gladiator 3/Complete Warrior Exotic Weapon Master 1 Gestault Psychic Warrior 20 with Complete Warrior Monkey Grip and Power Attack. But alas three abilities that specifically say 2x strength mod don't make 4x strength mod and one of those Samurai classes provides no benifit to two-handed weapons.

Rule 0 exists so you can have fun. The 3 in 3.5 exists so that you can use 3.0 stuff.

The_Snark
2007-02-24, 08:38 PM
I wasn't aware a little extra +2 was such a linchpin in overextending a skill that's already too easily maxed out.

No, but half-elves do make the best beginning in a build that focuses exclusively on Diplomacy, and even in those that don't; the Half-elf paragon ups that bonus, and there are a pair of half-elf only feats from Races of Destiny that are very, very useful for diplomacy-using characters, one that increases synergy bonuses and another that lets you reroll Diplomacy checks.

Also, 10 feet for a greatsword? That's maybe twice as long as it should be. A sword that's as tall as you are is already more cumbersome than it needs to be; any longer and you sacrifice realism. Not that you have to be realistic, but once you have someone wielding a 10-ft sword, saying that a 20-ft sword is too unrealistic doesn't really make sense.

Complete Warrior does have a sort of Improved Monkey Grip that lets you wield a larger weapon without penalty, but it's an epic feat.

fallensavior
2007-02-24, 10:21 PM
Back on topic, I for one thing Monkey Grip could be worth it if it were a prerequisite to an Improved Monkey Grip feat that removes the penalty for size category differences. But as no such feat officially exists, it's essentially useless mechanically as it stands without employing size enlargement cheese.

Not true. There is an epic feat in one of the splat books called Wield Oversize Weapon which monkey grip is a prereq for. Naturally it does the same thing but eliminates the penalty. Not that great since its epic only, but it does exist. Check CW, and keep in mind its in a sep. section.

TheOOB
2007-02-24, 10:38 PM
But then your spending a feat and an epic feat for a small increase in damage and dependance on weapons in hard to find sizes.

Turcano
2007-02-24, 11:13 PM
But then your spending a feat and an epic feat for a small increase in damage and dependance on weapons in hard to find sizes.

Exactly. It would be pretty decent if that only cost you a single feat, but a two-feat investment just isn't worth it.

Although I wonder how many people really take it for mechanical reasons; it seems to me that a lot of people take it just to look like a tool. :smalltongue:

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-02-24, 11:17 PM
I've houseruled monkey grip does away with the penalty altogether and works with offhand weapons. So with a few select feats a fighter can wield the equivalent of 2 greatswords.

Turcano
2007-02-24, 11:51 PM
I've houseruled monkey grip does away with the penalty altogether and works with offhand weapons. So with a few select feats a fighter can wield the equivalent of 2 greatswords.

If you go that route, you may want to consider putting prerequisites that restrict the feat to mid-to-high levels, since it's pretty good for a single feat. A BAB prerequisite should do the trick.

Fawsto
2007-02-25, 01:30 PM
Krimm, My DM did the same thing... A Elf Ranger attacked the Dwarven Druid (with almost 34 hp) and droped him to -15 hp in 1 single round... We ran away as fast as we could... (The DM was also a good guy an allowed the dwarf to stay at -9...).

I Know, it still doesn't make it a good Feat, but combined with a Use exotic weapon, It can do some nasty combos at an expense of precision. (Assuming a fighter with a strenght score of 16) Imagine a Big Dire Pick with the Keen, "X" Explosion and Thundering spells dealing (2d6 +3) x4 + 1d6 + 3d10 + 3d8 (average dmg: 66; maximum dmg: 120; minimum: 27) at 19, 20 crits. It is mostly sure to activate massive damage rule on medium sized creatures. Or a Big Bastard Sword with the same spells Dealing (2d8 + 3) x2 + 1d6 + 1d10 + 1d8 (average dmg: 34; maximum: 62; minimum: 13) at 17,18,19,20 crits. You must agree that this hurts! If you can afford this one: Big Elven Blade (still able to use finesse with it) (2d6 + 3) x2 + 1d6 + 1d10 + 1d8 (av: 30, Max: 54; min: 13) every 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. Nice isn't it?

Now probably someone will say that scoring a critical is hard, well, if you score with a big weapon it will woth even more. Well, I like to focus on critical hits, pehaps because I am a little lucky and I score at least 2 per session, but, again, it is a matter of taste.

Zincorium
2007-02-25, 07:23 PM
Krimm, My DM did the same thing... A Elf Ranger attacked the Dwarven Druid (with almost 34 hp) and droped him to -15 hp in 1 single round... We ran away as fast as we could... (The DM was also a good guy an allowed the dwarf to stay at -9...).

I Know, it still doesn't make it a good Feat, but combined with a Use exotic weapon, It can do some nasty combos at an expense of precision. (Assuming a fighter with a strenght score of 16) Imagine a Big Dire Pick with the Keen, "X" Explosion and Thundering spells dealing (2d6 +3) x4 + 1d6 + 3d10 + 3d8 (average dmg: 66; maximum dmg: 120; minimum: 27) at 19, 20 crits. It is mostly sure to activate massive damage rule on medium sized creatures. Or a Big Bastard Sword with the same spells Dealing (2d8 + 3) x2 + 1d6 + 1d10 + 1d8 (average dmg: 34; maximum: 62; minimum: 13) at 17,18,19,20 crits. You must agree that this hurts! If you can afford this one: Big Elven Blade (still able to use finesse with it) (2d6 + 3) x2 + 1d6 + 1d10 + 1d8 (av: 30, Max: 54; min: 13) every 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. Nice isn't it?

Now probably someone will say that scoring a critical is hard, well, if you score with a big weapon it will woth even more. Well, I like to focus on critical hits, pehaps because I am a little lucky and I score at least 2 per session, but, again, it is a matter of taste.

Well, it's not that you have a bad strategy, it's that monkey grip is the weakest part of it. -2 to confirming a critical isn't all that fun, and the additional damage from monkey grip does very little to make the strategy better, since a lot of your damage is going to be coming from the elemental enchantments. Power attack is still more useful in this situation, as it gets doubled (or quadrupled, or whatever) on a critical hit as well.

Fawsto
2007-02-25, 09:00 PM
Hmmm... So again it falls on flavor... If you are the kind of guy that prefers to have a massive defense (like me) rather than a big chance to hit (I like defense more than offense 'cause I am a lucky bastard that scores some badass criticals) you don't matter a lot in hiting your enemy. And maybe, a way to score a few more damage points is using a big weapon. Well, another reason why I dont use power attack is because I prefer combat expertise. I don't believe that I will even have the chance to hit someone if I get 5 BAB points to my AC and other 5 BAB points to my Damage.

Somehow, my damage improves a little with a minor loss in BAB with a Big Weapon (ex: Power attack 2 + 1d8 + 3 at a -2 penalty, while Monkey Grip 2d6 + 3 at a -2 penalty. Monkey Grip wins with max damage, they tie with the average damage, and Power attack wins with minimum damage. At some level, they are equivalent; Power attack can be shut down, unfortunatly, Monkey grip can't... But if you have weapon focus: long sword, it applies to ANY version of a longsword, and you can use a big longsword with 2 hands at no penalty). Besides that If you wait enough you can get Use Giant Weapon, where the -2 penalty is lost (I wonder if they would transform it into a non-epic feat...).

You see, monkey grip is good for some combos, while power attack is better to others. Sometimes they can even stack to a even deadlyer combo (that I am pursuing). It all depends on the situation given...

This is my point of view... If the thing of "use it 2 handed with no penalty" is wrong, I still prefer the Monkey Grip because it is stilish, at least, I think it is.

Oh, wait, Power attack won't also harm your roll to confirm the critical?

Stevenson
2007-02-25, 09:07 PM
I simply use it so my gnome favored soul can use the weapon it has weapon focus in along with being able to cast spells with a free hand. But it actually creates some very, very broken rules. 1st level character doing, eh, 4d8 with every sword swing for example.

Whoops, edit. That's 4d10.

Rigeld2
2007-02-25, 09:10 PM
I'm not exactly sure how you get 4d8, but im AFB right now and dont remember the chart. Even still, tanking your accuracy like that means your average damage wont go up.

edit to follow his edit:
Okay, now you have to explain how you get 4d10 at level one. AFAIK its not possible.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-25, 09:12 PM
Stevenson--whatever it is you're doing, Monkey Grip does NOT work that way.

Zincorium
2007-02-25, 10:00 PM
I simply use it so my gnome favored soul can use the weapon it has weapon focus in along with being able to cast spells with a free hand. But it actually creates some very, very broken rules. 1st level character doing, eh, 4d8 with every sword swing for example.

Whoops, edit. That's 4d10.

Alright, let's check this: the largest medium size weapon available is 2d8, and that's only if you allow borderline 3.0 stuff. I'm talking fullblade, in case anyone is going 'wtf?'.

Now, increased by one size, that's 4d6. Not too shabby, but not anywhere near 4d10. There are no 1st level creatures that are large size, so it's irrelevant whether you get more going up further.

Stevenson
2007-02-25, 10:00 PM
Oh, I'M not doing anything. It's another person in my group who doesn't really bother to tell us HOW he bends the rules, except in long-winded discussions between him and the DM that ultimately I doubt either of them understand. But he managed to do it. Something about the balanced weapon quality, powerful build, and monkey grip with a greatsword. Though I'm not entirely sure, he isn't using that character any more (thank the heavens).

Heck, it may not have even followed the rules, he just didn't know or didn't care, and managed to hoodwink everyone.

Rigeld2
2007-02-25, 10:01 PM
Powerful Build and Monkey Grip dont stack. So its illegal.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-25, 10:03 PM
Yeah, that definitely doesn't work (and you can't have Powerful Build at first level, anyway).

Stevenson
2007-02-25, 10:04 PM
As a goliath you can, can't ye?

Rigeld2
2007-02-25, 10:05 PM
As a goliath you can, can't ye?
LA +1 means youre at least ECL 2, so not first level.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-25, 10:05 PM
You can't be a goliath at first level. Goliaths have LA +1. So you'd need to be ECL 2, not ECL 1.

Even if you're a goliath, it doesn't help. Monkey Grip and Powerful Build don't stack.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-02-26, 01:06 AM
And Balanced is a +1 ability. So you'd need a +1 sword that also has the Balanced ability. And I seriously doubt you can afford that at level 1 unless your GM is handing out bagfuls of platinum and gemstones.

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-26, 05:00 AM
8,300 gp, ish. No, I don't think first level characters have that much money.

Fawsto
2007-02-26, 10:52 AM
It all depends on how lucky the Rogue is with his pretidigitation and bluff checks. :smallbiggrin:

Person_Man
2007-02-26, 11:51 AM
I wasn't aware a little extra +2 was such a linchpin in overextending a skill that's already too easily maxed out.

I love half-elves, but I don't need them for my Diplomacy as long as I have Bluff, Sense Motive, and Knowledge (nobility and royalty). The +2 is a nice addition, but it's hardly a requirement.

I think The_Snark might be referring to the Sociable Personality feat from RoD, which is Half-Elf only. It allows you to re-roll any Diplomacy or Gather Information Check. Definitely an excellent feat if you play a social Skill heavy campaign, or your DM allows you to talk your way out of a lot of combats without robbing you of precious XP points (though you still wouldn't get their treasure, so in general its best to kill enemies rather then winning them over to your side).

Fax Celestis
2007-02-26, 12:07 PM
Nothing in D&D looks cooler because you take a certain feat or spell. There are no graphics in D&D. Things look however you and your DM agree they should look. So you can carry a sword that you describe to be twice as long as your body, but just use the mechanic for a normal greatsword. You can cast a Fireball that explodes in purple lightning, but it still deals fire damage. It's just a matter of you being creative, rather then relying on the sometimes excellent but sometimes cruddy fluff descriptions provided by WotC.

I would have to say that Spell Thematics (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Spell_Thematics,all) and Ocular Spell (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Ocular_Spell,all) are exceptions to this rule, but they're still exceptions.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-26, 12:14 PM
I think The_Snark might be referring to the Sociable Personality feat from RoD, which is Half-Elf only.
Ah. See, on my limited budget, I've been following the Complete line of books rather than the Races of series. I'm at a total loss for whatever comes out of those books.

Missing Shoe
2007-02-26, 12:24 PM
I would have to say that Spell Thematics (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Spell_Thematics,all) and Ocular Spell (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Ocular_Spell,all) are exceptions to this rule, but they're still exceptions.

Huh. So it is possible to have bears shooting lasers from your eyes in DnD.
Boromir wasnt that far off after all....

Person_Man
2007-02-26, 01:26 PM
Ah. See, on my limited budget, I've been following the Complete line of books rather than the Races of series. I'm at a total loss for whatever comes out of those books.

I actually only own about 8 WotC books and a few 3rd party supplements. But any time I read something useful on the web, I bookmark it, and I keep my bookmarks well organized by race, class, feat, builds, etc. I think the Races books are sewage (powerful, but awful). But they're pretty heavily used on the optimization boards, so I've become pretty familiar with most of the “best” feats for accomplishing any specific task.


I would have to say that Spell Thematics (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Spell_Thematics,all) and Ocular Spell (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Ocular_Spell,all) are exceptions to this rule, but they're still exceptions.

Yeah, I concede that Spell Thematics and Ocular Spell specifically change how a spell looks. But I essentially give all of my players the opportunity to describe how any of their magic looks and acts, and if they don't come up with something, then I describe it for them. I have no problem with blue fire or magic missiles that shoot from your eyes or whatever, as long as it doesn't change game mechanics.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-26, 01:31 PM
In my game, I decided that the Storm Bolt reserve feat lets me shoot lightning bolts from my eyes. No one has objected.

(If they did, I'd shoot them with lightning bolts from my eyes.)

headwarpage
2007-02-26, 01:48 PM
I see no reason ordinary ray spells couldn't involve beams shooting out of your eyes. It's not how I picture D&D magic, but it's entirely possible.

barawn
2007-02-26, 02:33 PM
I'm not exactly sure how you get 4d8, but im AFB right now and dont remember the chart. Even still, tanking your accuracy like that means your average damage wont go up.

Not that I disagree (Monkey Grip does suck horribly) but regarding the whole "tanking accuracy to increase damage doesn't work": Are you sure about this? As far as I can tell, it's wrong, as was noted before, as it depends on what your chance to hit was originally. Otherwise Power Attack would suck too. The reason Monkey Grip sucks is because 1) it costs a feat, and 2) it's a pretty small benefit and no other feats use it as a prerequisite.

Gloves of Monkey Grip wouldn't suck horrendously, for instance. Giving up accuracy to increase damage is not the awful situation you're making it out to be: a character with BAB +5 fighting an AC 15 creature with a greatsword does 3.85 points of damage per round on average (0.55*7). The same character with a Monkey Gripped Large greatsword would do 4.725 points of damage per round on average (0.45*10.5). In that scenario, Monkey Grip only loses out when you're doing 16+ points of damage on average without it. If you've got a low to-hit chance, yeah, most feats that lower your accuracy suck. If you've got a high to-hit chance, though, feats that lower your accuracy are great.

Person_Man
2007-02-26, 03:44 PM
Not that I disagree (Monkey Grip does suck horribly) but regarding the whole "tanking accuracy to increase damage doesn't work": Are you sure about this? As far as I can tell, it's wrong, as was noted before, as it depends on what your chance to hit was originally. Otherwise Power Attack would suck too. The reason Monkey Grip sucks is because 1) it costs a feat, and 2) it's a pretty small benefit and no other feats use it as a prerequisite.

Gloves of Monkey Grip wouldn't suck horrendously, for instance. Giving up accuracy to increase damage is not the awful situation you're making it out to be: a character with BAB +5 fighting an AC 15 creature with a greatsword does 3.85 points of damage per round on average (0.55*7). The same character with a Monkey Gripped Large greatsword would do 4.725 points of damage per round on average (0.45*10.5). In that scenario, Monkey Grip only loses out when you're doing 16+ points of damage on average without it. If you've got a low to-hit chance, yeah, most feats that lower your accuracy suck. If you've got a high to-hit chance, though, feats that lower your accuracy are great.

Like everything in D&D, the correct answer is "it depends." I can't derive a proof for you showing that Monkey Grip sucks, unless you want to assume the AC of your enemies are uniformly or normally distributed, which they are not.

Power Attack works because its a 2-1 ratio (with two handed weapons). But even then, it doesn't always help you to max out your Power Attack. I suggest looking at some of the Power Attack calculators on the web, like this one (http://home.gwi.net/%7Erdorman/frilond/rul/dm/power.htm). I physically print out the appropriate chart (with a additional charts to account for when I Charge, or fall Prone, etc) every time I play a PC with Power Attack. It's pretty easy to guess an enemy's AC after a few rounds, and to find the optimal Power Attack ratio.

Tengu
2007-02-26, 04:03 PM
In my game, I decided that the Storm Bolt reserve feat lets me shoot lightning bolts from my eyes. No one has objected.

(If they did, I'd shoot them with lightning bolts from my eyes.)
But fireballs come from eyes! It is your arse you shoot lightning bolts from.

barawn
2007-02-26, 04:47 PM
Power Attack works because its a 2-1 ratio (with two handed weapons).

Monkey Grip is pretty close to a 2-1 ratio as well (-2 for +3.5). It just doesn't scale, at all. Yes, it's not Power Attack, but it does (obviously) stack with Power Attack, so if the party's built in such a way to uber-buff the melee fighter, there might be advantages to it.

Like I said, the downside to Monkey Grip is that it's a feat, its benefit is pretty minimal, and there's no Feat chain it's involved in. As an item, it would have some use depending on how expensive it was.

I mean, if Monkey Grip even allowed all of the size modifiers (i.e. light, one-handed, two-handed) to be reduced by one, it'd be better - i.e., you could use a Huge longsword sword two handed at a -4 penalty (or for total silliness, a Gargantuan dagger two-handed at -6 - okay, there's not much use for that). While that doesn't seem like an advantage at all (why not use a greatsword), if there was an Improved Monkey Grip (reduce by 2, prereq Monkey Grip) it'd start looking downright respectable, although not Power Attack, obviously.

But alas, poor Monkey Grip. You do not work that way, and thus, suck.

Fawsto
2007-02-26, 11:00 PM
You know, I liked how the Neverwinter Nights 2 game treats monkey grip. Now you can use a Largesword as a Longsword, thus the feat will work with any comom weapon that you want to use one handed but must use 2 handed. You must agree that there are some situations taht monkey grip is good, like using it to stack up to use exotic weapon and power attack. Just remember that in Level 20 a Fighters BAB is 20 + strenght, also remember that it is quite hard to get lots of AC since they don't enhance with lvls, at best someone would have a +5 Full Plate (total 13 ac bonus) + a +5 tower shield (total 9 ac bonus) and a +5 item of protection, meaning a 37 AC score. Well If a fighter has a strenght of 24 (+7) and a +5 weapon and his 18 bab (reduced by Monkey grip) he would get a ab of 30 + d20, more than easy to bypass a 37 ac bonus... (Of course the enemy could be a lvl 20 fighter using improved combat expertise, meaning his AC would increase to 57, but hey, he can't hit you no more, neither you can hit him, only with natural 20s.) My point is, stack the Power attack here, use 3 of your bab to deal extra 3 damage, meaning that your attack bonus decreases to 27 + 1d20, its ok to hit the guy with a 10 in a d20, but you are dealing a nice damage.

In my point of view Monkey Grip and Power attack are equivalents, with power attack wining by just a small bit because it increases when using it 2 handed... That's it... Just like that, Monkey Grip is better to the guys who prefer defense over ofense, because they can deploy more damge with each blow and still use combat expertise to increase the AC as much as they want without dividing the poll with power attack.

Btw... Monkey grip gets cheesy at epic lvls when you are deploying more damage without touching your BAB... Must agree taht in this terms Maonkey grip is a little better.

Rigeld2
2007-02-26, 11:04 PM
I have no idea what 90% of what you typed means, and the 10% I can decipher is a wrong assumption.

Its trivial to get above a 37 AC, for example, for a Fighter.

Zincorium
2007-02-26, 11:14 PM
You know, I liked how the Neverwinter Nights 2 game treats monkey grip. Now you can use a Largesword as a Longsword, thus the feat will work with any comom weapon that you want to use one handed but must use 2 handed. You must agree that there are some situations taht monkey grip is good, like using it to stack up to use exotic weapon and power attack. Just remember that in Level 20 a Fighters BAB is 20 + strenght, also remember that it is quite hard to get lots of AC since they don't enhance with lvls, at best someone would have a +5 Full Plate (total 13 ac bonus) + a +5 tower shield (total 9 ac bonus) and a +5 item of protection, meaning a 37 AC score. Well If a fighter has a strenght of 24 (+7) and a +5 weapon and his 18 bab (reduced by Monkey grip) he would get a ab of 30 + d20, more than easy to bypass a 37 ac bonus... (Of course the enemy could be a lvl 20 fighter using improved combat expertise, meaning his AC would increase to 57, but hey, he can't hit you no more, neither you can hit him, only with natural 20s.) My point is, stack the Power attack here, use 3 of your bab to deal extra 3 damage, meaning that your attack bonus decreases to 27 + 1d20, its ok to hit the guy with a 10 in a d20, but you are dealing a nice damage.

In my point of view Monkey Grip and Power attack are equivalents, with power attack wining by just a small bit because it increases when using it 2 handed... That's it... Just like that, Monkey Grip is better to the guys who prefer defense over ofense, because they can deploy more damge with each blow and still use combat expertise to increase the AC as much as they want without dividing the poll with power attack.

Btw... Monkey grip gets cheesy at epic lvls when you are deploying more damage without touching your BAB... Must agree taht in this terms Maonkey grip is a little better.

1. Animated shield property. Yay! I can use both hands now, and thus wield a two handed weapon and a nifty shield.

2. Preferring offense over defense is not a sound strategy unless you are one on one with something that needs to hit your AC to deal damage to you. That means that 90% of the later game, which you're talking about, defensive characters become irrelevant.

3. Forgot to add in the amulet of natural armor.

4. Shock trooper. Leap attack. Frenzied berserker. The ratio of damage from power attack just skyrocketed. There is nothing you can do to increase monkey grip prior to epic levels, as has been explained.

5. Wizards in epic do not have to meet you face to face to slay you and your entire non-wizard family without a save in a few rounds. Epic is broken, and nothing a fighter does qualifies as cheese anymore.

6. You can use your full BAB with power attack, and full expertise. They don't subtract from your BAB, they just limit the penalty to hit you can take to your BAB, or 5 I think in the case of expertise.

7. You can talk about NWN 2 all you want, but that doesn't mean anything. A great many feats, skills, and prcs from NWN2 have been changed radically from 3.5. Monkey grip being one, power attack being another.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-26, 11:17 PM
http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/pwned-48495.jpg

Fawsto
2007-02-27, 11:56 AM
All right all right... Ok, you say MG sucks, because you are saying it, and as far it concearns me you must be the great overlords of knowlege... I don't care... Well, now if you let me, I shall deploy the use of the feat as I wish.

1) For a few rounds. Brilliant Energy weapon would remove your Full Plate and your nafty shield from the play, while the Improved Combat Expertise bonus won't be reduced. Improved Sunder + power attack/big weapon.

2) You mean magic? Never Mentioned Fighting wizards.

3) Yes I did... Now you have a +5, meaning a 43 AC bonus (forgot to add +1 dex bonus). Oh God, you have the AC of a Dragon... Big deal indeed... A lvl 20 fighter surely will never hit you without a natural 20... (+5 weapon + huge dex/str bonus + 20 + a d20...)

4) So you are planing only for fighters, cause no other fighting classe can get as much feats (at exception for the barbarian, as he works as pre req to the Frenzied dude.). And you are a single actioned character.

5) Never mentioned fighting wizards.

6) If these are the rules, ok. But sounds a bit hard to belive that a barbarian can perform iron breaking attacks while fencing the enemy...

7) Well, I said NWN2 worked the feat in a better way, just that.

8) This is mostly one on one combat, yes. But may be used to define several lesser foes attacking you.

As I said, you may be right, I don't care. At least I can understand the other people styles for playing this GAME. It isn't a matter of who is right or who is wrong, It is about the FUN. My objective while posting here is saying that if you use it well it can be at least a combo complement feat.

Btw, sry for the confusing post, I typed it while I was suffering from insonia, still sleepy but unable to sleep. So I was at the computer typing my previows post. Also English isn't my mother language, so I usually comit minor and major mistakes.

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-27, 12:29 PM
I can do exactly the same with Power Attack, sorry. Mathematically, Monkey Grip is inferior.

Do the maths some time. Don't just use anecdotal evidence. Break out that calculator.

Fawsto
2007-02-27, 12:42 PM
That is my point, I already said that power attack is a bit superior, but I also said that the main reason for using the feat is the style of the player. Geez...


I am moving out from this topic... It is starting to get a little personal.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-27, 03:08 PM
I'm thinking about using Monkey Grip with a greatsword. Damage will go from 2d6 to 3d6 (anyone else thinks that the weapon size damage list is broken?)
A rise in 3.5 average damage. Minimum +1, and maximum +6, for a -2. Balanced enough for me. Later, when I reach epic level (my DM plans to get us that far), I can get Wield Oversized Weapon, that nullifies the damage.
And more: Monkey Grip + Power Attack. Less hits, yes, but a hell of a lot more damage.

Another possible cheese: get a race like Goliath, and give him a huge greathammer with monkey grip... The damage progression is so broken it ain't funny.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-27, 03:10 PM
Arrgh.
Just use a normal Greatsword and power attack for -2 AB, +4 damage when you need to. THere'll be plenty of times it's better NOT to, and you can't turn Monkey Grip off.

Monkey Grip + Power Attack doesn't really matter, because you pretty much NEVER want to Power Attack for your *whole BAB*. You'll miss too much.

Powerful Build DOES NOT STACK with Monkey Grip.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-27, 03:15 PM
Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.

Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

Note the absence of "feats".

Also note that Monkey Grip does not change your size category, it merely lets you use larger weapons.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-27, 03:34 PM
No, I'll use the large greatsword just in spite of everyone that tells me not to :p
Oops, I thought that goliath were actually large-sized, instead of having powerful build. I need to re-read it.

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-27, 03:45 PM
Hey, guess what everybody? Monkey Grip + Power Attack for -2 is inferior to Power Attack for -4.

You heard me.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-27, 03:46 PM
What it is, Jive Turkey.

barawn
2007-02-27, 03:47 PM
Monkey Grip + Power Attack doesn't really matter, because you pretty much NEVER want to Power Attack for your *whole BAB*. You'll miss too much.


At higher levels, definitely.

At low levels, I don't really agree - it's easy to get a decent amount of bonuses to hit in combat. Flanking, charge, low-level support spells (Bless, etc). If you're a fighter-type, then you've probably got a decent to-hit chance already, so you're better off boosting the damage for the minor miss chance increase. The barbarian in our last party always just basically turned every single bonus that was laid on him into Power Attack, and he frequently wanted more.

But that only makes Monkey Grip + Power Attack useful for a handful of early levels. Which is why it sucks - because after those levels, you sure as heck aren't using it any more.

barawn
2007-02-27, 03:51 PM
Hey, guess what everybody? Monkey Grip + Power Attack for -2 is inferior to Power Attack for -4.

Minimum level needed for Power Attack for -4: 4.

Minimum level needed for Monkey Grip + Power Attack: 1.

Of course, that means Monkey Grip is useful for a grand total of maybe 3 levels. :smallbiggrin:

Matthew
2007-02-27, 03:52 PM
If you are going to do it regardless, why not a Large Full Blade?

Power attack is a 2:1 Ratio. At Level 2 a Fighter will have enough BAB to exceed the benefits of Monkey Grip. However, Monkey Grip will always provide a -2 / +3.5 over and above Power Attack, but since the Fighter has to take an AB Penalty equal to his BAB for it to make a difference, it's rubbish.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-27, 03:59 PM
The only time I'd ever consider taking Monkey Grip would be for a Large-sized Legacy Weapon (like Bloodcrier's Hammer).

barawn
2007-02-27, 04:31 PM
but since the Fighter has to take an AB Penalty equal to his BAB for it to make a difference, it's rubbish.

OK, ignoring the fact that it's a feat, and for the cost of a feat, it sucks, other than that, it's not that bad. It's pretty easy with a little bit of strategy to get a pretty large boost to your attack rolls. Heck, a first level character on a warhorse can charge into a flanking position gets +7 to attack all by his lonesome.

I mean, if your party is built such that a fighter can absorb a Power Attack for -2 each round (due to persistent buffs, etc.) then Monkey Grip wouldn't be so terrible.

The concept mechanically of Monkey Grip isn't awful. It's the implementation that's terrible.

Is there a magic item somewhere that does what Monkey Grip does? I don't recall one.

marjan
2007-02-27, 04:41 PM
You can get some benefits from Monkey Grip that you can't from Power Attack. If you use Aura of Chaos Stance then increase in dice you roll might prove that you do quite more damage then with Power Attack (in the worse case 2 dmg for Large Great Sword). Though probably there are better stances to use, but it's an option.

Matthew
2007-02-27, 05:21 PM
OK, ignoring the fact that it's a feat, and for the cost of a feat, it sucks, other than that, it's not that bad. It's pretty easy with a little bit of strategy to get a pretty large boost to your attack rolls. Heck, a first level character on a warhorse can charge into a flanking position gets +7 to attack all by his lonesome.

I mean, if your party is built such that a fighter can absorb a Power Attack for -2 each round (due to persistent buffs, etc.) then Monkey Grip wouldn't be so terrible.

The concept mechanically of Monkey Grip isn't awful. It's the implementation that's terrible.

Is there a magic item somewhere that does what Monkey Grip does? I don't recall one.

What you are ignoring, though, is that Monkey Grip reduces AB without recourse to any advantages.

So for instance:

Fighter 2 with Large Great Sword and Monkey Grip = -2 AB, +1D6 DB
Fighter 2 with Great Sword and Power Attack = -2 AB, +4 DB

That's all there is to it. Whatever additional AB you can get applies to both instances equally. It doesn't matter whether you get +2 AB for Charging, because you get it for both. The only instance where Monkey Grip works is:

Fighter 2 with Large Great Sword, Monkey Grip and Power Attack = -4 AB +1D6+4 Damage

When you multiply that by X percentage number of hits you may find a range of percentages where it works out better than Power Attack. However, you can never get rid of the -2 AB that Monkey Grip lumbers you with. It's not only conceptually lame (in my biast opinion), but mechanically pathetic.

barawn
2007-02-27, 05:34 PM
When you multiply that by X percentage number of hits you may find a range of percentages where it works out better than Power Attack. However, you can never get rid of the -2 AB that Monkey Grip lumbers you with. It's not only conceptually lame (in my biast opinion), but mechanically pathetic.

Um. Sure you can. Use a normal-sized weapon. Costs more than Power Attack's switch, but it's not "pathetic". Not too hard to carry around two weapons, and draw whichever one's appropriate.

Edit: Oh, and the reason why bonuses matter: if you work out the math, you have to get to a pretty high average damage before trading 10% for 3.5 damage is bad. So if you're in a level appropriate fight, it usually makes mathematical sense to convert all of the extraneous bonuses (flanking, etc.) to damage in whatever way possible., because you've likely got a 50% chance or so to hit him anyway.

Matthew
2007-02-27, 05:38 PM
It's a bit expensive to have to enchant two weapons for the moment you want to turn off Monkey Grip, don't you think? Plus, is it really plausible for a character to be able to carry two Great Swords around with him (one of which is Large)? If you have in mind an entirely separate weapon, sure, but you'd have been better off taking Weapon Focus than Monkey Grip.

barawn
2007-02-27, 05:42 PM
It's a bit expensive to have to enchant two weapons for the moment you want to turn off Monkey Grip, don't you think?

Hence the reason I said that Monkey Grip only really has value at low levels.


Plus, is it really plausible for a character to be able to carry two Great Swords around with him (one of which is Large)?

Hey, if you're talking about a big hulking barbarian, I could see him carrying three or four greatswords around. Each with names. And at night he pulls each one out and pets it lovingly.

Matthew
2007-02-27, 05:47 PM
Three or four Great Swords? Well, I guess it would be in keeping with the concept of Monkey Grip...

At Level 1 you would be much better served by Weapon Focus and Power Attack, as you end up with a net gain +2 DB for two Feats that can be traded for +1 AB. However, if you are playing at Level 1 or 2, you are probably going to be better off with a Heavy Shield and Long Sword than any Great Sword and Monkey Grip combination... (as the enemies you're facing aren't likely to have much int he way of Hit Points to lose)

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-27, 05:51 PM
Plus, is it really plausible for a character to be able to carry two Great Swords around with him (one of which is Large)?
I dunno. It almost seems ya have to. Y'know: An Adamantine one for Golems. A Cold Iron one for Demons and Fey. A Silver one for Devils and Lycanthropes. If possible, they should all be enchanted to help get around those pesky individuals with the "and Magic" addition.

Rigeld2
2007-02-27, 05:52 PM
Or... since the DR on most of those isnt that high, you just Power Attack through it.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-27, 05:53 PM
As long as you don't have to drop your AB too low. :smallwink:

Zincorium
2007-02-27, 05:54 PM
All right all right... Ok, you say MG sucks, because you are saying it, and as far it concearns me you must be the great overlords of knowlege... I don't care... Well, now if you let me, I shall deploy the use of the feat as I wish.

Not stopping you, but I maintain my position on it. I've done the math, I've seen it in play, I've watched a LOT of people misquote it and otherwise bungle the feat. And Monkey grip doesn't suck because I say it does, It sucks because of it's lack of versatility, it's lack of place in feat chains, and the fact that it does not work with or stack with the majority of things which would make it useful. That it's mechanically inferior to power attack, which came first, means it's probably safer to just stick with the original.



1) For a few rounds. Brilliant Energy weapon would remove your Full Plate and your nafty shield from the play, while the Improved Combat Expertise bonus won't be reduced. Improved Sunder + power attack/big weapon.


Actually, your example makes my point even more valid. we're at the same AC to start with, and because I can turn power attack off, I can maybe still hit things while using full expertise. You can't turn monkey grip off.



2) You mean magic? Never Mentioned Fighting wizards.


No, and neither did I, although it's something that will happen sooner or later in almost every game. If you can't deal damage, and significant damage, the monster is going to go looking for something else that's more dangerous and easier to hit. Like the rogue who's flanking it. Or possibly the wizard.



3) Yes I did... Now you have a +5, meaning a 43 AC bonus (forgot to add +1 dex bonus). Oh God, you have the AC of a Dragon... Big deal indeed... A lvl 20 fighter surely will never hit you without a natural 20... (+5 weapon + huge dex/str bonus + 20 + a d20...)


I was pointing out that you were wrong about the maximum AC, which you were using in calculations. Not to mention there are a lot of other, less common things to boost AC which may very well make a difference. If you intend to be taken as an authority, you need to do the research. Otherwise, you're just some person on the internet like everyone else.



4) So you are planing only for fighters, cause no other fighting classe can get as much feats (at exception for the barbarian, as he works as pre req to the Frenzied dude.). And you are a single actioned character.


Any class can get one of those feats, and even one is enough to make power attack clearly superior mechanically. Frenzied berserker is even better.

[/quote]
5) Never mentioned fighting wizards.



But you mention epic, and I'm telling you that a few more points of damage in epic is meaningless, because of what else epic allows. If you want to stick to sane, meaningful examples, stay at lower levels.

[quote]
6) If these are the rules, ok. But sounds a bit hard to belive that a barbarian can perform iron breaking attacks while fencing the enemy...


Those are indeed the rules, and they do not rely on your imagination to function for everyone else.



7) Well, I said NWN2 worked the feat in a better way, just that.


It does. And like I said, you can talk about it all you want, although you should probably go to the other games section. It's still no relevant to the D&D rules set.



8) This is mostly one on one combat, yes. But may be used to define several lesser foes attacking you.


And nothing changes.



As I said, you may be right, I don't care. At least I can understand the other people styles for playing this GAME. It isn't a matter of who is right or who is wrong, It is about the FUN. My objective while posting here is saying that if you use it well it can be at least a combo complement feat.

Btw, sry for the confusing post, I typed it while I was suffering from insonia, still sleepy but unable to sleep. So I was at the computer typing my previows post. Also English isn't my mother language, so I usually comit minor and major mistakes.

Don't make the mistake of thinking I don't play the game for fun. I do. And I understand other people's styles of playing. You're being very passive aggressive here.

My contention is opposite yours, that monkey grip is the least good choice almost all the time, the core feat power attack should be used instead. As a combo complement feat, power attack has far more usefulness and versatility, while remaining a core feat that few DMs will say no to. No one has successfully contested that, and most who do have read a rule or two incorrectly. This isn't aimed at you, but I'm getting, very, very tired of that, and it makes me grumpy.

Matthew
2007-02-27, 05:55 PM
I dunno. It almost seems ya have to. Y'know: An Adamantine one for Golems. A Cold Iron one for Demons and Fey. A Silver one for Devils and Lycanthropes. If possible, they should all be enchanted to help get around those pesky individuals with the "and Magic" addition.

Sure, but then you have to carry around a Large and Medium version of each one...

I pretty much draw the line at two One Handed Weapons and two Light Weapons worn, other weapons could be carried in free hands or secured on a character's back (but not likely drawn from there).

barawn
2007-02-27, 06:23 PM
Three or four Great Swords? Well, I guess it would be in keeping with the concept of Monkey Grip...

And warriors, in general. Hence the cliche of the warrior who removes about a half-dozen weapons hidden from various locations.

Given the size, though, you'd more likely be carrying the weapons on your mount, for instance.


At Level 1 you would be much better served by Weapon Focus and Power Attack, as you end up with a net gain +2 DB for two Feats that can be traded for +1 AB.

Er? How does Weapon Focus+Power Attack give you +2 damage? It only gives +1 on attack rolls. You still can only Power Attack for 1, as your BAB is only 1.

Rigeld2
2007-02-27, 06:24 PM
Er? How does Weapon Focus+Power Attack give you +2 damage? It only gives +1 on attack rolls. You still can only Power Attack for 1, as your BAB is only 1.
Power Attack for 1, Two handed weapon gives you 2 damage.

Matthew
2007-02-27, 06:29 PM
And warriors, in general. Hence the cliche of the warrior who removes about a half-dozen weapons hidden from various locations.

What Warrior cliche? Most of the fantasy warriors you hear about are rather attached to one or two weapons. Caramon is pretty much the only D&D Warrior I can think of who is often described as carrying an arsenal, but those are never really explored or detailed, as far as I recall, and any depictions of him tend to not show any such thing.

In any case, with regards to a character carrying both a Large sized and a Medium sized Great Sword, it just isn't practical, never mind three or four.

As Rigeld says. Weapon Focus +1 AB, Power Attack -1 AB, +2 DB = Net Gain +2 DB.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-27, 06:51 PM
What Warrior cliche? Most of the fantasy warriors you hear about are rather attached to one or two weapons. Caramon is pretty much the only D&D Warrior I can think of who is often described as carrying an arsenal, but those are never really explored or detailed, as far as I recall, and any depictions of him tend to not show any such thing.
Generally it's a mess of concealed daggers.

And I think I've seen it more often with modern Action Hero type movies where they remove an assortment of handguns.

Matthew
2007-02-27, 06:56 PM
Yes, that does sound rather like an Action Hero cliche. Saying that, I think I recall Drizzt keeping a Knife in each boot, as well as carrying his two Scimitars and Bow, maybe a third Dagger as well. That might add up to half a dozen.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-27, 07:43 PM
Nice to see people jumping to "sarcastic mode" when someone disagrees...

That's what I want to do: Base attack +2, Str 17 (+3), no focus os masterworks/magic.

Normal Greatsword:
Normal Attack: +5, Damage 2d6 +4. (min 6, max 16, avg 11)
On a critical: min 12, max 32, avg 22
Power Attack 2 pts: Attack +3, Damage 2d6 +8 (min 10, max 20, avg 15)
On a critical: min 20, max 40, avg 30

Monkey Grip. Large Greatsword:
Normal Attack: +3, Damage 3d6 +4. (min 7, max 22, avg 14.5)
On a critical: min 14, max 44, avg 29
Power Attack 2 pts: Attack +1, Damage 3d6 +8 (min 11, max 26, avg 18.5)
On a critical: min 22, max 52, avg 37

I still think that a -2 for a whole hit dice of damage is reasonable.
Of course, you may ask, "what I'll hit with a +1 at 2nd level?" Well, it's no uncommon to have 2nd level rogues and clerics that have only a +1 to attacks, but still manage to contribute to a fight. My hits deals a lot more damage.

Alternatively, I could use a warmace. 1d12 damage, -1 to attack, and only a 20/x2 critical... but you can use it one-handed! A 1d12 one-handed weapon! The 20/x2 is not so good, and the -1 is annoying... but it has potentials... and it frees up an arm for a shield. Now imagine a large warmace.... >:)

@Matthew: I was going to, but I re-read it, and it indeed is no a weapon for medium characters :( It's there mainly to show how a large weapon would work for large monstrous fighters... unless I read it wrong again.
(and my friend let me use a build with Monkey Grip + Fullblade once... 4d6 of damage... I wonder if this other one would let me...) ;)

crazedloon
2007-02-27, 07:44 PM
I realize that these boards hate TWF and add in this ability I am sure you all will hate it even more :smallwink: however if you were to use it I could almost see it being worth it. Being able to wield the equivalent of a great sword in one hand is a nice advantage (like has been said monkey grip is comparable to a -2 power attack just worse because it is not scalable or turnoffable (I made that word up :smalltongue: )) But with a TWF it is actually the equivalent of -3 or 4 (which everyone knows is horrible with the negatives already gained from TWF) so if TWF was not already so feat intensive I personally could almost see getting monkey grip in that situation.

((I just think the argument is too narow minded becuase you keep compairing the bonus of a 2 handed weapon with power attack to monkey grip and do not look at the other combos (not that they are much better) ))

Matthew
2007-02-27, 08:19 PM
Sure Crazedloon, but remember that Monkey Grip does not work for Off Hand Attacks, sadly (yet another limitation).

Nobody hates Monkey Grip or Two Weapon Fighting, really, any more than they hate Weapon and Shield. Which is most effective and which style you like are two separate issues. Two Handed Fighting in 3.5 in combination with Power Attack is pretty much hands down the winner (except in cases of Bonus Damage) in terms of effective Damage Output. It wasn't so in 3.0, which is both lamented and reviled.

crazedloon
2007-02-27, 08:53 PM
Sure Crazedloon, but remember that Monkey Grip does not work for Off Hand Attacks, sadly (yet another limitation).

Nobody hates Monkey Grip or Two Weapon Fighting, really, any more than they hate Weapon and Shield. Which is most effective and which style you like are two separate issues. Two Handed Fighting in 3.5 in combination with Power Attack is pretty much hands down the winner (except in cases of Bonus Damage) in terms of effective Damage Output. It wasn't so in 3.0, which is both lamented and reviled.

Oh I understand you wont be using it with offhand weapons (though I wouldn't mind seeing a clause that it could if you have oversized 2 weapon but thats a whole new bag o beans)

yep i know I have read far to many arguments on that subject I'm just saying that this is a rather 1 sided argument not looking at a few things that monkey grip is slightly (and that is a very small slight) better then power attack for a longer period of time. (heck I take the monkey grip only becuase its awsome to carry something that big :smalltongue: (yah yah it dont matter you can say it is as big as you want) but realy it like having the extra damage becuase I feel the need to overcompensate :smalltongue: )

Ok and i just thought of the only time monkey grip could be "useful" your are stripped of all yout things and all that is left is a pole to large to wield at the size that you are and to hard to break but you need it as an improvised weapon becuase it is made out of the only material that can hurt the golem about to kill your group. (ok so it will never happen but it could :smalleek: )

barawn
2007-02-27, 09:14 PM
Power Attack for 1, Two handed weapon gives you 2 damage.

Oh, yeah. But Power Attack plus Monkey Grip gives you 3d6+2 damage for -3 rather than 2d6+2 damage. If you can gain the +4 back - which, as I said, you can do pretty easily - charge into a flank, poof, there's your +4 - then obviously, you're in better shape.

Damage of 3d6+2, -3 attack modifier is still going to beat 2d6+2, no attack modifier, so long as you can hit on a 10 (without the modifier). And if the rest of the party is pretty much support, that's not hard to do. Depends on the makeup of the party whether or not that's more effective than Weapon Focus plus Power Attack in general.


In any case, with regards to a character carrying both a Large sized and a Medium sized Great Sword, it just isn't practical, never mind three or four.

Keep the swords on your mount, not carried around with you. Easy enough.

Umbral_Arcanist
2007-02-27, 09:14 PM
The one time i would even consider the taking of monkey grip is as a small character, especially if the DM rules that magic weapons don't resize for the wielder.

Matthew
2007-02-27, 09:26 PM
Oh, yeah. But Power Attack plus Monkey Grip gives you 3d6+2 damage for -3 rather than 2d6+2 damage. If you can gain the +4 back - which, as I said, you can do pretty easily - charge into a flank, poof, there's your +4 - then obviously, you're in better shape.

Damage of 3d6+2, -3 attack modifier is still going to beat 2d6+2, no attack modifier, so long as you can hit on a 10 (without the modifier). And if the rest of the party is pretty much support, that's not hard to do. Depends on the makeup of the party whether or not that's more effective than Weapon Focus plus Power Attack in general.

Indeed, as I said, that would be the only circumstance where there would be an advantage . The chances of it occuring and being useful, though, are next to nothing (except if you are just primarily breaking stuff, like doors and walls).



Keep the swords on your mount, not carried around with you. Easy enough.

Except when you are in combat and want to turn [I]Monkey Grip off, which was the point. I suppose you could hire somebody to carry an extra sword for you, just in case, but it seems like a ridiculous amount of effort to go to for a Feat that is next to useless.

The only real situation I can think of Monkey Grip ever being a 'good' choice is during a campaign where the majority of combat is against Large opponents who have Large Magical Weapons you might want to use.

crazedloon
2007-02-27, 09:33 PM
How could a fighter based off of power attack not be able to carry around 2 weapons :smalleek:

The only problem I forsee is enchanting them as it will get pricey then for a loss of +1 enchantment you could get sizing (I think it is +1) so you only need 1 sword

Matthew
2007-02-27, 09:37 PM
It's not the two weapons part that causes problems, it's the two Great Swords part (one Medium and one Large). Nothing to do with Strength and everything to do with practicality (assuming these weapons are 5-6' long).

barawn
2007-02-27, 09:50 PM
The chances of it occuring and being useful, though, are next to nothing (except if you are just primarily breaking stuff, like doors and walls).

Happens pretty often at low levels, or if the party is primarily support characters and one melee character.


Except when you are in combat and want to turn Monkey Grip off, which was the point.

So you decide before the combat whether or not you want Monkey Grip on or not. Not that hard to decide whether you can eat the -2. ("Let's see... which should I take... this one? or this one?" *glances back at the distant horde* "nope, better go with Vera.")

Fawsto
2007-02-27, 11:36 PM
(lost this post once 'cause the homepage was updating for Erfworld...)

Ok, Ok, I am sorry, really beging your pardon. I tend to be somewhat hotheaded with long discussions. I can't promise taht this won't happen again, but I will try to be a little more pacient.

Clarifications here:

I believe that I used the most common deffensive gear to high level Fighters, Enchanted Armors and Shields, Itens of protection and Natural armor increasers. This are the most common ways to increase it, so I think it serves as an example (I wasn't considering the other methodes to increase the AC).

I still cant figure how a fighter can decide to loose precision to improve damage and AC at once and receiving the maximum effect possible (20 BAB = [+20 damage] + [+20 AC bonus]) . My idea of Combat expertise is the classic fencing, maybe this is why I can't find a way to unleash devastating blows while blocking with a weapon. If your's conception of the feat is equal to mine, assuming than that activating CE is fencing, you may also agree that it is quite unusual to stack both feats. But since these are the rules, ok...

As you said, Epic casters can destroy any (or mostly all) fighter builds. So I wont even bother to pit them in a fight to see who is superior.

I still believe that MK is a feat that reproduces a style, but with some fixes It may become a better feat, not used only for combat. May I show you my idea?

Monkey Grip
Pre req: +1 bab
Your's hand grapple is amazingly powerful, allowing you to wield bigger weapons. This also helps you with grapple manouvers and when climbing. This also allows you to choke your enemies to death while engaged in a grapple manouver.

Benefits: <as monkey grip> + The character is able to use bigger throwing weapons and crossbows, he is able to wield exotic weapons one-handed even if they ask for a especific feat (of course, taking the -2 penalty to attack rolls). The character is still unable to use bigger bows, since he isn't able to pull the string properly. Grapple checks made by the character receive a +2 enhancement bonus. Cimbing checks receive a +2 enhancement bonus. Also your character may deal 1d6 + str modifier of lethal damage per round while in a grapple manouver, only if both hands are free.


Improved Monkey Grip
Pre req: Bab +3, Monkey grip.
Your's grapple has become even more powerful.

Benefits: The penalty for using bigger weapons are reduced by 1. The bonus to grapple and climbing checks is increased to +4. You may deal the double of your characters str modifier when damaging a foe by choking him while in a grapple manouver.


Toss Enemy
pre req: BAB +6, Improved Monkey Grip, Monkey Grip.
You may toss an enemy after a succesfull grapple.

Benefits: Whenever you want, after starting and succeeding in a grapple manouver, you may toss your enemy away dealing 1d6 each 10ft he travels + your characters str modifier. The enemy starts his next action in the prone position. You may also toss the enemy towards another enemy forcing him to make a reflex save check (dc: 15 + str modifier of the character); if he succeeds nothing happens to him; if he fails he receive the damage that the tossed enemy receives and they both will start their next actions in the prone position.


Tell me what you think. Since now MG is a more general feat, that helps in combat and gives some bonuses to other checks and stack with other feats (improved grapple) it may be more usefull from now on.


Again, sorry for my hot temper.

Thomas
2007-02-28, 12:34 AM
My idea of Combat expertise is the classic fencing, maybe this is why I can't find a way to unleash devastating blows while blocking with a weapon. If your's conception of the feat is equal to mine, assuming than that activating CE is fencing, you may also agree that it is quite unusual to stack both feats.

That's just nonsense.

Not only does Combat Expertise not require you to use a rapier (i.e. a fencing weapon), fencing does not preclude powerful attacks and movements. Are you familiar with lunges?

Also, I imagine your idea of fencing is a bit incorrect. A rapier fencer didn't - couldn't, in fact - parry, because the rapier is too long and unwieldy to allow for riposting. (They were among the heaviest and longest single-handed swords, at around 2 pounds and over, and often 4 feet in length.) By the time you recover from your parry, your opponent will have recovered from their attack. (Rapier fencing relied on controlling the placing and distance of the swords to negate attacks and deliver an attack - like a stop-thrust - when your opponent has made an action.) They were single-time weapons, not double-time weapons like modern fencing toys. (No offense, fencers...) It's not the flicking parries and ripostes you see in ridiculous Hollywood movies.

That said, how do you "fence" with a greataxe? You don't - but you can certainly use Combat Expertise with it.

None of that relates to the game mechanics anyhow. Combat Expertise allows you to take a penalty up to -5 on attacks (no higher than your BAB), in exchange for a bonus up to +5 on AC. Power Attack allows you to take a penalty up to your BAB on your attacks, for a bonus to damage. Nowhere do these two conflict. They don't reduce your BAB - that would reduce the number of attacks you get.

Koji
2007-02-28, 01:03 AM
Everyone badmouths this feat, but if you want to take it, there's no reason not to.

I had a player that decided to play as an ogre barbarian who had monkey grip and wielded a huge greatsword. It was great fun and really brought the obnoxiousness of it all into full form. If he was concerned about being able to hit something, he'd just grapple it.

His character was very entertaining, there was a battle where some kobolds drove him into a section of a cave too narrow for him to use his sword, so he simply dropped it and started crushing them with his bare hands. He KO'd a half dozen in a few rounds and from then on they wouldn't go near him.

Fhaolan
2007-02-28, 01:29 AM
Everyone badmouths this feat, but if you want to take it, there's no reason not to.


As long as you're taking the feat purely for flavor, it's fine. The virtrol directed at the feat is because:

1) Lots of people take the feat because they think they're gaining a mechanical advantage. However, it's in fact one of the 'weaker' feats giving less bonus for the cost of a feat than some of the other combat feats.

2) It's not improvable until epic levels. There is no 'feat tree' for it, which makes it a dead-end feat taken simply for flavor.

2) It's overused. Over the last five years, pretty much every convention game I've been in has included one 'giant sword' build. Except one, where the player decided to be creative and use a giant axe instead.

3) Some people think it's 'cool'. Many think it just looks pathetically silly and juvenile. Several that fall in the pathetic school of thought believe that wanting a 'giant sword' is a cry for help, a desperate need for attention, or simply compensating for a lack of intimacy in their social life.

Dark
2007-02-28, 05:36 AM
3) Some people think it's 'cool'. Many think it just looks pathetically silly and juvenile. Several that fall in the pathetic school of thought believe that wanting a 'giant sword' is a cry for help, a desperate need for attention, or simply compensating for a lack of intimacy in their social life.
Armchair Psychologist is a bad feat too, and it doesn't stack with anything useful. It's better to just take ranks in Knowledge (Psychology) so you get the synergy with Bluff, and maybe take a Skill Focus. Or skip the feat completely and pretend you have it.

Thomas
2007-02-28, 05:46 AM
Armchair Psychologist is a bad feat too, and it doesn't stack with anything useful. It's better to just take ranks in Knowledge (Psychology) so you get the synergy with Bluff, and maybe take a Skill Focus. Or skip the feat completely and pretend you have it.

Haha! Zing!

Incidentally, citing Freudian symbolisms is -6 to Diplomacy, but +10 to the "Get Punched?" check...

Roderick_BR
2007-02-28, 07:14 AM
Hmm... -2 attack...+1d6... doesn't sound like a weak feat to me. If it were a -1 for +1d6, it would be too powerful. Comparable with a +1 enhancement enchantment for a weapon, at best. And that can be crited.
But then again, I disagree with 75% of what people says in this forum about many game mechanics.
And yes, I'll use it for flavor, since I usually use a sword/shield build.

Rigeld2
2007-02-28, 07:24 AM
Hmm... -2 attack...+1d6... doesn't sound like a weak feat to me. If it were a -1 for +1d6, it would be too powerful. Comparable with a +1 enhancement enchantment for a weapon, at best. And that can be crited.
But then again, I disagree with 75% of what people says in this forum about many game mechanics.
And yes, I'll use it for flavor, since I usually use a sword/shield build.
1d6 averages to 3.5, right?
on a two handed weapon, if you power attack for 2, how much damage do you get back, with no possibility of variance?

What +1 enchantment gives you a single damage die and penalizes your to-hit?

In a typical sword and shield build, it might be okay, but still not an amazing use of the feat.

Zincorium
2007-02-28, 08:37 AM
Hmm... -2 attack...+1d6... doesn't sound like a weak feat to me. If it were a -1 for +1d6, it would be too powerful. Comparable with a +1 enhancement enchantment for a weapon, at best. And that can be crited.
But then again, I disagree with 75% of what people says in this forum about many game mechanics.
And yes, I'll use it for flavor, since I usually use a sword/shield build.

Weapon damage enhancements aren't generally as favorable in most situations as simply another plus of enchantment, but when you consider that the Balanced enchantment, from arms and equipment guide, does something very similiar to monkey grip, simply without a penalty, and is +2, you're about in the right area.

However, between that (which is still valid for use in 3.5, since no update exists as far as I am aware), the new Enlarge Weapon spell from Complete Scoundrel, and the Powerful Build racial trait, all of which work with all those weapons monkey grip doesn't, none of which have penalties, monkey grip is simply not a very good way of wielding a larger than normal weapon. It is obsolete. It was a needless improvement anyway, given that power attack came first and works better, and it's been completely superseded by options that are better in all ways.

Finally, if there are a lot of people that dislike the continuous debate over monkey grip vs. power attack, as I do, it's generally because every single point that has been made in it's defense has been made before. I have an open mind. If you have reasonable evidence for me to change my mind about it, it will happen. There have been 220 threads on monkey grip (which a forum search will turn up). I can honestly say I've read most of them. And people make the same mistakes every time. Powerful build and monkey grip stacking. Trying to use medium size two handed weapons in one hand. Using monkey grip with an off hand weapon. If you don't care enough to read it over, which would prevent nearly 100% of those errors, why bother defending it?

The point that power attack has significant, mathematically provable benefits above and beyond monkey grip has been stated over, and over, and over, and people still do not understand that fact, and it is fact. If you think it's cool, that's great, but don't get upset if others don't think that's the case, any more than if they don't like bards. If you want to use it any way, don't get bitter about how we're all up against you. WE don't like the feat, and you liking it won't change that, for the same reasons we haven't changed your opinion. So leave it at that, don't say it like it's a point in monkey grip's defense.

And to finally end this rant: I don't recommend monkey grip. If you're literate, you can probably figure out why.

Fawsto
2007-02-28, 10:40 AM
I used the wrong terms there... I mean parry, not fencing... As I said, my mother lenguage is not English, I make mistakes.

Well, I won't discuss this further...

I Just think, for the end of this bloody topic, that if a player wants to get the feat just because he thinks he will look cool, there is no great psychological background, it is just a matter of taste. There are people who like the no armor + light weapon duelist, others like the guy with the spear, there is also the barbarian with axe; this is only a stereotype. End of History.

Now, if you want to at least bring justice to the ones who like the feat, this SHOULD (I am NOT saying it is, in any possible means of understanding) become a topic meant to reestructure it, making a better feat.

We are the players and DMs, we are the ones who "suffer" when a rule is not right. So, in my belief, we are the ones supposed to fix them. Or at least, we should try.

barawn
2007-02-28, 10:41 AM
What +1 enchantment gives you a single damage die and penalizes your to-hit?

In a typical sword and shield build, it might be okay, but still not an amazing use of the feat.

Any +1 enchantment effectively penalizes your to hit, because it doesn't give a +1 enhancement bonus. If it were -1 for +1d6, it would be the same as a Frost enchantment on the weapon without the typed damage (i.e., the weapon costs the same as a +2 weapon, but is +1 with +1d6 damage).

I'll still say - the big problems with Monkey Grip are the poor wording (it should just reduce effort by 1: it doesn't allow you to use something two size categories larger for one effort penalty. It should also allow double weapons to work if wielded two-handed) and lack of a feat chain. And the fact that some people hate the concept of it, but that's silly to me.

Dark
2007-02-28, 11:19 AM
Any +1 enchantment effectively penalizes your to hit, because it doesn't give a +1 enhancement bonus. If it were -1 for +1d6, it would be the same as a Frost enchantment on the weapon without the typed damage (i.e., the weapon costs the same as a +2 weapon, but is +1 with +1d6 damage).
That's 1d6 of frost damage, though, which doesn't affect all monsters, doesn't help you smash through DR, and doesn't get multiplied on a critical hit. Overall you're getting less d6 power than from a larger weapon.

Maybe it should really be -1.5 to hit for +1d6 :)

Fhaolan
2007-02-28, 11:47 AM
Armchair Psychologist is a bad feat too, and it doesn't stack with anything useful. It's better to just take ranks in Knowledge (Psychology) so you get the synergy with Bluff, and maybe take a Skill Focus. Or skip the feat completely and pretend you have it.

I merely stated what I have been told time and time again by people who passionately hate the giant sword concept. I have to assume they're telling me their true opinions, whether they are using the 'Armchair Psychologist' feat or not.

Personally, I don't feel that passionate hatred of the concept. I'm not fond of several of the animes that popularized this style, but not because of the giant sword. I just didn't like the storytelling. There are several animes that I do like, such as Getbackers, Record of the Lodos Wars, and I did like Dominion: Tank Police, but I can't figure out why.

I get more concerned when people try to pull the giant sword concept on me in RL. But that has nothing to do with this topic. Off topic though: Yes, I've seen at least one case with a fellow who actually brought a 'real' giant sword to a convention about fifteen years ago, and attempted to fight someone with it when he was made fun of. Security hadn't made him give the weapon up, or even peace-tie it because they honestly thought it was a fake mock-up given how ludicrously big it was (About six and a half feet of blade, and about two feet wide). The fellow drew the sword, in a complicated maneuver that I don't clearly remember, and swung it with the intent to scare the person mocking him. He hit a balcony railing, the sword broke in three pieces, and sharp fragments of steel rained down on the convention-goers below. Luckily, nobody was hit. The fellow was arrested and taken away by the police. Never did hear what happened to him, or find out where he got the thing in the first place.

barawn
2007-02-28, 12:10 PM
I merely stated what I have been told time and time again by people who passionately hate the giant sword concept

Maybe we could talk about the giant tree trunk concept, then. Druid with Monkey Grip and Shillelagh, maybe with a magic item of Enlarge Person (or potion, cast by a wizard, etc.). 4d6+1 damage for -1 attack bonus in a one-handed weapon (that costs nothing), by level 2. For an entire combat. Not that bad.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-28, 12:14 PM
Er, Monkey Grip + Large Size = -3 AB.

Matthew
2007-02-28, 12:16 PM
Seriously, why bother with Monkey Grip? Why not just get a Potion of Enlarge Person or somesuch thing? You save on Feats and you get extra DB and no net AB penalty, as near as I can tell...

The flexability issue refers to in combat, by the way Barawn. Power Attack can be 'switched off' inbetween rounds, Monkey Grip cannot. It doesn't matter whether your character has a medium sized Great Sword on his horse or strapped to his back, it does not have the flexability of Power Attack.

Also, what kind of Low level critters have enough Hit Points to warrant such a weapon at Level 1 and 2? You would already be doing something like 5-15 points of Damage (assuming Strength 14) without Power Attack. With Power Attack, it would be 7-17 at Level 1 and 9-19 at Level 2.

barawn
2007-02-28, 12:20 PM
Er, Monkey Grip + Large Size = -3 AB.

Whoops, forgot the -1 for Large. So -2 (Shillelagh gives a +1). Still not that bad.

barawn
2007-02-28, 12:27 PM
Seriously, why bother with Monkey Grip? Why not just get a Potion of Enlarge Person or somesuch thing? You save on Feats and you get extra DB with no AB penalty, as near as I can tell...

See now, you forgot the AB penalty for being Large, too, as well as the AC penalty. So now I feel better.

The fact that it's a feat is what makes it suck, of course. If it was an effort modifier, and there were multiple feats in a feat chain, and maybe an expensive magic item that stacked with it as well... okay, at that point it's starting to get overpowered.


The flexability issue refers to in combat, by the way Barawn. Power Attack can be 'switched off' inbetween rounds, Monkey Grip cannot. It doesn't matter whether your character has a medium sized Great Sword on his horse or strapped to his back, it does not have the fleability of Power Attack.

Yes, I know that. But the entire point is that the flexibility that Power Attack offers isn't that useful inside of combat at low levels. It's relatively easy to get +2 to attack, through, oh, Magic Weapon and Bless or somesuch.

A defender's AC doesn't usually go up frequently in combat, so if your default opinion of the combat is "I can hit this guy even with the -2" then it's unlikely that you'll want to switch back to the smaller weapon normally.

The beginning of combat choice is pretty simple. One BBEG? Yup, go with the smaller weapon. Several monsters? Go with the big weapon.

Unfortunately, the benefit really taps out quickly after a few levels, since Power Attack scales.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-28, 12:29 PM
And that's really the problem. There shouldn't be feat trees, there should be feats that grow with time.

barawn
2007-02-28, 12:38 PM
Also, am I missing a reason why a mounted fighter charging with a Large lance and Monkey Grip wouldn't be better than Power Attack? 4d6 damage (min 4, max 24, average 14) versus 2d8+4 (min 6, max 20, average 13) for the same BAB penalty (+1, as it's a charge while Mounted).

(Of course, that's the only one where it's actually better that I can think of. And it's assuming that it works.)

If the lance is held two handed (can you do that?) then it's lower, obviously. (2d8+8)

barawn
2007-02-28, 12:42 PM
And that's really the problem. There shouldn't be feat trees, there should be feats that grow with time.

No argument from me there! I was just trying to give an example in the current setup.

Fhaolan
2007-02-28, 01:19 PM
Also, am I missing a reason why a mounted fighter charging with a Large lance and Monkey Grip wouldn't be better than Power Attack? 4d6 damage (min 4, max 24, average 14) versus 2d8+4 (min 6, max 20, average 13) for the same BAB penalty (+1, as it's a charge while Mounted).

(Of course, that's the only one where it's actually better that I can think of. And it's assuming that it works.)

If the lance is held two handed (can you do that?) then it's lower, obviously. (2d8+8)

That's... intriguing, actually.

In the campaign I run large-sized lances are somewhat more common than they are in normal D&D campaigns, because Centaur is one of the more common races and I have designed them with a lot of cultural weight behind heavily armored Centaur Knights. With Centaurs being large, humanoid knight-types can't use Centuar lances properly...

Interesting. I'm going to have to think about this one some more.

Rigeld2
2007-02-28, 01:22 PM
A defender's AC doesn't usually go up frequently in combat, so if your default opinion of the combat is "I can hit this guy even with the -2" then it's unlikely that you'll want to switch back to the smaller weapon normally.

The beginning of combat choice is pretty simple. One BBEG? Yup, go with the smaller weapon. Several monsters? Go with the big weapon.
You never have a BBEG + minions? Or lots of different type of mooks (some high AC, some low)?


Unfortunately, the benefit really taps out quickly after a few levels, since Power Attack scales.
qft

barawn
2007-02-28, 01:28 PM
You never have a BBEG + minions?

In that case, it would depend on how the fighter wanted to handle the battle, which he could decide fairly quickly. Chop down the minions first? Yeah, go with the Large weapon and chew through them like mad, and then have a support character get your new sword and hand it to you, drop the old one, and attack the BBEG.

Ditto with the other one, as well. In general, characters usually try to kill opponents one by one rather than whittling them all down at once, so really, the inability to switch only affects you a few times a battle, and it could be compensated for with creative teamwork.

(I'm not saying that it's not a drawback, mind you. It's just not an OMG Horrible! drawback).

Fax Celestis
2007-02-28, 01:32 PM
That's... intriguing, actually.

In the campaign I run large-sized lances are somewhat more common than they are in normal D&D campaigns, because Centaur is one of the more common races and I have designed them with a lot of cultural weight behind heavily armored Centaur Knights. With Centaurs being large, humanoid knight-types can't use Centuar lances properly...

Interesting. I'm going to have to think about this one some more.

That might actually work. Huh.

Matthew
2007-02-28, 02:29 PM
See now, you forgot the AB penalty for being Large, too, as well as the AC penalty. So now I feel better.

Actually, beacuse of the Strength Bonus, you'd end up with a net AB adjustment of +0. You would lose a point of AC, though.



Yes, I know that. But the entire point is that the flexibility that Power Attack offers isn't that useful inside of combat at low levels. It's relatively easy to get +2 to attack, through, oh, Magic Weapon and Bless or somesuch.

A defender's AC doesn't usually go up frequently in combat, so if your default opinion of the combat is "I can hit this guy even with the -2" then it's unlikely that you'll want to switch back to the smaller weapon normally.

The beginning of combat choice is pretty simple. One BBEG? Yup, go with the smaller weapon. Several monsters? Go with the big weapon.

Unfortunately, the benefit really taps out quickly after a few levels, since Power Attack scales.

Eh? It's pretty unlikely you are always (or even often) going to get the chance to decide which of your Large and Medium Great Swords you're going to want to use from encounter to encounter or have the time to fetch the required weapon from your horse, not to mention encounters with several enemies of varying types or enemies who choose to fight defensively, or whose AC you don't know or whatever. Even worse, at Level 1, who really has the money to spare for two Great Swords anyway?

Fighting Kobolds, Goblins, Orcs, Hobgoblins or pretty much anything with an appropriate challenge rating at Level 1, Monkey Grip offers little to no advantage. It might mean the difference between a potential and definite kill in combat with a Ghoul, though.

Monkey Grip has a very small degree of usefulness. Even at Levels 1 and 2, the numerical advantage relies on facing opponents with a large number of Hit Points and relatively low Armour Class. A Fighter 2 with a Strength 18 and a Great Sword can do 12-22 (Average 17) points of damage per hit. Does he really need Monkey Grip on top of that, for a Damage Range of 13-28 (Average 20.5)?
On the other hand, a Fighter 2 with Strength 13 might see it differently, Monkey Grip offers him a change in range from 7-17 (Average 12) to 8-23 (Average 15.5).

barawn
2007-02-28, 02:55 PM
Actually, beacuse of the Strength Bonus, you'd end up with a net AB adjustment of +0. You would lose a point of AC, though.

Ha! So I was right the first time after all!

As for the cost for a greatsword, hey, that's why I suggested switching to Druids swinging trees. Free clubs for everyone.


Monkey Grip has a very small degree of usefulness.

That I don't disagree with at all, although it wouldn't be that bad for an item (which frequently have very small degrees of usefulness as well). If there was a feat tree (or to make Fax happy, a feat that grows with time) based off of Monkey Grip, then it wouldn't be so bad.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-28, 03:03 PM
make Fax happy

Yes. Yes you should.:smallbiggrin:

ravenkith
2007-02-28, 03:03 PM
Monkey grip is only useful for non-half-giant or goliath psychic warriors.

When combined with expansion, the return on investment is significantly better, especially if you're a dedicated 2-handed style fighter.

Really, if you're going to take monkey-grip at all though, it's best left to later levels, because 1-5, a -2 penalty is too much to take for something that doesn't give you an additional attack.

Just my 2 cents.

The Valiant Turtle
2007-02-28, 09:16 PM
It's still a terrible feat, but I think JackMage has come the closest I've ever seen to a decent use for it. Large creatures wielding huge bastard swords or high-crit multiplier weapons. Looking at the weapon damage charts, larger than medium creatures can definitely get more mileage out of it.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-28, 09:30 PM
If feats evolved, it would solve a lot of problems.
They could have feat trees that rise the power better, like picking Weapon Focus for +1, and Greater Weapon Focus for +2, with a total of +3 (and Epic Weapon Focus giving +3, for a total of +6). Same with others feats.

Fawsto
2007-02-28, 10:04 PM
I found a way to give MG a little flash of usefulness. It is very, very, very, especific, but worths considering.

If you are, lets say, a Paladin, with the following stats: 15,14,13, 13, 10, 10. Or similar stats ( I used these ones in a previous campaing, everything was went alright). Well, lets assume that the paladin is one of the group's primary fighter, will be the secondary healer and likes the idea of casting spells in the future, along with that the palyer likes agile fighters (he wants his paladin to be a guy using nothing more than a medium armor and shield). Also he is begining with a fighter level to receive a bonus feat (plausible, isn't it?). What this guy can do?

Well, since his best atribute score is 15 (assuming human) and the second best is 14, let's apply the 14 to his Charisma, a 13 to his Wisdom and the other 13 to his constitution. Put the 15 in dexterity. Well that leaves him with a pair of 10s... What can we do? Obviously put one of them in Inteligence, but the other one goes to... Oh my god, strenght!? But he is still a fighter, and dexterity never increases damage! What can we do!? Here comes Monkey Grip (since a 10 str char CAN'T use Power attack) to whom he qualifies just by being a Paladin. (sry if this sound sarcastic, it should sound, how can I say, "Funny")

See this:

Str: 10 +0
Dex: 15 +2
Cons: 13 +1
Int: 10 +0
Wis: 13 +1
Cha: 14 +2

With this gear: Brunea (+4 ac bonus) + large shield (+2 ac bonus)
With these feats: Monkey Grip, Weapon Finesse, Use exotic weapon: Elven Blade.
With this weapon: Large Elven Blade: 2d6 18-20/x2 (I know it is expensive, but maybe the DM allowed it beacuse the character has a background on it. May happen.)

Total AC: 10 + 4 + 2 + 2 (18)
Total AB: 1 + 2 - 2 (1)
Total Damage: 2d6 or 4d6 if a crit is scored.

This is a very especific ocasion as I said. Again it is a SMALL flash of usefulness for this flavor feat. But it works. Doesn't make Monkey Grip better, but gives her some utility.

---------------------------------------------------------

I also think barawan found a better utility for it.

Thomas
2007-02-28, 10:57 PM
So Monkey Grip is useful if you intentionally build a really, really bad paladin? (Why would you have a Dex mod higher than +1 anyway? And what kind of a Paladin doesn't qualify for Divine Might?)

The weapon choice is pretty suboptimal, too. Increasing average damage from 4.5 to 7 is an increase of 2.5, which is a lot less than you could get with Monkey Grip - plus you're wasting a feat on EWP.

Zincorium
2007-02-28, 11:53 PM
I found a way to give MG a little flash of usefulness. It is very, very, very, especific, but worths considering.

If you are, lets say, a Paladin, with the following stats: 15,14,13, 13, 10, 10. Or similar stats ( I used these ones in a previous campaing, everything was went alright). Well, lets assume that the paladin is one of the group's primary fighter, will be the secondary healer and likes the idea of casting spells in the future, along with that the palyer likes agile fighters (he wants his paladin to be a guy using nothing more than a medium armor and shield). Also he is begining with a fighter level to receive a bonus feat (plausible, isn't it?). What this guy can do?

Well, since his best atribute score is 15 (assuming human) and the second best is 14, let's apply the 14 to his Charisma, a 13 to his Wisdom and the other 13 to his constitution. Put the 15 in dexterity. Well that leaves him with a pair of 10s... What can we do? Obviously put one of them in Inteligence, but the other one goes to... Oh my god, strenght!? But he is still a fighter, and dexterity never increases damage! What can we do!? Here comes Monkey Grip (since a 10 str char CAN'T use Power attack) to whom he qualifies just by being a Paladin. (sry if this sound sarcastic, it should sound, how can I say, "Funny")

See this:

Str: 10 +0
Dex: 15 +2
Cons: 13 +1
Int: 10 +0
Wis: 13 +1
Cha: 14 +2

With this gear: Brunea (+4 ac bonus) + large shield (+2 ac bonus)
With these feats: Monkey Grip, Weapon Finesse, Use exotic weapon: Elven Blade.
With this weapon: Large Elven Blade: 2d6 18-20/x2 (I know it is expensive, but maybe the DM allowed it beacuse the character has a background on it. May happen.)

Total AC: 10 + 4 + 2 + 2 (18)
Total AB: 1 + 2 - 2 (1)
Total Damage: 2d6 or 4d6 if a crit is scored.

This is a very especific ocasion as I said. Again it is a SMALL flash of usefulness for this flavor feat. But it works. Doesn't make Monkey Grip better, but gives her some utility.

---------------------------------------------------------

I also think barawan found a better utility for it.

First, what type of elven blade is it? There are three, thinblade, lightblade, and courtblade. I'm guessing thinblade because of the damage, but you might want to specify.

Second, unless you got the exotic weapon proficiency for free, you have one more feat than a human should at first level. You aren't a fighter, you're a badly built paladin who failed 'allocating stats 101', and you have to live with that.

Thirdly, with a final attack bonus of one, you are possibly the worst melee character I have seen. Heck, a lot of ranged characters will be slightly better. If you factor in the fact that you messed up on feats and are taking either a -4 (nonproficiency) or -2 (str instead of dex since you can't take weapon finesse), you have a negative bonus to attack.


I'm sorry, and I'm sure I'm coming off as harsh, but if this was meant as an example to show monkey grip being more useful than power attack, it's really not doing a good job of it. Also, what exactly is Brunea? I'm not familiar with the term, nor the reasons why it gives a +4 to armor class (and why aren't you wearing just chainmail?).

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-01, 12:20 AM
Quick 'N' Dirty fix:

Monkey Grip(name probably should be changed, but nobody would really want to wield smaller weapons than they can...):
Prerequisites(as listed), plus BAB+5
Benefit: For every 5 points of BAB you have, you may reduce the penalty for wielding a weapon wrongly sized for you by 1 point.

Voila. Instant scalability. It will even allow offhand oversized weapon wielding. Only possible drawback I can see would be someone aiming to use weapons 2 size categories larger(or smaller, for that matter. Maybe a Rogue wielding a Grig's dagger but appearing unarmed? May be moot if RAW never lets you get bigger than 1 size above/below) and using this to lower the penalties.

Thomas
2007-03-01, 12:28 AM
I still wouldn't take it. Being able to wield, at 20th level (in a full-BAB class), a Huge light weapon as a two-handed weapon with no penalties isn't that big of an advantage...

crazedloon
2007-03-01, 12:31 AM
Quick 'N' Dirty fix:

Monkey Grip(name probably should be changed, but nobody would really want to wield smaller weapons than they can...):
Prerequisites(as listed), plus BAB+5
Benefit: For every 5 points of BAB you have, you may reduce the penalty for wielding a weapon wrongly sized for you by 1 point.

Voila. Instant scalability. It will even allow offhand oversized weapon wielding. Only possible drawback I can see would be someone aiming to use weapons 2 size categories larger(or smaller, for that matter. Maybe a Rogue wielding a Grig's dagger but appearing unarmed? May be moot if RAW never lets you get bigger than 1 size above/below) and using this to lower the penalties.
yay but you havent reduced the effort to wield it so you can go max 3 sizes larger (that is pretty big size diffrence) but that is going light so have fun with a big dagger.

Fawsto
2007-03-01, 12:59 AM
I never said that that build was optimal neither I said It was to make it looks like MG was better than Power attack, come to think of it, at best, I said both feats were equivalents with Power attack wining. But I never said MG was better than PA.

C'mon? You never had to play a "more than 1 purpouse" character? :smalltongue:

There only should be dex based Fighters? I guess If someone want's to use a dex based Paladin he is allowed to. Even if it looks creepy... I personaly wouldn't play that character I showed. Even I know that he is suboptimal in all the 3 requisites he is meant to fill. I am saying, he is a totaly subpar character. The purpouse of the post was to state a situation where MG would be good to increase the damage for a character that can't buy Power attack.

Ohh... Yes, my mistake, I meant 2 fighter lvls... My bad... So his AB would be +2... Still wouldn't hit much things... As said, he is subpar in every aspect.

Hmm... I just couldn't remember wich Elven Blade I was using as example... It's really the 1d8 damage one. Thanks for especifieng it... I really couldn't remember it... :smallconfused:

---------------------------------------------------------

Btw... I wrote a way to fix MG in a few posts back, no one said nothing about it, so it musn't be good. Well, anyway, I tried.

Thomas
2007-03-01, 01:48 AM
A Dex-based Paladin is a really bad choice, because you don't get any advantage from it, and you already have "mad MAD", so to say - you need Cha and Wis and the usual assortment of melee abilities. You get absolutely no abilities that work well with Dex. A Paladin's fighting ability is pretty much dependent on getting Divine Might (with Power Attack as a prerequisite). If you take Snowflake Wardance, that helps a little, but you're still not getting anything to damage - a melee character with no bonus to damage is like a caster with a casting stat of 11, really.

A Dex-based straight Fighter isn't a very good option, either. Adding Swashbuckler and Rogue levels makes it more viable. (Or a PrC like Champion of Corellon Larethian. Actually, if you use that, you can have a decent Dex-based paladin, but you should still have Str 13 for Power Attack, since the elven courtblade is your best choice for a weapon.)

And how does your example Paladin have 2 Fighter levels? What the heck? Is it supposed to be a Paladin or a Fighter?

Zincorium
2007-03-01, 03:48 AM
I never said that that build was optimal neither I said It was to make it looks like MG was better than Power attack, come to think of it, at best, I said both feats were equivalents with Power attack wining. But I never said MG was better than PA.

C'mon? You never had to play a "more than 1 purpouse" character? :smalltongue:

There only should be dex based Fighters? I guess If someone want's to use a dex based Paladin he is allowed to. Even if it looks creepy... I personaly wouldn't play that character I showed. Even I know that he is suboptimal in all the 3 requisites he is meant to fill. I am saying, he is a totaly subpar character. The purpouse of the post was to state a situation where MG would be good to increase the damage for a character that can't buy Power attack.

Ohh... Yes, my mistake, I meant 2 fighter lvls... My bad... So his AB would be +2... Still wouldn't hit much things... As said, he is subpar in every aspect.

Hmm... I just couldn't remember wich Elven Blade I was using as example... It's really the 1d8 damage one. Thanks for especifieng it... I really couldn't remember it... :smallconfused:

---------------------------------------------------------

Btw... I wrote a way to fix MG in a few posts back, no one said nothing about it, so it musn't be good. Well, anyway, I tried.

I still want to know what Brunea is. :smallsmile:

In any case, the character is still much, much better off without monkey grip, even if they don't have power attack. The -2 to attack, when your attack is so low to begin with, hurts you far more than the additional 2.5 damage will help. I'd honestly go with a shortsword, improved shield bash, and a spiked light shield, with TWF when you get the feat for it, at which point you should be able to soak the -2 penalty. Use a spiked shield as your primary attack. That same shield with the Bashing enchantment from the DMG gives you a 1d8 damage weapon that's still light, and is also a +1 shield, for half the cost of a +2 weapon, and you can still attack with the short sword as an additional source of damage. You've got a dex of fifteen, so you meet the pre-req for TWF, and since most of the disadvantage of TWF is that it's bad for power attack and strength bonus damage (neither of which is an issue for you right now), all that's left is the feat heaviness of it all. And two levels of fighter will help offset that.

In any case, I figure if I'm going to beat your character down metaphorically I should at least offer some sort of option to replace the much-despised monkey grip, which hurts this character more than most.

On another note, can anyone figure out why you need a 13 str to wield a bastard sword one handed, but you can wield a large longsword in one hand even if you have a 3 str, per raw?

Roderick_BR
2007-03-01, 04:50 AM
I believe brunea is scale mail in Portuguese, or other similar language.

Leon
2007-03-01, 06:00 AM
Monkey Grip - A surefire way to get people going in discusion

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-01, 10:44 AM
Ahh, forgot about the "effort" part. What if I integrated that into my "fix"? Ie. Every BAB 5 is another +1(countering the -4) towards wrongly sized weaponry becoming useable, and the effort it takes to wield any weapon one size larger than one sized for you is equal to that of wielding a weapon sized for you?

barawn
2007-03-01, 10:48 AM
I still wouldn't take it. Being able to wield, at 20th level (in a full-BAB class), a Huge light weapon as a two-handed weapon with no penalties isn't that big of an advantage...

Yeah, that version of Monkey Grip isn't that good, anyway, as it never lets you wield a two-handed weapon a size category off, which is where you start getting silly damage.

Something like
Monkey Grip
Prereq: BAB +1
All effort modifiers to wield oversized weapons are reduced by one category. For every +5 in BAB a character possesses, the attack penalty for using an oversized weapon is reduced by 1. For a character with a BAB of +10 or higher, Monkey Grip reduces the effort modifier by two categories.

... except that might be a tad bit overpowered.

Fawsto
2007-03-01, 03:45 PM
Lol... My Bad... I used Portuguese instead of English in that part... Yes, Brunea means Scale Mail... Yes.. Dex based Paladins sucks, but they exist... Well... The point is: If you can't use Power attack and want to be brutal instead of precise, you can take MG... I am not working on this any longer, because I wouldn't use a dex based paladin being brutal rather than precise.

Hmmm... Tell me, when you score a critical hit, Power attack damage bonus gets multiplied? If it doesn't, pehaps the great advantage for MG is that with a crit the damage goes to the stratosphere with a proper weapon (those x4 scythes and picks). When I read at PHB I saw the phrase:

"Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage, such as that dealt by sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied when you score a critical hit".

I belive power attack damage bonus isnt multiplied either... This being said the possible damage dealt by a Critical scored by a Big Scythe is higher than the one dealt by a Scythe + Power attack. At the expense of less precision.

Normal Scythe: 2d4 + str bonus 3 + PA 5 scoring a critical: 8d4 + 17 (max 49 dmg). Damage increase: 5. BAB lost: 5
Big Scythe: 2d6 + str bonus 3 scoring a critical: 8d6 + 12 (max: 60 dmg). Damage increase: 16. BAB lost: 2

Normal Bastard Sword: 1d10 + 3 + 5 scoring a crit: 2d10 + 11 (max: 31 dmg). Dmage Increase: 5. BAB lost: 5.
Big Bastard Sword: 2d8 + 3 scoring a crit: 4d8 + 6 (max: 38 dmg). Damage Increase: 12. BAB lost: 2

Normal Lance: 1d8 + 3 + 5 scoring a crit: 3d8 + 14 (max 38 dmg). Dmage Increase: 5. BAB lost: 5.
Big Lance: 2d6 + 3 scoring a crit: 6d6 + 9 (max: 45 dmg). Damage Increase: 12. BAB lost: 2

Well. This is the possible advantage for MG feat... Doesn't make it better because it worths only when you score a crit with a really big weapon that uses more than 1 dice of damage. And it is meant to be used by critical focused characters.

This works well with that Elven Blade that deals 1d8 damage and has the crit range of a rapier, when used by a character that has the feats: Improved Critical, Power Critical (dunno if it is the right name, but I am talking about that feat that gives you a bonus of + 4 when confirming a critical hit) and Monkey Grip.

Still, It doesn't make the feat any better. Also because all 1d6 or lower weapons don't make any profit from this analisys.

Rigeld2
2007-03-01, 03:47 PM
Power Attack is multiplied. You only dont multiply extra dice.

Fawsto
2007-03-01, 04:00 PM
If that is the case, forget my post. :smalltongue: Although it says "Extra damage" not "Extra Dice"... o.O

Also, I remove the idea of finesse with a big weapon, also against the rules. :smallbiggrin:

barawn
2007-03-01, 04:40 PM
If that is the case, forget my post. :smalltongue: Although it says "Extra damage" not "Extra Dice"... o.O

It was changed in an errata.


Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

Rigeld2
2007-03-01, 08:44 PM
Also, I remove the idea of finesse with a big weapon, also against the rules. :smallbiggrin:
Not with the Elven Courtblade its not. That weapon is specifically finessable.

Turcano
2007-03-01, 08:53 PM
Not with the Elven Courtblade its not. That weapon is specifically finessable.

Yeah, but what's the point? As far as I can tell, there's no reason for a melee fighter to invest in one ability for attack and another for damage. Weapon Finesse is pretty much only good for builds that have a lot of Dex and less need for Str (like rogues).

Rigeld2
2007-03-01, 10:31 PM
Right... its nowhere near optimal, but its rules legal, which Fawsto suggested otherwise. Its also not a horrible idea for someone with no STR and a 15 DEX.

Rigeld2
2007-03-01, 10:39 PM
I would allow it, as I read Monkey Grip overriding that clause. (which I had glossed over, thanks for pointing it out so "politely")

edit: But I realize thats a house rule.

Fawsto
2007-03-01, 10:43 PM
Sorry for erasing previews post, here it is:

No, the point is taht you can't finesse a weapon that has a size category not meant for you. So no finesse with a Large Elven Blade unless you are a Large creature, capice?

Funny isn't it? First time my idea seems correct and I am the one to break it! xD

Reason for erasing: I had to quote this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD
Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

this refers to power attack or scoring criticals? Cause I am a ignorant bastard and I can't find out the conection with power attack there... If possible could you tell me where to find the errata?


Btw, Ridgeld didn't double post, I erased my previews post that stood within his 2 posts.

Rigeld2
2007-03-01, 10:50 PM
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

this refers to power attack or scoring criticals? Cause I am a ignorant bastard and I can't find out the conection with power attack there... If possible could you tell me where to find the errata?
The only thing not multiplied are extra damage dice. Is Power Attack extra damage dice?

Fawsto
2007-03-01, 11:03 PM
Again, my bad, I read it poorly...

Hmmm... Now I believe that a lvl 20 fighter with both Power Attack and ICExpertise fighting another enemy in melee combat can juice both AC and Damage and keep attacking till scoring a critical hit, that will mostly kill anything... Creepy... [Dire Pick + 20 str + critical = 4d8 + 20 + 80 (from power attack) + especial abilities... Wow]


Not saying that this would be a good combat tatic, just meant to say what would happen.

Rigeld2
2007-03-01, 11:08 PM
Youre correct, it could happen. But if you only hit on a 20, you have a .25% chance of actually critting. Definitely not a good combat tactic.

marjan
2007-03-01, 11:36 PM
Hmmm... Now I believe that a lvl 20 fighter with both Power Attack and ICExpertise fighting another enemy in melee combat can juice both AC and Damage and keep attacking till scoring a critical hit, that will mostly kill anything... Creepy... [Dire Pick + 20 str + critical = 4d8 + 20 + 80 (from power attack) + especial abilities... Wow]

It can have 5% chance of scoring critical if enemy is evil and the weapon has Blessed special ability.

Thomas
2007-03-02, 01:09 AM
Yeah, but what's the point? As far as I can tell, there's no reason for a melee fighter to invest in one ability for attack and another for damage. Weapon Finesse is pretty much only good for builds that have a lot of Dex and less need for Str (like rogues).

The only point of the elven courtblade, really, is the Champion of Corellon Larethian class. I like it. Raising Str, Dex, and Con isn't that demanding (you can easily afford items for all three while otherwise decking yourself out in the best gear), and with an extra ability (Dex) added to damage, as well as to AC (with mithral armor and the CoCL abilities, you get a lot of Dex into AC), you do become quite a damage-dealing machine. Essentially the CoCL is at least as good as the PA THW Fighter (although with slightly fewer feats, but if you focus on the damage-dealing PA feats - like Leap Attack - you'll be fine).

Incidentally, calculating critical damages and wowing at them isn't very useful. You should calculate average damage (factoring the critical threat range and the critical multiplier) and wow at that. I forget the flat percentage additions the various range/multiplier values give, though.

Turcano
2007-03-02, 01:18 AM
The only point of the elven courtblade, really, is the Champion of Corellon Larethian class. I like it. Raising Str, Dex, and Con isn't that demanding (you can easily afford items for all three while otherwise decking yourself out in the best gear), and with an extra ability (Dex) added to damage, as well as to AC (with mithral armor and the CoCL abilities, you get a lot of Dex into AC), you do become quite a damage-dealing machine. Essentially the CoCL is at least as good as the PA THW Fighter (although with slightly fewer feats, but if you focus on the damage-dealing PA feats - like Leap Attack - you'll be fine).

Woah. Okay, that's a major exception to the general rule. I'm honestly surprised that I don't see that prestige class more often.

Thomas
2007-03-02, 01:47 AM
It's a good (though not superb) class, from the same book as the elven courtblade.

The problem with elegant strike, of course, is that it's precision damage, and won't affect undead. You're still a Power Attacking THW Fighter, though...

Turcano
2007-03-02, 02:37 AM
From what I can tell, it's definitely worth a two-level dip if you meet the requirements, especially since it apparently gives you a bonus feat at first level into the bargain.

fallensavior
2007-03-02, 03:11 AM
Again, my bad, I read it poorly...

Hmmm... Now I believe that a lvl 20 fighter with both Power Attack and ICExpertise fighting another enemy in melee combat can juice both AC and Damage and keep attacking till scoring a critical hit, that will mostly kill anything... Creepy... [Dire Pick + 20 str + critical = 4d8 + 20 + 80 (from power attack) + especial abilities... Wow]


Not saying that this would be a good combat tatic, just meant to say what would happen.

Could be feasible by taking power crit 5 times for the same weapon (it does legally stack btw) completely offsetting your -20 power attack on the confirmation roll. Just wait for a 20, and then you would realiably confirm.

Thomas
2007-03-02, 04:56 AM
So that's an average damage of, what, like 118/20, or 5.9 per attack?

Wow, amazing!

... not.

Edit: Sorry, with improved critical, I guess it's like twice that, or 11.8.

Roderick_BR
2007-03-02, 06:23 AM
Incidentally, calculating critical damages and wowing at them isn't very useful. You should calculate average damage (factoring the critical threat range and the critical multiplier) and wow at that. I forget the flat percentage additions the various range/multiplier values give, though.
Agreed, but if you play a barbarian with Power Critical, it becomes a bit better.
Ah, if you have 1 feat available for a exotic weapon: Goliath Greathammer. Two handed, Base damage 2d6, Critical 20/x4. Like a scythe on steroids. If you get Power Critical and Monkey Grip, that would be worth. Maybe just use a normal axe/greathammer, and leave the large one for when you need to crit a BBeG. Carry one of those "Magic Knight Rayaerth" carrying gloves to store it.

I'm seriously thinking about getting a large goliath greathammer anyway. Or go with a large warmace and a tower shield (total of -5 to attacks! lol!) but that would be just to annoy the heck out of my DM.
Maybe just a "regular" warmace with a tower shield. A total of -3 to attack (my exacly strenght bonus) to gain 1d12 damage plus +4 AC.

Or I could stop messing and go with a large shield/bastard sword or a common great sword, but where's the fun in that? hehehe

Rigeld2
2007-03-02, 06:56 AM
Maybe just use a normal axe/greathammer, and leave the large one for when you need to crit a BBeG.
So... where are you pulling the 5% chance to crit, plus the confirm roll from?

IE Big numbers are fun, but lets leave them to the rarity they are.

Roderick_BR
2007-03-02, 10:00 AM
So... where are you pulling the 5% chance to crit, plus the confirm roll from?

IE Big numbers are fun, but lets leave them to the rarity they are.

As I said, works great with Power Critical. Automatic critical threat. For the extra bonus to confirm... yeah, though... I'll think of something after lunch.

Indon
2007-03-02, 10:30 AM
It can have 5% chance of scoring critical if enemy is evil and the weapon has Blessed special ability.

Ooooh...

Makes me want to make a Power Attack/Expertise character with a blessed scythe now. Can you use Power Attack and... what's that feat that diverts AC instead of to-hit... Shock Trooper... at the same time?

Roderick_BR
2007-03-02, 10:38 AM
Ooooh...

Makes me want to make a Power Attack/Expertise character with a blessed scythe now. Can you use Power Attack and... what's that feat that diverts AC instead of to-hit... Shock Trooper... at the same time?

Yeah! I was thinking about Shock Trooper ;)
And forget scythe. The base damage is 3d8. With greathhammer, the base damage is 2d6, with the same critical multiplier.
Unless you want to use a keen effect, of course. But then again, if you have Power Critical, you don't need to worry with a good critical threat, at least once a day.

Rabiesbunny
2007-03-02, 11:20 AM
Whoo, I hate monkey grip. We've got a Dragon Disciple in our group who uses it for his Size Large mercurial Greatsword. He did 80-something damage. At level four. >>; Monkey Grip is insane...

Helgraf
2007-03-02, 11:22 AM
How'd he get into DD at level 4?

Fax Celestis
2007-03-02, 11:30 AM
Whoo, I hate monkey grip. We've got a Dragon Disciple in our group who uses it for his Size Large mercurial Greatsword. He did 80-something damage. At level four. >>; Monkey Grip is insane...

Let's see...

Mercurial: 3.0. Broken then, not updated.
Dragon Disciple: not...exactly a powerful melee class.
DD @ L4: not possible. Skill reqs and all that.
Monkey Grip: Not "all that and a bag of chips". He'd be doing better damage with Power Attack.

Indon
2007-03-02, 11:45 AM
Yeah! I was thinking about Shock Trooper ;)
And forget scythe. The base damage is 3d8. With greathhammer, the base damage is 2d6, with the same critical multiplier.
Unless you want to use a keen effect, of course. But then again, if you have Power Critical, you don't need to worry with a good critical threat, at least once a day.

Greathammer has a x4 critical multiplier? What book is this in?

marjan
2007-03-02, 12:03 PM
Greathammer has a x4 critical multiplier? What book is this in?

Races of Stone.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-02, 12:19 PM
Whoo, I hate monkey grip. We've got a Dragon Disciple in our group who uses it for his Size Large mercurial Greatsword. He did 80-something damage. At level four. >>; Monkey Grip is insane...

Yes. If you ignore the actual rules of the game, such as using Mercurial Greatswords and having a Dragon Disciple at ECL 4. then I'm sure even Monkey Grip could be made useful.

The problem here, however, isn't Monkey Grip (and he'd be doing more damage just by using Power Attack, as has been pointed out).

Thomas
2007-03-02, 02:02 PM
As I said, works great with Power Critical. Automatic critical threat. For the extra bonus to confirm... yeah, though... I'll think of something after lunch.

Wait, what? How does Power Critical make for an automatic critical threat? It doesn't affect the threat range - it adds +4 to your confirmation roll, doesn't it?

And the difference between 1d8 and 2d6 is 2.5 points, which is pretty negligible.

Roderick_BR
2007-03-02, 02:45 PM
Wait, what? How does Power Critical make for an automatic critical threat? It doesn't affect the threat range - it adds +4 to your confirmation roll, doesn't it?

And the difference between 1d8 and 2d6 is 2.5 points, which is pretty negligible.
If it was changed from 3.0 to 3.5 (didn't finish reading all the new books) then forget that plan. I thought that would be a bit powerful with x4 damage weapons anyway.
And I'm not comparing 1d8 weapons with 2d6 weapons. I'm comparing 2d6 weapons with 3d6 weapons, diference of 3.5

Rigeld2
2007-03-02, 03:04 PM
As I said, works great with Power Critical.
Once per day. Yay.

Roderick_BR
2007-03-02, 03:10 PM
Once per day. Yay.
To end a fight with the BBeG in one round :p
Not that Power Critical is all that good. Only once a day with one chosen weapon.

Thomas
2007-03-02, 03:38 PM
If it was changed from 3.0 to 3.5 (didn't finish reading all the new books) then forget that plan. I thought that would be a bit powerful with x4 damage weapons anyway.
And I'm not comparing 1d8 weapons with 2d6 weapons. I'm comparing 2d6 weapons with 3d6 weapons, diference of 3.5

Well, that's the standard (inferior) Monkey Grip difference, at least.

And changed how? I doubt it's ever increased critical range! That'd be insane (and make Improved Critical pointless). Power Critical increases your odds to confirm when you've already rolled a threat.

Roderick_BR
2007-03-02, 03:49 PM
I'll have to check the Complete Warrior. Since it has an updated Frenzied Berzerker and Exotic Weapon Master, it must have an updated Power Attack.
It works like this: Choose a weapon (greataxe for example). You need to have Improved Critical (chosen weapon, greataxe in this case), and Power Attack.
Once a day, when you are going to attack, you declare you are using Power Attack. If you miss, you lose that day's usage. If you hit, your attack is an automatic threat. If you can hit an enemy with a 15, and roll a 15 or more, you get a threat, even with your greataxe criticals with only 19 normally.
Then you need to confirm the critical as normal.
You can pick one Power Attack for each weapon. You can't use it to gain additional uses for one weapon.

Edit: Oops, you need Power Attack, Improved Critical, and Rage ability

Thomas
2007-03-02, 03:56 PM
I presume you mostly mean "Power Critical" through that, but yes, that's an entirely different feat. Power Critical in 3.5 (from Complete Warrior) adds +4 to rolls to confirm a threat.

barawn
2007-03-02, 04:08 PM
I still say Monkey Grip's not bad in certain ridiculously limited roles, at low levels - a mounted warrior-type with a lance, and some sort of weird druid that enjoys swinging magical trees at people. The boost that it gives them at low levels might be worth the feat. Might. For those two examples, and probably not much more.

Rabiesbunny
2007-03-03, 10:27 AM
I didn't say he was Dragon Disciple THEN... >>; There are certain 3.0 things we keep in our campaign, like Hierophant, Exotic weapons, and the like. Point is, Monkey Grip can be devestating when used properly.

Edit: ...and um, I meant Hexblade, not Duskblade. Whoop.

Tengu
2007-03-03, 10:51 AM
What's the damage of a medium mercurial sword? 2d6? Monkey gripping a large one was +1d6 damage for -2 to attack then. Not worth it.

Monkey grip is worth only if you are huge or bigger, or when charging on a horse (as stated before).

Rigeld2
2007-03-03, 12:45 PM
Point is, Monkey Grip can be devestating when used properly.
Not in 3.5 it cant.

And ^ a Medium Mercurial Greatsword is 2d6 with a massive crit iirc.